2189 replies to this topic

[GreenPower]

Greenpower: thanks for posting all this data.

Can you say what astragalus supplement you used? The only one I found which was listed as "0.5% glucosides, 70% polysaccharides" was Solgar SFP Astragalus (http://www.houseofnu...Vcaps&ovtac=CMP) but this is now listed on Solgar's site as "triterpene glycosides, 0.5%" (http://www.solgar.co...le-Capsules.htm). Now foods, on the other hand states that it is (Standardized to min. 70% Polysaccharides), but doesn't mention glucosides(http://www.nowfoods....%26%20Mushrooms).

Thanks in advance.

Ok, now I am now feeling kind of stupid. Especially after my remark that I prefer when the manufacturer write out in detail what's actually in their supplements. It would be nice if I actually read these details myself.

This is the content of the supplement I took some time before the baseline test: http://www.yournutri...exd.asp?id=2023

• Standardised Astragalus Root Extract (0.5% glucosides; 70% polysaccharides) 225mg
• Raw Astragalus Root Powder 250mg

Of this I am 100% certain, because I remember reading it directly from the label and writing it into post #287.

For the last six months I've been taking this supplement: http://www.solgarnor...ot+extract.html
Please note the label. Then compare it with the text besides the picture - the ingredients don't match. I therefore think they must have changed the description of the ingredients just recently and I didn't bother to look closely at the specification of the content. Therefore I've copy/pasted the contents from my old post (#287) into succeeding posts.

So apparently I was wrong. At the back of the bottle I'm holding in my hand they seem to have changed the formula to the following.

• Standardised Astragalus Root Powdered Extract (1mg [0.5%] triterpene glycolides) 225mg
• Raw Astragalus Root Powder 250mg

I think it's still the same glucosides, but that they now use the more specific name "triterpene glycolides" which I, in both cases, think is the same as saying it "contains all astragalosides between I and VII", without specifying the amounts for each type. But from the new label I think they no longer guarantee there will be 70% polysaccharides. Because it's better to "know" than to "think", I just dropped them a mail and asked them what the differences between them are.

I also mailed the Canadian lab and asked them about the error margin on the flow-FISH test. The answer was that they estimate their measurement error to be "around 0.3 kb for lymphocytes and 0.5 kb for granulocytes". I mailed them back and have asked for the error margin of the NK cells as well.

I will post the answers when I get them.

Edited by GreenPower, 11 December 2010 - 11:30 PM.

[JKDC]

Another supplement with 545mg Standardized Astragalus Extract that claims for min 0.5% glycosides and 70% polysaccharides http://www.healthaid...exd.aspx?id=432

I was thinking of taking this one. 12:1 concentrated so 8/day should be equivalent to 25 grams of raw extract. Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol should be present and get the benefits of each. About $24/month can't be beat.

http://www.iherb.com...Caps/15487?at=0

[smithx]

Another supplement with 545mg Standardized Astragalus Extract that claims for min 0.5% glycosides and 70% polysaccharides http://www.healthaid...exd.aspx?id=432

I was thinking of taking this one. 12:1 concentrated so 8/day should be equivalent to 25 grams of raw extract. Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol should be present and get the benefits of each. About $24/month can't be beat.

http://www.iherb.com...Caps/15487?at=0

Hmm... but how sure are we that it's 12:1 of all the important compounds? Obviously they are leaving out about 92% of the original raw root, so the question is: what are they leaving out and is it anything we care about?

[johnross47]

what is the current cost of telomere length tests? I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford it anyway but it's interesting to know. I've been using cycloastragenol combined with root powder. Planning to add carnosine next year....thinking about benfotiamine but still not sure.

[Anthony_Loera]

Telomere testing is probably about $800 now.

See the Repeat Diagnostics website:
http://repeatdiagnostics.com/


Regarding another question you had before about Bill Andrews:
I just got an email from Bill Andrews and he says he takes 4 capsules of the TA-65, and that he does not know what TA-65 is.
I think he is a good person, and will hopefully continue talking to him about a few things that may benefit both our companies.

