2189 replies to this topic

[free10]

Today I ended my last test period and went through my ordinary medical tests. This mean I will start a new "half year test run" in a week or so. I've still not decided which of these regimens I will try.
a) 2 x AT-90 + Training + Meditation + LCHF,
b) 2 x Standardized Astragalus (Solgar) + 2 x AT-90 + Training + Meditation + LCHF,
c) 4 x Standardized Astragalus (Solgar) + Training + Meditation + LCHF (similar to now, but excluding Gingko Biloba and doubling the dose of Astragalus), or
d) using up my old/expired Cycloastragenol/Chitosan with a dose like 2 x 10mg Cyclo + Training + Meditation + LCHF. Or perhaps 2 x 15 mg or 2 x 20 mg (expired) Cyclo if I can manage the dose. The Cyclo expired like a year ago, but when asking the support at Revgenetics I understood it should be possible to compensate for this by increasing the dosage.

I plan to take Resveratrol whenever I train and then skip the other stuff during half a day. I'll probably have a resting phase during some weeks in the middle of the test run. For this test run I've removed all stressful environmental factors which might (or might not) have had a negative impact on earlier test runs.

Do you have suggestions and arguments on which of the regimens should be the most interesting to test?

I would suggest straight Cycloastragenol plus C60oo, and the Cycloastragenol on an empty stomach before bed time or Cycloastragenol soaked in some olive oil for a few minutes before ingesting and make that 20mg a day, or every other day. You could try other sources for the Cycloastragenol as well. The one giving the wildest dreams from the differing sources, and in olive oil or not would be the best activator I would guess and the one, or ones to continue taking.

My guess or view is the C60oo would be protecting the telomeres from damage, while the Cycloastragenol will do its thing and encourage the repair of shorten telomeres either on normal short cells or stem cells. It should also possibly kill off the short telomered cells, which would include cancer and senescent cells as the immune system is strengthened. Increased activity/exercise should result naturally with younger healthier cells and less also of the oldest trouble making cells.

The C60oo I see as vital in the scheme of things, to keep our cells from being damaged by ROS from so many sources. Any time mice can be given deadly amounts of radiation after a dose of C60 in water and most of them can walk away from it and not even suffer weight loss from it, or the can be given lethal amounts of poison and shake it off rather easily and show little internal damage from them, then it is way more powerful than most things at protecting the cells.

Cycloastragenol is very powerful too and 10s of thousands have taken it imho. The combo with C60oo should be explosive towards a positive result.

[marcobjj]

Neither the Times article, the study its about, or the other article say or cite any study saying senescent cells become inactive.

retirement = "1) they arrest growth and cannot be stimulated to reenter the cell cycle by physiological mitogens"

[marcobjj]

The 2nd part about inflammatory cytokines and proteases sounds more definite until you look at the cites which all have to do with either cancer or tumor cells or cells subjected to DNA damage, usually with sub-lethal radiation exposure, to induce either senescence or cancer.

no, not all of them. Below is what cite 33 says. As you can see the DNA damage mentioned is simply telomere shortening caused by replicative senescence.



Abstract


Cellular senescence suppresses cancer by stably arresting the proliferation of damaged cells (1).
Paradoxically, senescent cells also secrete factors that alter tissue microenvironments.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2743561/



(1)

Abstract


Telomere erosion and subsequent dysfunction limits the proliferation of normal human cells by a process termed replicative senescence. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC175806/

Edited by marcobjj, 20 August 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[GreenPower]

Thanks hav and free10 for interesting suggestions about C60oo. I guess it works by removing free radicals. It still seem a bit untested for me so I think I'll skip it for now and continue to use LCHF as a substitute. The theory being that ketones works "as 'magic' in their ability to increase metabolic efficiency, while decreasing production of free radicals, the damaging byproducts of normal metabolism because the heart and brain operate 25% more efficiently using ketones as a source of energy". Maybe not as effective as C60oo, but should at least have a similar positive effect.

Regarding AT-90. There seem to be only one real product claim: "Activates DNA Damage Repair Through A Specific Mitogen-activated protein kinases Pathway". And then there are the three "maybes".
• May Rejuvenate Aging Immune Systems
• May Increase Bone Density
• May Improve Biomarkers that Decline with Age
...which really don't mean anything. AT-90 isn't claiming it will extend telomeres, only repair DNA. I still want to add something which I believe might have an effect on telomere length.

Because Anthony opted for including Chitosan with the Cycloastragenol in the same pill (Astragalus Fruit-C) it might prove a problem to separate them. I agree it kind of runs against logic to eat something which might limit fat absorption when eating HF. To simplify things it would have been much better if he had opted for not adding the Chitosan, but I'm hopeful it will not limit fat absorption. I will use Ketostix in order to verify I'm actually in Ketosis.

