2189 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

Which is still positive for humans.

If you add that to the growing data regarding astragalus combating cancer:
http://www.livestron...ragalus-cancer/
http://www.canceract...link.aspx?n=536

Along with it activating telomerase in the immune system (UCLA study), it is no wonder that some folks (including the lady in the video from a previous post) considers it beneficial even if you have cancer.

It certainly looks like a positive option.
However, if you are still on the fence... it's ok, I invite you to stay there until more information is available.

Cheers
A

[romtm]

Where I can find a source to buy astragalus extract,concentration 90:1 or 50:1,one year supply, bulk powder, with delivery to Europe?

I have only astragalus powder and is needed 20-25 grams/day in this form,and I don't like the taste.

Anthony,you take astragalus extract 90:1-maybe can help me.

Thanks in advance,

Andrei

[mpe]

When reading these posts on telomere extension, I am always disappointed by how long it takes to get any meaningful results. While I do appreciate Greenpower and Anthony's courage, efforts, willingness and personal expense to experiment on themselves and share their data as it has become available, I feel there has to be a better way.

The main problem with telomere research demonstrating its effectiveness is the continued use of mice. As we know mice have very long telomeres and have to be genetically modified in order to get any results when conducting telomere experiments.But surely a better animal would be an old test monkey, they have similar length telomeres to humans, suffer from similar diseases of aging and are already test animals.

I for one would be willing to contribute to the cost of acquiring such an animal for experimentation (humanely treated of course). We could purchase the animal and provide it to an appropriate researcher, who would then test "telomere extending products".

The great advantage would of course be that it's already old and if the product works it would be very obvious very quickly, also being a primate the products human applicability would not be in so much doubt. I think it would be a much better project to finance than cryopreservation.

[johnross47]

I would second that proposal. I couldn't contribute a lot but I would put in some.

Edited by johnross47, 02 March 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[romtm]

I also agree to contribute,but I doubt that is so simple and nobody has done it so far,especially a company that would have interest to sell supplements.

[niner]

The great advantage would of course be that it's already old and if the product works it would be very obvious very quickly,

I don't know... why would it be obvious any more quickly than in an older human? It would be pretty similar biology; I'd expect the current crop of telomerase activators to behave the same way in a monkey as in a human. We have thousands, probably tens of thousands of humans who are already taking various compounds for telomerase activation, we have a lot of anecdotes and we've seen the data on a few of them. There's something there, it's not the miracle that the hypesters make it out to be, but it's not nothing.

[johnross47]

Unfortunately we're not likely to get meaningful death rate statistics from those users. .....unless somebody could organise a group of volunteers big enough to achieve significance and collect data over the years. A lot of the users we hear about here are pretty young; the survey a while ago on people's ages didn't produce a lot of us oldies, but there might be something in it. Can anybody produce the predicted age related death rates for such a group? How long would we need to get people to go on checking in as still alive before we had a result?

[Louis]

The best candidate for a test animal so far appears to be the zebra finch (bird).

They're failry short lived like mice, but they appear to age telomerically like humans.
A recent paper (cited earlier in this thread) established a strong correlation between telomere length and age in zebra finches.

[johnross47]

Do you know if anyone is doing telomerase activator research with zebra finches?

[Anthony_Loera]

Acquiring animals, and meeting federal regulations regarding experimentation is quite costly, if you don't already have this up and running from the start.

Knowing this, I inquired with Dr. Valenzuela, and he told me he can come up with estimated costs regarding animals, maintenance personnel, a humane facility, lab equipment, etc. if a particular person or group would consider the private study and provide funding. This is not as cheap as folks think, to start up an animal testing facility. But I would consider it a good donation, to help create and and maintain such a facility for the benefit of various experiments. It's possible, the facility could be used by multiple scientists, similar to the UCLA flow cytometry lab.

However in our case, multi-year studies would be required for chimps, monkeys, orangutans.
We would be talking about 5 to 20 year studies.

If it is contracted out, it would probably run about $200,000 to $300,000 per year based on some inquiries I made 2 years ago, using orangutans (my inquiries were not telomere related). I am not sure that option would be available, but I now assume it's a low ballpark without looking into it some more.

