2189 replies to this topic

[tunt01]

tomnook:

It's good that you took precautions to get bloodwork done. I'm not sure James Green's protocol is exactly comparable to what I did, because I think my dosage might have been materially higher. That might explain the noticeable reaction I had vs. you or someone else on a lower dose. Other than that, everyone can obviously react different to different substances.

I have seen one study that is somewhat disconcerting re: Prostate health and this type of molecule. I will send you a private email about it, because it is a confidential report. I am also in a higher risk category for prostate cancer due to an underlying inflammation etiology. I suggest you take omega 3 fish oil and other anti-inflammatory substances. Curcumin, omega-3s (Flax), ellagic acid (pomegrante) are good ways to fight prostate cancer risk and mitigate inflammation.

I cannot comment on the Testosterone/SBHG and lymphocyte issues, as I am not knowledgeable enough to make an informed judgement.

I've not put my finger on it entirely, but I think the nexus of the risk issue with Astragaloside IV/TA-65/etc. lies in how it transforms a cell to functioning in a more youthful state and where it may upregulate higher risk activities that the body would normally be trying to inhibit for protective (anti-cancer) reasons (be it oxidative stress/inflammation that damages the prostate). Astragaloside seems to upregulate PPAR-gamma and stimulation of this can have pro-inflammatory results (though the data is conflicting). I guess the way I think about it from a skeptical standpoint is that: We know a person who is anorexic/not eating well actually does inflammatory damage to their body when they go out and exercise. The seemingly positive activity of exercise becomes a negative, because you are creating stress on the body that isn't being managed properly (through nutrition/tissue repair). Is the same sort of thing occurring with this substance whereby you are improving the overall functionality of the cells in some areas, but not completely mitigating the inflammatory damage in others? It's very hard to say.

Again, I'm not 100% sure what is going on with this molecule and based on the the information put forth by the people at Geron/TA Sciences I'm not convinced they really know with 100% certainty either.

As a side note:

There is a lot of chatter on these boards about the Obama administration potentially regulating supplements and how that would be a negative for the industry. In my opinion, we clearly have a case where government intervention is welcomed. I would hope that if the government does regulate supplements that they make a beeline for the offices of TA Sciences and carefully go through what these people are doing. They are obviously motivated by money (that's no problem, everyone should be a capitalist at heart), but over history we have seen bad actors skirt the facts in favor of a quick buck to the detriment of others. In this regard, I think everyone on these forums should be cheering for government regulation of supplements, because it helps protect us from people operating on the fringe, like TA Sciences. It gives us confirmation or warning of what practices are happening, rather than letting us run around like guinea pigs and risking our own health.

time will tell

-pro

Edited by prophets, 03 April 2009 - 04:20 PM.

[tunt01]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

If you have ever taken niacin to the point of experiencing flush, I would say my feeling from the Astral Fruit I am taking is akin to the tingling/itching sensation of the flush minus the actual reddening of the skin.

I am currently taking 750 mg of nicotinic acid in 3 intervals at 250 mg each per day. I take them with Vitamin D (1000 mg) in my inbetween meal segments. I sometimes take Arginine (500-1000 mg) with these two supplements, before I am going running.

I do get a mild rush from nicotinic acid, but it was not nearly as intense as my experience with Astragaloside.

I normally have very dry skin/tired look. The following day after Astragaloside, I think I had a noticeable improvement in skin tone/flush look the next day.

regards

pro

[VespeneGas]

I am currently taking 750 mg of nicotinic acid in 3 intervals at 250 mg each per day. I take them with Vitamin D (1000 mg) in my inbetween meal segments. I sometimes take Arginine (500-1000 mg) with these two supplements, before I am going running.

Are you concerned that you won't absorb much vitamin D between meals due to its fat solubility?

[tomnook]

tomnook:
I have seen one study that is somewhat disconcerting re: Prostate health and this type of molecule. I will send you a private email about it, because it is a confidential report. I am also in a higher risk category for prostate cancer due to an underlying inflammation etiology. I suggest you take omega 3 fish oil and other anti-inflammatory substances. Curcumin, omega-3s (Flax), ellagic acid (pomegrante) are good ways to fight prostate cancer risk and mitigate inflammation.