Now if remember what each capsule contains from the COA found in this post, we can assume 5mg of Cycloastragenol per capsule:
http://www.imminst.o...post__p__436139

So it appears from the info I have gathered (Please correct me if I am wrong Noel) ...
1- That Bill maybe taking 20mg of Cycloastragenol tops (5mg per capsule).
2- It appears that TA-65 may in fact be a formulation and not really pure since the label states more than 5mg per capsule of 'TA-65'.
3- The label simply says astragalus root extract, and doesn't state that it contains any other active ingredient.


Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 December 2010 - 10:15 PM.

[johnross47]

http://www.spectrace...ere-testing.pdf

found this one on Google....the price is lower than Repeat Diagnostics....does anyone know anything about it?

[Anthony_Loera]

Spectracell is limited, I do not believe they use the Flow-FISH measurements and are less accurate.

In August of 2009 I asked the following from Robert at Spectracell:

Robert K. Slattery

Territory Manager SE Florida
SpectraCell Laboratories, Inc.
10401 Town Park Drive, Houston, TX USA 77072

Here are some questions for you:
=====================================================
1- What is the method called that you are using to test telomere length?

2- What is the standard deviation of measurements for the same cell type that is measured?

3- What type of cell will you be measuring? Total for lymphocyte and granulocyte populations, or also for B-cells, T-cells and NK cells?

4- I have had my blood tested using the Flow FISH method at repeat diagnostics.
Test 1: http://revgenetics.c...thony_Loera.pdf
Test 2: http://revgenetics.c...thony_Loera.pdf

Although the tests are accurate with a standard deviation of 0.1 kb according to the paperwork, They (RepeatDiagnostics) have told me over the phone that a variation of 0.5 kb is typical for different samples of blood. So here is my question: After I have my blood tested with Spectracell, If I came back in a few days with another another sample, would a change of 100 kb either way surprise you and what would be a normal variation between drawn blood samples: 0.1 kb, 0.5 kb, 10 kb, 50 kb, 100 kb, 300 kb, 500 kb, 700 kb?

5- If a healthy, normally aging person submitted five samples, a year apart, and you looked at the results with all date or age information removed, how confident are you that you could put them in the correct order? What about two or five years apart?

=====================================================

He never did answer these questions, or respond to my inquiry.

A

[omegaman]

Regarding another question you had before about Bill Andrews:
I just got an email from Bill Andrews and he says he takes 4 capsules of the TA-65, and that he does not know what TA-65 is.
I think he is a good person, and will hopefully continue talking to him about a few things that may benefit both our companies.

Now if remember what each capsule contains from the COA found in this post, we can assume 5mg of Cycloastragenol per capsule:
http://www.imminst.o...post__p__436139

So it appears from the info I have gathered (Please correct me if I am wrong Noel) ...
1- That Bill maybe taking 20mg of Cycloastragenol tops (5mg per capsule).
2- It appears that TA-65 may in fact be a formulation and not really pure since the label states more than 5mg per capsule of 'TA-65'.
3- The label simply says astragalus root extract, and doesn't state that it contains any other active ingredient.


Cheers
A

How can Bill Andrews not know what TA-65 is? His company Sierra Sciences tests thousands upon thousands of compounds to find telomerase activators. What are the odds that Bill Andrews who is taking TA-65 wouldn't be tempted to test TA-65 and find out what he is putting into his body? I'm not saying Bill Andrews is a liar, because he may well be a decent person and I don't know him personally to pass judgment on his character. But if I was CEO of Sierra Sciences and taking TA-65 I would love to know what I am taking. He is taking 4 capsules of TA-65 daily, right? How does he know 4 capsules daily is the even the correct dosage if he doesn’t know what it is? Of course Anthony had TA-65 tested and found it to be Cyloastragenol, even though because of the labelling TA-Sciences can change TA-65 into whatever they want at whatever dose per capsule. Even if I could afford to take TA-65 I wouldn't for the simple reason that I don't know what TA-65 is. It could be a sugar pill for all I know. What I do know is that Cycloastragenol is the most potent telomerase activator on the market and I wouldn't waste my money on anything else.

