2189 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Smithx,

I just added this to the free shipping section.

It is a 250mg capsule, of which 33mg is Astragaloside IV, COA is below:
http://revgenetics.c...OA_07072008.pdf

At this time we recommend only 1 capsule a day.

Cheers
A

[Anthony_Loera]

This study was emailed to me recently,

I think it is somewhat relevant to Astral Fruit and Telomere health:
===========================================

> “Proteins induced by Telomere Dysfunction and DNA Damage Represent Biomarkers of Human
> Aging and Disease,”
Published on-line before print August 11, 2008, doi: 10.1073/pnas.0801457105
PNAS, Vol. 105, No. 32, pp. 11299-304 (August 12, 2008).

1. Hong Jiang a,b,
2. Eric Schiffer c,
3. Zhangfa Song a,
4. Jianwei Wang a,
5. Petra Zürbig c,
6. Kathrin Thedieck d,
7. Suzette Moes d,
8. Heike Bantel e,
9. Nadja Saal e,
10. Justyna Jantos c,
11. Meiken Brecht f,
12. Paul Jenö d,
13. Michael N. Hall d,
14. Klaus Hager f,
15. Michael P. Manns e,
16. Hartmut Hecker g,
17. Arnold Ganser h,
18. Konstanze Döhner i,
19. Andrzej Bartke j,
20. Christoph Meissner k,
21. Harald Mischak c,
22. Zhenyu Ju a,l, and
23. K. Lenhard Rudolph a,m

Author Affiliations:

1. a. Institute of Molecular Medicine and Max Planck Research Group on Stem Cell Aging and
2. i. Department of Internal Medicine III, University of Ulm, 89081 Ulm, GERMANY;
3. c. Mosaiques Diagnostics and Therapeutics AG, Mellendorfer Strasse 7-9, 30625 Hannover, GERMAN;
4. d. Biochemistry, Biozentrum, University of Basel, Klingelbergstrasse 50/70, 4056 Basel, SWITZERLAND;
5. Departments of eGastroenterology, Hepatology, and Endocrinology,
6. g. Biostatistics, and
7. h. Hematology, Hemostasis, Oncology, and Stem Cell Transplantation, Hannover Medical School, 30625 Hannover, GERMANY;
8. f. Department of Geriatric Medicine, Henriettenstiftung, D-30171 Hannover, GERMANY;
9. j. Physiology and Internal Medicine, Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, IL 62794; USA
10. k. Department of Forensic Medicine, University Hospital Schleswig Holstein, Kahlhorststrasse 31-35, 23562 Lübeck, GERMANY; and
11. l. Institute of Laboratory Animal Sciences and Max-Planck-Partner Group on Stem Cell Aging,
Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, Beijing 100864, CHINA

Edited by Titia de Lange, The Rockefeller University, New York, NY, and approved June 11, 2008 (received for review February 17, 2008)

Abstract:

Telomere dysfunction limits the proliferative capacity of human cells by activation of DNA
damage responses, inducing senescence or apoptosis. In humans, telomere shortening occurs in the
vast majority of tissues during aging, and telomere shortening is accelerated in chronic diseases
that increase the rate of cell turnover. Yet, the functional role of telomere dysfunction and
DNA damage in human aging and diseases remains under debate. Here, we identified marker
proteins (i.e., CRAMP, Stathmin, EF-1alpha, and Chitinase) that are secreted from telomere-dysfunctional
bone-marrow cells of late generation telomerase knockout mice (G4mTerc -/-). The expression levels
of these proteins increase in blood and in various tissues of aging G4mTerc -/- mice but not in aging
mice with long telomere reserves. Orthologs of these proteins are up-regulated in late-passage
pre-senescent human fibroblasts and in early passage human cells in response to gamma-irradiation.
The study shows that the expression level of these marker proteins increases in the blood plasma of
aging humans and shows a further increase in geriatric patients with aging-associated diseases.
Moreover, there was a significant increase in the expression of the biomarkers in the blood
plasma of patients with chronic diseases that are associated with increased rates of cell turnover
and telomere shortening, such as Cirrhosis and Myelo Dysplastic Syndromes (MDS). Analysis of
blinded test samples validated the effectiveness of the biomarkers to discriminate between young
and old, and between disease groups (MDS, Cirrhosis) and healthy controls. These results
support the concept that telomere dysfunction and DNA damage are interconnected pathways
that are activated during human aging and disease.

