21 replies to this topic

[oregon]

Many vitamins are actually made in China and manufacturers don't have to indicate it. ConsumerLab.com routinely finds detectable levels of lead in literally every third dietary supplement.

What I am saying is that it may be a good idea to test yourself for heavy metals. My doctor told me that no insurance covers this test and ordinary doctors don't do it all.

Do you guys know of any reliable lab that does the testing (for example hair mineral analysis) for a fair price? Maybe we could research this issue together?

Edited by oregon, 28 January 2008 - 08:30 AM.

[niner]

Many vitamins are actually made in China and manufacturers don't have to indicate it. ConsumerLab.com routinely finds detectable levels of lead in literally every third dietary supplement.

What I am saying is that it may be a good idea to test yourself for heavy metals. My doctor told me that no insurance covers this test and ordinary doctors don't do it all.

Do you guys know of any reliable lab that does the testing (for example hair mineral analysis) for a fair price? Maybe we could research this issue together?

There's a difference between "detectable" and "significant". Modern analytical methods are able to detect amounts of substances that arguably have no impact whatsoever on your health, but more importantly may be present at higher levels all around you in the air, water, soil, and food you eat. Even "organic" food.

ConsumerLab.com sells subscriptions to their data, so it's in their interest to keep people scared. I bet if you asked them how many supplements contained lead levels that were above levels considered safe by EPA or FDA or whoever regulates such things, the number would be very much smaller.

Blood tests for lead are done all the time. I had both my kids tested when they were around 2. You could get tested, and it wouldn't cost that much. They would find some detectable lead. It very likely would be lower than the amount considered dangerous. What you would have to ask yourself is "if I find out that I have some lead in me, (like everyone else) am I going to melt down and start having panic attacks?"

What would make sense is to only take supplements from known good quality manufacturers. Try not to live downwind of a coal burning facility, and don't eat paint chips.

When I was young, my lead level was probably ten times what my kids' is today. When I was little, all gasoline had lead in it. Toothpaste tubes were made of lead. Wine bottle tops were wrapped in lead foil... Maybe that's why I'm such a dope...

[oregon]

It's not just lead I am interested in. Consider mercury in fish, amalgams, and pesticides. (People had big health problems after eating bread because of this, I wish I had a link). There is also aluminum (which a neurotoxin) pollution in many foods. (For example, "baking powder" often actually has aluminum in it). And I want to see whether other metals are in normal amounts (not too much selenium and iron, for example).

Edited by oregon, 29 January 2008 - 04:31 AM.

[niner]

It's not just lead I am interested in. Consider mercury in fish, amalgams, and pesticides. (People had big health problems after eating bread because of this, I wish I had a link). There is also aluminum (which a neurotoxin) pollution in many foods. (For example, "baking powder" often actually has aluminum in it). And I want to see whether other metals are in normal amounts (not too much selenium and iron, for example).

OK, I see what you're getting at. Iron is commonly checked. In fact, I'm getting a ferritin level in a couple weeks. It's on the list of common blood tests at the health system I use. Once I know my iron level, I'll donate blood in order to drop it if needed. Aside from Iron and lead, I'm not sure that any of the other "toxins" are commonly run, although I'm sure that you could get at least some of them through your doctor if he or she thought it was warranted. However, absent any sign of toxicity, it probably would not be considered worth doing. I've seen a company on the web that will run just about any test if you're willing to pay for them. I don't remember who they were, but you might find it with Google.

[oregon]

I've seen a company on the web that will run just about any test if you're willing to pay for them. I don't remember who they were, but you might find it with Google.

Thanks for your help. The whole problem is that toxicity is hard to distinguish from something else. For example, I heard that some types of heart disease are actually caused by mercury and doctors just do operations (to make more money?) instead of removing mercury from the body.
Aluminum toxicity is very tricky. One woman used to eat lots of cookies with this "baking powder". Just after three years she had significant memory loss. Her doctor told her that "she was getting old". The woman's memory restored over time after she stopped eating aluminum.

[krillin]

Many vitamins are actually made in China and manufacturers don't have to indicate it. ConsumerLab.com routinely finds detectable levels of lead in literally every third dietary supplement.

What I am saying is that it may be a good idea to test yourself for heavy metals. My doctor told me that no insurance covers this test and ordinary doctors don't do it all.

