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Astragalus, Astragaloside IV


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#1231 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 02:04 PM

Apparently Lifespan isn't affected, there is an article this morning here:
http://www.thedailyb...ntroversy/full/

The quote below is from the last part of the article (which I found to be the most interesting part):


FYI, according to an independent test (COA is attached)
TA-65 pure capsule was verified to be have 5mg of Cycloastragenol from Astragalus:

In her study, a group of middle-aged and old mice ate food spiked with TA-65, while another group, the controls, ate plain food. (The age of the mice was intentional: TA-65 is marketed to people in their forties and up.) After three months, the scientists took blood samples, and measured the lengths of the telomeres of both groups. And sure enough: Mice that ate the TA-65 had a lower percentage of "very short telomeres." They also displayed lower insulin levels, hair regrowth, and increased skin plumping. Blasco takes these changes as evidence that TA-65 works by "turning on" telomerase.
But the changes didn't last, and overall longevity didn't change. Nor did average telomere length of the treated mice—a measure that countless previous studies have deemed the more important measure, as it's been proven to correlate with everything from reduced disease risk to lower mortality.

This last detail concerns Carol Greider, who, along with Elizabeth Blackburn and Jack Szostak, won the Nobel for the discovery of telomerase and how telomeres protect chromosomes. "There are a number of questions about the actual claims just in terms of: Is TA-65 really doing what they think it's doing?" says Greider about the new paper. She reflects, too, on an earlier study, in the journal Rejuvenation Research, showing similar results in humans (that is, T.A. Sciences customers) taking TA-65, along with vitamin supplements: The subjects' mean telomere length did not increase, but their percentage of very short telomeres appeared to decrease. "I haven't seen yet that they actually change telomere length, which is the clear real indicator," adds Greider. When I first contacted the Nobel laureate, she sent me a paper reporting that if taken in pill form, Geron's drug-in-progress from the Chinese herb (TAT2) couldn't even get to the body's cells to make a difference. "This particular drug wouldn't be one that you would give orally," says Greider. "There would need to be some sort of chemical modification… for it to actually be useful." No one connected to TA-65 will say if the supplement and TAT2 are chemically the same—"it's a trade secret," says Patton. But he assured me that results from studies on TAT2 are "definitely applicable" to TA-65. Calvin Harley, a co-author on all three papers and chief scientific officer of Telome Health Inc., a new telomere-diagnostics company based in Northern California, acknowledges that concentrations of the active anti-aging ingredient may be low. But he says the pill can still activate telomerase in human cells in the lab—and the low potency helps to reduce safety concerns. But Greider and other scientists point out both Blasco and Harley's vested interest in the pill. Harley, 58, is a pioneer in telomere research, and a rigorous scientist. But he's also an inventor of TA-65, and an adviser to both Geron and T.A. Sciences. "I hate to say it, but I really think that money corrupts," says noted cellular aging researcher Judith Campisi, pointing to the timing of the paper's release—which happens to coincide with the launch of Blasco's new company, Life Lengths, which measures people's telomeres. Campisi, based at California's Buck Institute for Research on Aging, has another concern as well: Telomerase doesn't cause cancer, but cancer cells are telomerase-rich—it's what enables them to divide indefinitely. Blasco's new paper reports that the treated mice did show an increase of liver cancer, though those levels "did not reach statistical significance."


Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 April 2011 - 02:13 PM.


#1232 Logan

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 06:28 PM

Anthony, could you say again how you believe Astral fruit compares to TA-65? I know you've already discussed this.

Also, why do you recommend cycling Astral Fruit NF every other week, regardless of whether or not one is taking any of the telomerase inhibitors? I'm guessing this might have something to do with evidence that the effects on telomerase are lasting and it may be best or as effective to not constantly activate telomerase in such a powerful way for several reasons. Can you please get into the details as to why cycling is best? I'm sorry if I missed this in the lengthy discussion, I'm sure I did.

Edited by MorganM, 13 April 2011 - 06:43 PM.


#1233 GreenPower

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 06:56 PM

A very good and informational article written in an objective manner.

Have anyone read the complete report ( http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21426483 )? It would be very interesting to know if the quality of it is better than the last report this team put together.

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#1234 Logan

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 02:17 AM

Anthony, could you say again how you believe Astral fruit compares to TA-65? I know you've already discussed this.

