2189 replies to this topic

[osris]

I just came across this antiaging product. It works the same way as Astral Fruit and probably invites the same sorts of questions regarding it. You take it only twice a year:

It is very expensive.

It's testemonials listings seem too good to be true, though.

Edit: Commercial link removed.

Edited by niner, 22 August 2009 - 09:38 PM.

[niner]

osris, I just removed the link you posted because it looks like a viral marketing scam. There is no evidence whatsoever that the product was a telomerase activator. It is very expensive though. The testimonials are too good to be true. They are probably friends of the vendor, or they are experiencing a placebo effect after spending a fortune for the magic serum.

-moderator

[osris]

I'm sorry for posting that link. I have no connection with the company. I just thought it looked a similar product.

By the way does resveratrol also extend telomeres, if so does this mean it poses a cancer risk?

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi, I just came across this thread today. It has been an informative and entertaining read. I started off hopeful that Astral Fruit would be a good supplement to take, but as I read more and more of the thread doubts crept in, and I no longer think so.

I was principally disappointed by Anthony's despondency over it not being very effective in his case, then concern entered my mind as I read AgeVivo's posts and his concerns that the risk or not of cancer has yet to be fully established. My concern was further fuelled by Vincent mentioning his skin cancer, and the possibility that it could, just could, be connected to the supplement.

I admire Anthony's honesty in this thread, but fear it may lose him potential customers for what could be a promising product once its safety and efficacy can be scientifically determined.

That is fine Osris,

however the quote from Geron's CEO says it all regarding cell immortalization (ie. Cancer):

"In previous studies we have achieved a similar antiviral enhancement by transducing CD8+ T-cells with the telomerase gene, hTERT, but pharmacologic telomerase activation has far more potential therapeutically because it is more practical to administer than gene therapy, allows for greater regulation of dosing, and importantly, we have now shown that TAT2 does not promote a loss of growth control or cell immortalization," said Thomas B. Okarma, Ph.D. M.D., Geron's president and chief executive officer.

As for HIV vs non-HIV blood... the results are looking to be pretty similar, according to some tests using regular healthy human blood that are being done.

Cheers
A

[osris]

Anthony, It's possible the risk may be negligable, but until several research studies confirm categorically that it is so I want to play safe.

[hamishm00]

Anthony, are you still getting your blood tests done?

If so, when's the next one due, and what have the results been like so far?

[Anthony_Loera]

Osris,

not a problem. Many folks share your view, and will wait this one out compared to resveratrol or another supplement. If you are on the fence, take some time and wait a bit... we will be here if you decide it's worth consideration.

hamishm00,

next tests will be done in September. Likely I will use two labs this time around, a US one and the Canadian one. Tests so far with Astragaloside IV alone, have been inconclusive for growth or for slowing the regular telomere process, although it may have slowed... their is no definite proof and I may not be getting the right dose for my weight. The tests in September will show if Astragaloside 100mg with Chitosan may have helped. After that one is complete... I am switching over to Cycloastragenol (per suggestions here on the board), and will test six months down the line to see how that one performs compared to the A4 formulation.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 24 August 2009 - 01:33 PM.

[osris]

Thanks, Anthony. I will.

[Anthony_Loera]

<Deleted Attachment>

Per forum moderator.

PM Me if you would like the COA that used to be here.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 25 August 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[bsm]

next tests will be done in September. Likely I will use two labs this time around, a US one and the Canadian one. Tests so far with Astragaloside IV alone, have been inconclusive for growth or for slowing the regular telomere process, although it may have slowed... their is no definite proof and I may not be getting the right dose for my weight. The tests in September will show if Astragaloside 100mg with Chitosan may have helped. After that one is complete... I am switching over to Cycloastragenol (per suggestions here on the board), and will test six months down the line to see how that one performs compared to the A4 formulation.

Cheers
A

Did you ask the US lab about the accuracy of their measurement?

