2189 replies to this topic

[kitinje]

I believe that TaSciences is putting TA-41 instead of TA-65 in the 100 mg pills.
According to their website TA-65 is a metabolite of TA-41, 40 mg TA-41 equals 5 mg TA-65.
They've probably changed their protocol, it starts with CycloAstragenol but switches to Astragaloside IV after a short time because A IV is much cheaper.

This is possible.. but there were a lot of people here taking 100mg Astragaloside IV daily for several months without results..

[mikeinnaples]

This is possible.. but there were a lot of people here taking 100mg Astragaloside IV daily for several months without results..

Not entirely accurate. The only verifiable person with any 'results' is Anthony, and the were inconclusive due to margin of error in the testing..... unless I missed something along the way.

[mikeinnaples]

Hi Mike,

1- Geron's patent states Cycloastragenol, as one of 4 products of nature or ingredients they show in the current pending patent (although the final patent has not come out, and this ingredient may not be in the final paperwork, but that is highly unlikely).

2- Don't know, but it takes 3 months for a reply after a notice is issued.

3- Not much (sorry I can't go into detail on this last one)...

Cheers
A

1. Time to run out and get a patent on Vitamin D so you can start charging all the folks bathing in the Florida sun some $$$.

2. Ok

3. Understood.

[AlexB]

This is possible.. but there were a lot of people here taking 100mg Astragaloside IV daily for several months without results..

From TA Sciences 2005 Clinical Trial : "The product tablets each contained 10 mg of TA-41 (an Astragalus extract) along with other botanical extracts and excipients."
I wonder what these "other botanical extracts and excipients" are.
They obviously improve the bioavailability and the metabolization speed from TA-41 to TA-65.
Could it be that Astral Fruit is missing a key ingredient to reach a minimum TA-65 threshold level in blood serum in order to activate telomerase ?

If the new 100 mg pills are indeed TA-41 then I find it strange that the new Patton Protocol still starts with the 5 mg TA-65 pills.
If they want to maximize profit then I assume that they would start immediately with the 100 mg TA-41 pills.
So maybe it takes a while to reach the minimum threshold level and they've decided to start with TA-65 to bypass the initial metabolization step.

I wonder if it's possible to have your blood analysed for Cycloastragenol levels ?
Then it would be possible to compare the blood serum levels while using the old Astral Fruit formula (100 mg A IV) vs the new formula (5 mg Cycloastragenol).

A Notice of Allowance has been granted for Geron's patent, here in the USA.

The Geron patent is all about telomerase activation.
I am not a lawyer but IMHO just selling Cycloastragenol pills without marketing them as a 'telomerase activator' is no patent infringement.

Alex.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi AlexB,

You assume TA-41 is metabolized into cycloastragenol. Unless you know information that we don't, I am not sure that is an accurate assumption.

I will have a patent lawyer take look at your suggestion, however we do have another material that we can use in a new Astral Fruit formulation that has no issues with marketing and may work very well using the right amounts.

Cheers
A

[AlexB]

Hi AlexB,

You assume TA-41 is metabolized into cycloastragenol. Unless you know information that we don't, I am not sure that is an accurate assumption.

I will have a patent lawyer take look at your suggestion, however we do have another material that we can use in a new Astral Fruit formulation that has no issues with marketing and may work very well using the right amounts.

Cheers
A

Well, let me rephrase my words.
If I remember correctly then both A IV and Cycloastragenol are metabolized to the same molecule at the cellular level.
I will try to find the website where I've found this information.

[Anthony_Loera]

That would be great, as I have no such information to validate that.

As far as I know, I don't see that anywhere at this time.
So if you can spot the website, that would be interesting to check.

thanks
A

[xtol]

The Geron patent is all about telomerase activation.
I am not a lawyer but IMHO just selling Cycloastragenol pills without marketing them as a 'telomerase activator' is no patent infringement.

Alex.
[/quote]

I'm not patent lawyer either, but surely there must be workarounds to this, especially since cyclo is available from bulk chemical suppliers. I think the patent is on the marketing and claimed effects of the molecule, and not on the molecule itself. But I could be wrong. In any case, as long as cyclo is available in its generic form from suppliers it can be used as an ingredient in any branded product, as long as the product does not claim to be TA-65.

[Anthony_Loera]

Xtol, you keep insisting that cyclo is TA-65 when there is no proof.

TA Sciences and Geron are two different companies, you do know that right?

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 17 December 2009 - 06:53 PM.

[GreenPower]

Here's the dose/response curve for TAT2/Cycloastragenol in vitro, according to the report published by Rita B Effros et al in the Journal of Immunology (Nov 2008, 181: 7400-7406). Specifically it shows "b, Dose-response curve of PHA-stimulated PBMC from HIV-infected individuals (n = 6), showing mean (and SD) telomerase activity from cultures treated with TAT2 vs DMSO every 48 h for 12 days".

Does anyone know how to transform this into a recommended minimum and maximum dose for a normal person in order to maximize the effect? Including the negative effect on absorption by the digestive system...