I'm not sure that Cycloastragenol in itself will have an effect taken orally in vivo. At least not taken alone without other compounds in Astragalus. I therefore consider a new alternative E.

e) 2 x Standardized Astragalus (Solgar) + using up my old/expired Cycloastragenol/Chitosan with a dose like 2 x 10mg Cyclo + Training + Meditation + LCHF. Or perhaps 2 x 15 mg or 2 x 20 mg (expired) Cyclo if I can manage the dose. The Cyclo expired like a year ago, but when asking the support at Revgenetics I understood it should be possible to compensate for this by increasing the dosage. Resveratrol will only be taken before/after a training session.

This would also have a positive effect on my wallet, because I already have everything for a six month regimen :-)

Why would I like to separate the HF ingestion from the Astragalus?

[blood]

Even Swansons is launching a telomere maintenance product... they're calling it the Swanson Ultra Telomere Advantage Cellular Longevity Formula...



It has a bit of astragalus, and some other stuff (glutathione, carnosine, Vit D, folic acid, B6, B12):

http://www.swansonvi...age-60-veg-caps
http://www.swansonvi...y-to-aging.html

[marcobjj]

Astragalus extract won't do anything in terms of telomerase activation but it will do things for you're health that Cycloastragenol cannot. I take 15g every day as a body tonic.

[cuprous]

Astragalus extract won't do anything in terms of telomerase activation but it will do things for you're health that Cycloastragenol cannot. I take 15g every day as a body tonic.

That is an awful lot of product. How do you take it? 30 pills?

[marcobjj]

I buy the raw powder at ebay or starwest botanicals, totals $12-15 a month. 15 grams is too much to take it in pill form.

Edited by marcobjj, 20 August 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[Hebbeh]

Aren't you worried of iron overload?

[marcobjj]

nah 15mg-24mg of iron a day (at the very worst) is just slightly above RDA

[Hebbeh]

The RDA of iron for adult males is 8mg and you're already 4x that amount just with the astragalus not including the rest of your diet or other herbals. You could easily be more than 6x the RDA each and every day.....not something I would want as an adult male. That is a heavy oxidative load. I make a point of donating blood and taking IP6 to lower my iron load as most males have too much iron to begin with. It's been posited that females live longer due to menstruation and shedding of iron.

[marcobjj]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

[Hebbeh]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

Um no. 100g of dry oatmeal (which is considered 2.5 servings) is 4mg iron. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Rolled_oats It would take 15 servings of oatmeal to equal the equivalent iron from 15g astragalus. And we weren't talking about acute iron poisoning (in a single dose) but chronic iron overload which is a known health hazard.

[hav]

Neither the Times article, the study its about, or the other article say or cite any study saying senescent cells become inactive.

retirement = "1) they arrest growth and cannot be stimulated to reenter the cell cycle by physiological mitogens"

Bad analogy. I'm retired and I don't seem to be secreting anything or becoming inactive. ... I think the arrest of growth characterization of senescence on a cellular level would only be correct in the sense that by definition, cell division ceases. Maybe I am senescent too in a way because I'm not reproducing either. But then again, I must have always been because I never have.

Howard

Edited by hav, 21 August 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[hav]

Because Anthony opted for including Chitosan with the Cycloastragenol in the same pill (Astragalus Fruit-C) it might prove a problem to separate them. I agree it kind of runs against logic to eat something which might limit fat absorption when eating HF. To simplify things it would have been much better if he had opted for not adding the Chitosan, but I'm hopeful it will not limit fat absorption. I will use Ketostix in order to verify I'm actually in Ketosis.

I think it's only a possible issue if you ingest the fats, chitosan, and water soluble astragalus extract at the same time. I try to separate my fat intake from them by 2 to 4 hours.

The interesting thing about c60/oo is that it seems to have protected the Baati rats against cancer... and I haven't seen anyone report that c60 might lengthen telomeres at all. The impression I got is that those rats eventually died when an excessive amount of the cells in their body went into apoptosis. Makes me wonder how long they might have lived if they also had their telomeres lengthened.

Howard

[GreenPower]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

According to Wikipedia 15mg is the "tolerable upper intake level" for an average healthy 25-year old male. Because not everyone are "average" it might be wise to have some margin on that. And do regular blood tests which measures the level of iron.

[marcobjj]

Bad analogy. I'm retired and I don't seem to be secreting anything or becoming inactive. ... I think the arrest of growth characterization of senescence on a cellular level would only be correct in the sense that by definition, cell division ceases. Maybe I am senescent too in a way because I'm not reproducing either. But then again, I must have always been because I never have.

you're simply arguing semantics at this point, any analogy can be picked apart like that.