Thanks Pro - I'm already supplementing plenty of Omega-3, curcumin and pomegranate (daily juice and supplements) and I eat flaxseed every day with my morning oatmeal. Having now read the report you mention I'll probably have a repeat psa test next week with a follow up three months later.

[tunt01]

I am currently taking 750 mg of nicotinic acid in 3 intervals at 250 mg each per day. I take them with Vitamin D (1000 mg) in my inbetween meal segments. I sometimes take Arginine (500-1000 mg) with these two supplements, before I am going running.

Are you concerned that you won't absorb much vitamin D between meals due to its fat solubility?

it's a valid point, i forgot to mention I am also taking this:

http://www.jarrow.co....php?prodid=337 with meals in addition to any individual pure Vitamin D tablets. I take 3-4000 vitamin D a day, maybe i should keep it strictly all on meals. I'm not sure, and haven't looked into it thoroughly enough.

Normally, I take all pills/supplements with meals to optimize absorption. Sometimes before I go run, I have an orange or some kind of sugar source (shake w/ blueberries, rasberries, etc.), and take the pure vitamin D (1000 UI), nicotinic acid (250 mg) and maybe a bit of arginine.

Edited by prophets, 03 April 2009 - 08:32 PM.

[VespeneGas]

I usually take all my fat-soluble supplements with a fatty meal to make sure I'm not throwing my money away. Conveniently, most fat soluble supplements have long half-lives (vitamin D's is 15 days) meaning any meal will do.

Also, If that's your only source of magnesium, you might look into adding another form. Magnesium oxide is notoriously poorly absorbed.

Magnesium bioavailability from magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide
J. S. Lindberg, M. M. Zobitz, J. R. Poindexter and C. Y. Pak
Center for Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, University of Texas, Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235.

This study compared magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate with respect to in vitro solubility and in vivo gastrointestinal absorbability. The solubility of 25 mmol magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide was examined in vitro in solutions containing varying amounts of hydrochloric acid (0-24.2 mEq) in 300 ml distilled water intended to mimic achlorhydric to peak acid secretory states. Magnesium oxide was virtually insoluble in water and only 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml). Magnesium citrate had high solubility even in water (55%) and was substantially more soluble than magnesium oxide in all states of acid secretion. Reprecipitation of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide did not occur when the filtrates from the solubility studies were titrated to pH 6 and 7 to stimulate pancreatic bicarbonate secretion. Approximately 65% of magnesium citrate was complexed as soluble magnesium citrate, whereas magnesium complexation was not present in the magnesium oxide system. Magnesium absorption from the two magnesium salts was measured in vivo in normal volunteers by assessing the rise in urinary magnesium following oral magnesium load. The increment in urinary magnesium following magnesium citrate load (25 mmol) was significantly higher than that obtained from magnesium oxide load (during 4 hours post-load, 0.22 vs 0.006 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05; during second 2 hours post-load, 0.035 vs 0.008 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05). Thus, magnesium citrate was more soluble and bioavailable than magnesium oxide.

Bioavailability of US commercial magnesium preparations.
Firoz M, Graber M. Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Northport, NY 11768, USA.

Magnesium deficiency is seen with some frequency in the outpatient setting and requires oral repletion or maintenance therapy. The purpose of this study was to measure the bioavailability of four commercially-available preparations of magnesium, and to test the claim that organic salts are more easily absorbed. Bioavailability was measured as the increment of urinary maginesium excretion in normal volunteers given approximately 21 mEq/day of the test preparations. Results indicated relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide (fractional absorption 4 per cent) but significantly higher and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate. We conclude that there is relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide, but greater and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, lactate, and aspartate. Inorganic magnesium salts, depending on the preparation, may have bioavailability equivalent to organic magnesium salts.

PMID: 11794633 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Also, a belated welcome to the boards

[tunt01]

thanks much for your thoughts and the welcome.

i look at supplements/vitamins as augmenting a diet or assisting w/ the treatment of an underlying pathology, not the source of all nutrition. i eat spinach, kale, and swiss chard daily, so i think i get enough of magnesium.

i sit in an office all day w/ no sunlight so, i take vitamin D and focus on bone health for this problem.