Also, why do you recommend cycling Astral Fruit NF every other week, regardless of whether or not one is taking any of the telomerase inhibitors? I'm guessing this might have something to do with evidence that the effects on telomerase are lasting and it may be best or as effective to not constantly activate telomerase in such a powerful way for several reasons. Can you please get into the details as to why cycling is best? I'm sorry if I missed this in the lengthy discussion, I'm sure I did.


I guess this was not the right place to ask this question.

#1235 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:39 AM

Hi Morgan,

We simply want to make sure your body doesn't get used to or develop a tolerance for the telomerase activator. Our CSO has tried to activate a normal cells telomerase, but the cell has always found a way to stop telomerase even when a normal cell was manipulated to be permanently on.

The RGTA complex is different because it not only uses astragalus with confirmed amounts of Cycloastragenol (and a bit of astragenol, & and A4), but the formula also adds two other telomerase support ingredients that no one else has in their formula. In addition we also aim for higher absorption by adding chitosan and bioperine to remove doubts regarding it's absorption.

The fact is, that we try to develop better and better products overtime, trying to use the same product development methods that we used to make dry nano-resveratrol, and helped us make finally arrive at the 99% pure micro-resveratrol tween emulsion product, while others still use a coarse 20% to 50% polygonum resveratrol product with emodin.

So what makes us better or different?
We try to keep on making the product better, as we find new ways to improve the formulation.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 15 April 2011 - 04:42 AM.


#1236 Logan

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 05:20 AM

We simply want to make sure your body doesn't get used to or develop a tolerance for the telomerase activator. ...

The RGTA complex is different because it not only uses astragalus with confirmed amounts of Cycloastragenol (and a bit of astragenol, & and A4), but the formula also adds two other telomerase support ingredients that no one else has in their formula. In addition we also aim for higher absorption by adding chitosan and bioperine to remove doubts regarding it's absorption.


Thanks Anthony. I'm a bit concerned about using bioperine on a regular basis. It just seems like so many companies are adding bioperine for better absorption without really knowing what the short term or long term effects may be. The mere fact that bioperine appears to potentially make anything and everything more bioavailable scares me. Couldn't we be letting in a slew of other things that were meant to be kept out?

Is it that you have questions about absorption so you added bioperine, or you are pretty sure cycloastragenol is absorbed well with chitosan and you just want to comfort your customers with adding bioperine, or both?

I think you guys are doing something unique in the life extension/health extension part of the supplement industry, and I, and I'm sure many others, appreciate it. But as with all companies, even the best, we have to raise question over concerns if they are legitimate. I really just don't like the idea of taking bioperine at all(no problem with a little black pepper here and there though), so I'm a bit disappointed that it is in your new fomulation.

Morgan

Edited by Michael, 29 May 2012 - 12:14 AM.


#1237 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 02:59 PM

Thank for the feedback Morgan,

I think the big issue is what the Nobel laureate Carol Greider pointed out regarding Cycloastragenol:

<Cycloastragenol> couldn't even get to the body's cells to make a difference. "This particular drug wouldn't be one that you would give orally," says Greider. "There would need to be some sort of chemical modification… for it to actually be useful.".

Getting into the bodies cells is important, and increasing absorption is part of the key to it. So unlike others, our formulation was made to help remedy the absorption issue.

Regarding Bioperine:
If you have some tangible evidence regarding bioperine, please let me know. At this point, your post comes off a little on the 'gut feeling' side of things which, doesn't help me when we decide to improve our formulation.

For now, I am glad you are bringing things up.
It helps us understand people's opinions on the current RGTA formulation.

Cheers
A

#1238 Logan

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:38 PM

I think the big issue is what the Nobel laureate Carol Greider pointed out regarding Cycloastragenol:

<Cycloastragenol> couldn't even get to the body's cells to make a difference. "This particular drug wouldn't be one that you would give orally," says Greider. "There would need to be some sort of chemical modification… for it to actually be useful.".

Getting into the bodies cells is important, and increasing absorption is part of the key to it. So unlike others, our formulation was made to help remedy the absorption issue.