If this becomes something serious for the group or a particular person who would like to fund such a project, please respond to me privately.

Cheers

A

[hav]

Do you know if anyone is doing telomerase activator research with zebra finches?

Looks like Iowa State University is doing some telomere research with them:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15247011
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15247011

Howard

Edited by hav, 02 March 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[mpe]

Niner, I don't mean keeping the animals from birth to death, but using really old animals to start with. If the telomere extending products worked we should see changes similar to the recent DiPhino experiment, if not the animal wouldn't live very long.
I'm not against experimenting on a very old human volunteer, but really that's pretty over the top, apart from the legal and ethical problems, you would have compliance and testing issues (what a nightmare). While I appreciate Anthony's and Greenpowers contributions, I doubt either is old enough to provide the necessary dramatic improvement to show the product works.
If the cost is really high as Anthony suggests perhaps we could approach the Life Extension Foundation for help.
Maybe we could get an existing lab to run the experiment for us for a modest fee.
Maybe a facility outside the US could run the experiment.

[niner]

Niner, I don't mean keeping the animals from birth to death, but using really old animals to start with. If the telomere extending products worked we should see changes similar to the recent DiPhino experiment, if not the animal wouldn't live very long.
I'm not against experimenting on a very old human volunteer, but really that's pretty over the top, apart from the legal and ethical problems, you would have compliance and testing issues (what a nightmare). While I appreciate Anthony's and Greenpowers contributions, I doubt either is old enough to provide the necessary dramatic improvement to show the product works.

Well, I don't expect we'd see a dramatic change like DePinho did, because he was using animals that had been genetically modified in such a way that they would run out of telomeres before they aged substantially from other causes. A wild-type animal would be very unlikely to show such a response. I like the Zebra Finch idea better than monkeys, because they're probably a thousand times cheaper and they have much shorter lives. We couldn't get decent statistics with the small number of monkeys that we could possibly afford.

[mpe]

Yes I know they were genetically modified and that's part of the problem. If its agreed that primates are out, but that another type of test animal (bird or whatever) is more useful and the group is willing to fund the testing I am quite happy to give money to the project.

As for not seeing dramatic results, why not? After all if telomere erosion is a major driver of aging, either through changing gene expression patterns or through causing replicatitive senescence, restoring telomere length should provide easily measured and or seen changes.

My only concern with using the Zebra Finch is that it still leaves the issue of "the products" efficacy on humans where as the use of monkeys would solve that.

[niner]

As for not seeing dramatic results, why not? After all if telomere erosion is a major driver of aging, either through changing gene expression patterns or through causing replicatitive senescence, restoring telomere length should provide easily measured and or seen changes.

The main reason why not is all the other forms of aging damage, like lipofuscin and other indigestible junk in the cells, glycation and other damage in the extracellular matrix, damaged mitochondria, nuclear mutations, cells that have become senescent for reasons other than telomere exhaustion, stem cell loss or dysfunction, and amyloidoses, both in the brain and in the rest of the body. Could it be the case that there is enough senescence caused by critically short telomeres to really be a problem, and that this would happen before all the other forms of damage would be a problem? Maybe, but I think the odds aren't very good. I still think telomere extension is a good thing to do; it seems to have some good outcomes and doesn't seem to have much of a downside so far. I just don't think that by itself it's going to make elderly people young again. For that, I think we should be supporting SENS.

[johnross47]

I think I would support both options here. They're not opposed, just different, and both worthwhile. There was a link somewhere to a talk by Aubrey de Grey where he identified seven different aspects of aging, one of which was telomere shortening. It should be worth doing research into that aspect of aging, while other people are getting into things like lipofuscin clearing enzymes and ways of refreshing mitochondria, etc.

[mpe]

We are largely in agreement, I support SENS and believe it will eventually deliver. But I like many others in this forum don't have another 50 or so years to see it come to fruition, at least not without help.

Telomere extension seems to me (and judging by the number of visitors to this and related topics in the forum) many others, to be one of the best chances to get us the extra years we need. I realize it wouldn't be "the cure" but think it would buy time.

That's why I have suggested animal testing of telomere extending products and am willing to put money into the venture.

I am a donor to SENS, a member of the LEF and if the Manhatton Beach Project ever gets off the ground a donor/shareholder of that too and I recommend everybody do the same.