[bdelfin]

I am currently taking 750 mg of nicotinic acid in 3 intervals at 250 mg each per day. I take them with Vitamin D (1000 mg) in my inbetween meal segments. I sometimes take Arginine (500-1000 mg) with these two supplements, before I am going running.

Are you concerned that you won't absorb much vitamin D between meals due to its fat solubility?

Every lipophilic supplement I've checked into, including Vitamin D, can be absorbed normally with 3-5 grams of fat (I believe it's 3 for Vitamin D). So to avoid any fat-soluble supplements being interfered with by fiber in meals (anything 5 grams of fiber or up is considered a "high-fiber meal" for the purposes of taking fat-soluble supplements), I take them two hours after a meal. I add up the rough grams of fat in the supplements, then add 1 gram capsules of olive oil (Swanson's brand is quite cheap, especially when there's 2-for-1 specials) until I get five grams of fat.

Problem solved. And the extra oleic acid should only help the heart, no? (Just don't forget to account for this in your fat budget if you're counting calories...)

Edited by bdelfin, 07 April 2009 - 04:52 AM.

[tunt01]

Every lipophilic supplement I've checked into, including Vitamin D, can be absorbed normally with 3-5 grams of fat (I believe it's 3 for Vitamin D). So to avoid any fat-soluble supplements being interfered with by fiber in meals (anything 5 grams of fiber or up is considered a "high-fiber meal" for the purposes of taking fat-soluble supplements), I take them two hours after a meal. I add up the rough grams of fat in the supplements, then add 1 gram capsules of olive oil (Swanson's brand is quite cheap, especially when there's 2-for-1 specials) until I get five grams of fat.

Problem solved. And the extra oleic acid should only help the heart, no? (Just don't forget to account for this in your fat budget if you're counting calories...)

what's the exact math you are doing to get to 1 gram of olive oil? what amount of vitamin D multiplied by what?

[mikeinnaples]

Hehehe...

Unglued, I think you are on to something there! Subsidize my telomere testing by going to carnivals... sounds like fun.

I do think need to cycle res and astral fruit, if only simply for my curiosity within the next 6 months. Specially with the telomere lengths that were not measured before.

A

Anthony, would you mind posting supplements you plan on cycling on/off and at what frequency when you figure it all out?

[Anthony_Loera]

Hehehe...

Unglued, I think you are on to something there! Subsidize my telomere testing by going to carnivals... sounds like fun.

I do think need to cycle res and astral fruit, if only simply for my curiosity within the next 6 months. Specially with the telomere lengths that were not measured before.

A

Anthony, would you mind posting supplements you plan on cycling on/off and at what frequency when you figure it all out?

Hi Mike,

I believe I will be increasing the Astral Fruit intake for the next six months to about 1mg per pound.
1 week on / 1 week off

On my off weeks I will be taking resveratrol instead of Astral Fruit.
The amount will be equivalent to about 2 grams of regular resveratrol a day.

I understand that there is a possibility that the lower amount of Astral Fruit I was taking may have been slowing down telomere length which many consider a good thing. But the main objective is to increase it, at least for the next six months. I think most people's expectations is to see a test, that shows some telomere length extension in an individual.

That is what I am aiming for.

thanks

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 08 April 2009 - 02:20 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Hehehe...

Unglued, I think you are on to something there! Subsidize my telomere testing by going to carnivals... sounds like fun.

I do think need to cycle res and astral fruit, if only simply for my curiosity within the next 6 months. Specially with the telomere lengths that were not measured before.

A

Anthony, would you mind posting supplements you plan on cycling on/off and at what frequency when you figure it all out?

Hi Mike,

I believe I will be increasing the Astral Fruit intake for the next six months to about 1mg per pound.
1 week on / 1 week off

On my off weeks I will be taking resveratrol instead of Astral Fruit.
The amount will be equivalent to about 2 grams of regular resveratrol a day.

I understand that there is a possibility that the lower amount of Astral Fruit I was taking may have been slowing down telomere length which many consider a good thing. But the main objective is to increase it, at least for the next six months. I think most people's expectations is to see a test, that shows some telomere length extension in an individual.