If Geron was getting results in the lab using TA-65, then it must have been getting into the cells enough to make a significant different. Or, maybe you hope is that using agents like bioperine to help deliver cycloastragenol to the cells and possibly further enhance utilization will bring effects that Geron has not been able to achieve with TA-65. I'm not talking about just better absorption, but better results as far as what cyoastragenol is actually doing to telomeres. In the article you posted, I believe I remember reading that there was no evidence of actually telomere lengthening or restoring, am I wrong? The brain is far from what it used to be, I'm working on that : )

I will have to look into the bioperine issue to see if there is any credible evidence for the concern I raised. I do know there are others here that have raised the same concern and choose not to use bioperine as a result.

Thanks for you response Anthony,

Morgan

Edited by MorganM, 15 April 2011 - 04:46 PM.


#1239 niner

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 03:43 AM

The following makes me wonder if bioperine is even helpful. It might be, since two oxidized metabolites are seen, but it's heavily glucuronidated (the resveratrol story all over again). Going by the Caco-2 in-vitro model, it appears to be absorbed well. (rsv again...) The molecule has the hallmarks of a 3A4 and Pgp substrate, though I don't have any literature in front of me to back that up. Anthony, do you know of any pharmacokinetic studies on cycloastragenol that have been done with and without bioperine?

Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 2010;25(5):477-86. Epub 2010 Sep 22.
In vitro intestinal absorption and first-pass intestinal and hepatic metabolism of cycloastragenol, a potent small molecule telomerase activator.

Zhu J, Lee S, Ho MK, Hu Y, Pang H, Ip FC, Chin AC, Harley CB, Ip NY, Wong YH.

Biotechnology Research Institute, Department of Biochemistry, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong, China.
Abstract

Cycloastragenol (CAG) is the aglycone derivative of astragaloside IV which has recently been demonstrated to activate telomerase and represents a potential drug candidate for the treatment of degenerative diseases. In the present study, intestinal absorption and metabolism of CAG were examined using the Caco-2 model and liver microsomes, respectively. The results showed that CAG rapidly passes through the Caco-2 cell monolayer by passive diffusion. Four different glucuronide conjugates and two oxidized CAG metabolites were found in the apical and basolateral sides of Caco-2 monolayer, suggesting that first-pass intestinal metabolism of CAG might occur upon passage through the intestinal epithelium. CAG underwent extensive metabolism in rat and human liver microsomes with only 17.4% and 8.2%, respectively, of the starting amount of CAG remaining after 30 min of incubation. Monohydroxylation of the parent and oxidization of the hydroxylated CAG were found in the liver samples. The present study indicates that CAG is efficiently absorbed through intestinal epithelium. However, extensive first-pass hepatic metabolism would limit the oral bioavailability of this compound.

PMID: 20877137



#1240 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 02:41 AM

Thanks niner,

sounds like cycloastragenol needs help getting into your system fast alright... I don't have Bioperine studies for cycloastragenol. The Bioprerine studies are for other supplements at this time, and as Morgan pointed out. It appears to work with a lot of different supplements.

It does sound like there is room for improvement in our formulation, so we maybe looking at a new one soon.

Thanks again niner!

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 18 April 2011 - 02:42 AM.


#1241 boylan

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:46 PM

The following makes me wonder if bioperine is even helpful. It might be, since two oxidized metabolites are seen, but it's heavily glucuronidated

Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 2010;25(5):477-86. Epub 2010 Sep 22.
In vitro intestinal absorption and first-pass intestinal and hepatic metabolism of cycloastragenol, a potent small molecule telomerase activator.
Zhu J, Lee S, Ho MK, Hu Y, Pang H, Ip FC, Chin AC, Harley CB, Ip NY, Wong YH.
PMID: 20877137

I wonder if grapefruit juice would help with the first pass?

Edited by Michael, 21 April 2011 - 05:23 PM.
trim quote


#1242 niner

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 08:02 PM

I wonder if grapefruit juice would help with the first pass?

Not a bad idea, boylan! Not technically first pass, but equally important, there are 3A4 enzymes in the gut for the express purpose of nuking xenobiotics in the diet. These (as opposed to those in the liver) are the enzymes that get inhibited by compounds in grapefruit juice, and to the extent that they are responsible for those oxidized metabolites, then yes, it could help some. (Or not; it hasn't actually been looked at, but call it an educated guess.) Still, glucuronidation appears to be a major culprit in cycloastragenol metabolism, so even if ALL 3A4 was out of the picture, it would still be metabolized at a pretty good clip.

