2189 replies to this topic

[Robert89]

2- Again, you cannot assume that a 20:1 natural extract has such an enormous amount of A4, without spiking it. Even chinese standards of astragalus extraction have a tiny amount of A4 (see the end of the standards paper attached called 'Radix_Astragali"). This leads me to believe the product is spiked with a material of higher purity that infringes on Geron's patent. Heck even without the marketing baloney, I can read the label now... and know that this product infringes on the Geron patent.

...

What I don't understand is this reference to Geron's patent. Are you saying that Geron own's the patent for all products on the market that have A4 or cycloastragenol, or astragalus with A4 or cycloastragenol or other ingredients combined together? Are you sure this is true? It seems remarkable you can patent a naturally occurring plant and it's derivatives. Does that mean Vitamin C is patented by someone as well, since it's derived from oranges? If that's the case, Geron's claim sounds a bit outlandish.

Curious about that myself. Haven't read Geron's patent but generally under US law you can patent a synthetic molecule, a process, or a formulation. If its both new and not obvious. In the case of adding cycloastragenol and/or astragaloside IV to astragalus root, that sounds more like an astragalus extract standardized on its own naturally occurring components as opposed to a formulation. My own perception is that the concept of a standardized extract is so commonly employed these days that it wouldn't be a very defensible patent candidate. Even if it was considered a formulation, varying ratios a small amount would probably defeat the patent. My own sense is that formulation patents are so indefensible that most companies tend to rely more on keeping their formulations a secret. And try to stymie competition that way. I think a process patent would hold up better. But that's not something the product label would tell you.

Howard

Thanks for your thoughts Howard. It's interesting that patents can get granted for naturally occuring substances and extraction processes that were in the public domain. But they aren't defendable. Maybe in this case, it's a moot point.

[johnross47]

I'm using nothing in the off periods. I've never been convinced by resveratrol; the story keeps changing and that's not a good sign in my book. I've been reading up on curcumin and am coming round to trying it. Particularly since I've seen articles on it and prostate.

[johnross47]

In terms of TA Sciences telling us that there was or wasn't an increase in cancer or illness - I wouldn't want to trust them with my life either. These people aren't even from a research background. Half the people in the 'clinical trial' they did for 3 years dropped out. Those people dropped out because they weren't happy with TA-65.

My memory is that their report on the trials said there was no statistically significant increase in cancer. This has always seemed slightly suspicious to me. It is closer to, there was a non significant increase, than, there was no increase. Any increase is a bad thing in my body.

Edited by Michael, 25 May 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[AdamI]

I'm using nothing in the off periods. I've never been convinced by resveratrol; the story keeps changing and that's not a good sign in my book. I've been reading up on curcumin and am coming round to trying it. Particularly since I've seen articles on it and prostate.

Curcumin is great, since I have started taking it I sleep 1-2 hours less and is always much clearer in the head.
See to it that you get a good curcumin with high purity, most doesn't tell the purity I have noticed.
My whole family have the same experience... not the reduction in sleep though as far as I know it just me and my brother.
45% life span increase in simpler animals/organisms.
Thioflavin-T (ThT) is more potent though gives 89% increase in study, in that study it was also said that it might be even more effective in more compley organisms such as humans. Since more complex organism have better repairing mechanisms.
I think the study also said that Curcumin and Thioflavin-T might not work in the same way. Which most think they do since both are dye.

[johnross47]

Thanks. I'll look all that up and maybe start on it.

[GregLong]

"I have now stopped all forms of astragalus, AG4 and won't be taking cycloastragenol either. This new research really is not a good sign."

Ditto.I am also putting my Cycloastragenol-Astragalus regimen on hiatus. I hope there is a counter argument to this troubling study.

[hav]

...
I have now stopped all forms of astragalus, AG4 and won't be taking cycloastragenol either. This new research really is not a good sign.

I also contacted a friend of mine, who is a US registered Chinese medicine practitioner - specializing in herbs. He told me to STOP taking Astragalus (or any derivatives of) UNLESS it was for a short term specific use. (Such as a problem with the immune system). He said it would lead to internal pain (abdomen area) - and that this medicine was only prescribed for short term use in the Traditional Chinese use. My guess is that the Chinese knew something that the West doesn't. This stuff comes with a warning attached - when used in the traditional sense.
...

I got a somewhat different message after reading about that study. Primary is that it might be a really bad idea to take any telomerase activator if you already have prostate cancer. And given that prostate cancer incidence in men jumps pretty significantly after age 55, males over that age should probably be careful starting a telomerase activation program if they have not had a prostate exam. Keeping in mind that on the other hand that telomere maintenance might prevent the onset of prostate cancer in the first place.