That is what I am aiming for.

thanks

A

Thanks for the input. What I am trying currently is as follows:


Week 1 -

No Omega 3's, No resveratrol, no melatonin, and 1 33mg cap in the AM and one in the PM.

Week 2 -

No astragaloside IV, 2g Resveratrol - Alchohol -> Lethicin in a single dose, 4g Omega 3's (split through the day), Nightly mix of TR and IR Melatonin


* Both weeks I will continue taking all my other sups as as far as I can tell they shouldn't interfere



Aside from the monetary concerns of increasing doseage to match, I am not sure I would be able to even handle 6-7 caps a day to go up to 1mg per pound. The flush-like effect I get from 66mg is pretty pronounced. Are you experiencing anything at higher dosages?

[Anthony_Loera]

I actually like the method you are taking it.

However, I am not seeing the 'flush' you mention Mike. I find that interesting as I haven't heard of that happening. Having said that, I haen't started just yet. I am trying to get some blood work done before I begin.

How much do you weigh, If you don't mind telling us?

thanks
A

[mikeinnaples]

I actually like the method you are taking it.

However, I am not seeing the 'flush' you mention Mike. I find that interesting as I haven't heard of that happening. Having said that, I haen't started just yet. I am trying to get some blood work done before I begin.

How much do you weigh, If you don't mind telling us?

thanks
A

Well the flush isn't so much of the redness you get from niacin, I am using that to describe other sensations like the tingly/itching sensation. Of course I have a wide range of allergies, and it is spring .....so it could simply be that, though the timing was a bit of a coincidence.

James ...I am a gym junkie of sorts so a bit on the heavier side. I am 6'1 208lbs, 34yrs old.

[HOTCells]

I actually like the method you are taking it.

However, I am not seeing the 'flush' you mention Mike. I find that interesting as I haven't heard of that happening. Having said that, I haen't started just yet. I am trying to get some blood work done before I begin.

How much do you weigh, If you don't mind telling us?

thanks
A

Well the flush isn't so much of the redness you get from niacin, I am using that to describe other sensations like the tingly/itching sensation. Of course I have a wide range of allergies, and it is spring .....so it could simply be that, though the timing was a bit of a coincidence.

James ...I am a gym junkie of sorts so a bit on the heavier side. I am 6'1 208lbs, 34yrs old.

Mike, are you taking your 66mgs with Chitosan and Vit. C or has that combination been thrown out as a viable way for increasing absorption of astragaloside IV?

[bdelfin]

I am currently taking 750 mg of nicotinic acid in 3 intervals at 250 mg each per day. I take them with Vitamin D (1000 mg) in my inbetween meal segments. I sometimes take Arginine (500-1000 mg) with these two supplements, before I am going running.

Are you concerned that you won't absorb much vitamin D between meals due to its fat solubility?

Every lipophilic supplement I've checked into, including Vitamin D, can be absorbed normally with 3-5 grams of fat (I believe it's 3 for Vitamin D). So to avoid any fat-soluble supplements being interfered with by fiber in meals (anything 5 grams of fiber or up is considered a "high-fiber meal" for the purposes of taking fat-soluble supplements), I take them two hours after a meal. I add up the rough grams of fat in the supplements, then add 1 gram capsules of olive oil (Swanson's brand is quite cheap, especially when there's 2-for-1 specials) until I get five grams of fat.

Problem solved. And the extra oleic acid should only help the heart, no? (Just don't forget to account for this in your fat budget if you're counting calories...)

I'm afraid there's been some confusion. You want five grams of fat to digest any amount of Vitamin D or other lipophilic supplement. There's no calculation involved. Experiments examining the effects of fat on the absorption of Vitamin D, lutein, etc. show that it takes three to five grams of fat to ensure proper absorption, regardless of the dose tested.

[GreenPower]

Hi,

I'm rather new to ImmInst and this group, but have been reading this thread for a couple of months. In order to give something back I thought I would share some data which might be useful to someone.