Edited by bsm, 29 August 2009 - 06:08 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

The two labs actually use different processes to measure telomere length.

If you have a list of questions, for Spectracell, please list them and I will get answers as I am talking to their main science contact next week.

A

[bsm]

The two labs actually use different processes to measure telomere length.

If you have a list of questions, for Spectracell, please list them and I will get answers as I am talking to their main science contact next week.

A

I want to know the range of accuracy for base pairs that the US lab can measure.

Also, since different types of cells will have different telomere lengths, what type of cell will you be measuring?
According to unglued, the variation between cells could be 400-500 base pairs. However, he did not specify if the variation was between the same cell type or different types. I would imagine telomere variation within one cell type would be less than the variation between a different cell type.

In any case, I would suggest them doing the test 5 times on one blood sample to get an average length for one particular cell type. The average telomere length from 5 measurements, for one blood sample, will give a much better picture over the years than one measurement at time.

Edited by bsm, 29 August 2009 - 08:41 PM.

[unglued]

According to unglued, the variation between cells could be 400-500 base pairs. However, he did not specify if the variation was between the same cell type or different types.

The 500 base-pair figure (0.5 kb) was what Anthony reported that Repeat Diagnostics told him over the phone. (I believe that's the variation they think is typical from one blood sample to the next, from the same person at about the same time. In contrast, the "SD" in their report, usually 0.1 or 0.0 kb, is how much difference they see between two measurements of the same sample.)

All I did was to look closely at the percentile lines that Repeat Diagnostics draws on their reports (as posted by Anthony), using the electronic equivalent of a straight edge, in order to convert base pairs to years, to give us some intuitive feel for how accurate it is. We have no intuitive feel for what 500 base pairs means. But we know intuitively that if someone says to us, "Wow, you look 15 years older than when I saw you six months ago! No, wait... you haven't aged a day in six months. Somewhere in that range, anyway" then we understand that that person is not very good at guessing ages at all, and we wouldn't relying too much on their judgment of whether we're staying healthy, and when we come back later and they tell us we suddenly look 10 years younger than the first time, we shouldn't get too excited. To put it another way, if something magically halted a person's aging, or even made him grow a year younger per year, it would take awhile for his friends to notice, but it would take even longer for the Repeat Diagnostics test to notice, by the sound of it (unless the immune system got younger in ways that didn't affect the skin etc.). In all fairness, Repeat Diagnostics is apparently marketing their tests for patients who are suspected of abnormally having severely shortened telomeres, and if they only need to be able to say "this 25 -year-old has the telomeres of a 75-year-old", qualifying it with "give or take 15 years" doesn't change the diagnosis of the cause of the problem.

So I think it would be good to ask Spectracell how relatively accurate they think their technique is at reflecting the change in the length of a person's telomeres (in the given cell type, anyway), not just how repeatably they can measure telomeres in a single sample. Another way of putting it is "If I came back in a few days with another sample, would a change of 100 kb either way surprise you, or would you say 'Oh, that's just perfectly normal variation and doesn't mean anything?'. 200 kb? 500 kb?" Yet another way would be, "If a healthy, normally aging person submitted five samples, a year apart, and you looked at the results with all date or age information removed, how confident are you that you could put them in the correct order? What about two or five years apart?" (Because if they think it would take 10 or 20 years of the signal of normal aging to overcome the noise of the variation in their measurements and in people's natural fluctuations, then A4 would have to have a very dramatic effect in order for us to be sure it's not just a random test variation.)

[Anthony_Loera]

bsm and unglued...

you guys provided some really great questions.
I will ask these, and get back with some answers.

Cheers
A

[maxwatt]

I moved several posts on pricing into the Retailer/Product Discussion forum under the topic: Astragaloside IV Price Watch

[ampaynz1]

TASciences had a live video conference last week and just recently posted the video on their website via an embed post. The location of the 2 hour video is at

View on Vimeo.