[marcobjj]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

Um no. 100g of dry oatmeal (which is considered 2.5 servings) is 4mg iron. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Rolled_oats It would take 15 servings of oatmeal to equal the equivalent iron from 15g astragalus. And we weren't talking about acute iron poisoning (in a single dose) but chronic iron overload which is a known health hazard.

it's less iron than a cup of beans alright? 17mg.

http://nutritiondata...products/4299/2


you're not gonna get sick or die for eating beans. do as you want but I'm not buying into the paranoia. It's been recommended in Chinese Pharmacopeia for 2000 years at starting dose of 15g day, no iron poisoning case ever documented.

Edited by marcobjj, 21 August 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[hav]

Bad analogy. I'm retired and I don't seem to be secreting anything or becoming inactive. ... I think the arrest of growth characterization of senescence on a cellular level would only be correct in the sense that by definition, cell division ceases. Maybe I am senescent too in a way because I'm not reproducing either. But then again, I must have always been because I never have.

you're simply arguing semantics at this point, any analogy can be picked apart like that.

I guess I should drop it even if it is offensive and almost every justifying point is flawed. After all, the bottom line seems reasonable: that increasing the measured length of telomeres is healthy and that moderately reducing the relative number of cells going into senescence and/or apoptosis is also apparently a good thing.

I think the basic problem is relying on cancer research and papers that are all over the map logically. And maybe they're still getting used to people outside their specialty reading their papers. It was just a short while ago when they speculated telomerase might cause cancer. And the same for an insufficient level of apoptosis. I guess the fact that they've moved on to blaming inflammation and senescence is an improvement. While paradoxically still conceding that inflammation is natures way of healing and replicative senescence is natures way of preventing cancer. Perhaps the reconciling logic is that you can't have too much of any good thing.

Howard

[smithx]

A good way for men to get rid of excess iron is to donate blood.

[hav]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

Um no. 100g of dry oatmeal (which is considered 2.5 servings) is 4mg iron. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Rolled_oats It would take 15 servings of oatmeal to equal the equivalent iron from 15g astragalus. And we weren't talking about acute iron poisoning (in a single dose) but chronic iron overload which is a known health hazard.

it's less iron than a cup of beans alright? 17mg.

http://nutritiondata...products/4299/2

you're not gonna get sick or die for eating beans. do as you want but I'm not buying into the paranoia. It's been recommended in Chinese Pharmacopeia for 2000 years at starting dose of 15g day, no iron poisoning case ever documented.

Sub-toxic iron and related hepcidin levels may be an issue associated with bone health... although I don't have the full-text so I'm not sure of the exact levels they're talking about:

Iron homeostasis in osteoporosis and its clinical implications.

The recent identification of hepcidin sheds new light into the crucial role of iron homeostasis in bone metabolism. Decreasing iron overload in cell studies as well as in animal experiments has been shown to improve bone cell metabolism and growth in vitro and in vivo. In view of the significant iron overload found in the aging population, especially in females, the therapeutic potential of lowering iron overload for the treatment of osteoporosis is suggested.

Howard

[marcobjj]

^cool abstract. If one day I become a post-menopausal woman, a rat or a cell culture I'll be quaking in my boots.

Edited by marcobjj, 21 August 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[DorianGrey]

Lately I read through one of these anti-aging books and it actually had M.D.s look at the different angles of aging, starting with fitness and nutrition, a bit on vitamins and other supplements and the first time I read more on skin health, they also touched a bit the available cosmetic procedures. The book wasn't that great but caught my interest on the skin health part.
The dermatologist was into exfoliating, cleansing and then applying an anti-oxidative cream with Hyaluronic Acid and also Tetra- or Pentapeptides, which I haven't seen as an ingredient before. I am not sure if daily exfoliating is a good idea or more growing his customer base, but it help with the absorption of actives (thinking of the 500Dalton dermal barrier).
I've seen that SkinActives.com, where I had ordered an ingredient previously, also sells AS IV for use in their DIY creams. It's a 4g extract of 10% AS IV for 12.50$, the creams come as 120ml at 13$. Has anyone tried AS IV on the skin (face, hands)? It's only 25$ so I am a bit tempted, maybe mixing it with some other goodies (Mg Ascorbylphosphate, Carnosine etc.) in the same cream.

It's not that I would have any skin issues, but a rejuvenating cream won't hurt.

What's your opinion? Any experience with topical AS IV? I think the low bioavailability is less of an issue when applied topically, and I would also be interested in any effect on hair follicles.