#1243 McQueen

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:21 AM

I imagine you guys hate this but...could someone translate the last post or two for civilians like me? There is alot of vocabulary that I am (and maybe others) just not familiar with. I try and look up as much as I can but some of the references are hard to locate a definition. Just thought I might ask. Thanks

#1244 niner

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 02:34 AM

I imagine you guys hate this but...could someone translate the last post or two for civilians like me? There is alot of vocabulary that I am (and maybe others) just not familiar with. I try and look up as much as I can but some of the references are hard to locate a definition. Just thought I might ask. Thanks

No problem. The main idea is that people are looking for ways to increase the level of cycloastragenol in the bloodstream. The drug is already absorbed pretty well, so things that enhance absorption probably aren't going to be very helpful. The problem is that we have a bunch of enzymes in our gut and in our liver whose job it is to chew up drugs and cause them to be excreted. These enzymes are getting rid of the cycloastragenol too quickly, so we'd like to interfere with that process if possible. There is a particular kind of these drug-metabolizing enzymes in the gut that is inhibited by compounds in grapefruit juice. Boylan was wondering if grapefruit juice might slow the metabolism of cycloastragenol, and my conjecture, based only on my intuition about the kinds of molecules that are attacked by that enzyme, is that it might help a little. I don't think it would be a magic bullet, though, since there are other enzymes that cause cycloastragenol to be excreted by a completely different mechanism.

#1245 Logan

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:08 PM

How about swishing cyanoastagenol with alcohol in the mouth in a similar way that efforts are made to enhance resveratrol absorption? I wonder if a cyanoastragenol alcohol tincture, that we could swish around in our mouth and under our tongue, would be a superior absorbed cyanoastragenol product.

Are there any other foods/herbs that inhibit other drug-metabolizing enzymes than the one inhibited by grapefruit, that also may enhance the absorption of cyanoastragenol?

#1246 maxwatt

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:08 AM

How about swishing cyanoastagenol with alcohol in the mouth in a similar way that efforts are made to enhance resveratrol absorption? I wonder if a cyanoastragenol alcohol tincture, that we could swish around in our mouth and under our tongue, would be a superior absorbed cyanoastragenol product.

Are there any other foods/herbs that inhibit other drug-metabolizing enzymes than the one inhibited by grapefruit, that also may enhance the absorption of cyanoastragenol?


That would avoid first-pass hepatic metabolism of the probably somewhat limited amount of cyanoastragenol one could absorb by the oral mucosa. Also, it would avoid intestinal glucoronidation, but that does not seem to be a major problem; cyanoastragenol is well absorbed into the bloodstream. I'm guessing you might get a high peak serum level, but it would quickly diminish, and the area under the curve would not be greatly increased.

Possibly the combination of activators, cyanoastragenol and purslane extract that Anthony uses increaseds the amount delivered to the cells, but this is far from proven.

Luteolin inhibits sulfonation orders of magnitude more effectively than quercetin, but I do not know if sulfonation is a problem with cyanoastragenol; even so, luteolin activates Sirt1, which inhibits telomerase, which would be counter-productive. Quercetin inhibits Sirt1, much more than we suspected four years ago.

A better strategy might be to inhibit the effect of Sirt1 on telomerase when taking telomerase activators; N-acetyl cysteine has been found to do that.

Mutat Res. 2010 Jun 1;688(1-2):72-7. Epub 2010 Apr 2.
N-acetyl cysteine mitigates curcumin-mediated telomerase inhibition through rescuing of Sp1 reduction in A549 cells.
Hsin IL, Sheu GT, Chen HH, Chiu LY, Wang HD, Chan HW, Hsu CP, Ko JL.
Source
Institute of Medical and Molecular Toxicology, Chung Shan Medical University, Taichung, Taiwan, ROC.
Abstract
Curcumin is a natural compound that has been extensively observed due to its potential as an anticancer drug. Curcumin restrains cancer cell progression via telomerase activity suppression. However, the exact mechanism is still unknown. In this study, we demonstrate that the effects of curcumin on cell viability and telomerase activity can be blunted by reactive oxygen species (ROS) inhibitor N-acetyl cysteine (NAC). The ROS induced by curcumin in A549 cells was detected by flow cytometry. Using Western blot and RT-PCR, human telomerase reverse transcriptase (hTERT) decreased in the presence of curcumin. Sp1 is one of the important transcription factors in hTERT expression. Our data showed that curcumin decreases the expression of Sp1 through proteasome pathway. In addition, NAC blunted the Sp1 reduction and hTERT downregulation by curcumin. Further, reporter assay and DNA affinity precipitation assay confirmed the influence of curcumin on Sp1 in hTERT regulation. This is the first study to demonstrate that curcumin induces ROS production resulting in Sp1 binding activity inhibition and hTERT downregulation.