. When asked about getting this product from another source they spoke about Geron having two pending patents. I am quite interested in the new formulation of TA-65. a couple speakers mentioned they consume 100mg of TA-65 daily. They did show a bottle with 25mg label on it. The old formulation was 5mg cycloastragenol. Either they have increased the amount in each pill by or they are just adding 20mg astragaloside IV + 5mg cycloastragenol. However, the owner claimed each pill consisted of only one molecule. I have taken 5mg cycloastragenol and can feel it working through out the day. I wouldn't think such a huge dose of cycloastragenol would be needed. Pic of current TA-65 bottle from Dr Dave talk

[tintinet]

TASciences had a live video conference last week and just recently posted the video on their website via an embed post. The location of the 2 hour video is at

View on Vimeo.

. When asked about getting this product from another source they spoke about Geron having two pending patents. I am quite interested in the new formulation of TA-65. a couple speakers mentioned they consume 100mg of TA-65 daily. They did show a bottle with 25mg label on it. The old formulation was 5mg cycloastragenol. Either they have increased the amount in each pill by or they are just adding 20mg astragaloside IV + 5mg cycloastragenol. However, the owner claimed each pill consisted of only one molecule. I have taken 5mg cycloastragenol and can feel it working through out the day. I wouldn't think such a huge dose of cycloastragenol would be needed. Pic of current TA-65 bottle from Dr Dave talk

What do you feel?

[GreenPower]

A very interesting video conference with some "hints" on potential results of using TA-65. I still feel there's a lack of "hard numbers" on results from their customers, though.
A few other observations:
- The first speaker (Sierra Sciences) covered the "T.A. Sciences Pivotal 2005 Anti-Aging Trial of TA-65", without ever saying this study was actually about a "presumed" precursor molecule to TA-65 called TA-41 (according to the original study). If they have now established that TA-41 "is" a precursor, it would be very interesting to know how much TA-65 it corresponds to.
- The first speaker said we are conceived with cells having 15.000 base pairs, born with about 10.000 base pairs and then the cells dies at 5.000 base pairs. The third speaker (Dave Woynarowski) also said we are born with cells having 10.000 base pairs and that the cells dies at 5.000 base pairs. This gives some basic outer boundaries to the results we receive from a telomere measurement.
- The first speaker said there's only one commercial lab for measuring telomere lengths, but conveniently forgot to mention "the Canadian lab".
- It was interesting to get an idea on approximately how many people are taking TA-65 (more than 100 and less than 1000).

Edited by GreenPower, 02 October 2009 - 08:37 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

They did show a bottle with 25mg label on it. The old formulation was 5mg cycloastragenol. Either they have increased the amount in each pill by or they are just adding 20mg astragaloside IV + 5mg cycloastragenol. However, the owner claimed each pill consisted of only one molecule.

It's funny, people always assumed TA-65 may have been Cycloastragenol... what if instead, it was maybe Astragaloside IV or another lesser known telomerase activator listed at the beginning of this thread. Since the material is much easier to come by they are maybe just now simply increasing the dose?

I simply don't know. If someone can forward me a few TA-65 capsules I will test to see what it is. Without testing, no one will be sure about their formulation. Having said that, the unique chitosan formulations we have continue to appear to have great absorption if you consider the study on the chitosan combination with A4.

Cheers
A

[unglued]

On the question of whether TA-65 is in fact Astragaloside IV:

The new formulation will have 100mg of Astragaloside IV per capsule, and Chitosan.

For folks taking regular Astragalus extract daily, you will need to take 62.5 grams a day to achieve the same amount.

But the TA Sciences FAQ says:

the TA-65 molecule, while present in the Astragalus plant, is very rare. It literally takes tons of the plant material to make a small amount of pure TA-65.

and more specifically, they say elsewhere:

Astragalus extracts can be found in most health food stores, but such products contain little or no TA-65. We tested 4 commonly available Astragalus extracts and none of them contained any measureable amounts of TA-65 (the test assay is accurate to one part per million). Our proprietary production process starts with 3 tons of plant material and ends up with capsules that we guarantee contain 5mg of TA-65.