It's hard to estimate what will happen to the drug if you swallow it, but to put a lower limit on the amount you would need in order to reach those concentrations, we can do a ballpark estimate. If you injected the drug intravenously, and assumed 5 liters plasma volume, to get 1000 nM = 1 uM, and assuming the use of the aglycone (MW=491);

1e-6 m/l * 5 l * 491g/m = 0.0025g = 2.5 mg

Cycloastragenol has a very shallow dose-response curve in this particular experiment. There's a 50% increase at 10nM, and 100% increase at 1000nM, then a decrease at 10 uM. The 10 uM number is probably irrelevant, and may just represent a toxicity. From the calculation, it's highly unlikely that an oral dose of 5 mg would result in a 1000nM plasma level, but it's 200 times the amount needed via a theoretical intravenous injection (with NO metabolism!) to reach 10 nM, which resulted in a 50% increase in the in vitro experiment. Therefore, it's not crazy to use this as a starting dose. The only way to do this kind of thing right is to dose a person orally, then periodically draw their blood and assay it for cycloastragenol content. It's possible that they did that, and realized that they weren't seeing the concentrations they had hoped for. It's also possible, and more likely, I think, that they saw neither toxicity nor telomere extension, and just got a lot more bold with the dose. It's also worth considering that healthy human cells of various types (since we want to hit them all) might require a lot higher dose than the amped up HIV infected cells in the experiment above. The lack of metabolism and perfect absorption assumed by the lower bound calculation are pretty unlikely assumptions. It might turn out that you need even more than 100mg orally.

Nice calculations! The result nicely corresponds with the now quite familiar dosage suggestions in Gerons patent application "COMPOSITIONS AND METHODS FOR INCREASING TELOMERASE ACTIVITY" ( http://v3.espacenet....s...mp;KC=&FT=E ). I've included the interesting part below (blue text) for people new to the thread.

* For treatment of a subject or patient, such as a mammal or a human patient, dosages are determined based on factors such as the weight and overall health of the subject, the condition treated, severity of symptoms, etc. Dosages and concentrations are determined to produce the desired benefit while avoiding any undesirable side effects. Typical dosages of the subject compounds are in the range of about 0 5 to 500 mg/day for a human patient, preferably about 1-100 mg/day. For example, higher dose regimens include e. g. 50-100,75-100, or 50-75 mg/day, and lower dose regimens include e. g. 1-50, 25-50, or 1-25 mg/day. In specific embodiments, for example, the compound designated herein as 2 (cycloastragenol) is administered at a level of at least 1 mg/day, preferably at least 5 mg/day; or the compound designated herein as 1 (astragaloside IV) is administered at a level of at least 50 mg/day, preferably at least 100 mg/day.

Studies in support of the invention indicate that the compounds of formula I-m have excellent bioavailability and low toxicity. For example, a representative compound, cycloastragenol (2), was negative for reverse bacterial mutation potential in the Ames test, employing Salmonella Typhimurium tester strains TA98, TA100, TA1535, TA 1537 and E. coli tester strain WP2 uvrA, at levels up to 5000 LE/plate. It was well-tolerated systemically in Sprague-Dawley rats, after single intravenous injections up to 10 mg/kg.

No significant dose-dependent changes were observed for males or females in behavior (eating, drinking), gross weight, organ weights (heart, lung, liver, kidneys, adrenals and spleen), hematology or clinical chemistry.

[Anthony_Loera]

Looks good GreenPower.

[lily liu-kingtiger]

late greetings: Merry Xmas! Hope that everyone here can make great achievement next year!

[Aladarius]

Hi Anthony,

Any word on the new formulation?

[Anthony_Loera]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

[Suzudo]

Hello


Synthesis?

http://books.google....N...ide&f=false


Sources?

http://books.google....B...ide&f=false


Uses in medicine?

http://books.google....V...ide&f=false


And on this hobby of mine, using a precursor,,both serotonin and melatonin
and therefore the epithelion, helping to increase physical activity and mental:

http://books.google....3...;q=&f=false

Shilima khemen

[ascendedcobra]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! This my first post but have been reading for a while. Today I recieved my first shippment of Astral fruit C (4 bottles) I have 2 more orders processing for a total of 18. Trying to get a 2yr supply for me and my wife. My question is how does this product stack up to TA-65? Is it 1/4, 1/2 as good or not at all? My plan was to start the patton protocol this year or at least get the pills and do the telomere test. I was going to put my wife on Astral fruit while I tried TA-65 but since you have your sale I decided to do this and take 2 astral/day and micro resveratrol 500mg/day the next week that you say to do. Is 10mg enough or should I do the TA-65? I already met with DR. Life in Las Vegas about the patton protocol but that is a lot of money! I am 40yrs now and look and feel really young but I want whatever I am doing to be working. Also when is that master gene P 16 comming out?