Also, Bill Andrews could be taking 20mg or 100mg of TA-65 nobody knows since some capsules could be 5mg and others 25mg according to another label that I've seen for TA-65, unless of course the capsules were 20mg of filler and 5mg of Cycloastragenol.

I get the feeling that TA-Sciences has different compounds and dosages that they call TA-65 like for example instead of Cycloastragenol it could be Astragaloside IV; so the 200 or so clients they've had over the past few years have either been taking a good product or an inferior product. Their secrecy and business model (including the ridiculous pricing for a nutraceutical) is destined to fail especially if Scierra Sciences comes out with a more potent product based on their scale of 0-100 for telomerase activation. I read a previous post where Scierra Sciences did test the efficacy of TA-65 and it didn't even register anything on their scale. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One more thing I am hopeful if Scierra Sciences does come out with a good product & that it will be affordable which I highly doubt since they've spent millions on research already. I feel unless it's affordable it will never catch on with the public especially since most people would rather take proven products for health and longevity that are cost effective. Let's get real here most people don't have a clue about telomerase and telomeres so there really isn't a large market for it.

I take Astral Fruit-NF RGTA™ Complex from Revgenetics ONLY because I know what I am taking and it's somewhat affordable; otherwise I'd be sitting on the fence waiting for an affordable and proven telomerase activating product to come along in like 15 or 20 years. The only drawback of Astral Fruit-NF RGTA™ Complex is that the daily dose of Cycloastragenol is 5mg daily and that dosage may not be enough to have any real effect, although I appreciate the value of the additional ingredients for telomere support.

[Chopperboy]

Regarding another question you had before about Bill Andrews:
I just got an email from Bill Andrews and he says he takes 4 capsules of the TA-65,

If Bill Andrews is so nice, did he happen to mention what the potent Telomerase activator was that his team discovered?

[mikeinnaples]

I take Astral Fruit-NF RGTA™ Complex from Revgenetics ONLY because I know what I am taking and it's somewhat affordable; otherwise I'd be sitting on the fence waiting for an affordable and proven telomerase activating product to come along in like 15 or 20 years. The only drawback of Astral Fruit-NF RGTA™ Complex is that the daily dose of Cycloastragenol is 5mg daily and that dosage may not be enough to have any real effect, although I appreciate the value of the additional ingredients for telomere support.

The doubling in price to get 5mg has put this past my affordability limit with my spouse out of work.

With that said, are there any other suppliers of the substance out there that are at least somewhat reliable with a better price point? If Not, I am probably going to have to hit up some of the better Astragalus supplements.

[Anthony_Loera]

Regarding another question you had before about Bill Andrews:
I just got an email from Bill Andrews and he says he takes 4 capsules of the TA-65,

If Bill Andrews is so nice, did he happen to mention what the potent Telomerase activator was that his team discovered?

Nope, that continues to be proprietary information.

Cheers
A

[Anthony_Loera]

There is an interesting discussion going on somewhere else.

However I have to cut out a particular piece by Stuart LaForge that I found interesting. The discussion is not related to supplements of any kind, but I believe the immunosurveillance item needed to be mentioned here on this thread. This quote appears to fit very well here in this thread regarding telomerase:

This process is called immunosurveillance and mice and people with defective immune systems are notoriously prone
to cancer. The white blood cells that normally protect people from cancer *need* telomerase to function properly
because the mechanism by which they operate depends on the mass replication of the white blood cell lineages that
can recognize and kill tumor cells.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1857231/

Of course this mechanism of amplification of the efficacious clones is used to combat mundane infections as well.
So not only would telomerase-deficiency make one prone to cancer, it would make one susceptible to death from
normally benign viral, bacterial, and fungal infections.

