2189 replies to this topic

[marcobjj]

Shinobi yes, on their website the full dose is 4 capsules, each capsule containing 5mg of cycloastragenol. (http://www.tascience...sing-guideline/)


Also from the sciences website:

"After more than three years of research and development, T.A. Sciences in conjunction with experts in Canada, Hong Kong, and the U.S. has perfected an exclusive method for extracting the naturally-occurring TA-65 molecule from the Astragalus root. We are the first company to isolate TA-65 from the plant. The result of this exclusive, proprietary extraction process is a powder that is over 90% pure TA-65: the potent, Telomerase-Activating molecule*."

http://www.tascience...lity-standards/

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

yes, and here comes only marketing.. I think you right, they just called TA65 (marketing name as many others companies do) for cyclo.. Do you know when was made the C of A of Anthony ? I mean if it was made before or after the new formula ?

I will come up with a C of A of exactly the composition that was seen before on anthony's C of A. You will say what do you think

EDIT: thanks a lot for your help marcobjj

Edited by Shinobi, 24 April 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[marcobjj]

Shinobi - new formula?

The COA was done in 2010:

"In October of 2010. TA-65^®is tested by Intertek/AAC Labs an ISO 17025 recognized lab. Although Cycloastragenol is found to be a main component, recent data suggests that this material has been further processed and micronized in TA-65, which increases it's effectiveness over all other products in this class. " (http://www.cycloastragenol.com/)

[AdamI]

thanks Adaml.

What do you exactly mean by " And test show it's particle very similiar as Cyclo but something is changed" ?

Your link also reveals that: "It is interesting that when it was originally marketed the daily dosage of TA-65 was 5 mg and the daily dosage has been increased now to 100mg, by a factor of 20". Do someone have more info on this ? The C of A of Anthony is before or after this change ?

I read it somewhere on Longecity when someone talked about(if I remeber correct), one had used some atomic measuring the particles weight, I beleave. And it was slightly off from Cyclo. But if one would look at the molecule it looked just the same. Soo maybe it got some smaller molecule attached to it.
Regardless Revgenetics found the Telomerase Activation was soo much stronger than cyclo that they stopped selling cyclo. I think that is proof enough it just doesn't work as well as TA-65. Soo you won't earn money by taking cyclo instead of TA-65...
terraternal still sells both cyclo and TA-65, but I guess they make no test of what works or not. And sell what ever it's demand for instead of what is best.

I have read this whoel thread, at least 2 times before someone brings the same subject up is cyclo the same at TA-65... always same conclusion, it might be the same but still cyclo is far less potent as TA-65

[AdamI]

another somewhat maybe off topic, but anyone here that is expert on Epigenetics?
I read about metyl groups and acetyl groups on genes. And it states that if a gen has a metyl group attached to it the gen is "locked" for enzymes to reach it. It is instead has a Acetyl group attached to it, it opens up the gene for enzymes to produce proteins.
Soo my question is, is that why Telomeras activation isn't possible in regular cells just stem cells? Because regular cells have a metyl group or missing a acetyl group on it's telomerase gen?
Sounds logical that would be the difference anyway... appearantly there is some medicine in US that have FDA approval that is used in treating some cancer(particularly leukemi) that adds acetyl groups or as explained increases the acetylering process of genes and therefore activates some cancer suppresser genes we all got... soo how about activating the telomerase gen by increasing acetylering?

[marcobjj]

I read it somewhere on Longecity when someone talked about(if I remeber correct), one had used some atomic measuring the particles weight, I beleave. And it was slightly off from Cyclo. But if one would look at the molecule it looked just the same. Soo maybe it got some smaller molecule attached to it.
Regardless Revgenetics found the Telomerase Activation was soo much stronger than cyclo that they stopped selling cyclo. I think that is proof enough it just doesn't work as well as TA-65. Soo you won't earn money by taking cyclo instead of TA-65...

Revegenetics never sold Cycloastragenol but rather a prodcut called "Astral Fruit" which was made of Astragaloside IV, a different molecule.

http://www.revgeneti.../c-6-ta-65.aspx



and yes, you can definitely make money selling cycloastragenol. The domain cycloastragenol.com sold for over $20k in 2011 .Guess who bought it? Revgenetics. They use it to sell TA65.

http://www.webmaster...sell-for-20100/

Edited by marcobjj, 25 April 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[AdamI]

"Lab Test Shows Leading Telomerase Product Contains Cycloastragenol In October of 2010. TA-65^® is tested by Intertek/AAC Labs an ISO 17025 recognized lab. Although Cycloastragenol is found to be a main component, recent data suggests that this material has been further processed and micronized in TA-65, which increases it's effectiveness over all other products in this class. TA-65 is the standard by which all other products are measured against. " READ THE WHOLE THING HERE: http://www.cycloastragenol.com/

in 2011 Revgenetics sold Astral fruit that contained cyclo indeed. But as they wrote they stopped selling cyclo/astral fruit when they discovered TA-65 beats it With ease

Edited by AdamI, 25 April 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[marcobjj]

Adaml, that is incorrect.