Do you guys know of any reliable lab that does the testing (for example hair mineral analysis) for a fair price? Maybe we could research this issue together?

Before I figured out that a mold allergy was killing me, I had a lot of testing done. One doctor had me collect 24 hours worth of urine (kept the jug in the fridge) and had it tested by Quest for mercury, lead, and arsenic. All three came back "< 10 mcg/L". I take about $250/month worth of supps, so I don't think we have to worry about metals from that source.

It would be worth trying out your insurance at different places. With mine, I get something like a 20% discount for tests at hospitals. But Labcorp tests are about 90% off. (Have to get blood drawn at a Labcorp office or a doctor's office, not a hospital that sends it to Labcorp.)

[oregon]

Another thing, there are reports that mega-vitamin supplementation causes havoc in human biochemistry. For example, higher than RDA vitamin C presumably leads to copper deficiency and B complex leads to zinc toxicity.

I don't know whether it is true or not, but apparently many doctors think so. Vitamin C given to rats lead them to develop copper deficiency. One child who was given B-complex for ADHD over long time was diagnosed with zinc toxicity.

I am NOT sure whether B-complex was the sole factor, but still, I believe, testing is important.

Hair mineral analysis is a lot better and more precise than urine or blood tests. I have been looking for a lab with certifications and modern equipment. This one looks interesting. I don't like their website though.
http://www.analysiso...ysis/index.html

[niner]

Hair mineral analysis is a lot better and more precise than urine or blood tests. I have been looking for a lab with certifications and modern equipment. This one looks interesting. I don't like their website though.
http://www.analysiso...ysis/index.html

At least they don't cost all that much. I would try to do a little research into the company, if you haven't already. I notice that they charge extra for "interpretation" of results. I wonder what that means, exactly? If you do this, you should post the results.

[oregon]

Hair mineral analysis is a lot better and more precise than urine or blood tests. I have been looking for a lab with certifications and modern equipment. This one looks interesting. I don't like their website though.
http://www.analysiso...ysis/index.html

At least they don't cost all that much. I would try to do a little research into the company, if you haven't already. I notice that they charge extra for "interpretation" of results. I wonder what that means, exactly? If you do this, you should post the results.

I think they will scare you and then offer some supplements. It seems that the same company also makes dietary supplements. Also it does not clear say that they have certification. Just a vague, "we use CLIA methods".

I will keep looking. I think most people should consider testing.

By the way, the official medicine seems to be overwhelmingly against hair mineral analysis (which is the best for determining metal levels). The only thing they ask you is which drugs you are taking or if you have a family history of a disease. Consider how many cases of heart disease could be eliminated if people knew they had copper toxicity. And similar for many other metals.

Edited by oregon, 03 February 2008 - 08:48 AM.

[oregon]

Have been lazy recently, but I will look more. Here is a link to Zn toxicity caused by B-Complex: http://www.acu-cell.com/bx.html

Edited by oregon, 05 February 2008 - 06:34 AM.

[krillin]

Have been lazy recently, but I will look more. Here is a link to Zn toxicity caused by B-Complex: http://www.acu-cell.com/bx.html

Acu-cell is a kook's site.

[oregon]

Have been lazy recently, but I will look more. Here is a link to Zn toxicity caused by B-Complex: http://www.acu-cell.com/bx.html

Acu-cell is a kook's site.

Maybe. On the other hand, the guy is a doctor. My father is also a doctor and he told me the same thing. Perhaps it is an old theory.
Besides B-complex, Vitamin C given to rats led them to develop copper deficiency. The same should theoretically be applicable to humans.

I think testing is important if you taking above RDA vitamins (considering that no official organization tests them for quality, as I mentioned, and they may be actually made in a shady Chinese lab with lead paint falling from the ceiling).

I personally take a lot of supplements so I am very anxious about their quality.

If you have time, please start a campaign for official testing of vitamins. I would sign the petition and even donate some money.

Edited by oregon, 06 February 2008 - 04:51 AM.

[pro-d]

Supplements aside there are detrimental materials everywhere in food and the environment, so I try to remain calm in that even British air could kill me!
If I'm going to go above the RDA on something I'll make sure to get tested. In the end, the net benefit of supplements at useful doses are worth it.