Cheers
A

[GreenPower]

I see that TA Sciences now have the following dose recommendations for TA65 posted on their website.
# 250 units (1 capsule daily)
# 500 units (2 capsules daily)
# 1000 units (4 capsules daily)

They don't specify what a "unit" is, but "mg" wouldn't be compatible with the doses which have been discussed for neither AIV nor Cycloastragenol. If we divide the number with 10, it would however be compatible with with the doses which have been discussed for AIV (25mg-100mg). If we divide it with 100 it would be compatible with the doses which have been discussed for Cycloastragenol (2.5mg-10mg). It might also just be an attempt to confuse or obfuscate people on what TA65 actually is, and that the numbers have no relation at all to what's in TA65.

I've now started taking Cycloastragenol again and have decided to step up the dose to 3x5mg = 15mg/day. This would mean I will use what I thought was to be an 18 month supply (5mg/day) in six months. If Cycloastragenol works as generally believed, this should show a result on my next flow-FISH measurement.

[GreenPower]

Spectracell is limited, I do not believe they use the Flow-FISH measurements and are less accurate.

In August of 2009 I asked the following from Robert at Spectracell:

Robert K. Slattery

Territory Manager SE Florida
SpectraCell Laboratories, Inc.
10401 Town Park Drive, Houston, TX USA 77072

Here are some questions for you:
=====================================================
1- What is the method called that you are using to test telomere length?

2- What is the standard deviation of measurements for the same cell type that is measured?

3- What type of cell will you be measuring? Total for lymphocyte and granulocyte populations, or also for B-cells, T-cells and NK cells?

4- I have had my blood tested using the Flow FISH method at repeat diagnostics.
Test 1: http://revgenetics.c...thony_Loera.pdf
Test 2: http://revgenetics.c...thony_Loera.pdf

Although the tests are accurate with a standard deviation of 0.1 kb according to the paperwork, They (RepeatDiagnostics) have told me over the phone that a variation of 0.5 kb is typical for different samples of blood. So here is my question: After I have my blood tested with Spectracell, If I came back in a few days with another another sample, would a change of 100 kb either way surprise you and what would be a normal variation between drawn blood samples: 0.1 kb, 0.5 kb, 10 kb, 50 kb, 100 kb, 300 kb, 500 kb, 700 kb?

5- If a healthy, normally aging person submitted five samples, a year apart, and you looked at the results with all date or age information removed, how confident are you that you could put them in the correct order? What about two or five years apart?

=====================================================

He never did answer these questions, or respond to my inquiry.

A

I couldn't help notice how you formulated question number 2. The answer to this would depend on the results from your sample and be individual for each person and test. That means that the "Standard Deviation" does not have anything to do with how exact the test results was, but instead describes the variation in length of the telomeres they have measured in your particular sample.

Personally I wouldn't trust a company that don't answer mail communication to be able to communicate the results back to me.

[GreenPower]

what is the current cost of telomere length tests? I'm pretty sure I couldn't afford it anyway but it's interesting to know. I've been using cycloastragenol combined with root powder. Planning to add carnosine next year....thinking about benfotiamine but still not sure.

Basic test (Lymphocytes and Granulocytes) - $400
Detailed Procedure (Lymphocytes, Granulocytes, Naïve T cells, Memory T cells, B cells, NK cells) - $800
Detailed Procedure + Standard Deviation - $1.200

It's not cheap, but fortunately the dollar is quite low at the moment. In my own currency I think I paid about 25% less than I did last time.

The more people doing these tests and publishing their results, the more we can start to trust the results.

[Anthony_Loera]

Ok, here goes again...

It might also just be an attempt to confuse or obfuscate people on what TA65 actually is, and that the numbers have no relation at all to what's in TA65.

According to the label on the bottle:
1mg of TA-65 = 31 units, so it appears you need to divide by 31, not 10.

Lets see... 250/31 = 8.06mg
However the COA shown previously did not show 8mg of Cycloastragenol, it was closer to 5mg, which leads me to believe that the current formulation maybe around 60% to 70% pure, and not 100% pure.

Isn't marketing neat?
I think you are on to something when you talked about obfuscation GreenPower. I didn't even think to look for the definition of the 31 units on the label until you mentioned units in your post.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 15 December 2010 - 01:00 AM.