[Lesbure]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! This my first post but have been reading for a while. Today I recieved my first shippment of Astral fruit C (4 bottles) I have 2 more orders processing for a total of 18. Trying to get a 2yr supply for me and my wife. My question is how does this product stack up to TA-65? Is it 1/4, 1/2 as good or not at all? My plan was to start the patton protocol this year or at least get the pills and do the telomere test. I was going to put my wife on Astral fruit while I tried TA-65 but since you have your sale I decided to do this and take 2 astral/day and micro resveratrol 500mg/day the next week that you say to do. Is 10mg enough or should I do the TA-65? I already met with DR. Life in Las Vegas about the patton protocol but that is a lot of money! I am 40yrs now and look and feel really young but I want whatever I am doing to be working. Also when is that master gene P 16 comming out?

I think Revgenetics C.Astragenol is 50% pure/Geron's-TA Science's TA-65 is 90% pure. This data was on the Revgen site in both of the links they use to the labs they used. I just take 2 of Revgenetics C.Astragenol a day. The price can't be beat, and they seem more straightforward than TA Sciences. And more inventive. And more transparent.

It's very confusing to me that TA Sciences is now using dosing that is the same dosing one uses for the Astragoloside IV compound.

In a previous post I wrote:


<I called 2 TA Sciences resources yesterday. They gave me the current protocol/'Patton Program' for using TA-65/Cylcoastragenol to lengthen telomeres. They start out at 25mg for a few days (7), then suggest 50mg for 3 months, then 100 mg for another 3 months. Then a break. The pulsatile/break thing is up for grabs at the moment as far as the best way to coax your telomeres to grow a bit and still have your cells be sensitive to this stimuli. After about a year on this regimen and the best-case scenario is that your telomeres have lengthened to the extent that you've gotten back a good decade of your life on earth.

I believe, since this company's initial program had dosing at 5 mg a day, that someone here was interested in knowing whether this new regimen offered a new 'molecule'. Well, if they did, a lot of people who are paying and considering paying 4k for every 6 months for the recommended 3 years of treatment for the least pricey plan wouldn't be happy. And even though some of these customers might be too busy to check, and some of these customers may not be knowledgeable labrats, some indeed aren't and are.

http://www.wipo.int/...mp;DISPLAY=DESC

The above link is from a Geron patent description. The best paragraph (as most best paragraphs are) is about 4/5 of the way down the page. It has to do with dosing--



<For treatment of a subject or patient, such as a mammal or a human patient, dosages are determined based on factors such as the weight
and overall health of the subject, the condition treated, severity of symptoms, etc. Dosages and concentrations are determined to
produce the desired benefit while avoiding any undesirable side effects. Typical dosages of the subject compounds are in the range
of about 0 5 to 500 mg/day for a human patient, preferably about 1-100 mg/day. For example, higher dose regimens
include e. g. 50-100,75-100, or 50-75 mg/day, and lower dose regimens include e. g. 1-50, 25-50, or 1-25 mg/day.
In specific embodiments, for example, the compound designated herein as 2 (cycloastragenol) is administered at a
level of at least 1 mg/day, preferably at least 5 mg/day; or the compound designated herein as 1 (astragaloside IV)
is administered at a level of at least 50 mg/day, preferably at least 100 mg/day. >



So, I personally think that TA is using Astral. IV. And they can do so, I suppose, because 'TA-65' is in it--somewhere. I haven't parsed their marketing, but I'm sure they have.

Their rationale may be that they are simply performing another leg of an IND type of experimentation (for another company). Just that I wouldn't expect a company who paid Geron for the use of its patented miracle to do this. Perhaps in using this form of the TA, they are trying to avoid serious side effects(ca)/lawsuits and providing a greater margin of safety. Their program would still be desired by those who would appreciate/need carriage-trade style care. >



I am worried about natural substances and extracts being able to be patented, yes, and about quite possibly having to spend a great deal to obtain an effective TA/telomerase activator. But, like yourself, I am most concerned with effectiveness.

TA Sciences' dramatic dose change in a working/effective drug/extract/product was a red flag to me. It should be to most people. I don't think I'd go to TA Sciences now if they dropped their prices to that of my monthly water bill. But again, for those that must have or like to have their healthcare regimens inclusive of expensive lab tests, arranged for them, and for those too busy to do the research, this is one road.

Geron has applied for a patent for a TA-41 (perhaps a more stable form and precursor of TA-65..purportedly Cycloastragenol), and/ or for TA-65, and/or for Cycloastragenol (if cycloastragenol is not TA-65). In reading the UCLA data, Cycloastragenol seemed to be the thing that lead to telomere lengthening. In some exclusively Geron data, a precursor molecule, TA-41 was used. TA-41 at 20 mg will metabolize to TA-65 10 mg.

The above stuff is some of the data I used to decide upon using Revgenetics Cycloastragenol formulation 5 mg, taking 2 a day. I had my telomere length test done and will do the next one in about 6 months. I am doing a 3 month on/3 month off cycling. Supposedly lengthening keeps occurring during one's off cycle for a period of 3 months--I found that fascinating. So, I do not think I shall be using a resveratrol formulation during the off cycle.

I shall be doing this for a 2 year period if labtests are positive.