Below the posts by Anthony Loerea (aka Revgenetics) where he shows the results of his telomere test after 6 months of taking Astral Fruit containing 33mg of Astragaloside IV and no Cycloastragenol at all. Both posts quoted are on page 9 of this very thread.

Hi Tianzi,

Here is an update:

I spoke to the folks a repeat diagnostics about my new results. They new tests show a shortening of about 0.5kb for lymphocytes and granulocytes. Puzzled, I called Repeat Diagnostics in Canada to talk about this, as it has only been 6 months and did not expect this. I have found out that they have an error range at about 0.5kb between blood tests. Needless to say, it falls within the new test range, and it doesn't appear to be significant either way, although B-cells, T-cells and NK cells were not measured for the last two tests, so we can't be sure about these as they may have benefited. Folks apparently are feeling good when taking Astral Fruit, some say they are receiving benefits that otherwise may not have without it, so I can't rule out any benefits at this time. Specially because I represent only one data point...

I have been taking 2-3 capsules a day with some chitosan, and apparently this may be a low dose for my weight, or the large amount of resveratrol I take daily is inhibiting telomerase and in the end, affecting the results.

As a next step, I really want to make sure the next set of tests show a change of greater than 0.5kb and I will be doubling my dose for may next 6 months starting in April. I will also be checking Telomere length measured for total lymphocyte and granulocyte populations (as I have done previously) as well as the addition of B-cells, T-cells and NK cells that I have not had measured in the past.

Because my large resveratrol intake may also have contributed significantly, I will need to cycle these two (Astral Fruit and Resveratrol) on a weekly basis, for my next 6 months. At this point the results appear to be a wash, as the measurement apparently is within the error range between blood tests.

Personally, I think I miscalculated the amount I needed, and underestimated the effect of resveratrol at inhibiting telomerase, when taking the larger resveratrol doses I am used to. So I will do an initial test again this week, that includes B-cells, T-cells and NK cells, Cycle through Astral Fruit and Resveratrol weekly, then come back with the new results in August/September. I weigh about 175, and will be taking close to 1mg of Astral Fruit (Astragaloside IV) for every pound for the next 6 months. If Cycloastragenol is available within the 6 months, I will calculate the amount of cycloastregenol intake to be 5mg for every 40mg of Astragaloside IV and maybe switch over, I suppose I will determine that if and when Cycloastregenol becomes available.

Cheers
A

I started with 33mg a day, then later added chitosan.

About 3 months ago, I continued taking Astral Fruit at 2-3 capsules daily (each having 33mg Astragaloside IV).

Cheers
A

Edited by marcobjj, 25 April 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[AdamI]

But that is from 2009!! Soo ur incorrect. in what ever u try to point out. I'm in the present, not the past. I know they changed the formula several times. ask if they had cyclo in astral fruit in 2011. That text only proofs it didn't have cyclo in 2009. soo proofs nothing

Edited by AdamI, 25 April 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[marcobjj]

it's all documented in this thread Adam, go back and find the post where Anthony tested his telomeres using Cycloastragenol if you are able to.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

marcobjj,

by new formula, I mean this: ''It is interesting that when it was originally marketed the daily dosage of TA-65 was 5 mg and the daily dosage has been increased now to 100mg, by a factor of 20''

my question is : would we prefer to get 5mg of cyclo from 100mg of astragalus extract or would we prefer to get 5mg of cyclo from 5.10mg extract (98% pure cyclo) ?

About all the speculation, micronized to around 1micron is possible, but explain why TA65 is so expensive.

[marcobjj]

Shinobi, to be honest I think that 100mg thing is just a typo. I don't know of any product that contains even close to 100mg of cyclo per pill anyone that takes that much daily, 25mg is the most I've ever heard. Also that amount would be prohibitively expensive even if bought straight out of China.

So between 5mg to 25mg per pill is the range you should aim for, in my opinion.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Yes but it could be :

1/ before = 5mg of 98% pure cyclo
2/ after= 5mg from a 5% extract of astragalus

That's all. each contains same amount of cyclo. What do you think about it ?