Key Words: * senescence, * EF-1alpha, * personalized therapy, * stem cells, * CRAMP

Footnotes:

m. To whom correspondence should be addressed at:
Department of Molecular Medicine and Max Planck Research Group on Stem Cell Aging,
University of Ulm, Albert-Einstein-Allee 11, 89081 Ulm, GERMANY.
E-mail: lenhard.rudolph@uni-ulm.de

Author contributions: H.J. and K.L.R. designed research; H.J., E.S., Z.S., J.W., P.Z., K.T.,
S.M., N.S., J.J., M.B., P.J., M.N.H., K.H., M.P.M., A.G., A.B., C.M., H.M., and Z.J. performed
research; H.J., E.S., H.B., and K.D. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; H.J., E.S., Z.S., J.W.,
P.Z., K.T., S.M., and H.H. analyzed data; and H.J., E.S., Z.S., and K.L.R. wrote the paper.

b. Present address: Kidney Disease Centre, The First Affiliated Hospital, College of Medicine,
Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310003, CHINA.

Conflict of interest statement: K.L.R. has recently submitted a patent application for the discovered
biomarkers that are described in this work.

This article is a PNAS Direct Submission.

This article contains supporting information on-line at www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/0801457105/DCSupplemental.

[Joe Fox]

Is anyone other than myself interested in the potential hair regeneration benefits of telomerase signaling?

[smithx]

Thanks Anthony,

A couple of other questions:

- The Astragaloside IV is 13%, what's most of the other 87%?
- What type of extraction was done? Did you check for solvent traces?
- The lead looks a little high - are you going to be able to do anything to reduce that in future batches?

Also, I tried adding the free shipping version of the product to my cart, and it came up with an extra $25 charge. I haven't seen that before. What's the deal with that?

I just added this to the free shipping section.

It is a 250mg capsule, of which 33mg is Astragaloside IV, COA is below:
http://revgenetics.c...OA_07072008.pdf

At this time we recommend only 1 capsule a day.

[Anthony_Loera]

- The Astragaloside IV is 13%, what's most of the other 87%?

Answer: This is an extract that was done from astragalus, the other 87% is what you would normally see in other Astragalus supplements, we didn't add fillers if that is your concern.

- What type of extraction was done? Did you check for solvent traces?


Answer: Ethanol / Water

- The lead looks a little high - are you going to be able to do anything to reduce that in future batches?


Answer:
Our current suggested serving size is one 250mg capsule, which comes out to... 0.09 ppm, well below safety limits by FDA, Consumer Lab, or any supplement manufacturer. Lead is not an issue. Indeed, even if you took 1 full gram you would still not reach the FDA daily supplement limit for lead.

Having said that, much like we did with the high purity resveratrol, we are looking for a higher purity at this time for people who like to take much more than this amount. (I personally think a high 100mg limit would be enough though...)

Aren't you guys glad we provide this information? Don't you wish you could have it every time you went into your local drug store or vitamin shop for all the nifty things you buy? I am taking this, so yes... I need to know what is actually in this stuff.

If we didn't test, you guys could of ended up with powder from another supplier that swore up and down their stuff was good and that it had a 20% Astragaloside IV purity, (when all they were really selling us was regular Astragalus...) see attached

Cheers
A

Attached Files

•  Rejected_astragalusiv_08042008.pdf   16.43KB   579 downloads

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 25 August 2008 - 03:40 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Just an FYI.

You can use the "IMMORTAL" code on this as well, if you decide to you would like to help TheFirstImmortal in his fight against cancer.

A

[smithx]

If we didn't test, you guys could of ended up with powder from another supplier that swore up and down their stuff was good and that it had a 20% Astragaloside IV purity, (when all they were really selling us was regular Astragalus...) see attached

Thanks, and yes, it's great that you do the tests. That's why I buy from you.

Now what about the extra $25 charge that was added to the cart for the auto-ship? I still can't figure that out.