The other big thing I got from the article concerned the genetic engineering they did on the mice. They knocked out the p53 and pten genes to encourage tumor growth. Suggesting that anyone lacking those genes would be spot on to experience the study results. Sounds like a good motivator to sign up for pgp to make sure you're not in that boat. But my impression is that's pretty rare. On the flip side, however, this suggests that for the bulk of the population with those genes, it might be a really good idea to work some p53 and pten activators into your program with common supplements like resveratrol, luteolin, quercetin, and curcumin. Or some less familiar ones like genistein, daedzein, honokiol or perhaps the drug rapamycin.

I've been getting prostate exams annually since I was about 40 and I cycle telomerase activators weekly with resveratrol related supplements. But I still have not signed up for pgp. I should probably get on that.

Howard

[Anthony_Loera]

Lots of things on this post:

1- Genetically engineered mice specifically to promote cancer through telomerase dysfunction and permanently knocking our tumor suppressors p53 and pten does not provide useful data for transient telomerase. This is a non-issue, because of the original xenograph tests provided earlier in this thread and because later tests in 2011 by Maria Blasco (not TA Sciences) who is an expert in the field suggest no increase in cancer incidence. The study was made to understand the progression of cancer, and does not show that any transient telomerase activators will have the same effect. in the journal Aging Cell led by investigators Maria Blasco and Calvin Harley, the investigators demonstrated that telomerase activator TA-65 elongates telomeres and increases health span of old mice without increasing the cancer incidence (Aging Cell March 2011, pp 1-18)




2- Resveratrol activates P53, so yes do take it.
http://www.nature.co...cgt201044a.html
http://www.sciencedi...006291X05012945
http://www.biomedcen...71-2407/10/238/

3- Curcumin activates P53, so take it as well...
http://www.nature.co...s/5600153a.html
http://ar.iiarjourna...24/2B/987.short

A

[Robert89]

1- Genetically engineered mice specifically to promote cancer through telomerase dysfunction and permanently knocking our tumor suppressors p53 and pten does not provide useful data for transient telomerase. This is a non-issue, because of the original xenograph tests provided earlier in this thread and because later tests in 2011 by Maria Blasco (not TA Sciences) who is an expert in the field suggest no increase in cancer incidence. The study was made to understand the progression of cancer, and does not show that any transient telomerase activators will have the same effect. in the journal Aging Cell led by investigators Maria Blasco and Calvin Harley, the investigators demonstrated that telomerase activator TA-65 elongates telomeres and increases health span of old mice without increasing the cancer incidence (Aging Cell March 2011, pp 1-18)

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

[Louis]

These studies cited here add to the steadily increasing collection of literature that points to short telomeres being the real bad guy when it comes to cancer -- in large part because the chromosome becomes unstable and the DNA mutation rate then correspondingly increases dramatically.

Most of this literature pointing to short telomeres being the real bad guy when it comes to cancer has only really come out in the last two years.

It's all very good news for those of us taking telomerase activators who are worried about a theoretical increase in cancer risk. Not to say that the theoretical increase in cancer risk is not a real danger, but most of the literature in the last 2 years is pointing to short telomeres being the real fundamental danger. It then follows that keeping your telomeres from getting critically short in the first place may in fact prevent cancer.

Interestingly, the debate between Michael West and Bill Andrews in Life Extension magazine was published longer than 2 years ago. Taking into account the newer literature in the last 2 years, Mike West's case that activating telomerase will cause cancer is now weaker IMO (and Bill Andrew's case is a lot longer). Still we should all proceed with caution, as all this research is extremely early stage.

[hav]

Been digging a little more into this and it looks like a lack of the pten gene may not be as rare as I thought. Apparently there is a phenomenon called pten deletion that destroys the pten gene in about 40% of human prostate cancer cases:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22045666

But the good news is that resveratrol is indeed a pten activator and perhaps also protects it from deletion:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....55/?tool=pubmed

Resveratrol has been shown to exhibit several potential chemoprotective activities in cell and animal models [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], including inhibition of PI3K/AKT pathway [2], [6], [8], [10]. We have recently demonstrated that resveratol enhances therapeutic potential of TRAIL by upregulating death receptors (TRAIL/DR4 and TRAIL-R2/DR5) and also engaging mitochondrial pathway of apoptosis [2], [3]. Deletion or mutation of PTEN has been the main cause for constitutively active AKT leading to prostate carcinogenesis in humans [11], [12]. Thus, resveratrol may be potential candidate to target cells with PTEN deletion or inactivation and enhanced AKT activity in precancerous prostate tissue.