Yes I'm ok, that pills should contains 5mg of cyclo plus trace of astra IV

[marcobjj]

hmm. all I know is what is on TAsciences.com that I posted earlier

"
We are the first company to isolate TA-65 from the plant. The result of this exclusive, proprietary extraction process is a powder that is over 90% pure TA-65: the potent, Telomerase-Activating molecule*."

http://www.tascience...lity-standards/ "

I guess that would be 5mg Cyclo of a 5.5mg extract?

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Yes, that could be. But so, what is the 8mg you spoke me about ?

but as far as I know, they dont have any patent on an extraction process

If I could have enough time, I would like to work myself on a specific extraction process that respect the full spectrum of the herb, and just get a good % of these saponins.

Edited by Shinobi, 25 April 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[marcobjj]

that's what the package says:





-so according to the package, 8mg of Astragalus Extract.
-according to TASciences website, 90% purity
-according to lab tests, 5mg of Cycloastragenol



doesn't add up.

Edited by marcobjj, 25 April 2013 - 10:53 PM.

[niner]

Ok, this "TA-65MD" is something new. I've never heard the "MD" name before, and this is the first time I've seen any mention of hydroxypropyl methylcellulose. HPMC is an agent that is sometimes added to improve bioavailability. The notation "1 mg TA-65MD is 31 units" makes me think that a "unit" is based on a pharmacokinetic measurement or some measure of effectiveness, either in vivo or in some sort of model system. Maybe, in the face of competition from lower-cost producers, the TA-65 people are attempting to distinguish their product by improved bioavailability. I don't know why this stuff is so expensive. There are 31 suppliers in China, and one each in the US and UK, according to alibaba.com. Some of the products they offer are pretty reasonable, like a dollar or two a gram (claimed for 98%!). Astragalus extract is cheap, and cycloastragenol is just an enzymatic cleavage away from a major component of the extract. Once the price of a good formulation of cycloastragenol dips into the non-ripoff zone, I'll probably take it myself.

[marcobjj]

are you sure about MD being a new thing? if you run an image search for TA65, the logo on every package incluedes the "MD", I think it's always been there.

problem with Chinese stuff is that a dollar or two a gram sounds very suspect IMO.

[marcobjj]

also Cycloastragenol is already well absorbed by the gut, the problem with it is the first pass effect in the liver,so I wonder how could anyone increase bioavailability since it's orally administered.I don't think micronizing the extract would help much.

[niner]

are you sure about MD being a new thing? if you run an image search for TA65, the logo on every package incluedes the "MD", I think it's always been there.

problem with Chinese stuff is that a dollar or two a gram sounds very suspect IMO.

You might be right, but that's the first time I've seen it. I don't remember any mention of it in the past.

On the issue of price, TA-65 at revgenetics is $219 for 30 caps. That makes cycloastragenol approximately the same price as gold. Is this reasonable for a modified plant extract? I don't think so. I think there is a hell of a lot of profit here. I'm not anti-profit, but I am definitely pro-competition.

also Cycloastragenol is already well absorbed by the gut, the problem with it is the first pass effect in the liver,so I wonder how could anyone increase bioavailability since it's orally administered.I don't think micronizing the extract would help much.

If that's the case, then it's the same as resveratrol. Micronizing helps resveratrol bioavailability quite a lot, as measured by Cmax. (max concentration in blood) It might be related to overwhelming the liver's conjugative enzymes with a large burst of the compound.

[marcobjj]

the issue with price imo is that no one knows yet to what extent TA65 can benefit health. If it was proven to extend health and/or lifespan by 20+ years than it would be worth it and TAsciences deserves every profit they make. But to drop 3k/8k a year on an unproven supplement is irresponsible.

If that's the case, then it's the same as resveratrol. Micronizing helps resveratrol bioavailability quite a lot, as measured by Cmax. (max concentration in blood) It might be related to overwhelming the liver's conjugative enzymes with a large burst of the compound.

yup that seems to be the case:

"CAG underwent extensive metabolism in rat and human liver microsomes with only 17.4% and 8.2%, respectively, of the starting amount of CAG remaining after 30 min of incubation. Monohydroxylation of the parent and oxidization of the hydroxylated CAG were found in the liver samples. The present study indicates that CAG is efficiently absorbed through intestinal epithelium. However, extensive first-pass hepatic metabolism would limit the oral bioavailability of this compound."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20877137