[stephen_b]

Here's a rat study (PMID 18622899) using astragaloside IV "to examine the effects of astragaloside IV on proliferation, apoptosis and phenotypic modulation of [vascular smooth muscle cell] under high D-glucose (25 mM)", with largely positive results. I found it interesting that it induced apoptosis in vascular smooth muscle cells under high glucose conditions. The study also concluded "astragaloside IV could hinder the process of pathological vascular remodeling in diabetic patients".

That study's abstract said "Astragaloside IV is one of the main active ingredients of Radix astragali". It may also be useful to look up studies of the Chinese herb Radix astragali to get insight into astragaloside IV. PMID 18309905 found that radix astragali (RA) "alleviates muscle atrophy under simulated weightlessness conditions".

This study is interesting (PMID 16965679). The researchers mixed (SQJK), "a complex preparation, consisting of effective components extracted from radix astragali, ginseng, curcuma, etc. It has been demonstrated to be able to decrease tumor volume, increase life quality and prolong survival time in clinic application." It found "altered telomerase activity in A549 cells was examined by a telomerase activity detection kit", and "the telomerase activity of A549 was inhibited after 48 h of SQJK treatment". A549 is a human lung adenocarcinoma epithelial cell line, so it's nice to see telomerase inhibition. Note that radix astragali was part of an herbal blend, so it's not possible to say which effects were from which component or combination of components.

Stephen

Edited by stephen_b, 25 August 2008 - 06:05 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

If we didn't test, you guys could of ended up with powder from another supplier that swore up and down their stuff was good and that it had a 20% Astragaloside IV purity, (when all they were really selling us was regular Astragalus...) see attached

Thanks, and yes, it's great that you do the tests. That's why I buy from you.

Now what about the extra $25 charge that was added to the cart for the auto-ship? I still can't figure that out.

Sorry Smithx,

that was completely my fault, and It has been corrected now.

Thanks for the heads up!

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 25 August 2008 - 10:54 PM.

[rubegoldberg]

Answer:
Our current suggested serving size is one 250mg capsule, which comes out to... 0.09 ppm, well below safety limits by FDA, Consumer Lab, or any supplement manufacturer. Lead is not an issue. Indeed, even if you took 1 full gram you would still not reach the FDA daily supplement limit for lead.

Having said that, much like we did with the high purity resveratrol, we are looking for a higher purity at this time for people who like to take much more than this amount. (I personally think a high 100mg limit would be enough though...)

Aren't you guys glad we provide this information? Don't you wish you could have it every time you went into your local drug store or vitamin shop for all the nifty things you buy? I am taking this, so yes... I need to know what is actually in this stuff.

If we didn't test, you guys could of ended up with powder from another supplier that swore up and down their stuff was good and that it had a 20% Astragaloside IV purity, (when all they were really selling us was regular Astragalus...) see attached

Cheers
A

everyone appreciates that you provide this information. however, the COA indicates 0.37 ppm Pb or 0.37 µg/g. so in 250mg there is 0.09 µg. perhaps that is what you meant. I don't know if 0.09 µg is a significant amount or not, but it seems quite small. it's Pb, not Po, afterall

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi rubegoldberg,

thanks, I usually find it easier using ppm for a gram when talking about FDA limits on supplements. Thanks for the clarity on this, as people may find it easier understanding µg than ppm.

A

[stephen_b]

Article in New Scientist about a new determination of TERT structure, a substructure of telomerase.

Interesting quotes:

"Now that they know what the structure of the catalytic subunit is, they can design drugs that can bind to the protein subunit and either inhibit its activity for anti-cancer treatment, or promote its activity as anti-ageing therapy," says Stephen Neidle, from The School of Pharmacy, University of London, UK.

Aubrey de Grey of the Methuselah Foundation says: "If we had a really cast-iron therapy against all cancers, it might well be a good idea to stimulate telomerase, with a drug, for example, that might have widespread anti-ageing effects."

Stephen

Edited by stephen_b, 03 September 2008 - 03:25 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

There are two thoughts that stand out about telamorase:

1- the major focus for most is on inhibiting telomerase in cancer cells to stop people from dying of this disease.
2- the lesser focus of using telomerase in healthy cells to increase lifespan, by increasing the number of times a cell can replicate.

What Astral Fruit (Astragaloside IV) does, is to transiently turn on the hTERT gene to extend the number of times the cell can replicate. This is exactly what TA Sciences does as well according to them using their TA-65 formulation. The gene is not permanently turned on. One would simply stop taking Astral Fruit to turn off the hTERT gene.