If two successive lab tests are not positive, and if there are no proven/or halfway proven alternatives (I consider TA-41/65/Cycloastragenol halfway proven) I will return to the original plan of a sensible diet and exercise program for life extension as being my only hope.

Happy New Year:)

Edited by Lesbure, 31 December 2009 - 12:11 PM.

[ascendedcobra]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! I just joined but have been reading for the past month. I just today recieved 4 bottles of Astral fruit c. I also have 2 more orders processing for 9 each ( to get the discount). I may order 9 more if you still got them in a week or two. As this will be a 2yr supply for my wife and I. I will go by your recomendation 1 wk astral fruit next wk resveratrol. I will take 2/day wife 1/day. My main question is do you think this is enough or should I go for the patton protocol? I have already met with Dr. Life here in Las Vegas and was planning on at least getting the pills only and telomere test. If TA-65 does work then its worth the money but if Astral fruit works also then why throw my money away when it is a bit of a stretch for me to do it. I know it is a lot to ask of you to compare your product honestly on a publi forum, but I dont want to waste my time with Astral fruit if it wont be effective for me. Not a big risk for you to say TA-65 works better as

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi ascendedcobra,

I am still continuing to do my telomere testing using cycloastragenol, since I started this last month. Remember Astragaloside IV was what I was using before, and the results of my lest tests only refer to A4.

I have not tested my telomeres while taking Cycloastragenol. Do I think Cycloastragenol is better and more effective than A4?
I am leaning that way.

Cheers
A

[ascendedcobra]

Hi ascendedcobra,

I am still continuing to do my telomere testing using cycloastragenol, since I started this last month. Remember Astragaloside IV was what I was using before, and the results of my lest tests only refer to A4.

I have not tested my telomeres while taking Cycloastragenol. Do I think Cycloastragenol is better and more effective than A4?
I am leaning that way.

Cheers
A

Thanks, and sorry for the doubble post. Network problems.
I am going to do the Astral Fruit.

[ascendedcobra]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! This my first post but have been reading for a while. Today I recieved my first shippment of Astral fruit C (4 bottles) I have 2 more orders processing for a total of 18. Trying to get a 2yr supply for me and my wife. My question is how does this product stack up to TA-65? Is it 1/4, 1/2 as good or not at all? My plan was to start the patton protocol this year or at least get the pills and do the telomere test. I was going to put my wife on Astral fruit while I tried TA-65 but since you have your sale I decided to do this and take 2 astral/day and micro resveratrol 500mg/day the next week that you say to do. Is 10mg enough or should I do the TA-65? I already met with DR. Life in Las Vegas about the patton protocol but that is a lot of money! I am 40yrs now and look and feel really young but I want whatever I am doing to be working. Also when is that master gene P 16 comming out?

I think Revgenetics C.Astragenol is 50% pure/Geron's-TA Science's TA-65 is 90% pure. This data was on the Revgen site in both of the links they use to the labs they used. I just take 2 of Revgenetics C.Astragenol a day. The price can't be beat, and they seem more straightforward than TA Sciences. And more inventive. And more transparent.

It's very confusing to me that TA Sciences is now using dosing that is the same dosing one uses for the Astragoloside IV compound.

In a previous post I wrote:


<I called 2 TA Sciences resources yesterday. They gave me the current protocol/'Patton Program' for using TA-65/Cylcoastragenol to lengthen telomeres. They start out at 25mg for a few days (7), then suggest 50mg for 3 months, then 100 mg for another 3 months. Then a break. The pulsatile/break thing is up for grabs at the moment as far as the best way to coax your telomeres to grow a bit and still have your cells be sensitive to this stimuli. After about a year on this regimen and the best-case scenario is that your telomeres have lengthened to the extent that you've gotten back a good decade of your life on earth.

I believe, since this company's initial program had dosing at 5 mg a day, that someone here was interested in knowing whether this new regimen offered a new 'molecule'. Well, if they did, a lot of people who are paying and considering paying 4k for every 6 months for the recommended 3 years of treatment for the least pricey plan wouldn't be happy. And even though some of these customers might be too busy to check, and some of these customers may not be knowledgeable labrats, some indeed aren't and are.

http://www.wipo.int/...mp;DISPLAY=DESC

The above link is from a Geron patent description. The best paragraph (as most best paragraphs are) is about 4/5 of the way down the page. It has to do with dosing--



<For treatment of a subject or patient, such as a mammal or a human patient, dosages are determined based on factors such as the weight
and overall health of the subject, the condition treated, severity of symptoms, etc. Dosages and concentrations are determined to
produce the desired benefit while avoiding any undesirable side effects. Typical dosages of the subject compounds are in the range
of about 0 5 to 500 mg/day for a human patient, preferably about 1-100 mg/day. For example, higher dose regimens
include e. g. 50-100,75-100, or 50-75 mg/day, and lower dose regimens include e. g. 1-50, 25-50, or 1-25 mg/day.
In specific embodiments, for example, the compound designated herein as 2 (cycloastragenol) is administered at a
level of at least 1 mg/day, preferably at least 5 mg/day; or the compound designated herein as 1 (astragaloside IV)
is administered at a level of at least 50 mg/day, preferably at least 100 mg/day. >



So, I personally think that TA is using Astral. IV. And they can do so, I suppose, because 'TA-65' is in it--somewhere. I haven't parsed their marketing, but I'm sure they have.