So I would have to conclude that TA-65 can't* be Astragaloside IV.


* Caveats: Unless by "regular Astragalus extract" Anthony means an extremely highly concentrated from the root powder to start with, or by "ends up with capsules" TA Sciences means "ends up with a production run of 1000 bottles of 5mg capsules. Or unless their process is extremely inefficient at squeezing out the TA-65.

Edited by unglued, 04 October 2009 - 06:39 AM.

[unglued]

I've watched the first 59 minutes of the above video so far, and I've noticed that TA-65 does have one side effect: it causes memory difficulties. 100% of the speakers who've been taking it failed to remember a question for two minutes.

[medievil]

I'm thinking of starting a resveratrol astragaloside combo, is it usefull to add in AC-11 for DNA repair?

[stephen_b]

From the video, humans are one of the few animals that age by telomere shortening, along with horses and dogs. But not cats. So aging in cats is not well understood?

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Unglued,

thanks for that post.

Astragalus extracts can be found in most health food stores, but such products contain little or no TA-65. We tested 4 commonly available Astragalus extracts and none of them contained any measureable amounts of TA-65 (the test assay is accurate to one part per million). Our proprietary production process starts with 3 tons of plant material and ends up with capsules that we guarantee contain 5mg of TA-65.

The test on their website does test a few "astragalus supplements" for A4, and doesn't find much... as for starting with 3 tons, and ending up with 5mg capsules... they don't say how many 5mg capsules, so you can't extrapolate the amounts using "3 tons" since they don't tell you how many capsules it makes. They simply stated an impressive number to consider. However assuming standardized astragalus extracts, cycloastragenol, and the calculations I use ourselves for production... we currently produce 5x the amount of capsules and start with 15 tons of raw material to produce our 5mg capsules. Please don't get stuck on the "Big" numbers, unless all the information has been provided.

Now... having said that, I had a chat with someone taking TA-65 3-4 months ago. They said that the were directed to take 5mg, although some folks started to take 10mg split into two daily doses. The new information regarding 25mg, is quite new to me. It is astonishing that folks would take 20x the amount (100mg) they used to take just 3-4 months ago... what does this say about the years that have gone by, where only 5mg was provided to their clients? Would it appear that the telomere test error rate between blood draws may have something to do with this increase? I simply don't know.

I find the decision to take 20x the old dosage quite dramatic after years of proposing only 5mg. It seems very strange to me, unless maybe it wasn't working for clients or they were only using A4, then it makes a bit more sense, doesn't it?

For folks wanting an update about my tests, since I have been getting many PM's lately:

1- First, I cannot recommend Spectracell for telomere tests at this time (I wish I could): I emailed Spectracell on 08/31/2009 expecting answers to questions posed by myself a folks here. I have been delaying my telomere tests, while waiting for these answers. As of today, I have yet to receive any responses to the questions, even though I was assured they would be answered. I have taken too long waiting on them, and will not be sending blood for them to test. I simply am tired of waiting and need to get tested this coming week to begin my new regimen. At the present time, it is my belief that they may not provide results for more than a single type of cell. I do recommend the canadian lab, but their pricing has gone up quite a bit now. As soon as I get my tests, I will make them available.

2- Biophysical250, I am considering doing at the same time as telomere tests. I will be taking this soon as we now offer it, and it maybe a good metric for the ongoing supplement intake. The price is about 3-4 times the price of telomere testing, however it simply the best testing for most biomarkers.

3- I will be starting my new regimen with Cycloastragenol this month, and take another test to see if it makes a difference in about 6 months.

4- Fact: UCLA studied Cycloastragenol regarding retarding telomere shrinkage. There is only one company that guarantees the Cycloastragenol in their products, and it is not TA Sciences. They do not state what they use or guarantee cycloastragenol. We simply don't know what they use. It can be any number of things from the list at the beginning of this thread. By the look of it and in my personal opinion, it could have been that they were selling A4 all along, and just maximizing their profit. Of course, that is my opinion until I get more information.