Although I respect Aubrey de Grey, I have spoken to people that are simply more knowledgeable than him in this area, and they have convinced me that it simply does not immortalize cells.

Part of this was addressed below:

[1] Telomerase is not an oncogene. By Calvin B Harley.
Geron Corporation, Menlo Park, California, CA 94025, USA
http://www.nature.co...l/1205076a.html


And yes, I take Astral Fruit daily.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 03 September 2008 - 03:33 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Here's an older tidbit:

From 1999
http://www.scienceda...90104073956.htm

Immortalizing Enzyme Does Not Make Human Cells Cancerous

ScienceDaily (Jan. 4, 1999) — DALLAS - December 29, 1998 - Scientists at UT Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas have shown that human cells grown in the laboratory and immortalized by the introduction of the enzyme telomerase are not transformed into cancer cells, perhaps clearing the way for safe, future medical applications.

Drs. Jerry Shay and Woodring Wright, UT Southwestern professors of cell biology and neuroscience, and their colleagues will report in the January 1999 issue of Nature Genetics that cells immortalized with telomerase, now more than 220 generations past their normal life span of 75 to 80 divisions, remain young and vigorous.

The cells exhibited none of the characteristics associated with cancer cells, such as chromosome instability, serum-independent growth, loss of contact inhibition and loss of cell-cycle checkpoint controls. In an accompanying article, collaborators at the Geron Corporation and academic colleagues demonstrate that the cells with introduced telomerase do not produce tumors in mice.

The fear that telomerase may cause cancer resulted because telomerase activity is a marker of cancer cells. While most normal cells, which have finite life spans, do not contain telomerase, more than 90 percent of cancer cells, which divide indefinitely, do.

"We clearly demonstrate that the expression of telomerase in cultured human cells does not cause cancer progression," said Wright, thereby reducing concerns that telomerase might act as an oncogene, a gene that can induce a cell to become malignant. "The abnormalities seen in cancer cells are due to other mutations; telomerase merely allows the cells to keep dividing."

Cheers

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 05 September 2008 - 02:23 PM.

[stephen_b]

Thanks Anthony for that find. Interesting and a good sign that they used the phrase "immortalized with telomerase".

From the line "cells with introduced telomerase do not produce tumors in mice", I'm assuming that they introduced cells with extended telomeres back into the source mice, and these cells did not produce tumors. Well and good, but surely they've done lifespan studies on mice since the January 1999 date of the article?

Stephen

[stephen_b]

Here's another study supporting the claim that telomerase doesn't initiate cancer (PMID 17954610):

Here, we demonstrate that telomerase reintroduction in mice with critically short telomeres is sufficient to correct epidermal HF stem cell defects. Additionally, telomerase reintroduction into these mice results in a normal life span by preventing degenerative pathologies in the absence of increased tumorigenesis.

So it restored normal lifespan in mice with short telomeres. This result would seem to support the hypothesis that shortening telomere length is just one of the causes of aging.

I also had the misconception that telomere length wasn't a problem until it actually allowed the DNA to unwind, but it appears that short telomeres lead to tissue damage and oxidative stress.

Stephen

[stephen_b]

A couple of other studies that I haven't seen discussed yet, "Telomerase activity coevolves with body mass not lifespan", PMID http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/17173545:

In multicellular organisms, telomerase is required to maintain telomere length in the germline but is dispensable in the soma. Mice, for example, express telomerase in somatic and germline tissues, while humans express telomerase almost exclusively in the germline. As a result, when telomeres of human somatic cells reach a critical length the cells enter irreversible growth arrest called replicative senescence. Replicative senescence is believed to be an anticancer mechanism that limits cell proliferation. The difference between mice and humans led to the hypothesis that repression of telomerase in somatic cells has evolved as a tumor-suppressor adaptation in large, long-lived organisms. We tested whether regulation of telomerase activity coevolves with lifespan and body mass using comparative analysis of 15 rodent species with highly diverse lifespans and body masses. Here we show that telomerase activity does not coevolve with lifespan but instead coevolves with body mass: larger rodents repress telomerase activity in somatic cells. These results suggest that large body mass presents a greater risk of cancer than long lifespan, and large animals evolve repression of telomerase activity to mitigate that risk.

and "Coevolution of telomerase activity and body mass in mammals: From mice to beavers", PMID 18387652, from the some of the same people.