And almost directly on point: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19326431

Liposome encapsulation of curcumin and resveratrol in combination reduces prostate cancer incidence in PTEN knockout mice.

So my plan is to continue cycling telomerase activators with resveratrol while keeping up on prostate exams.

Howard

Edited by hav, 22 February 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Louis]

"I have now stopped all forms of astragalus, AG4 and won't be taking cycloastragenol either. This new research really is not a good sign."

Ditto.I am also putting my Cycloastragenol-Astragalus regimen on hiatus. I hope there is a counter argument to this troubling study.

You're completely misinterpreting the study.

This study is extremely good news when it comes to telomerase activation and cancer. And it's backed up with multiple other studies in the last 2 years which say essentially the same thing. The real danger is chromosomal instability, and that's exactly what a telomerase activator prevents. A cancer cell requires multiple serious mutations to occur in order for it to permanently turn on telomerase. By preventing chromosomal instability in the first place, you are significantly reducing the probabillity that such dangerous mutations will occur.

That's how I interpret this study (and the others like it in the last 2 years).

[Anthony_Loera]

1- Genetically engineered mice specifically to promote cancer through telomerase dysfunction and permanently knocking our tumor suppressors p53 and pten does not provide useful data for transient telomerase. This is a non-issue, because of the original xenograph tests provided earlier in this thread and because later tests in 2011 by Maria Blasco (not TA Sciences) who is an expert in the field suggest no increase in cancer incidence. The study was made to understand the progression of cancer, and does not show that any transient telomerase activators will have the same effect. in the journal Aging Cell led by investigators Maria Blasco and Calvin Harley, the investigators demonstrated that telomerase activator TA-65 elongates telomeres and increases health span of old mice without increasing the cancer incidence (Aging Cell March 2011, pp 1-18)

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

I am beta-tasting a new product ill call ... iceberg for now.

I do believe it increases telomere length in immune cells.

A

[zorba990]

1- Genetically engineered mice specifically to promote cancer through telomerase dysfunction and permanently knocking our tumor suppressors p53 and pten does not provide useful data for transient telomerase. This is a non-issue, because of the original xenograph tests provided earlier in this thread and because later tests in 2011 by Maria Blasco (not TA Sciences) who is an expert in the field suggest no increase in cancer incidence. The study was made to understand the progression of cancer, and does not show that any transient telomerase activators will have the same effect. in the journal Aging Cell led by investigators Maria Blasco and Calvin Harley, the investigators demonstrated that telomerase activator TA-65 elongates telomeres and increases health span of old mice without increasing the cancer incidence (Aging Cell March 2011, pp 1-18)

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

I am beta-tasting a new product ill call ... iceberg for now.

I do believe it increases telomere length in immune cells.

A

What happened to the epitalon results? Any word?

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Zorba, sorry...not yet.

[Googoltarian]

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

I am beta-tasting a new product ill call ... iceberg for now.

I do believe it increases telomere length in immune cells.

A

It reminds me of how politician or a salesman answer questions - evading answering your question directly, and smuggling in their agenda... and later denying that he was not sincere.

[Anthony_Loera]

I am beta-tasting a new product ill call ... iceberg for now.

I do believe it increases telomere length in immune cells.

A

It reminds me of how politician or a salesman answer questions - evading answering your question directly, and smuggling in their agenda... and later denying that he was not sincere.

Goog,

It's ok if you don't like my answer.
The fact is that I am am darn sincere about not providing you info when I am not ready to.

Cheers

A

[Nick Ryan]

@Knowledgeable persons:

Greetings, I'm new to this forum and have recently become intensely interested in this subject matter.

Excuse my ignorance and laziness, but if I could solicit advice from you, I would greatly appreciate it.

In your experience and according to what you know- as a person who has theoretically suffered telomere shortening due to the drug Accutane, what would be my best course of action in regards to supplements or regime? A few things have been listed here, but as far as efficacy and safety and efficiency, what would you recommend?