At this time, I am going to stick with the stuff UCLA tested, for the next 6 months to see if their are any good results.

Cheers
A

[unglued]

From the video, humans are one of the few animals that age by telomere shortening, along with horses and dogs. But not cats. So aging in cats is not well understood?

It's well known that cats are unique in having nine lives.

But seriously, that point in the video (which I know I've heard before about mice) raises some questions, mostly about resveratrol. (This paragraph probably belongs in one of the topics in the Resveratrol forum, but there are so many that I'm not sure where to post it.) If mice age by stress and not by telomere shortening, then even if you believe that that supplement fixes the longevity bottleneck in mice, it may not make humans live longer. Imagine you hear that a drug increases feline lifespan by 30%, but then it turns out that it does so by suppressing curiosity. It might not increase lifespan in other species.

Someone watching the presentation live asked about the price coming down due to volume of sales, and someone else asked about synthesizing TA-65. Dr. Patton stated that the price is unlikely to come down anytime soon, further than it already has, because it's such a rare molecule and so expensive to extract (he repeated the 3-ton quote from the website), and that they know how to synthesize it, but it would take 30 steps and cost $10,000 a gram (if I'm remembering those figures correctly). Of course, manufacturers always want to downplay the possibility that it will cost you less if you wait a few years before buying from them, because if everyone did that, either the price would go up due to lower volume, or they'd go out of business and their product would be unavailable entirely.

It occurred to me that there's some hope of a drastically reduced price. (This would be better news for consumers than for TA Sciences, of course, if they really invested a lot in their current extraction process.) That would be if some other plant produced TA-65 naturally, in higher concentrations. Imagine that an early company were offering resveratrol for $8000/year, and said "Well, it's inherently expensive, and we're not making all that much profit. We have to boil down 100 bottles of wine to make each pill." And they might even be telling the truth. Then someone else discovers that Japanese knotweed, which is much easier to grow than grapes, contains much more of the molecule. I wonder if anyone is searching for such a plant, using techniques similar to those that Geron used to discovered the molecule in the first place, by looking for TA-activating molecules in astragalus.

Of course, if the results of such a search are patentable, the company that finds it could charge a higher price for it than we would like, and it it's not patentable, who would pay for the search?

[Anthony_Loera]

You mean the price of the Patton protocol? Because TA-65 is not sold by itself.

For folks looking for alternatives to the Patton protocol, here is what is available:

1- We can order telomere test through the canadian lab.
2- We can check all Biomarkers through Biophysical250.
3- We can buy Cycloastragenol by itself, or in combination with the two items above.

We have done a few things so far: Suddenly we have reduced the price while knowing what ingredient is being taken, and have gotten quite a bit more biomarkers covered to boot.

Most folks can't do all 3 in one shot, so instead of packaging it all and calling it the "Loera Protocol" for our package which includes telomere and biomarker testing, we are starting to develop the menu so that you can pick what you want right now. (Besides, I would prefer some other name for this full package instead of using my last name like Mr. Noel Patton has used to promote his package of tests. It's also possible to offer it at a discounted price in some way.)

The point is, that when you buy TA-65, it is expensive because you can't buy the supplements on their own. I personally have another view on this, and that is to offer a menu of items to help folks pick what they find important, and can afford at the time.

Anyone have a good name for our package of tests and supplements for folks that want to buy them all in one shot?
I have a few ideas I am considering at the moment.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 05 October 2009 - 01:00 AM.

[unglued]

Whatever you call it, be sure to always spell it in all caps, like they do, so customers will know how important it is even though it has almost no statistically significant scientific results.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hehehe.... good advice unglued...

CAPS... got it.



A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 05 October 2009 - 01:37 PM.