Their rationale may be that they are simply performing another leg of an IND type of experimentation (for another company). Just that I wouldn't expect a company who paid Geron for the use of its patented miracle to do this. Perhaps in using this form of the TA, they are trying to avoid serious side effects(ca)/lawsuits and providing a greater margin of safety. Their program would still be desired by those who would appreciate/need carriage-trade style care. >



I am worried about natural substances and extracts being able to be patented, yes, and about quite possibly having to spend a great deal to obtain an effective TA/telomerase activator. But, like yourself, I am most concerned with effectiveness.

TA Sciences' dramatic dose change in a working/effective drug/extract/product was a red flag to me. It should be to most people. I don't think I'd go to TA Sciences now if they dropped their prices to that of my monthly water bill. But again, for those that must have or like to have their healthcare regimens inclusive of expensive lab tests, arranged for them, and for those too busy to do the research, this is one road.

Geron has applied for a patent for a TA-41 (perhaps a more stable form and precursor of TA-65..purportedly Cycloastragenol), and/ or for TA-65, and/or for Cycloastragenol (if cycloastragenol is not TA-65). In reading the UCLA data, Cycloastragenol seemed to be the thing that lead to telomere lengthening. In some exclusively Geron data, a precursor molecule, TA-41 was used. TA-41 at 20 mg will metabolize to TA-65 10 mg.

The above stuff is some of the data I used to decide upon using Revgenetics Cycloastragenol formulation 5 mg, taking 2 a day. I had my telomere length test done and will do the next one in about 6 months. I am doing a 3 month on/3 month off cycling. Supposedly lengthening keeps occurring during one's off cycle for a period of 3 months--I found that fascinating. So, I do not think I shall be using a resveratrol formulation during the off cycle.

I shall be doing this for a 2 year period if labtests are positive.

If two successive lab tests are not positive, and if there are no proven/or halfway proven alternatives (I consider TA-41/65/Cycloastragenol halfway proven) I will return to the original plan of a sensible diet and exercise program for life extension as being my only hope.

Happy New Year:)

Thanks for all the good info. I have decided I am going to do the Astral fruit. Now you have me wondering if I should take Resveratrol every other week.

[Lesbure]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! This my first post but have been reading for a while. Today I recieved my first shippment of Astral fruit C (4 bottles) I have 2 more orders processing for a total of 18. Trying to get a 2yr supply for me and my wife. My question is how does this product stack up to TA-65? Is it 1/4, 1/2 as good or not at all? My plan was to start the patton protocol this year or at least get the pills and do the telomere test. I was going to put my wife on Astral fruit while I tried TA-65 but since you have your sale I decided to do this and take 2 astral/day and micro resveratrol 500mg/day the next week that you say to do. Is 10mg enough or should I do the TA-65? I already met with DR. Life in Las Vegas about the patton protocol but that is a lot of money! I am 40yrs now and look and feel really young but I want whatever I am doing to be working. Also when is that master gene P 16 comming out?

I think Revgenetics C.Astragenol is 50% pure/Geron's-TA Science's TA-65 is 90% pure. This data was on the Revgen site in both of the links they use to the labs they used. I just take 2 of Revgenetics C.Astragenol a day. The price can't be beat, and they seem more straightforward than TA Sciences. And more inventive. And more transparent.

It's very confusing to me that TA Sciences is now using dosing that is the same dosing one uses for the Astragoloside IV compound.

In a previous post I wrote:


<I called 2 TA Sciences resources yesterday. They gave me the current protocol/'Patton Program' for using TA-65/Cylcoastragenol to lengthen telomeres. They start out at 25mg for a few days (7), then suggest 50mg for 3 months, then 100 mg for another 3 months. Then a break. The pulsatile/break thing is up for grabs at the moment as far as the best way to coax your telomeres to grow a bit and still have your cells be sensitive to this stimuli. After about a year on this regimen and the best-case scenario is that your telomeres have lengthened to the extent that you've gotten back a good decade of your life on earth.

I believe, since this company's initial program had dosing at 5 mg a day, that someone here was interested in knowing whether this new regimen offered a new 'molecule'. Well, if they did, a lot of people who are paying and considering paying 4k for every 6 months for the recommended 3 years of treatment for the least pricey plan wouldn't be happy. And even though some of these customers might be too busy to check, and some of these customers may not be knowledgeable labrats, some indeed aren't and are.

http://www.wipo.int/...mp;DISPLAY=DESC

The above link is from a Geron patent description. The best paragraph (as most best paragraphs are) is about 4/5 of the way down the page. It has to do with dosing--