One question is whether replicative senescence is actually a cancer preventative mechanism, and is this true for all conditions.

Stephen

[Anthony_Loera]

That was interesting from an evolutionary point in mice...

here is another interesting tidbit:

Telomerase activity is maintained throughout the lifespan of long-lived birds:
http://www.sciencedi...8a0e6c4370245f1

Telomerase is an enzyme capable of elongating telomeres, the caps at the ends of chromosomes associated with aging, lifespan and survival. We investigated tissue-level variation in telomerase across different ages in four bird species that vary widely in their life history. Telomerase activity in bone marrow may be associated with the rate of erythrocyte telomere shortening; birds with lower rates of telomere shortening and longer lifespans have higher bone marrow telomerase activity throughout life. Telomerase activity in all of the species appears to be tightly correlated with the proliferative potential of specific organs, and it is also highest in the hatchling age-class, when the proliferative demands of most organs are the highest. This study offers an alternative view to the commonly held hypothesis that telomerase activity is down-regulated in all post-mitotic somatic tissues in long-lived organisms as a tumor-protective mechanism. This highlights the need for more comparative analyses of telomerase, lifespan and the incidence of tumor formation.

A

[wydell]

Anthony, will you be posting your before and after Astral Fruit telomere test results ? It will be interesting to see if there are positive benefits.
If Astragaloside IV works, you are certainly way ahead of the rest of the industry. I hope others report.

If I see positive results from folks, I could be interested in making a purchase in the future. It's still too early to jump in for me at this point until I see animal and \ or human studies or reported results. It's not really a cost issue. It's more of an issue of adding yet another supplement to my regimen, whether there are possible negative effects, and whether there are true benefits. So I will wait and see what folks report.


Are there any rodent studies where Astragaloside IV was given to healty rodents?

I think it is good that you are a pioneer here.

We have just finished encapsulating it and bottling it, but have not placed it on the website at this time.

I think it will be on the website sometime in the coming week.

Folks thinking about measuring their Telomere length and comparing it at a later time should talk to folks at RepeatDiagnostics.com. They are not associated with us, but I have been pointed to them by folks who "Oprah" originally interviewed regarding telemore testing. I will be doing this test as well in the upcoming week.

If it all goes well, we may ask to see if we can get a discount for our customers.

A

Edited by wydell, 06 September 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi,

I will post telomere tests every 6 months. I also am looking to post 2 separate tests from "control" subjects that will not be taking Astral Fruit.

Although not completely scientific, it will provide some type of reference since the subjects are family. Namely my wife and son's telomere results.

I am just waiting on my results before submitting their samples to the canadian lab.

cheers
A

Anthony, will you be posting your before and after Astral Fruit telomere test results ? It will be interesting to see if there are positive benefits.
If Astragaloside IV works, you are certainly way ahead of the rest of the industry. I hope others report.

If I see positive results from folks, I could be interested in making a purchase in the future. It's still too early to jump in for me at this point until I see animal and \ or human studies or reported results. It's not really a cost issue. It's more of an issue of adding yet another supplement to my regimen, whether there are possible negative effects, and whether there are true benefits. So I will wait and see what folks report.


Are there any rodent studies where Astragaloside IV was given to healty rodents?

I think it is good that you are a pioneer here.

We have just finished encapsulating it and bottling it, but have not placed it on the website at this time.

I think it will be on the website sometime in the coming week.

Folks thinking about measuring their Telomere length and comparing it at a later time should talk to folks at RepeatDiagnostics.com. They are not associated with us, but I have been pointed to them by folks who "Oprah" originally interviewed regarding telemore testing. I will be doing this test as well in the upcoming week.

If it all goes well, we may ask to see if we can get a discount for our customers.

A

[PWAIN]

Anthony,

What makes you think that it is Astragaloside IV in the Paton protocol? I note that on the TA web page:

http://tasciences.co...n_pharma_01.pdf

They compare 4 sample commercial Astragalus products 2 of which claim to have Astragaloside IV. Surely with the sensitivity of the measuring, they would at least get a tiny measurable amount of Astragaloside IV?