Copyright 2010 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

PMID: 20363232


Should work for resveratrol, and damp down any other telomerase inhibition, effectively increasing the availability or effectiveness of cyanoastragenol

But maybe Sirt1 is not bad for telomerase, as we have been thinking?

J Cell Biol. 2010 Dec 27;191(7):1299-313.
SIRT1 contributes to telomere maintenance and augments global homologous recombination.
Palacios JA, Herranz D, De Bonis ML, Velasco S, Serrano M, Blasco MA.
Source
Telomeres and Telomerase Group, Spanish National Cancer Centre, Madrid E-28029, Spain.
Abstract
Yeast Sir2 deacetylase is a component of the silent information regulator (SIR) complex encompassing Sir2/Sir3/Sir4. Sir2 is recruited to telomeres through Rap1, and this complex spreads into subtelomeric DNA via histone deacetylation. However, potential functions at telomeres for SIRT1, the mammalian orthologue of yeast Sir2, are less clear. We studied both loss of function (SIRT1 deficient) and gain of function (SIRT1(super)) mouse models. Our results indicate that SIRT1 is a positive regulator of telomere length in vivo and attenuates telomere shortening associated with aging, an effect dependent on telomerase activity. Using chromatin immunoprecipitation assays, we find that SIRT1 interacts with telomeric repeats in vivo. In addition, SIRT1 overexpression increases homologous recombination throughout the entire genome, including telomeres, centromeres, and chromosome arms. These findings link SIRT1 to telomere biology and global DNA repair and provide new mechanistic explanations for the known functions of SIRT1 in protection from DNA damage and some age-associated pathologies.

PMID: 2118732


The following is the only paper I could find that went into the metabolic pathways for Cycloastragenol.

Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 2010;25(5):477-86. Epub 2010 Sep 22.
In vitro intestinal absorption and first-pass intestinal and hepatic metabolism of cycloastragenol, a potent small molecule telomerase activator.
Zhu J, Lee S, Ho MK, Hu Y, Pang H, Ip FC, Chin AC, Harley CB, Ip NY, Wong YH.
Source
Biotechnology Research Institute, Department of Biochemistry, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, Hong Kong, China.
Abstract
Cycloastragenol (CAG) is the aglycone derivative of astragaloside IV which has recently been demonstrated to activate telomerase and represents a potential drug candidate for the treatment of degenerative diseases. In the present study, intestinal absorption and metabolism of CAG were examined using the Caco-2 model and liver microsomes, respectively. The results showed that CAG rapidly passes through the Caco-2 cell monolayer by passive diffusion. Four different glucuronide conjugates and two oxidized CAG metabolites were found in the apical and basolateral sides of Caco-2 monolayer, suggesting that first-pass intestinal metabolism of CAG might occur upon passage through the intestinal epithelium. CAG underwent extensive metabolism in rat and human liver microsomes with only 17.4% and 8.2%, respectively, of the starting amount of CAG remaining after 30 min of incubation. Monohydroxylation of the parent and oxidization of the hydroxylated CAG were found in the liver samples. The present study indicates that CAG is efficiently absorbed through intestinal epithelium. However, extensive first-pass hepatic metabolism would limit the oral bioavailability of this compound.

PMID: 20877137


If after studying the above, you are not as confused as I feel, then I have not properly conveyed my knowledge. We are like the blind men trying to describe an elephant....
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#1247 niner

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:30 AM

Since cycloastragenol is heavily glucuronidated, and that is likely to be the largest factor in its rapid disappearance from the bloodstream, it would be helpful if we could inhibit UDP glucuronosyl transferase (UGT), the enzyme family responsible for glucuronidation. It was thought that piperine (aka bioperine) was a UGT inhibitor, based on rodent experiments, but in humans, it's not an inhibitor. However, from the same paper, curcumin has an IC50 of 2.2uM for inhibiting the glucuronidation of acetaminophen in vitro in LS180 cells, a human model line. That's not much to grasp on to, since I have a feeling that hitting 2.2uM with curcumin is non-trivial. Might help some in the gut, though. I'd say it couldn't hurt, but I don't know if curcumin has any undesirable interactions with telomerase, which wouldn't surprise me.