Edited by marcobjj, 26 April 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Ok, this "TA-65MD" is something new. I've never heard the "MD" name before, and this is the first time I've seen any mention of hydroxypropyl methylcellulose. HPMC is an agent that is sometimes added to improve bioavailability. The notation "1 mg TA-65MD is 31 units" makes me think that a "unit" is based on a pharmacokinetic measurement or some measure of effectiveness, either in vivo or in some sort of model system. Maybe, in the face of competition from lower-cost producers, the TA-65 people are attempting to distinguish their product by improved bioavailability. I don't know why this stuff is so expensive. There are 31 suppliers in China, and one each in the US and UK, according to alibaba.com. Some of the products they offer are pretty reasonable, like a dollar or two a gram (claimed for 98%!). Astragalus extract is cheap, and cycloastragenol is just an enzymatic cleavage away from a major component of the extract. Once the price of a good formulation of cycloastragenol dips into the non-ripoff zone, I'll probably take it myself.

HMPC is only the capsule, not to improve the bioavailability. It's just the normal way to get a vegan capsule. No less, no more.

I totally agree with you about the price and competitivity. I want to be sure to sell the exact same extract and have the exact same effectivness before selling it to 1/4 price of TA65.

Do you know what is the exact test that Anthony did to say TA65 is effectivness in human tissue ? What would be the test If I want to compare each one ?

[niner]

HMPC is only the capsule, not to improve the bioavailability. It's just the normal way to get a vegan capsule. No less, no more.

Do you know what is the exact test that Anthony did to say TA65 is effectivness in human tissue ? What would be the test If I want to compare each one ?

Oh, maybe the HPMC is just the capsule in this case; I hadn't considered that, but HPMC certainly has also been used as a formulating agent. We used to talk about it a lot, back in the resveratrol days.

I don't know the exact test, but if you go to the RevGenetics website, there's a link to Hector Valenzuela's paper. It should be mentioned there. It's just an in vitro test, so it really isn't saying much about how it would work in a human, however, if a compound doesn't work in the in vitro test, the odds of it working in a human are pretty slim.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

thanks niner,

I really need first to understand what marcobjj wrote:

so according to the package, 8mg of Astragalus Extract.
-according to TASciences website, 90% purity
-according to lab tests, 5mg of Cycloastragenol

because it's not logical:

we have : astragaloside IV: 0.27mg (4.72%) ; astragenol: 0.01mg (0.17%) and cyclo: 5.44mg (95.10%). Total: 5.77mg (100%)

if cyclo is really 90% and astragalus is 8Mg, that's mean 8mg is 100%, so we should have 7.2mg of cyclo in the extract...

Edited by Shinobi, 26 April 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[marcobjj]

from http://www.tasciences.com/ta-65/

"Our proprietary production process starts with three tons of plant material and ends up with capsules that we guarantee contain 5mg of TA-65."


so the conflicting info we have so far:

tasciences.com -

5mg of TA-65 per capsule
90% purity
==================

TA65 package -

8mg of TA-65MD per capsule
==================


Lab Tests -

5.44mg of cyclo per capsule

Edited by marcobjj, 26 April 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Yes, so I will have to buy one bottle and test it myself..

Also, we dont have any studies on animals showing it actually increase lifespan as resveratrol does.

[marcobjj]

TA65 was tested in mice. They observed an improvement in healthspan but no mention of increased lifespan.

TA-65 dietary supplementation in female mice leads to an improvement of certain health-span indicators including glucose tolerance, osteoporosis and skin fitness, without significantly increasing global cancer incidence.

http://www.prnewswir...-119696714.html


http://onlinelibrary...0700.x/abstract

Edited by marcobjj, 26 April 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

Yes marcobjj... and here we go.. No evidence at all that TA 5 can increase lifespan, only speculation and a lot of marketing.

Maybe it is the same thing with homocysteine, high level is an important cardiovascular risk factor, but reduce it does not improve mortality at all.. biology is never simple

[marcobjj]

yes, TA65 seems to be more of a rejuvenating molecule than a longevity one.

When they activated telomerase in mice it did make them "younger", as in increased fertility, reversed balding and grey hair and their brains even got larger, but somehow the mice didn't live longer appearantly even though they looked younger and got healtheir. I wonder how those rats died exactly.

Edited by marcobjj, 27 April 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

or maybe if we complete the action we can: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19013273 so enhanced the p53, p16, and p19ARF. Don't know exactly, as you said, we have no details as how they died, because normally TA65 does not make cancer in cells.. conflicting information ?

Anyway, do someone have the exact percentage of important component as cyclo, astragenol, astragaloside IV in astragal ? I mean the normal range the herb have ?