[johnross47]

I'm with you there. I got my state pension last month so I have maybe 30-35 years by the usual rules. I was thinking along the lines of commissioning an existing animal research lab to carry out work using some of their aging animals, not starting up from scratch.

[smithx]

If people are going to embark on this kind of study, I strongly suggest that it be done with sufficient animals to actually see something useful.

If only one or two are used, the results are merely anecdotal. There's probably enough variation between animals both in the rate of telomere shortening and in their response to any particular chemical agent, that a good number would be needed to be sure that what's being seen isn't just a statistical anomaly, in either direction.

[1kgcoffee]

When reading these posts on telomere extension, I am always disappointed by how long it takes to get any meaningful results. While I do appreciate Greenpower and Anthony's courage, efforts, willingness and personal expense to experiment on themselves and share their data as it has become available, I feel there has to be a better way.

The main problem with telomere research demonstrating its effectiveness is the continued use of mice. As we know mice have very long telomeres and have to be genetically modified in order to get any results when conducting telomere experiments.But surely a better animal would be an old test monkey, they have similar length telomeres to humans, suffer from similar diseases of aging and are already test animals.

I for one would be willing to contribute to the cost of acquiring such an animal for experimentation (humanely treated of course). We could purchase the animal and provide it to an appropriate researcher, who would then test "telomere extending products".

The great advantage would of course be that it's already old and if the product works it would be very obvious very quickly, also being a primate the products human applicability would not be in so much doubt. I think it would be a much better project to finance than cryopreservation.

FANTASTIC idea. I would be happy to donate for this.

[Anthony_Loera]

I'm with you there. I got my state pension last month so I have maybe 30-35 years by the usual rules. I was thinking along the lines of commissioning an existing animal research lab to carry out work using some of their aging animals, not starting up from scratch.

I believe the 200k - 300k a year estimate would still apply.

It's certainly a good option.

A

[aaaaaaal]

Came across this video earlier today, learned a lot of useful info, thought I'd share it:

[romtm]

I'm with you there. I got my state pension last month so I have maybe 30-35 years by the usual rules. I was thinking along the lines of commissioning an existing animal research lab to carry out work using some of their aging animals, not starting up from scratch.

I believe the 200k - 300k a year estimate would still apply.

It's certainly a good option.

A

I don't know if this help.

In my country Romania(Europe)-the poorest country in EU-the running cost of this kind of facility (to keep monkey or other animals),can be 10 times cheaper.A worker cost 200-300 USD/month, a veterinary doctor visit cost 20 USD-but for one year contract,will be cheaper. I have friends with farms,raising animals,birds:sheeps,goats,cows,chicken,ducks,Also have fish farms.

To rent a small facility in a farm cost 100-300 USD/month.For blood test(special telomere lengh),I can send the samples with Fedex.Of course are other cost,like food, supplements.

My sister in law has a business with pets and food for pets and maybe can provide what we need.

Maybe I am optimistic,but I think that I can manage to keep some animals in good conditions,to give them supplements for activating telomerase and have a contract with a veterinary,and folow rules that we agree. If humans don't need any "aprovals" to take supplements like TA-65,maybe same rules apply to animals.

Anyway,we have in Romania millions of dogs without masters living on the streets,and the authorities must "euthanasia"-kill them- because they "multiply" and sometimes attack the humans.

[johnross47]

random stray dogs might be a more realistic model than lab animals. Not that I want to comment on the users of this forum or anything but....

[smithx]

Came across this video earlier today, learned a lot of useful info, thought I'd share it:

It was a fairly interesting video. It's thrust was that TA-65 might be useful to prevent cancer, to cure cancer, and to help recovery from chemotherapy.

The fact that they were so focused on TA-65 made me wonder if they were shills for the producers of TA-65, but it was still fairly interesting.

[niner]

It was a fairly interesting video. It's thrust was that TA-65 might be useful to prevent cancer, to cure cancer, and to help recovery from chemotherapy.

The fact that they were so focused on TA-65 made me wonder if they were shills for the producers of TA-65, but it was still fairly interesting.