In this thread:

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=24114

There is discussion of cycloastragenol, what is this and is there anything that would make you think that this may be the TA65? I note that Astragaloside IV appears to have been tested before and no indication of life extension - is the same true for cycloastragenol?

Not to knock Astragaloside IV, but it is essential that we are using the right product, Astragaloside IV may be a part of the protocol but they talk about 5mg so 33mg, 50mg and 150mg of Astragaloside IV doesn't seem to fit in.

Just trying to do some detective work here and find out just exactly what TA65 is.

[PWAIN]

I also note this comment at:

http://greenwoodstor.../longevity.html

Since TA Sciences claims TA-65 is "one single, potent molecule" from astragalus extract, it is probably cycloastragenol, and not astragaloside IV, which requires 50 to 100 mg per day doses to be effective without excipients to improve bioavailability.

Which leads me to think that cycloastragenol needs to be taken if we want to emulate the Patton Protocol. Is this stuff available and at what cost? They refer to it as: cycloastragenol 6-β-D-glycopyranoside and cycloastragenol 3-β-D-xylopyranoside.

He also makes this comment:

and emphasizes a procedure for converting astragaloside IV chemically to cycloastragenol

So this may be a step that can be done in a lab?

Also I note this comment:

Also, note that the fibroblasts of the mouselike dunnart double 170 times, but the animal only lives 3 years, no doubt because the other mechanisms of cellular senescence kill it before replicative senescence does [Zs. Nagy, p.8]. Similarly, it is surprising that the mouse has telomeres > 25,000 base pairs long; typically dying not of replicative senescence, but of mitochondrial failure.

This may partly explain some failures in extending life span.

Edited by resvhead, 08 September 2008 - 03:01 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi resvhead,

Geron's patent is interesting, and we think it shows what is used in TA Sciences. Having said that, we are not trying to duplicate that formulation, or produce "TA-65". We are however trying to provide one of the best natural herbal activators available.

It is my understanding that cycloastragenol and astragaloside IV activate telomerase at the same concentrations.
Now, It appears that bioavailability (as with resveratrol) is an issue. We aren't providing 98%-99% purity at this time, as we want to provide Astral Fruit with a tested amount of Astragaloside IV, and an undetermined amount of other Astragalus astragalosides, (and other astragalus items) that seem to naturally have and increased bioavailability over a high purity product.

About cycloastragenol:
.. we have one simple issue with cycloastragenol

1- It is not as readily available as Astragaloside IV


About TA Sciences:
Many astragalus extracts don't appear to have astragaloside iv, and those tested by TA didn't have more than 1mg. Again, we are not trying to copy TA Sciences. We do however know that 5mg of (TA-65) maybe used by TA Sciences, and because of bioavailability we believe of astragaloside iv (33mg at a minimum) may be what is needed to compensate for it. Some folks on this thread may consider 100mg a day, and we may make a product for these folks.

Of course, if we increase bioavailability through other means, we will provide it as well. The important aspect of this is that... cycloastragenol and astragaloside IV activate telomerase at the same concentrations.

Cheers
A

[Phoebus]

my understanding is that there are compounds in the whole astragalus extract that increase the bioavailability of the astragaloside IV. thus dont you think it would make sense to take a quality whole astragalus extract along with the astral fruit?

personally i believe that most herbal extracts on the market are very, very weak and its best to just make your own. but thats a whole other subject.

[PWAIN]

Hi resvhead,

Geron's patent is interesting, and we think it shows what is used in TA Sciences. Having said that, we are not trying to duplicate that formulation, or produce "TA-65". We are however trying to provide one of the best natural herbal activators available.

It is my understanding that cycloastragenol and astragaloside IV activate telomerase at the same concentrations.
Now, It appears that bioavailability (as with resveratrol) is an issue. We aren't providing 98%-99% purity at this time, as we want to provide Astral Fruit with a tested amount of Astragaloside IV, and an undetermined amount of other Astragalus astragalosides, (and other astragalus items) that seem to naturally have and increased bioavailability over a high purity product.