[krillin]

Acu-cell is a kook's site.

Maybe. On the other hand, the guy is a doctor. My father is also a doctor and he told me the same thing. Perhaps it is an old theory.
Besides B-complex, Vitamin C given to rats led them to develop copper deficiency. The same should theoretically be applicable to humans.

His being a doctor makes it even worse, since he should know better. How can any rational person believe that you can accurately measure vitamins and minerals by sticking an electrode into someone? A better source of basic information is the series of National Academies Press books on the DRIs. No effect of vitamin C on copper is listed, just zinc, iron, and fructose.

http://books.nap.edu...i...26&page=233

Probably because even 2 grams of C has no effect.

J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1994 Oct;40(5):401-10.
Effect of vitamin C on copper and iron status in men and guinea pigs.
Pekiner B, Nebioglu S.
Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Ankara, Tandogan, Turkey.

Healthy individual were given 2 g of vitamin C per day for 2 months. Whole blood iron, ascorbic acid, hemoglobin, and serum ceruloplasmin were determined at the beginning, and 1 or 2 months after the start of the experiment. The concentration of ascorbic acid was observed to increase significantly in the blood, while blood iron, hemoglobin, and serum ceruloplasmin levels significantly increased at the end of the 1st month, but decreased to control levels at the end of the 2nd month. Male albino guinea pigs were administered 8, 180, and 360 mg of vitamin C per day for 2 months. Liver ferritin iron, liver copper, serum copper, and serum ceruloplasmin levels significantly decreased, but there was no significant change in hemosiderin iron while blood ascorbic acid significantly increased at the end of the 2 month period. There was no significant change in serum iron and hematocrit levels. These results suggest that vitamin C has an antagonistic effect on copper metabolism in guinea pigs but not in humans either on copper or iron metabolisms.

PMID: 7891201

Zinc has interactions with iron, calcium, phosphorus, copper, folate (low zinc sometimes lowers folate), protein, phytate, and picolinate.

http://books.nap.edu...i...26&page=455

[oregon]

Acu-cell is a kook's site.

Maybe. On the other hand, the guy is a doctor. My father is also a doctor and he told me the same thing. Perhaps it is an old theory.
Besides B-complex, Vitamin C given to rats led them to develop copper deficiency. The same should theoretically be applicable to humans.

His being a doctor makes it even worse, since he should know better. How can any rational person believe that you can accurately measure vitamins and minerals by sticking an electrode into someone? A better source of basic information is the series of National Academies Press books on the DRIs. No effect of vitamin C on copper is listed, just zinc, iron, and fructose.

http://books.nap.edu...i...26&page=233

Probably because even 2 grams of C has no effect.

J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 1994 Oct;40(5):401-10.
Effect of vitamin C on copper and iron status in men and guinea pigs.
Pekiner B, Nebioglu S.
Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Ankara, Tandogan, Turkey.

Healthy individual were given 2 g of vitamin C per day for 2 months. Whole blood iron, ascorbic acid, hemoglobin, and serum ceruloplasmin were determined at the beginning, and 1 or 2 months after the start of the experiment. The concentration of ascorbic acid was observed to increase significantly in the blood, while blood iron, hemoglobin, and serum ceruloplasmin levels significantly increased at the end of the 1st month, but decreased to control levels at the end of the 2nd month. Male albino guinea pigs were administered 8, 180, and 360 mg of vitamin C per day for 2 months. Liver ferritin iron, liver copper, serum copper, and serum ceruloplasmin levels significantly decreased, but there was no significant change in hemosiderin iron while blood ascorbic acid significantly increased at the end of the 2 month period. There was no significant change in serum iron and hematocrit levels. These results suggest that vitamin C has an antagonistic effect on copper metabolism in guinea pigs but not in humans either on copper or iron metabolisms.

PMID: 7891201

Zinc has interactions with iron, calcium, phosphorus, copper, folate (low zinc sometimes lowers folate), protein, phytate, and picolinate.

http://books.nap.edu...i...26&page=455

Thanks for posting this! I don't really understand why it is guinea pigs but not humans. Perhaps guinea pigs synthesize vitamin C.

Where did you get information about Zinc and Vitamin C? I would love to see a link.

I personally get a little tired after taking vitamin C. I thought it was because copper was being removed. Does it happen to you?