#1248 maxwatt

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:55 AM

Since cycloastragenol is heavily glucuronidated, and that is likely to be the largest factor in its rapid disappearance from the bloodstream, it would be helpful if we could inhibit UDP glucuronosyl transferase (UGT), the enzyme family responsible for glucuronidation. It was thought that piperine (aka bioperine) was a UGT inhibitor, based on rodent experiments, but in humans, it's not an inhibitor. However, from the same paper, curcumin has an IC50 of 2.2uM for inhibiting the glucuronidation of acetaminophen in vitro in LS180 cells, a human model line. That's not much to grasp on to, since I have a feeling that hitting 2.2uM with curcumin is non-trivial. Might help some in the gut, though. I'd say it couldn't hurt, but I don't know if curcumin has any undesirable interactions with telomerase, which wouldn't surprise me.

The study I linked to (the abstract of) above stated that curcumin inhibits telomerase, but NAC mitigates this effect. So possibly curcumin, NAC with your cycloastragenol. Somehow I doubt it will work. But no one has tried and measured it.

#1249 johnross47

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 06:59 PM

Since cycloastragenol is heavily glucuronidated, and that is likely to be the largest factor in its rapid disappearance from the bloodstream, it would be helpful if we could inhibit UDP glucuronosyl transferase (UGT), the enzyme family responsible for glucuronidation. It was thought that piperine (aka bioperine) was a UGT inhibitor, based on rodent experiments, but in humans, it's not an inhibitor. However, from the same paper, curcumin has an IC50 of 2.2uM for inhibiting the glucuronidation of acetaminophen in vitro in LS180 cells, a human model line. That's not much to grasp on to, since I have a feeling that hitting 2.2uM with curcumin is non-trivial. Might help some in the gut, though. I'd say it couldn't hurt, but I don't know if curcumin has any undesirable interactions with telomerase, which wouldn't surprise me.

The study I linked to (the abstract of) above stated that curcumin inhibits telomerase, but NAC mitigates this effect. So possibly curcumin, NAC with your cycloastragenol. Somehow I doubt it will work. But no one has tried and measured it.

When Astral Fruit was just cycloastragenol I took it sublingually to avoid gut problems but the new formula contains too many unknowns.....would it be wise to use the same route?

#1250 McQueen

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 03:41 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Niner. I understood the thrust of it all but your posts are particularly dense with references that are very hard to find. I have no background in your area of expertise. Thanks again.
Here is my question: I am currently going the astragalus root and root extract (with half a gram of chitosan) route because I see tangible results from this. A knuckle on my finger that was swollen and painful for a year went to normal after 2 weeks of this routine. My skin has noticeably tightened everywhere. No more ripples on my arms or crepe paper on my hands. My jawline is better than ever. I have had 2 people lately that have said I look like I did 30 years ago. I have only been doing this since January with breaks of a few days or a week after each week long routine. I just finished a 2 week routine and I am thinking about taking 3 days off then back on.(with resveratrol and curcumin during days off) Is there any reason to take days off like Anthony suggests on cyloastragenol and Jim Green also suggests? I know some will think placebo effect as they read this post but I have really tried to be as objective and possibly jaded in my analysis of how this is working. I am currently using the Solgar brand (1gram with chitosan 3 times a day with meals)that Greenpower used when he got the increase in telomere length but have used other brands earlier. Although pricier, the Solgar product seems to have a fair amount of quality control. Any opinions on a good routine? Do you need to take breaks from the routine? Can I use resveratrol and other antioxidants when I am taking astragalus? I am writing this post and still can't quite believe what I am saying. This shit really seems to be working. (Sorry, I sometimes use a curse word for emphasis) Any thoughts or speculation on this post would be welcome.

#1251 unglued

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 07:54 PM

If Geron was getting results in the lab using TA-65, then it must have been getting into the cells enough to make a significant different.