<For treatment of a subject or patient, such as a mammal or a human patient, dosages are determined based on factors such as the weight
and overall health of the subject, the condition treated, severity of symptoms, etc. Dosages and concentrations are determined to
produce the desired benefit while avoiding any undesirable side effects. Typical dosages of the subject compounds are in the range
of about 0 5 to 500 mg/day for a human patient, preferably about 1-100 mg/day. For example, higher dose regimens
include e. g. 50-100,75-100, or 50-75 mg/day, and lower dose regimens include e. g. 1-50, 25-50, or 1-25 mg/day.
In specific embodiments, for example, the compound designated herein as 2 (cycloastragenol) is administered at a
level of at least 1 mg/day, preferably at least 5 mg/day; or the compound designated herein as 1 (astragaloside IV)
is administered at a level of at least 50 mg/day, preferably at least 100 mg/day. >



So, I personally think that TA is using Astral. IV. And they can do so, I suppose, because 'TA-65' is in it--somewhere. I haven't parsed their marketing, but I'm sure they have.

Their rationale may be that they are simply performing another leg of an IND type of experimentation (for another company). Just that I wouldn't expect a company who paid Geron for the use of its patented miracle to do this. Perhaps in using this form of the TA, they are trying to avoid serious side effects(ca)/lawsuits and providing a greater margin of safety. Their program would still be desired by those who would appreciate/need carriage-trade style care. >



I am worried about natural substances and extracts being able to be patented, yes, and about quite possibly having to spend a great deal to obtain an effective TA/telomerase activator. But, like yourself, I am most concerned with effectiveness.

TA Sciences' dramatic dose change in a working/effective drug/extract/product was a red flag to me. It should be to most people. I don't think I'd go to TA Sciences now if they dropped their prices to that of my monthly water bill. But again, for those that must have or like to have their healthcare regimens inclusive of expensive lab tests, arranged for them, and for those too busy to do the research, this is one road.

Geron has applied for a patent for a TA-41 (perhaps a more stable form and precursor of TA-65..purportedly Cycloastragenol), and/ or for TA-65, and/or for Cycloastragenol (if cycloastragenol is not TA-65). In reading the UCLA data, Cycloastragenol seemed to be the thing that lead to telomere lengthening. In some exclusively Geron data, a precursor molecule, TA-41 was used. TA-41 at 20 mg will metabolize to TA-65 10 mg.

The above stuff is some of the data I used to decide upon using Revgenetics Cycloastragenol formulation 5 mg, taking 2 a day. I had my telomere length test done and will do the next one in about 6 months. I am doing a 3 month on/3 month off cycling. Supposedly lengthening keeps occurring during one's off cycle for a period of 3 months--I found that fascinating. So, I do not think I shall be using a resveratrol formulation during the off cycle.

I shall be doing this for a 2 year period if labtests are positive.

If two successive lab tests are not positive, and if there are no proven/or halfway proven alternatives (I consider TA-41/65/Cycloastragenol halfway proven) I will return to the original plan of a sensible diet and exercise program for life extension as being my only hope.

Happy New Year:)

Thanks for all the good info. I have decided I am going to do the Astral fruit. Now you have me wondering if I should take Resveratrol every other week.

CORRECTION

Yes, I'd take a cell-cycle inhibitor like resveratrol during your 'off' cycle. Telomeres do *not* continue to lengthen after ceasing cycloastragenol administration. My mis-read of data. The positive effects on tissues after the initial 'on' cycle do continue for months after the initial administration of cycloastragenol.

Read about the various resveratrol products on the market. The ones that actually activate the Sirt-1 gene would obviously be the best choice. Sirt-1 is the gene that is triggered in starvation. Many people have followed Caloric-Restriction-Adequate-Nutrition (CRAN) diets to maximize their lifespan because this tends to activate that gene. This gene seems to arrest the cellular life-cycle.

Do not be fooled by studies and research by others on the site of some vendors. Make sure that what *they* are selling activates the Sirt-1 gene. It would also help if you buy from the actual manufacturer of the product rather than a reseller.

Trans-resveratrol is the active form of reveratrol. It is what you are really buying, or wanting to buy. It is best packaged in a nitrogen licap, airtight packaging (to prevent oxidation) and with a very good emulsifier (tween aka polysorbate 80) to make delivery of the effective form of resveratrol, trans-resveratrol, the best it can be. To make absorption even better, try the buccal or sublingual route (pinprick or crack the capsule and place it under your tongue or in the lower cheek area of your mouth. Like red wine, the stuff on the inside of the capsule is messy, dark reddish-brown and stains. So be careful:) )

Edited by Lesbure, 02 January 2010 - 01:05 PM.

[kitinje]

I have not tested my telomeres while taking Cycloastragenol. Do I think Cycloastragenol is better and more effective than A4?
I am leaning that way.

Supposing TA-65 (5mg) is/was cycloastragenol, good news is that Spindler's laboratory did not report any toxicity.
Bad news could be that ta-65 feeded mice are not doing better than controls so far, could this be related with cycloastragenol/ta65 not being that effective in vivo?

Best way to answer this is waiting for your telomere test...
Do you take one or two pills per day?