Edited by DorianGrey, 22 August 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[DorianGrey]

iron poisoning begins at 15-30mg per Kg of weight, that'd be 1g /2g a day for most people. You're not gonna hurt yourself taking 15g of astragalus, believe me. It's the same amount of iron that you get on 100g of oatmeal.

Um no. 100g of dry oatmeal (which is considered 2.5 servings) is 4mg iron. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Rolled_oats It would take 15 servings of oatmeal to equal the equivalent iron from 15g astragalus. And we weren't talking about acute iron poisoning (in a single dose) but chronic iron overload which is a known health hazard.

it's less iron than a cup of beans alright? 17mg.

http://nutritiondata...products/4299/2

you're not gonna get sick or die for eating beans. do as you want but I'm not buying into the paranoia. It's been recommended in Chinese Pharmacopeia for 2000 years at starting dose of 15g day, no iron poisoning case ever documented.

Sub-toxic iron and related hepcidin levels may be an issue associated with bone health... although I don't have the full-text so I'm not sure of the exact levels they're talking about:

Iron homeostasis in osteoporosis and its clinical implications.

The recent identification of hepcidin sheds new light into the crucial role of iron homeostasis in bone metabolism. Decreasing iron overload in cell studies as well as in animal experiments has been shown to improve bone cell metabolism and growth in vitro and in vivo. In view of the significant iron overload found in the aging population, especially in females, the therapeutic potential of lowering iron overload for the treatment of osteoporosis is suggested.

Howard

I recently read a book that was heavy on supplements and strictly advised against multivits for men that contain any iron. I would try to avoid dietary sources high in "heme" iron, i.e. eat less meat and also don't do the fortified cereals.

http://www.eatingwel...nt_library/iron

Edited by DorianGrey, 22 August 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[GreenPower]

What's your opinion? Any experience with topical AS IV? I think the low bioavailability is less of an issue when applied topically, and I would also be interested in any effect on hair follicles.

Once upon a time (2009) I bought some "Astragaloside IV Cream". I don't think it did very much and I see the company making it has now switched it for something with Resveratrol/ L-Carnosine/CoEnzymeQ10.

[hav]

What's your opinion? Any experience with topical AS IV? I think the low bioavailability is less of an issue when applied topically, and I would also be interested in any effect on hair follicles.

Once upon a time (2009) I bought some "Astragaloside IV Cream". I don't think it did very much and I see the company making it has now switched it for something with Resveratrol/ L-Carnosine/CoEnzymeQ10.

One of the Andrews presentations mentioned something about that which made allot of sense. He indicated that faster rates of cell division lead to shorter telomeres in those cells and that skin cells have one of the highest rates, especially if you burn and peel regularly. I imagine abrasive or chemical exfoliation would have a similar result.

Howard

Edited by hav, 22 August 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[DorianGrey]

What's your opinion? Any experience with topical AS IV? I think the low bioavailability is less of an issue when applied topically, and I would also be interested in any effect on hair follicles.

Once upon a time (2009) I bought some "Astragaloside IV Cream". I don't think it did very much and I see the company making it has now switched it for something with Resveratrol/ L-Carnosine/CoEnzymeQ10.

I think L-carnosine absolutely makes sense. I don't know whether Resveratrol has any advantage over Pterostilbenes, are the any dermatologic studies? (getting off-topic here).

Back to AS IV: what was the concentration of the cream? did you exfoliate? How long did you use it?

Anyway, I don't think you would see any immediate change the way it's supposed to work. But skin should be a good target for telomerase activation due to the high replication rate.

[marcobjj]

according to both Dr David Woynarowski and Ed Park TA65 is not an effective topical treatment. Considering AIV has an even greater molecular weight I wouldn't expect it to work either.

Edited by marcobjj, 22 August 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[hav]

I just happened to be reading up on dmso and what it can transport through the skin. One source says it can't transport insulin because its too large a molecule at 5808 da. Another source says it can transport molecules smaller than 1,000 da, if they dissolve. As4 at 788 should work but cycloastragenol at 491 should be even easier. Just don't know if dmso would be the best vehicle in this case.

Howard

[smithx]

according to both Dr David Woynarowski and Ed Park TA65 is not an effective topical treatment. Considering AIV has an even greater molecular weight I wouldn't expect it to work either.

That's interesting. So what astragalus compounds do we think they they are using in this patent, assigned to Geron (which is the patent holder for TA65 as well)?

The patent includes extraction instructions (using 95% ethanol).

The present invention relates to formulations containing plant extracts, and in particular to formulations containing Astragalus extracts, and their use in skin conditioning, in protecting the skin from UV damage, and in inducing telomerase activity in cells.
http://patents.justi...ent/20070122501