Edited by oregon, 07 February 2008 - 04:40 PM.

[krillin]

Where did you get information about Zinc and Vitamin C? I would love to see a link.

I personally get a little tired after taking vitamin C. I thought it was because copper was being removed. Does it happen to you?

The final link in my post was to the zinc chapter. There was no mention of any interaction with C.

I don't notice any fatigue from C, but others do.

http://www.thenutrit.../Free-rads.html

Edited by krillin, 07 February 2008 - 05:56 PM.

[oregon]

The final link in my post was to the zinc chapter. There was no mention of any interaction with C.

I don't notice any fatigue from C, but others do.

http://www.thenutrit.../Free-rads.html

Thanks for the link. What about B-complex? Are you taking it? Do you feel a little sleepy or tired?

I thought it was because of the B-6 vitamin. It boosts serotonin levels. But I am not really sure (you know, that zinc toxicity graph in one of my previous posts).

[krillin]

Thanks for the link. What about B-complex? Are you taking it? Do you feel a little sleepy or tired?

Only with 400-500 mg inositol hexanicotinate/day. It lowers cAMP, so it's like an anti-caffeine pill.

My B stack is

150 mg benfotiamine
10 mg B2
250 mg inositol hexanicotinate (2/week)
50 mg B5
10 mg B6
1.5 mg methylcobalamin
100 mcg folic acid
800 mcg folinic acid (to bypass the bottleneck from folate to dihydrofolate)
1.3 mg biotin
500 mg TMG (homocysteine is only 3.0 so I don't need more)
250 mg CDP choline

[oregon]

I think you are taking a pretty good stack. I would probably replace the niacin form you are taking with niacinamide since I think this is the natural form. And I would take it every day because it is dangerous to abruptly stop large doses of vitamins.

Regarding the link in previous post, I think it is also important to use quality vitamins (Somebody please start a movement for governmental testing of vitamins!). For example, GNC vitamin E was making me sick. I switched to another brand and everything was fine. CL tests only for lead, there are well over 100,000 other compounds dangerous to humans.

You made me more optimistic. I shamefully acknowledge that I should have researched more scientific experiments. But still I think I will get tested. On one ADHD board, I read a post by one mother. He child, who had ADHD, was tested for metals. They found aluminum toxicity. (That was not surprising since aluminum actually causes ADHD). But they also found zinc toxicity, and she mentioned that she was giving her son B-complex. I mean, it is hard to get zinc toxicity from the environment.

Besides I am a white male. So I am considering adding some extra zinc. I don't want to have copper/zinc imbalance so I think it would not hurt to test, just cannot find a certified lab.

Btw, can a blood test reliably show copper/zinc levels?

[krillin]

I think you are taking a pretty good stack. I would probably replace the niacin form you are taking with niacinamide since I think this is the natural form. And I would take it every day because it is dangerous to abruptly stop large doses of vitamins.

Niacinamide is a SIRT1 inhibitor. I'd take the niacin daily if I could find a smaller capsule. What I'm doing should be good enough, since the biological half lives of B vitamins are pretty large. I can't find any numbers for niacin, but B1's is 9-18 days, B6's is 25 days, and folic acid's is 8 weeks.

[oregon]

Thanks for posting. I did not know it was so long.

I am not really sure. I personally try not to skip. Mayo Clinic ran a trial in the 80s or late 70s on vitamin C and cancer. They were giving patients large doses of vitamin C. Then they abruptly stopped vitamin C. In the end the vitamin C group had higher mortality. So there were headlines in newspapers: "Vitamin C makes cancer worse" and so on.

I apologize for non-professional language, but many of these reporters who write health news articles are just dumb idiots who have no clue what is going on. That famous "studies show".

[oregon]

I've been bothered with the question why does Vitamin C causes copper deficiency in guinea pigs, but not humans. Guinea pigs are in many ways similar to humans (therefore they are being used for all sorts of experiments). They don't make their own vitamin C and need to get it from the environment.

I could not find any studies done on humans (I am sure they do exist, but it appears there are only recent studies on pubmed). Krillin, do you know where to find older studies?

I would conclude that a very large dose of Vitamin C will cause copper deficience in humans. Even water is toxic in giant amounts. 2g appears to be safe (over two months). The question that bothers me is long term intake.