[tintinet]

...Trans-resveratrol is the active form of reveratrol. It is what you are really buying, or wanting to buy. It is best packaged in a nitrogen licap, airtight packaging (to prevent oxidation) and with a very good emulsifier (tween aka polysorbate 80) to make delivery of the effective form of resveratrol, trans-resveratrol, the best it can be. To make absorption even better, try the buccal or sublingual route (pinprick or crack the capsule and place it under your tongue or in the lower cheek area of your mouth. Like red wine, the stuff on the inside of the capsule is messy, dark reddish-brown and stains. So be careful:) )

All the high purity trans-resveratrol I've seen has been white.

[ascendedcobra]

The new formulation is being worked on. However I would strongly recommend purchasing current cycloastragenol products available on the market if you find their current pricing is low.

Hi Anthony! This my first post but have been reading for a while. Today I recieved my first shippment of Astral fruit C (4 bottles) I have 2 more orders processing for a total of 18. Trying to get a 2yr supply for me and my wife. My question is how does this product stack up to TA-65? Is it 1/4, 1/2 as good or not at all? My plan was to start the patton protocol this year or at least get the pills and do the telomere test. I was going to put my wife on Astral fruit while I tried TA-65 but since you have your sale I decided to do this and take 2 astral/day and micro resveratrol 500mg/day the next week that you say to do. Is 10mg enough or should I do the TA-65? I already met with DR. Life in Las Vegas about the patton protocol but that is a lot of money! I am 40yrs now and look and feel really young but I want whatever I am doing to be working. Also when is that master gene P 16 comming out?

I think Revgenetics C.Astragenol is 50% pure/Geron's-TA Science's TA-65 is 90% pure. This data was on the Revgen site in both of the links they use to the labs they used. I just take 2 of Revgenetics C.Astragenol a day. The price can't be beat, and they seem more straightforward than TA Sciences. And more inventive. And more transparent.

It's very confusing to me that TA Sciences is now using dosing that is the same dosing one uses for the Astragoloside IV compound.

In a previous post I wrote:


<I called 2 TA Sciences resources yesterday. They gave me the current protocol/'Patton Program' for using TA-65/Cylcoastragenol to lengthen telomeres. They start out at 25mg for a few days (7), then suggest 50mg for 3 months, then 100 mg for another 3 months. Then a break. The pulsatile/break thing is up for grabs at the moment as far as the best way to coax your telomeres to grow a bit and still have your cells be sensitive to this stimuli. After about a year on this regimen and the best-case scenario is that your telomeres have lengthened to the extent that you've gotten back a good decade of your life on earth.

I believe, since this company's initial program had dosing at 5 mg a day, that someone here was interested in knowing whether this new regimen offered a new 'molecule'. Well, if they did, a lot of people who are paying and considering paying 4k for every 6 months for the recommended 3 years of treatment for the least pricey plan wouldn't be happy. And even though some of these customers might be too busy to check, and some of these customers may not be knowledgeable labrats, some indeed aren't and are.

http://www.wipo.int/...mp;DISPLAY=DESC

The above link is from a Geron patent description. The best paragraph (as most best paragraphs are) is about 4/5 of the way down the page. It has to do with dosing--



<For treatment of a subject or patient, such as a mammal or a human patient, dosages are determined based on factors such as the weight
and overall health of the subject, the condition treated, severity of symptoms, etc. Dosages and concentrations are determined to
produce the desired benefit while avoiding any undesirable side effects. Typical dosages of the subject compounds are in the range
of about 0 5 to 500 mg/day for a human patient, preferably about 1-100 mg/day. For example, higher dose regimens
include e. g. 50-100,75-100, or 50-75 mg/day, and lower dose regimens include e. g. 1-50, 25-50, or 1-25 mg/day.
In specific embodiments, for example, the compound designated herein as 2 (cycloastragenol) is administered at a
level of at least 1 mg/day, preferably at least 5 mg/day; or the compound designated herein as 1 (astragaloside IV)
is administered at a level of at least 50 mg/day, preferably at least 100 mg/day. >



So, I personally think that TA is using Astral. IV. And they can do so, I suppose, because 'TA-65' is in it--somewhere. I haven't parsed their marketing, but I'm sure they have.

Their rationale may be that they are simply performing another leg of an IND type of experimentation (for another company). Just that I wouldn't expect a company who paid Geron for the use of its patented miracle to do this. Perhaps in using this form of the TA, they are trying to avoid serious side effects(ca)/lawsuits and providing a greater margin of safety. Their program would still be desired by those who would appreciate/need carriage-trade style care. >



I am worried about natural substances and extracts being able to be patented, yes, and about quite possibly having to spend a great deal to obtain an effective TA/telomerase activator. But, like yourself, I am most concerned with effectiveness.

TA Sciences' dramatic dose change in a working/effective drug/extract/product was a red flag to me. It should be to most people. I don't think I'd go to TA Sciences now if they dropped their prices to that of my monthly water bill. But again, for those that must have or like to have their healthcare regimens inclusive of expensive lab tests, arranged for them, and for those too busy to do the research, this is one road.