I've been been working as an IT-consultant in a stressful environment for many years, the last four or five of them very stressful. I therefore took two DHEA-S/Cortisol tests some time back (about half a year apart). The first was very bad, with a cortisol-time-curve indicating levels too close to indicate addison's disease for comfort. After this test I started to take Astragalus (standardised Astragalus Root Extract (0.5% glucosides, 70% polysaccharides) 225 mg, Raw Astragalus Root Powder 250 mg). First once a day, but soon three times a day (morning, lunch, evening). I also took Ginkgo biloba L. 100 mg (24 mg ginkgoflavonidglycosides , 6 mg terpenoids) twice daily.
When retaking the DHEA-S/Cortisol test about half a a year later it was, if not good, at least measurable better. The amount of stress experienced during the period was unchanged.
During this period I noticed the following subjective effects

+ Much better concentration,
+ Better short and medium term memory,
+ Shorter time of recovery after physical training,
- Shorter time between urination,
- A tendency to addiction to the Astragalus.

For a time I then changed to an ordinary root powder version of Astragalus (470mg), which I used until five weeks ago. The subjective effect was it did not give as positive effects as the standardised version, but was efficient in lessening the dose without feeling an addiction. At the end I only took it once a day.

So. Exactly one month ago I completely stopped taking Astragalus and Gingko Biloba and made a ordinary physical exam which included ordinary tests such as ASAT, ALAT, PSA, etc. At the same time I also took the so called "detailed Flow-FISH procedure test" for telomere lengths which I sent to a certain lab i Vancouver. I will use these tests as baseline for (at least) two three-month-periods of Astral Fruit (33mg three times a day), combined with the use of Astragaloside IV Cream (from "the other company" which sells this kind of stuff, to be used in intervals with some weeks between each jar). I started the treatment with these products immediately after the tests were taken.

The results from the physical exam were good, with Cholesterol as the one exception. The results from the Flow-FISH test were mixed. Out of six markers, five were slightly better than the Median Telomere Length for my age. The marker for CD57-pos (which I translate to mean Natural Killer Cells) was not at all good, being at a the Median Telomere Length of a 90-year old. Which might have been good if I were not 37 at the time of the test. From the latter test I draw the conclusions that

a) stress might not have had an impact on the age of my lymphocytes, granulocytes, B-cells and T-cells, or
b) I might have had high telomere lengths on these cells from the beginning, making them seem to have aged less than my NK's, or
c) Astragalus (and/or Gingko Biloba) actually might have had a protecting or even a extending effect on the telomeres of these types of cells, and that
d) neither Astragalus or Gingko Biloba showed any effect on protecting / rejuvating my Natural Killer cells during an extended period of great stress - and that stress had a negative impact on my NK's.

I really look forward to see if this treatment will have any effect on my NK's. Because the Flow-FISH test was quite expensive (getting FedEx to send it from North Europe to Vancouver within 48 hours also cost some money...) I don't yet know if I will take the follow-up test after six or twelve months.

Initial and subjective effects of Astral Fruit and the skin cream after one month of use are as follows

+ Concentration took a boost to levels much higher than when using standardised Astragalus Root Extract,
+ Even shorter time of recovery after physical training compared to when using standardised Astragalus Root Extract,
+ Hair, which has been gone for a decade, has started to grow back at the forefront of my scalp, at this stage it's only colorless down - but it looks promising,

Four things should be added here
1. I did unfortunately not take a Testosterone test before the treatment,
2. During the last decade I've used Minoxidil in periods, which to some extent might have preserved the ability of the hair follicles to regain some of their ability to grow hair at my age,
3. According to a gene test I have "Greatly decreased odds of male pattern baldness", which might have given my hair follicles a better odds of regaining some functionality,
4. The regrown hair is on the absolute forefront of the scalp and temples and disappeared before I was like 20. Since then I've lost no hair, even if it's been turning grey.

+ The skin cream definitely has some effect on the skin texture, making it feel smooth and decreasing wrinkles, however, it contains lots of stuff besides A IV, and it might be these
other compounds giving these effects,
+/- Short and medium term memory largely unchanged from when using standardised Astragalus Root Extract,
+/- A tendency to be very tired at the evenings and very rested in the mornings, making me ponder if my levels of Melatonin might have increased.
If this is the case, it might be that Astragaloside/Astragalus may have some sort of effect on the body's handling of Serotonin.
I also notice that this effect is larger when applying skin cream, which makes be believe the skin cream has some capacity for bioavailability,
- Time between urination, unchanged from when using standardised Astragalus Root Extract,

I have not yet tested if there's a tendency to addiction.