About cycloastragenol:
.. we have one simple issue with cycloastragenol

1- It is not as readily available as Astragaloside IV


About TA Sciences:
Many astragalus extracts don't appear to have astragaloside iv, and those tested by TA didn't have more than 1mg. Again, we are not trying to copy TA Sciences. We do however know that 5mg of (TA-65) maybe used by TA Sciences, and because of bioavailability we believe of astragaloside iv (33mg at a minimum) may be what is needed to compensate for it. Some folks on this thread may consider 100mg a day, and we may make a product for these folks.

Of course, if we increase bioavailability through other means, we will provide it as well. The important aspect of this is that... cycloastragenol and astragaloside IV activate telomerase at the same concentrations.

Cheers
A

Given that it is claimed that it is a relativly simple process to convert Astrogaloside IV to cycloastragenol and you then only need one twentieth doseage to match the Astrogaloside IV effects, it still may prove more cost effetive. A one year supply of cycloastragenol would be 900mg ie less than a gram (2 x 90 days at 5mg). Surely at those sort of quantities, the conversion of a few tens of grams of Astrogaloside IV would be economical? I even saw a comment that 50mg of Astrogaloside IV is equivalent to 1mg of cycloastragenol.

I just feel like this is the equivalent of going with large doses of Silimarin instead of resveratrol because it is easier to source - it was in the earlier days. I realise that you don't want to breech any patents or anything like that but cycloastragenol is a naturally occuring product hence the secrecy and the whole "protocol" thing. I don't see any reason someone can't produce it and sell it as long as they don't claim it is TA65 or part of the protocol.

Anyway, fingers crossed that someone comes out with a cycloastragenol product soon. I doubt I could find a manufacturer that will sell me a gram or two (like with Resveratrol) - pm me if you know different.

[Anthony_Loera]

Resvhead,

Cycloastragenol is being sought.
Having said that, at $30 for 33mg of Astral Fruit, it is simply not expensive compared to TA Sciences $25,000 for TA-65.

Even if you were to buy 3 bottles of astral fruit to get 100mg (that, according to Geron is equivalent to 5mg of Cycloastragenol), that is still a far cry from $25,000. In the end a 100mg capsule that runs $3, or a 5mg capsule that runs $3, will still provide you the activation you are looking for, if you want the higher dosages.

Again, we are introducing something that is not on the market, and will continue to work to provide what you are looking for Resvhead. If you happen to find a supplier for Cycloastragenol, let me know.

However, because of the law of supple/demand and the additional step apparently needed to convert high purity Astragaloside iv to Cycloastragenol (and the high price of high purity), I don't think this will be done within the next 6 months, maybe even the next 12 months. Astragaloside IV has a high cost, and what is needed is likely a high purity 98%-99% astragaloside iv for this process. Let me think about it some more...

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 09 September 2008 - 01:46 PM.

[meatwad]

I will be purchasing a few bottles soon, any 'subjective' effects from using for 1 month?

[smithx]

TA Sciences had an assay done which included a product claimed to contain 1mg of astrogaloside iv. The assay showed no TA-65 present.

http://www.tascience...n_pharma_01.pdf

This implies fairly strongly that astrogaloside iv is not TA-65.

The other possibility of course is that the product in question simply did not contain the specified 1mg, but this seems unlikely since the assay was supposedly sensitive to 1ppm, and the 1mg was probably in no more than 1g of material (ie: 2 capsules was the serving size, and herb capsules larger than 500mg are quite rare), so if TA-65 was astrogaloside iv, it would have been detected even if there was 500 times less than the quantity promised by the manufacturer.

So if TA-65 is not astrogaloside iv, what evidence do we have that astrogaloside iv actually provides any benefits?

[Anthony_Loera]

Smithx,

can you read the beginning of this thread? The answers are in there, along with descriptions and public information regarding Geron.

then there is always info here as well:
http://greenwoodstor.../longevity.html

Astragaloside IV is a telomerase activator, in the same amounts as cycloastragenol. However because of bioavailability, 5mg of cycloastragenol appears to be equal to 100mg Astragaloside IV. Then we have the 3 month on/off schedule if you plan to use this higher dose, and copy TA sciences... or use a smaller dose, with telomerase inhibitors such as resveratrol (at least 3 hours later) that we believe will give you good results as well without dealing with the 3 month on/off schedule.

Again, I will post my telomere tests every 6 months for discussion.