[GreenPower]

I've watched the first 59 minutes of the above video so far, and I've noticed that TA-65 does have one side effect: it causes memory difficulties. 100% of the speakers who've been taking it failed to remember a question for two minutes.

I noted this too. However, the other speakers (and Greta Blackburn) who were also taking TA-65, appeared to have a better memory.

Today I got the results from my second health check, which I did two days after ending my second 3-month period on AIV. The first check I did just before I started on my first period. These results on using AIV at least suggest it isn't fatal...

Here's first a recapture of what I've been taking during the two periods.
I've been taking AIV during two periods of 3 months, with a three week interval in between. The first period was 3 x 33mg and the second was 1 x 100mg + Chitosan. The latter period also included the use of Orlistat (3x120mg) which I started with directly after the first period and Gingko Biloba (1x100mg) which I used during the other half of the second period.

The complete results from the health checks were as follows.

Health Check 1 - Before starting to use AIV
Measuring point   Reference value:
Length: 186 cm
Weight: 103 kg
BMI: 29.7   <25
Blood preassure: 110/70   140/80
EKG (ECG): OK
PEF (lung capacity): OK
UA (Urin analysis): OK
HB (Blood value): 164   Men: 134-170
B-Glucosis (blood sugar): 4.8   4.0-6.0
SR/ESR (sedimentation rate): 4                       <20
Creatinine (kidneys): 78 Men: <100
ASAT (liver): 0.57 Men: <0.76
ALAT (liver): 0.90 Men: <1.2
Cholesterol: 6.7 31-40 year: 3.3 - 6.9
Triglycerides: 1.1 0.45-2.6
Hearing: OK
Vision: Left 1.0, Right 1.0
Colour vision: OK
PSA (prostate): 0.7   <3.0

Health Check 2 - Monday, two days after ending the second period on AIV
Measuring point   Reference value:
Length: 186 cm
Weight: 96 kg
BMI: 27.7   <25
Blood preassure: 120/70   140/80
EKG (ECG): OK
PEF (lung capacity): OK
UA (Urin analysis): OK
HB (Blood value): 153 Men: 134-170
B-Glucosis (blood sugar): 5.3 4.0-6.0
SR/ESR (sedimentation rate): 10                       <20
Creatinine (kidneys): 78 Men: <100
ASAT (liver): 0.44   Men: <0.76
ALAT (liver): 0.55 Men: <1.2
Cholesterol: 5.1   31-40 year: 3.3 - 6.9
Triglycerides: 1.4   0.45-2.6
Hearing: OK
Vision: Left 1.0, Right 0.9
Colour vision: OK
PSA (prostate): 0.9 <3.0

Comments

• I would argue that my vision has not changed. Rather, my right lens was not sitting as it should during the second test.
• I started to use Orlistat in order to improve my cholesterol and loose weight, which I've appeared to have done.
• I've also started to eat less "unhealthy" fat and more low GI-food. This in order to be able to eliminate the side effects of Orlistat.
• In my country there has been a lot of news on Orlistat not being good for your liver. If it is, then the AIV and/or my change in diet seem to have countered that effect and actually improved the liver values quite significantly.
  
• I started to use Gingko Biloba in order to boost my mental abilities at work. 
• I don't have the exact numbers from my first health check on my "lung capacity", but it was my impression this test went way better on my second health check. This is interesting because I've actually been training less during the last six months (once every second week or so) than I did before the first test (at least twice each week).
• HB is a bit higher, which might be attributed to Astragalus usually being rich in iron.
  
• SR and PSA is a bit higher too. I'm not sure these values have risen enough to cause any worries or not.

I've also sent my bloodwork to the canadian lab and expect the results on my second Telomere test in a week or two.

Edited by GreenPower, 05 October 2009 - 06:27 PM.

[AgeVivo]

From the video, humans are one of the few animals that age by telomere shortening, along with horses and dogs. But not cats. So aging in cats is not well understood?

Where did you see that telomere shortening is not an issue for cats?