Ed Park's business seems to revolve around prescribing TA-65 to patients. He was one of the earliest people outside of Patton's clinic that sold it. Thus, shilling is a possibility, though I didn't watch much of the video, so I don't know what he says there.

[AdamI]

Exercising is healthy in many ways. A new study from Karolinska Institutet shows that exercise can affect the DNA molecules in muscle cells positive, reports several media. In conjunction with physical activity clears the DNA on the so-called methyl groups - something that makes genes function better and the muscle cells could be used better at the next training session.

http://www.svd.se/ny...rna_6904737.svd
use swedish translate in google...

I have a question, does anyone know what they mean with Methyl groups?

[AdamI]

Found some more info:
Altered genes of a single exercise
It turns out that even a single exercise session actually altered genes, not the original genetic code - without labels that attach to DNA molecules in muscle cells.

- Our muscles are really malleable. They say often that you are what you eat. In the case of muscles, one could say you are what you do. If you do not use a muscle, you lose it, and the mechanism that we have now identified is out of this is done, says Juleen Zierath, professor of clinical integrative physiology at the Institute of Molecular Medicine and Surgery.

Coffee just as good
The genetic changes that occur during exercise are complex, but it would be simplified to say that after the training is not the same number of methyl groups fixed in the genes. And methyl groups can block the mechanisms by which muscle cells are used to the maximum.
The training thus seems clear away the obscuring genes and they can then develop your muscle cells to be used more optimally at the next training session.

A little unexpected incidental finding in this research study, published in the journal Cell Metabolism, is that caffeine seems to work pretty much the same on the methyl groups. Now if just the removal of the methyl groups were the only positive effects of exercise, it would therefore be just as effective to have an espresso. It would, however, KI researchers advise against, because all the other positive effects of exercise does not come with in that case.
http://mobil.svt.se/...er_battre_gener

Edited by AdamI, 07 March 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[smithx]

This newly published study looks like bad news. Apparently, telomeres are major sites of DNA damage regardless of their length, and that damage is not repaired well by comparison with double stranded DNA. This was true even when telomerase was active.

http://www.nature.co...ncomms1708.html

...in order to test the importance of DNA damage at telomeres in the ageing process, we investigated the presence of telomere-associated foci (TAF) in the gut and liver of mice, which have long telomeres and active telomerase but show increases of DNA damage foci frequencies in both tissues with age. We found an age-dependent increase in the frequencies of TAF in both the gut and liver. These data indicate that telomeres are important targets for genotoxic stress in vitro and in vivo with specific relevance for the induction of stress-induced senescence.
...

Our data also suggest that telomeric regions, despite occupying a minute fraction of the genome, are favoured targets for random DNA damage. In fact, previous work has demonstrated that telomeres are particularly sensitive to oxidative stress when compared with the bulk of the genome¹⁵ and less efficiently repaired when subjected to single-stranded breaks and UV-induced damage³⁵. It has been argued that this sensitivity to single-stranded breaks might be due to the fact that telomeric repeats contain guanine triplets that are remarkably sensitive to oxidative modifications^{36, 37}. These factors, coupled with the reported protection of telomeres from repair activities, may contribute to their specific targeting and persistent damage as a consequence of genotoxic stress. However, further work needs to be conducted in order to elucidate the characteristics of telomeres that make them particularly susceptible to damage.
We conclude that persistent telomere-associated damage is a frequent outcome of genotoxic stress and a component of stress-induced senescence, which is independent of telomerase activity and telomere length, and may contribute to age-related decline in the tissue function. This highlights the relevance of telomeres as targets of stress-related ageing.

Based on this, it seems clear that simply inducing telomerase is not the answer. Somehow we would have to both induce telomerase and increase the repair of these Telomerase Associated Foci (TAF) of DNA damage.

Any ideas?

[niner]

Based on this, it seems clear that simply inducing telomerase is not the answer. Somehow we would have to both induce telomerase and increase the repair of these Telomerase Associated Foci (TAF) of DNA damage.

I dunno. Telomeres may be a damage magnet, but what are the consequences of that damage? If the cell goes apoptotic, that's not so bad. Or maybe the telomeres could still fulfill their function with some damage. They say it may contribute to age-related decline in tissue function, but it doesn't sound like they know that it does.