Geron has applied for a patent for a TA-41 (perhaps a more stable form and precursor of TA-65..purportedly Cycloastragenol), and/ or for TA-65, and/or for Cycloastragenol (if cycloastragenol is not TA-65). In reading the UCLA data, Cycloastragenol seemed to be the thing that lead to telomere lengthening. In some exclusively Geron data, a precursor molecule, TA-41 was used. TA-41 at 20 mg will metabolize to TA-65 10 mg.

The above stuff is some of the data I used to decide upon using Revgenetics Cycloastragenol formulation 5 mg, taking 2 a day. I had my telomere length test done and will do the next one in about 6 months. I am doing a 3 month on/3 month off cycling. Supposedly lengthening keeps occurring during one's off cycle for a period of 3 months--I found that fascinating. So, I do not think I shall be using a resveratrol formulation during the off cycle.

I shall be doing this for a 2 year period if labtests are positive.

If two successive lab tests are not positive, and if there are no proven/or halfway proven alternatives (I consider TA-41/65/Cycloastragenol halfway proven) I will return to the original plan of a sensible diet and exercise program for life extension as being my only hope.

Happy New Year:)

Thanks for all the good info. I have decided I am going to do the Astral fruit. Now you have me wondering if I should take Resveratrol every other week.

CORRECTION

Yes, I'd take a cell-cycle inhibitor like resveratrol during your 'off' cycle. Telomeres do *not* continue to lengthen after ceasing cycloastragenol administration. My mis-read of data. The positive effects on tissues after the initial 'on' cycle do continue for months after the initial administration of cycloastragenol.

Read about the various resveratrol products on the market. The ones that actually activate the Sirt-1 gene would obviously be the best choice. Sirt-1 is the gene that is triggered in starvation. Many people have followed Caloric-Restriction-Adequate-Nutrition (CRAN) diets to maximize their lifespan because this tends to activate that gene. This gene seems to arrest the cellular life-cycle.

Do not be fooled by studies and research by others on the site of some vendors. Make sure that what *they* are selling activates the Sirt-1 gene. It would also help if you buy from the actual manufacturer of the product rather than a reseller.

Trans-resveratrol is the active form of reveratrol. It is what you are really buying, or wanting to buy. It is best packaged in a nitrogen licap, airtight packaging (to prevent oxidation) and with a very good emulsifier (tween aka polysorbate 80) to make delivery of the effective form of resveratrol, trans-resveratrol, the best it can be. To make absorption even better, try the buccal or sublingual route (pinprick or crack the capsule and place it under your tongue or in the lower cheek area of your mouth. Like red wine, the stuff on the inside of the capsule is messy, dark reddish-brown and stains. So be careful:) )

Well I was planning on just staying with Revgenetics for my resveratrol since I already got my 2yr supply of cycloastragenol from them. I got my first order fast and no problems. They seem to be dedicated to quality and safety and seem to be on the cutting edge. Also Anthony is testing it on himself. I am going to do the bulk powder as it seems like the best $ way to go.
Thanks for clearing that up.

[ascendedcobra]

I have not tested my telomeres while taking Cycloastragenol. Do I think Cycloastragenol is better and more effective than A4?
I am leaning that way.

Supposing TA-65 (5mg) is/was cycloastragenol, good news is that Spindler's laboratory did not report any toxicity.
Bad news could be that ta-65 feeded mice are not doing better than controls so far, could this be related with cycloastragenol/ta65 not being that effective in vivo?

Best way to answer this is waiting for your telomere test...
Do you take one or two pills per day?

I dont want to come off like an idiot as I dont know but I was thinking maybe a telomerase activator might actually be more effective on humans. My reasoning is that mice have such short life spans you dont have enough time to repair the damage. It might work too slow to help them. A human has over a year between cell divisions right? Does anyone know how many cell divisions mice have?

[kitinje]

Bill Andrews presentation @Logevity summit 2009 on telomerase activators (November 2009)

One of the world's leading scientists in the field of telomere biology explains the role telomeres play in cellular aging and the extensive discoveries his company has made and continues to make related to "telomerase," the enzyme that activates telomerase expression

: Part1, Sierra Sciences CEO Bill Andrews, Ph.D.

: Part2, Sierra Sciences CEO Bill Andrews, Ph.D.

: Part3, Sierra Sciences CEO Bill Andrews, Ph.D.

They are testing 33 telomerase inducers + TA65, he states it will take 15 years to get a drug through the FDA.
(but he did not deny the fact that it would be possible to get it prior of FDA approval)
I wonder why nobody did ask him if his telomeres got longer in 2 years of ta-65.

What i find interesting is that at a certain point he says that ta65 is a mild activator of telomerase, and in his opinion it would be more effective a high activator.

Edited by kitinje, 07 January 2010 - 09:07 PM.

[shawn]

Hi Anthony,
I have looked at your website and have been reading this thread.
I am wondering, instead of using ethanol have you looked into doing CO2 extraction?

[medievil]

Is there any reason to beleive why astral fruit shouldnt be taken togheter with resveratrol? As its being suggested to cycle every weak.

[Anthony_Loera]

resveratrol appears to inhibit telomerase