You're right to use the word "lab", as opposed to "clinic", since Geron has not had a human trial of any of their telomerase activation drug candidates. But "lab" can mean either that they tested it on human cells in a petri dish (in which case they have no trouble getting anything they want into the cells since the cells don't have the rest of the body controlling what gets in), or that they tested it on non-human animals (which are imperfect models since different species don't metabolize drugs the same way).

As posted here previously (#387413), Geron's then-CEO mentioned in an investor webcast that Geron did go on to test at least one of its original drug candidates in animals, and found that they were not orally available in some of the species they tested them in. Since they found no evidence they'd be orally available in humans, they decided it would be hard to get approval for a human trial, so instead they decided to develop something that would work in all the animal subjects.

That molecule, while very active in up-regulating telomerase in so called telomerase competent cells, which pretty much means adult stem cells in the body, was variably orally available between different animal species, making an IND submission difficult.


So your conclusion is not warranted; if anything, the evidence suggests the opposite. And human trials being so expensive, time-consuming, and hard to get approval for, I suspect that's the last solid scientific result we're likely to hear about that particular molecule from Geron.

The drug candidate Geron is working toward possibly testing in humans in the future is TAT153, because that does work in animal models:

There was a rumor (that wound up being confirmed here, as I recall) that Geron's drug candidate TAT2 is cycloastragenol.

Geron's joint venture seems to have moved on from TAT2, having been busy screening 150 other compounds (judging from the numbering) until they found one that they successfully tested in mice:

Geron Corporation (Nasdaq: GERN) announced positive data on its orally available small molecule telomerase activator, TAT153, in an animal model of idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis (IPF). The data show that administration of TAT153 increased telomerase activity in the lung tissue, reduced inflammation, preserved functional lung tissue, slowed disease progression and attenuated loss of pulmonary function.
...
TAT153 is a novel and proprietary chemical entity.

-- Geron press release, 19 May 2010


I take it that "novel and proprietary" implies a new synthetic molecule made from scratch.



#1252 unglued

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:02 PM

On the topic of telomerase testing, the expense and frustrating imprecision of which has been much discussed here, this sounds very interesting. Anyone with access to the full text care to read it and summarize it in more detail?

Are Telomere Tests Ready for Prime Time?

Can the length of our telomeres, the protective caps at the ends of chromosomes that wear down as we get old, predict how well our bodies will age and our vulnerability to chronic diseases? Two new companies, both with heavyweight academic backing, are betting on it and have started or are planning to start performing telomere tests for the general public this year. But other leading telomere scientists say such tests are premature, if not virtually useless. On opposite sides of the issue are former collaborators Elizabeth Blackburn and Carol Greider, who, along with Jack Szostak of Harvard Medical School, shared the 2009 Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine for their telomere discoveries.

--- Science 22 April 2011:
Vol. 332 no. 6028 pp. 414-415



#1253 enfield

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:48 PM

I just looked into this very quickly, but milk thistle (among other things) may suppress the transcription of of UGTA1, a gene the encodes some of the enzymes that catalyze glucuronidation.

Based on our findings, inhibition of UGT1A1 by milk thistle and EGCG and to a lesser extent by echinacea and saw palmetto is plausible, particularly in the intestine where higher extract concentrations are anticipated. Further clinical studies are warranted.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20666626

#1254 Suzudo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:56 AM

http://www.lifelength.com/

?¿

#1255 niner

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:29 AM

http://www.lifelength.com/

?¿

That's Maria Blasco's company. They claim resolution to 200 base pairs, which is better that what's been commercially available so far.

Calvin Harley and Elizabeth Blackburn also have a company: http://www.telomehealth.com/index.html
They don't make any claims regarding resolution, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar.

#1256 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:26 PM

I do believe TAT153 is not from a natural source, and a new designer molecule that falls under FDA regulation as a drug.

I am all for it, if Geron can get it to human trials.

In regards to the RGTA complex:
Because of all the feedback here, we will probably sell out our current inventory of NF, and take 2-3 months to properly compare cell absorption in vitro and reformulate the next generation product for fast absorption. I expect some folks to stock up if they can't wait 2-3 months without the RGTA complex.

Cheers
A

#1257 bsm

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 07:37 PM

That's Maria Blasco's company. They claim resolution to 200 base pairs, which is better that what's been commercially available so far.