[JKDC]

Another supplement with 545mg Standardized Astragalus Extract that claims for min 0.5% glycosides and 70% polysaccharides http://www.healthaid...exd.aspx?id=432

I was thinking of taking this one. 12:1 concentrated so 8/day should be equivalent to 25 grams of raw extract. Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol should be present and get the benefits of each. About $24/month can't be beat.

http://www.iherb.com...Caps/15487?at=0

Hmm... but how sure are we that it's 12:1 of all the important compounds? Obviously they are leaving out about 92% of the original raw root, so the question is: what are they leaving out and is it anything we care about?

In theory we don't know what any of the products actually have in them unless it has been tested. It says below it is extracted in their natural ratio. It doesn't state whether it is water or ethanol extraction though. It is the most concentrated extract that I have found so far. I think I will wait and see what Sierra Sciences comes out with before I decide. I already take over $200/month in supplements and don't want to add any more right now. Especially since it is recommended not to take green tea,curcumin,resveratrol with it and I take them every day. Although that could be a dubious recommendation since those observations were based on cancer cells and not healthy cells with a little telomerase activity.

"Paradise Astragalus root is a True Full Spectrum 12:1 potent concentration. It is naturally extracted without the use of toxic solvents, harsh chemicals or fractionizing gases to ensure all active and synergistic constituents are present in the balanced ratio nature intended."

[Gern]

NK cells: 4.1-5.9 = Increase of 1.8 kb

Thanks for posting the info and Wow, that's quite a jump.

I have been taking Astral Fruit for a couple months now. I looked into testing and choked a bit on the price. I think it had gone up a bit from earlier posts. I still intend to do the testing after the first of the year, but it would have been more interesting to have a baseline prior to taking anything.

[niner]

"Paradise Astragalus root is a True Full Spectrum 12:1 potent concentration. It is naturally extracted without the use of toxic solvents, harsh chemicals or fractionizing gases to ensure all active and synergistic constituents are present in the balanced ratio nature intended."

That's marketing talk. Nature wasn't "intending" anyone to consume the plant; many of the substances are there specifically because they deter animals and microbes from eating it. It sounds like they used a water or steam extraction procedure. Somehow I doubt that it extracts all constituents in the exact proportion in which they exist in the plant; I don't see how else nature would have "intended" us to consume it.

[mrkosh1]

I sure hope that Sierra Science's new telomerase inducer that is 6 times as potent as astragaloside is purslane.

Edited by mrkosh1, 17 December 2010 - 02:52 AM.

[mrkosh1]

I have a question for everyone.

Lets say that astragaloside increased the total population doublings of a cell from 50 to 55.

Lets say it did this over a period of a month.

If we slowed down the rate of population doublings would the total population doublings increase?

I think it would because the telomeres would have more time to grow.

The reason I ask is because even if a substance does not produce enough telomerase to immortalize a cell that is doubling very quickly it might be enough to immortalize a cell that is doubling slowly.

Edited by mrkosh1, 17 December 2010 - 03:08 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

I have been taking Astral Fruit for a couple months now. I looked into testing and choked a bit on the price. I think it had gone up a bit from earlier posts.

Double.

[mikeinnaples]

I sure hope that Sierra Science's new telomerase inducer that is 6 times as potent as astragaloside is purslane.

That makes two of us.

[adamh]

I'm from the old school which says get it from the source and the less processed the better. I do take a cheapo astragalus extract, probably 20 times cheaper than a well known branded extract. But I also take a tablespoon of shredded astragalus root every day. It doesn't taste that bad at all. I chew and swallow with water, no problem. I figure whatever the extract missed, I'll get from the raw root and maybe the extract does do some good so I'm covered both ways. Any flaw in my reasoning?

[GreenPower]

I have a question for everyone.

Lets say that astragaloside increased the total population doublings of a cell from 50 to 55.

Lets say it did this over a period of a month.

If we slowed down the rate of population doublings would the total population doublings increase?

I think it would because the telomeres would have more time to grow.