Edited by GreenPower, 17 April 2009 - 09:27 PM.

[Roses]

Can we hypothesize that the overproduction of the Natual Killer cells by astragalus reduced the telomeres?

The results from the Flow-FISH test were mixed. Out of six markers, five were slightly better than the Median Telomere Length for my age. The marker for CD57-pos (which I translate to mean Natural Killer Cells) was not at all good, being at a the Median Telomere Length of a 90-year old. Which might have been good if I were not 37 at the time of the test. From the latter test I draw the conclusions that

a) stress might not have had an impact on the age of my lymphocytes, granulocytes, B-cells and T-cells, or
b) I might have had high telomere lengths on these cells from the beginning, making them seem to have aged less than my NK's, or
c) Astragalus (and/or Gingko Biloba) actually might have had a protecting or even a extending effect on the telomeres of these types of cells, and that
d) neither Astragalus or Gingko Biloba showed any effect on protecting / rejuvating my Natural Killer cells during an extended period of great stress - and that stress had a negative impact on my NK's.

[waldemar]

Can we hypothesize that the overproduction of the Natual Killer cells by astragalus reduced the telomeres?

IMHO we don't have enough data for a serious hypothesis, or even an educated guess. This seems like "One guy had a car accident while on Aspirin. My hypothesis is that Aspirin causes car accidents.".

[Roses]

Granted.
If he does the telomere length measurements in another 5 months while on astragalus, and the telomere length increased..this hypothesis can be discounted.
Else, if it had accelerated the telomere shortening of the NK cells, then we cannot discount this possibility

Can we hypothesize that the overproduction of the Natual Killer cells by astragalus reduced the telomeres?

IMHO we don't have enough data for a serious hypothesis, or even an educated guess. This seems like "One guy had a car accident while on Aspirin. My hypothesis is that Aspirin causes car accidents.".

[GreenPower]

Can we hypothesize that the overproduction of the Natual Killer cells by astragalus reduced the telomeres?

The results from the Flow-FISH test were mixed. Out of six markers, five were slightly better than the Median Telomere Length for my age. The marker for CD57-pos (which I translate to mean Natural Killer Cells) was not at all good, being at a the Median Telomere Length of a 90-year old. Which might have been good if I were not 37 at the time of the test. From the latter test I draw the conclusions that

a) stress might not have had an impact on the age of my lymphocytes, granulocytes, B-cells and T-cells, or
b) I might have had high telomere lengths on these cells from the beginning, making them seem to have aged less than my NK's, or
c) Astragalus (and/or Gingko Biloba) actually might have had a protecting or even a extending effect on the telomeres of these types of cells, and that
d) neither Astragalus or Gingko Biloba showed any effect on protecting / rejuvating my Natural Killer cells during an extended period of great stress - and that stress had a negative impact on my NK's.

It's "possible" but not very likely, I think. I haven't found any studies that would indicate that Astragalus should raise the production of NK's. My main hypothesis is along the lines of this study by Elisabeth Blackburn, http://www.tascience...burn_stress.pdf, called "Accelerated telomere shortening in response to life stress". Please remember I had several years (about half a decade) of great stress before the first DHEA/Cortisol sample was taken. Both personal and work related stress at the beginning, and then only work related stress (very high workload).

The lab which did the DHEA/Cortisol analysis, located in Asheville (I suppose I can't mention the name of the lab, due to the rules of the forums), used the colors Red, Yellow and Green in order to show the reference ranges on the results/graphs. All my values were in the "lower regions" with the regards to the colors red and yellow. Four samples were taken each sample day, at different times. The samples were collected on ordinary workdays in the beginning of the week.

Sample collection 1 (spring, 2008) showed this result:
3 of 4 cortisol values were well into "the red" territory. One was "green" (the third one).
DHEA morning value was 137 pg/ml (reference range 71-640 pg/ml), which means "green", but almost "yellow".