Cheers
A

[ampaynz1]

Smithx : Tests have been done on both astragaloside iv and cycloastragenol. See pics below for structure and for partial test result.
I took about 8 grams of astragaloside iv 98% from November to Feb. I found an articles that showed it underwent and paracellular route of absorption. Also, absorption was increased by simply ingesting some calcium pills while taking the supplement. I took it close to 80 days straight at 100mg daily. What impressed me the most is not getting ill so far since the megadose. It might be coincidence, but maybe not. After I get my act together I do plan on taking a lower dose of 33mg. The main thing that happened to me while on it was this callused hard sore growth repaired itself completely. It was underneath my skin and made this area of epithelium thickened and a little sore. I tried cutting it off one time, but this only made it look better. It still grew back thick. I then placed acid on it. This permanently thinned it down, but it felt sore still. I had it from 2002 to 2008. So it was something I was used to. I no longer have this on my posterior tip of my index finger. It is smooth and looks great. Coincidence? I tell everybody it wasn't and believe that. I once calculated taking astragaloside iv at 100mg for 4 weeks straight each year might be enough to stop telomere loss in some cells. I took about 50mg and mixed it in vaseline intensive care of about 1/16 cup. I rubbed this on a burn I had and it healed a lot faster. I was quite impressed. My goal is to rub this on two white hairs I have on my chest. I'm 31 years old. I have never ever had a white hair turn dark and wondering if this is possible. Finally, something I wrote a while back to my dad. : "In 10 years you will lose 500 more base pairs of telomeres. To go from 68 to 25 years old you will need an additional 2150 base pairs added to telomere cap. Wow! So you will need 2650 base pair added to your telomere cap in 10 years. 2650 / 10 = 265 base pair elongation needed per year. This is the minimum needed for complete rejuvenation. Astragaloside IV taken for 26 weeks in a pulsatile fashion will extend by 510 base pairs. 2650 / 510 = 5.19607 . Then multiply 5.19607 x 26 = 135.1 weeks needed at 50mg.
Over 10 years there is 52 weeks x 10 = 520 weeks available.
Now take 135.1 weeks / 10 = 13.51 weeks per year for 10 years.
So you will need to take astragaloside IV for 13.51 weeks at 50mg for 10 years and then after 10 years much of your DNA will be rejuvenated to a 25 year old state."
Of course actual lab test would be needed from http://RepeatDiagnostics.com for $350-650.
Finally, the problem I have with astragaloside iv is that it causes a feeling of nervousness after ingestion, but it will reside after time. I believe this is because it is a vasodilator of arterioles and even medium sized arteries. This is one reason I would rather take cycloastragenol.
Also, if the absorption increased in the gut, then less should be taken in theory. Interested in increasing absorption, then read this article:
Absorption enhancement study of astragaloside IV based on its transport mechanism in caco-2 cells.
European journal of drug metabolism and pharmacokinetics.
1: Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 2006 Jan-Mar;31(1):5-10
Type: Serials / Magazines / Newspapers
Language: English
Publisher: [Paris, Edifor]
ISSN: 0378-7966
OCLC: 2181264
Drug Metabolism and Pharmacokinetic Research Center, China Pharmaceutical University, Nanjing, People's Republic of China.
The purpose of this study was to investigate the transport characteristics and mechanisms for discovering the possible causes of the low bioavailability of astragaloside IV and to develop an absorption enhancement strategy. Caco-2 cells used as the in vitro model. Results showed a low permeability coefficient (3.7 x 10(-8)cm/s for transport from the AP to BL direction), which remained unchanged throughout the concentration range studied, indicating that the transport of astragaloside IV was predominantly via a passive route. The AP to BL transport of astragaloside IV was found to be highly sensitive to the extracellular Ca2+ concentration, which suggested that its transport may be via a paracellular route. Both chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can increase the permeation efficiency of astragaloside IV. This study indicated that astragaloside IV having a low fraction dose absorbed in humans mainly due to its poor intestinal permeability, high molecular weight, low lipophilicity as well as its paracelluar transport may directly result in the low permeability through its passive transport. Meanwhile, chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can be used as absorption enhancers based on its transport mechanism.
PMID: 16715776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




For a bigger pic of test results go to:
http://img360.images...14125740la5.jpg