The reason I ask is because even if a substance does not produce enough telomerase to immortalize a cell that is doubling very quickly it might be enough to immortalize a cell that is doubling slowly.

Interesting thought which might be reformulated like this in order to be implemented on my test results.
Let's say that for example NK cells produces a low amount of telomerase. Let's also say that some kind of stressor makes the NK cells increase their rate of population divisions. The low amount of telomerase would then not be able to compensate for the increased rate in cell division and the telomeres would then decrease in size.

Let's then assume that we removed the stressor and imposed some additional anti-stressor-measure (meditation, extra sleep, some kind of pill, etc) which would
a) not just return the cell division rate to its baseline value, but also slow down the rate of cell divisions
b) also keep the amount of telomerase at its original level and not increase it.

Assuming that telomerase can extend the telomeres in other stages in the cells life cycle than just the actual division of the cell, I think this hypothesis would pass the test of being logical consistent.

Of course it would need to be validated by some kind of test. I would guess that the slow rate of cell divisions would mean that the concentration of NK cells in the blood would decrease. I read this article a couple of years ago which gives a reference to a lab which perform CD57 tests for people with Lyme disease ( http://sci.tech-arch...4/msg00280.html ) and which I think could be used in order to validate the hypothesis.

Edited by GreenPower, 17 December 2010 - 08:44 PM.

[omegaman]

I sure hope that Sierra Science's new telomerase inducer that is 6 times as potent as astragaloside is purslane.

Are you in the know? What makes you think purslane is the nutraceutical that Sierra Sciences is going to bring to market? Astral Fruit already has purslane in it's formulation, so if that's Sierra Sciences new product what makes them think they can license it out?

Can anyone test purslane and identify the molecule responsible for telomerase activation/support and confirm it's potency?

[RCW]

...
Now another piece of interesting news. My wife is also on this regimen. She is 61 and hasn't had a period in 11 years. Well, last month she experienced sensations she associates with ovulation and two weeks later had a period. Not heavy but it ran a normal course of about a week. Frankly she is a little worried about it so she was wondering if you have heard of such a thing. But she is also feeling younger.

As you can imagine we're a bit fascinated with all this. Any further information you might have would be appreciated.

And thanks for all your good work.

Any physician will tell you with alarm that this is impossible, and would begin screening for uterine cancer or other anomolies. When menopause is complete, about age 50 to 53, the eggs are gone, the ovaries empty. A female is born with a set number of eggs, and once gone, they are gone.

Perhaps medical wisdom is wrong, or perhaps the condition is hormonal without ovulation. Could her hormonal levels have been rejuvenated? If so vaginal dryness will be diminished too.

If I were your wife, I would have a doctor check it out just in case.

Thought I would report back on this.

We did go to the Dr. He tested her FSH, LH, estradiol, testosterone and did a Pap Smear. Everything was completely normal.

Our doctor uses hormones including HGH. He said about 25% of his post-menopausal women get a resumption of menses for a month or two and then they cease again. He considered it completely normal. While my wife was waiting for results she ceased taking AstralFruit-NF and the menses stopped. She has since resumed and had very minor spotting for a week or two but that has now ceased as well.

As a side note I traded the doctor a bottle of AstralFruit-NF for an office visit. The next time I saw him he said, “That stuff is fantastic. It’s like being on speed. I’ve taken a lot of stuff and I can’t be fooled. The one day I didn’t take it I realized how tired I had been feeling.” Interesting…

And finally I’m still taking the old formula one day and the –NF the second day. A noticeable energy difference between the two (higher for -NF). A month ago I laid off for 3 days and had a very noticeable energy sag. I saw in the reports from TA that people were reporting higher energy levels as well.

[johnross47]

I was horrified when I saw how much it cost with postage for my last bottle of Astral Fruit NF. I'm going to have to join the astragalus extract club. Considering we have no data on the effects of this formula the price is just too high.

[Anthony_Loera]

You can also join Imminst.org and get a paying member discount.

A

[mikeinnaples]

You can also join Imminst.org and get a paying member discount.

A

What is the discount and how much of the doubling of your prices does it counteract?