Thanks for your time

N

Edited by Nick Ryan, 24 February 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Robert89]

1- Genetically engineered mice specifically to promote cancer through telomerase dysfunction and permanently knocking our tumor suppressors p53 and pten does not provide useful data for transient telomerase. This is a non-issue, because of the original xenograph tests provided earlier in this thread and because later tests in 2011 by Maria Blasco (not TA Sciences) who is an expert in the field suggest no increase in cancer incidence. The study was made to understand the progression of cancer, and does not show that any transient telomerase activators will have the same effect. in the journal Aging Cell led by investigators Maria Blasco and Calvin Harley, the investigators demonstrated that telomerase activator TA-65 elongates telomeres and increases health span of old mice without increasing the cancer incidence (Aging Cell March 2011, pp 1-18)

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

I am beta-tasting a new product ill call ... iceberg for now.

I do believe it increases telomere length in immune cells.

A

Sorry, maybe I wasn't being clear. I meant to ask if you were still monitoring your own telomere length via testing, as you were at the start of this thread? Do you take TA-65/ cycloastragenol? If you are or were, what were the results of your consumption?
Thank you.

PS - I don't mean to put you on the spot like this, but to be fair, if something you are selling or supporting on the internet like this doesn't really work, then you should just say so, people will have more respect for you. And you can move onto selling something else.

Besides, there has been new research to indicate that extending telomeres this way, might not actually be good for a person. If that is the case, then again, be honest about it and don't endanger peoples health this way. We will all respect you more for being honest. This respect is good karma for you.

Peace.

Edited by Robert89, 24 February 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't being clear. I meant to ask if you were still monitoring your own telomere length via testing, as you were at the start of this thread? Do you take TA-65/ cycloastragenol? If you are or were, what were the results of your consumption?
Thank you.

PS - I don't mean to put you on the spot like this, but to be fair, if something you are selling or supporting on the internet like this doesn't really work, then you should just say so, people will have more respect for you. And you can move onto selling something else.

Question:
Are you were still monitoring your own telomere length via testing?

Answer:
I used to do it every 6 months. Now I am doing it every 2 years for my personal health.

Question:
Do you take TA-65/ cycloastragenol?

Answer:
I take a 90:1 Astragalus extract with a few additional ingredients not found in Astragalus...I have specifically had made the extract to my specs regarding A4 and Cycloastragenol content (yes as a manufacturer I can do this). I have had it micronized on top of it, and... the stuff tastes nasty like if your neighbors wet dog that has put on my brothers sweaty socks jumped in and took a bath in my concoction... but I noticed a few interesting things about the material that have me thinking about other applications...

However I have found another potential candidate we are calling Iceberg that is not from the Astragalus plant, which may replace my telomerase activator regimen entirely. We are still testing it out.

Question:
If you are or were, what were the results of your consumption?

Answer:
The only results I have made public are in this thread. I am not ready to provide new ones to the public.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 24 February 2012 - 08:03 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Besides, there has been new research to indicate that extending telomeres this way, might not actually be good for a person. If that is the case, then again, be honest about it and don't endanger peoples health this way. We will all respect you more for being honest. This respect is good karma for you.

What research shows that taking a telomerase activator like Cyclo, A4, or TA-65 shows it might not be good for a person?
II have not seen it, please post the research regarding telomerae activators, that you say shows this.

As far as I am concerned transient telomerase activators have positive studies. I have not seen a negative study yet.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 24 February 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Nick Ryan]

Besides, there has been new research to indicate that extending telomeres this way, might not actually be good for a person. If that is the case, then again, be honest about it and don't endanger peoples health this way. We will all respect you more for being honest. This respect is good karma for you.

What research shows that taking a telomerase activator like Cyclo, A4, or TA-65 shows it might not be good for a person?
II have not seen it, please post the research regarding telomerae activators, that you say shows this.

As far as I am concerned transient telomerase activators have positive studies. I have not seen a negative study yet.

A

I agree with this.

Was it decided that Revital-TA was a good supplement to take, or are there better ones?

Thanks,
N

[AdamI]

Don't think there was anything decided, since some people disagree that it contains what it claims to contain... I still bought it though, but got stuck in the customs, think the customs returned it to canada, according to the tracker.

[Anthony_Loera]

... are there better ones?

Thanks,
N

Well... here goes:

• If you want, hands down the one product with more lab studies behind it, then choose TA-65, which is considered the standard and what all others are tested against (and failed to beat, so far).
• If you have some cash, try many of the 20% to 98% cyloastragenol or A4 products on the market while they are available, since many at this purity are considered to be infringing on Geron's patent. Hey, I just tell it like it is, don't get silly or mad at me. The fact is that If Geron flexes it's legal arm, these may vanish at the drop of a hat.
• If you have no cash to spare, but want something that may work, buy Astragalus Extract at a 50:1 or 20:1, and take 10 grams or more a day.
• Or...Buy our product code named "Iceberg" when it comes out. :D
• If you simply can't buy anything on your budget... then Telomerase healthy activators may not be available for you. Unhealthy telomere activators like nicotine can still produce byproducts while being metabolized that can cause cancer. Instead take vitamins and foods that have shown telomere support. They won't lengthen telomeres (any telomeres)... but will certainly help reduce attrition rates according to studies. Also take up moderate to high activity lifestyle. A sedentry lifestyle (for women) has been correlated with shorter telomeres.