Here I started to use the the standardized Astragalus extract, 3 servings each day (morning, lunch, everning).

Sample collection 2 (autumn, 2008) showed this result:
1 cortisol value was still red but "almost" yellow, 1 cortisol value was yellow (but on the border to red), and two cortisol values were "green".
DHEA morning value was 158 pg/ml (reference range 71-640 pg/ml), which means "green", but with a bit of distance to the yellow territory.

It would therefore seem the standardized Astragalus extract (and/or Gingko Biloba) might have helped restoring my DHEA and Cortisol values a bit.

Then I continued with Astragalus in one way or another until I took the the Telomere Length test. Why the values on this test showed what they did is, as another commentator put it, only speculation.

Edited by GreenPower, 20 April 2009 - 05:29 PM.

[GreenPower]

Granted.
If he does the telomere length measurements in another 5 months while on astragalus, and the telomere length increased..this hypothesis can be discounted.
Else, if it had accelerated the telomere shortening of the NK cells, then we cannot discount this possibility

Can we hypothesize that the overproduction of the Natual Killer cells by astragalus reduced the telomeres?

IMHO we don't have enough data for a serious hypothesis, or even an educated guess. This seems like "One guy had a car accident while on Aspirin. My hypothesis is that Aspirin causes car accidents.".

My main scenario is to do another Telemere Length test after two "three month periods" of using Astragaloside IV and a short rest between these periods.

By the way, because I'm not really into all these technical terms used in the report from the lab in Vancouver, is there someone who can verify that these markers actually mean what I think them to mean?
Marker number:
1 - Lymphocyte, this one is not that hard, it's a lymphocyte.
2 - Granulocyte, and this is a granulocyte.
3 - CD45RA-neg, now it starts to get complicated, but I thinks this is the marker for T-cells.
4 - CD45RA-pos CD20-neg, I have no idea why they present both CD45RA and CD20-neg as one specific marker...
5 - CD47-pos, which I think is Natural Killer cells,
6 - CD20-pos, which I think is B-cells.

[Roses]

I appreciate you for giving more information in this regards.
By the way I have bought vitaminshoppe astragalus root powder to try what it is worth.
Rgds

[Anthony_Loera]

FYI Folks,

The new formulation will have 100mg of Astragaloside IV per capsule, and Chitosan.

For folks taking regular Astragalus extract daily, you will need to take 62.5 grams a day to achieve the same amount.

Cheers.
A

[tunt01]

FYI Folks,

The new formulation will have 100mg of Astragaloside IV per capsule, and Chitosan.

For folks taking regular Astragalus extract daily, you will need to take 62.5 grams a day to achieve the same amount.

Cheers.
A

out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion of this mg amount + chitosan?

[GreenPower]

FYI Folks,

The new formulation will have 100mg of Astragaloside IV per capsule, and Chitosan.

For folks taking regular Astragalus extract daily, you will need to take 62.5 grams a day to achieve the same amount.

Cheers.
A

Will the old dosage of 33mg without chitosan still be available? I would prefer to stay on the same 3x33mg/day dosage until I've completed at least one more 3-month period.

[GreenPower]

I appreciate you for giving more information in this regards.
By the way I have bought vitaminshoppe astragalus root powder to try what it is worth.
Rgds

I'll try to write a status update every 4 or 8 weeks or so, depending on whether there's anything to report or not. By the way, what is the the problem you try to solve with Astraglus?

[Roses]

I'll try to write a status update every 4 or 8 weeks or so, depending on whether there's anything to report or not. By the way, what is the the problem you try to solve with Astraglus?

Gray hair and male pattern balding

[Anthony_Loera]

FYI Folks,

The new formulation will have 100mg of Astragaloside IV per capsule, and Chitosan.

For folks taking regular Astragalus extract daily, you will need to take 62.5 grams a day to achieve the same amount.

Cheers.
A

out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion of this mg amount + chitosan?

Hi Prophets,

First we realized that pure astragaloside iv, was more difficult to absorb over astragaloside iv in astragalus (study 1)
Second, study two shows that chitosan can be used as an absorption enhancer.