200bp is not bad but is this number derived from direct measurements of the cell? I've found that companies who advertise a resolution, are indirectly deriving this number from a statical equation based on a large sample of cells. Q-Fish method was not intended or possible to directly measure indiviual cells. I thought it was an method for determining the average length of a high throughput of cells and then deriving individual cell length from the spread. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but PCR, Q-Fish and microscopy methods can not directly measure the components of one cell.

What we need is a spread of direct individual cell measurements. The highest direct individual cell telomere length and the lowest. In addition to the the quantitative measurements of average length and a count of critially low length.

The only method I know that can handle the resolution required for direct measurements of individual cell proteins is still plasmon resonance

Edited by bsm, 09 May 2011 - 08:16 PM.


#1258 beachbum

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:03 AM

An economical source of astragalus products is at http://astragalus-source.com, and a site with a lot of information on astragalus and its effects, including a list of 300+ clinical studies that have been done is at http://vidainstitute.org

#1259 beachbum

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 11:27 PM

Anyone know of any economical sources for telomerase activators? (not TA-65 which is not economical nor available that I know of without entering into their protocol paid lab rat situation) To me these have the potential to put Resveratrol to shame with regards to extending lifespan.

Currently I take Astragalus standardized to 4% isoflavones at about a gram a day (though I have no idea how much astragalosides are in this I take it because it is cost effective) Also I take 500 mg of another product Natures Way standardized to 0.5% astragalosides. Alternatively you could get Gaia's product also standardized to 0.5% astragalosides. But both of these have so little astragalosides in them that in order to get 40-50 mg which I read somewhere was effective one would have to take a lot. There are also products standardized to 70% polysaccharides, which from what I have read would include some astragalosides. The whole issue is kind of muddy to me, any clarity would be appreciated.


I use 10:1 astragalus extract and raw astragalus and have gotten truly amazing results with it. I recommend the 10:1 extract, because it is an extract that is made by extracting the astragalus root with alcohol/water and evaporating it to produce a concentrate. 10kg of astragalus are used to make 1kg of concentrate. This type of concentrate contains all the components of natural astragalus, whereas "standardized" concentrates have the composition modified with some constituents reduced or removed in order to produce a concentrate having the specified amount of the target substance. Since it is not entirely clear which substances in natural astragalus are responsible for its beneficial effects or how they interrelate, and raw astragalus contains several compounds known to be telomerase activators, the safer bet is to use an extract that contains all of the constituents of natural astragalus. A discussion of this can be found at http://vidainstitute...php/astragalus.

An economical source of both astragalus extract and raw astragalus is http://astragalus-source.com.

Edited by beachbum, 25 May 2011 - 11:33 PM.


#1260 boylan

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 12:55 PM

Anyone know of any economical sources for telomerase activators? (not TA-65 which is not economical nor available that I know of without entering into their protocol paid lab rat situation) To me these have the potential to put Resveratrol to shame with regards to extending lifespan.

Currently I take Astragalus standardized to 4% isoflavones at about a gram a day (though I have no idea how much astragalosides are in this I take it because it is cost effective) Also I take 500 mg of another product Natures Way standardized to 0.5% astragalosides. Alternatively you could get Gaia's product also standardized to 0.5% astragalosides. But both of these have so little astragalosides in them that in order to get 40-50 mg which I read somewhere was effective one would have to take a lot. There are also products standardized to 70% polysaccharides, which from what I have read would include some astragalosides. The whole issue is kind of muddy to me, any clarity would be appreciated.


I use 10:1 astragalus extract and raw astragalus and have gotten truly amazing results with it. I recommend the 10:1 extract, because it is an extract that is made by extracting the astragalus root with alcohol/water and evaporating it to produce a concentrate. 10kg of astragalus are used to make 1kg of concentrate. This type of concentrate contains all the components of natural astragalus, whereas "standardized" concentrates have the composition modified with some constituents reduced or removed in order to produce a concentrate having the specified amount of the target substance. Since it is not entirely clear which substances in natural astragalus are responsible for its beneficial effects or how they interrelate, and raw astragalus contains several compounds known to be telomerase activators, the safer bet is to use an extract that contains all of the constituents of natural astragalus. A discussion of this can be found at http://vidainstitute...php/astragalus.

An economical source of both astragalus extract and raw astragalus is http://astragalus-source.com.



Beachbum,

Can you elaborate on "truly amazing results"?




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