Always ask for a COA if you are buying a product that is "New" and has a lot of marketing spin, to make sure it has what they say it has. This thread had marketing about a Canada product, where they simply stated they had something that they didn't. I would avoid these kinds of products with inaccuracies in their marketing, or marketing which relies on someone's word.

If this is your first time looking at telomerase (or any new material) products, then great! Remember to ask for some sort of confirmation of what they say in the marketing, even if it's a COA showing that they have a certain ingredient that was shown to do something in a university study of some sort. Something like a COA, is better than taking people's word for it, specially if they don't have numerous studies like the TA-65 product has.

Cheers
A

[Nick Ryan]

... are there better ones?

Well... here goes:

• If you want, hands down the one product with more lab studies behind it, then choose TA-65 ...
• If you have some cash, try many of the 20% to 98% cyloastragenol or A4 products on the market while they are available ... If Geron flexes it's legal arm, these may vanish at the drop of a hat.
• If you have no cash to spare, but want something that may work, buy Astragalus Extract at a 50:1 or 20:1, and take 10 grams or more a day.
• Or...Buy our product code named "Iceberg" when it comes out. :D
• If you simply can't buy anything on your budget... then Telomerase healthy activators may not be available for you. ...

Always ask for a COA ...

Thank you so much for the complete guide!

But I thought TA-65 was based on Astragalus extract, not cyloastragenol? Would picking just one of these types of products be better, or maybe one that has both?

Also... Iceberg. I know you can't say much, but would it be coming out soon? As in worth waiting for?

Thanks again,

N

Edited by Michael, 25 May 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[stephen_b]

Also... Iceberg. I know you can't say much, but would it be coming out soon? As in worth waiting for?

Are you as young as you look in your picture? If so, I'd wait.

[AdamI]

Also... Iceberg. I know you can't say much, but would it be coming out soon? As in worth waiting for?





I'm also interested in hearing thee time table for such a thing? Doesn't such thing takes ages, you want to get a patent and a producer ofr it and maybe some OK signal from FDA.
Unless it's just some herb, then one can't patent it and there is already some producers.

[zorba990]

Also... Iceberg. I know you can't say much, but would it be coming out soon? As in worth waiting for?





I'm also interested in hearing thee time table for such a thing? Doesn't such thing takes ages, you want to get a patent and a producer ofr it and maybe some OK signal from FDA.
Unless it's just some herb, then one can't patent it and there is already some producers.

Someone could probably purify epithalamin from pineal extracts and market it as a concentrated pineal extract (since companies already market 'glandular' products that way).

[GreenPower]

Anthony, do you still take cycloastragenol/ TA-65 yourself? I notice you stopped posting your telomere length changes, like you used to at the beginning of this thread, along with Greenpower. Is this because you are not taking cycloastragenol or you felt the results were not significant?

I couldn't help by notice you using a green road sign with the text "Faith". Faith is good, but needs to be backed up with hard numbers. Even if Anthony or other people in the thread made their results public and they showed increased telomere lengths for all cell types, I would still recommend you to take your own tests. Including basic health checks.

This is because:
1. How would you know if a regimen have had any effects if you did not measure where you started from (base line check) and the difference after you took it? It would be pure speculation as to whether the regimen had the effects you wanted or not.
2. People in this thread seem to use all kind of variations on different regimens and change them from time to time. Even minor differences in the compositions of a regimen might show a great difference in the results - and your personal results might therefore not be the same.
3. Two persons may not react in the same way to the same regimen. It might give postitive results and be healthy for one person, but give negative results or serious side effects for another person.
4. If you take your own tests you don't need to rely on other persons. You would be the owner of first hand information which has not been filtered, withhold or tweaked.

[Nick Ryan]

Also... Iceberg. I know you can't say much, but would it be coming out soon? As in worth waiting for?

Are you as young as you look in your picture? If so, I'd wait.

I am indeed how young I look. However, I suffered from telomere shortening due to taking Accutane, so now I'm looking for ways to lengthen them in a healthy fashion before my short telomeres become too short.