Study 1:
[1]."Transport and bioavailability studies of astragaloside IV, an active ingredient in Radix Astragali." Gu Y, Wang G, Pan G, Fawcett JP, A J, Sun J. China (2004).

Abstract: Astragaloside IV is an important constituent of Radix Astragali, a herbal remedy widely used in traditional Chinese medicine. Radix Astragali is administered orally but little is known about the transport properties and bioavailability of astragaloside IV. In this paper we report studies of the absorption of astragaloside IV in the perfused rat intestinal model, transport and uptake in Caco-2 cell monolayers and in vivo bioavailability in rat after an oral dose. In the perfused rat intestinal model, absorption of astragaloside IV was low from an aqueous solution but was significantly higher from a solution of Radix Astragali. Absorption was not affected by bile duct ligation. Transport through Caco-2 cells gave a very low permeability value (mean Papp of 6.7±1.0×1022128 cm/sec.) and uptake was unaffected by P-glycoprotein inhibitors. The absolute bioavailability of astragaloside IV in rat was 2.2%.

Study 2:
[2] "Absorption enhancement study of astragaloside IV based on its transport mechanism in caco-2 cells." Huang CR, Wang GJ, Wu XL, Li H, Xie HT, Lv H, Sun JG.

The purpose of this study was to investigate the transport characteristics and mechanisms for discovering the possible causes of the low bioavailability of astragaloside IV and to develop an absorption enhancement strategy. Caco-2 cells used as the in vitro model. Results showed a low permeability coefficient (3.7 x 10(-8)cm/s for transport from the AP to BL direction), which remained unchanged throughout the concentration range studied, indicating that the transport of astragaloside IV was predominantly via a passive route. The AP to BL transport of astragaloside IV was found to be highly sensitive to the extracellular Ca2+ concentration, which suggested that its transport may be via a paracellular route. Both chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can increase the permeation efficiency of astragaloside IV. This study indicated that astragaloside IV having a low fraction dose absorbed in humans mainly due to its poor intestinal permeability, high molecular weight, low lipophilicity as well as its paracelluar transport may directly result in the low permeability through its passive transport. Meanwhile, chitosan and sodium deoxycholate can be used as absorption enhancers based on its transport mechanism.

Actually the study we checked out showed that you only needed 0.1% for an increase in absorption (see earlier posts regarding chitosan and edta), but we decided to use 1% of the total amount of extract we were adding to each capsule. We simply have a unique formulation now.

Having said that, this formulation is not in Geron's current patent application regarding Astragalus extracts:
http://appft1.uspto....amp;RS=10562374

A very specific formulation is needed for the patent office, when patenting a formulation that has natural herbs and extracts. Again, you are allowed a patent on the specific formulation, not the natural compounds.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 01 May 2009 - 09:05 PM.

[GreenPower]

I'll try to write a status update every 4 or 8 weeks or so, depending on whether there's anything to report or not. By the way, what is the the problem you try to solve with Astraglus?

Gray hair and male pattern balding

Ok, but...
- 3 doses each day of "standardised Astragalus Root Extract (0.5% glucosides, 70% polysaccharides) 225 mg, Raw Astragalus Root Powder 250 mg" during half a year, or
- 3 doses each day of "ordinary root powder version of Astragalus (470mg)" during about another half a year
...did not seem to have any visibile effect at all with regards to hair growth on me.
- Whereas the application of minoxidil on and off for decades seem to have had a limited, and not very cost-effective, effect
- But a combination of "3 doses per day of 33mg Astragoliside IV" + the application of above mentioned skin cream during a six week period seem to give at least measurable results (whitish down which I guesstimate to be about 1-3 mm depending on location. you can of course hypothesize that this result is a cumulative effect of all the treatments above, and not just the last one)

...so I wouldn't expect to much effect in hair growth from ordinary Astragalus that you buy at the local drugstore.

I would also guess that your current age and genetic predesposition to withstand male pattern baldness may affect the results you may get, whatever treatment you try. The latter you can find out with a simple genetic test.

Here's an interesting research paper on the subject of genetic predisposition: http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;term=15902657