34 replies to this topic

[ikaros]

Because I've been under a lot of stress (college, work etc) from the beginning of this year, I thought giving a 5-HTP a try, to make things go "smoother". Well it did go smoother, until everything was so smooth that I started lose interest in most of the things I usually find thrilling and interesting.
The first week was OK. Felt slightly spaced out, peaceful, slept very well.
On the second week the inital side-effects wore out, but all of a sudden I started feeling this odd hue coloring most of my feelings. It's very difficult to articulate this bizarre emotion, but it felt as everything was standing distrubingly still or the present moment felt like past. This is at least how I would describe this, even though everything was occuring on the emotional level, not like I was going mad or losing contact with reality. Overall I didn't find this very comfortable.
On the third week things started to get even more bizarre. The previously mentioned feelings intensified, also I felt my motivation was dropping (even though I wasn't feeling depressed, at least not much), I started having difficulties with concentrating on my studies, I got bored easily - everything felt pointless. In addition the "hue" I felt behind my emotions became more like a disgust mixed with dysthymia...towards everything...and without any reason.
Anyway this was the point I decided to drop 5-HTP. I have slowly started to feel better and the wierd emotional perceptions have subsided.

Has anyone had similar experiences with 5-HTP? The cause must be serotonergic, but it also baffles me, because I've taken SSRIs in the past and never felt so literally falling out of reality. This stuff is scary and it's advertised as a natural all-good alternative to pharmaceuticals??

[stillalive]

Sounds really weird. But I also had a very odd experience with 5Htp when I started with it. After a week i started to feel that i don't feel anything really. I became really tired and my feelings become "blunted". I really tried to just experience something, listed to music, went out and took long walks, hoping that fresh air would awoke me from the "terror". But, no. The only feeling i felt was irritation and apathy. yes, apathy is the right word for the effects.

But they ended after a few weeks, perhaps it was the phenylalanine I added that helped. I think sertonine enhancers(many SSRI have nordadrenic and dopaminic effects too) need to be combined with something stimulating like DL-phenylalanine.

I took 150mg when i started, now I have successfully used 200mg over a half year and 5HTP almost a year. In the beginning the only thing i took was 5HTP and rhodiola. How much 5HTP did you used? Did you combine it with anything?

[ikaros]

I only used 100 mg. I don't see anything that would interact with it, maybe modafinil, but hardly plausible. As I see it, 5HTP fires indiscriminately all serotonin receptors (ADs are more selective), even the ones that make you feel psychedelic (e.g. 5-HT 2A , the receptor that LSD also loves to activate).

[brotherx]

I dropped 5HTP 6 years back because of strange side effects (not feeling good, verbal skill issues, etc.).

Cheers

Alex

I only used 100 mg. I don't see anything that would interact with it, maybe modafinil, but hardly plausible. As I see it, 5HTP fires indiscriminately all serotonin receptors (ADs are more selective), even the ones that make you feel psychedelic (e.g. 5-HT 2A , the receptor that LSD also loves to activate).

[kenj]

Well, perhaps 'all serotonin, and no dopamine makes ikaros a dull boy' ;-),

[dopamine]

5-HTP is going to increase serotonin "whole-sale" because it is a direct precursor, thereby bypassing the regulatory rate-limiting enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase. 5-HTP is most likely decarboxylated to a large degree in the gut prior to reaching the portal circulation (like L-Dopa), which could result in increased peripheral (tissue) serotonin levels (as the neurotransmitter itself cannot cross the BBB). I'm not surprised to hear strange experiences with 5-HTP because simply increasing serotonin non-selectively will have very unpredictable effects.

Edited by dopamine, 20 February 2008 - 06:47 PM.

[ikaros]

5-HTP is going to increase serotonin "whole-sale" because it is a direct precursor, thereby bypassing the regulatory rate-limiting enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase. 5-HTP is most likely decarboxylated to a large degree in the gut prior to reaching the portal circulation (like L-Dopa), which could result in increased peripheral (tissue) serotonin levels (as the neurotransmitter itself cannot cross the BBB). I'm not surprised to hear strange experiences with 5-HTP because simply increasing serotonin non-selectively will have very unpredictable effects.

Isn't 5-HTP's conversion rate-limited by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase?

[dopamine]

5-HTP is going to increase serotonin "whole-sale" because it is a direct precursor, thereby bypassing the regulatory rate-limiting enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase. 5-HTP is most likely decarboxylated to a large degree in the gut prior to reaching the portal circulation (like L-Dopa), which could result in increased peripheral (tissue) serotonin levels (as the neurotransmitter itself cannot cross the BBB). I'm not surprised to hear strange experiences with 5-HTP because simply increasing serotonin non-selectively will have very unpredictable effects.

Isn't 5-HTP's conversion rate-limited by aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase?

Aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase (AADC) is not "rate-limiting" in the same sense as the amino acid enzymatic reactions; rather, it is the immediate substrate for conversion of 5-HTP to 5-HT (serotonin). This is why inhibition of AADC by carbidopa is necessary for the efficacy of L-Dopa in the treatment of Parkinson's Disease (PD), as AADC "rapidly" metabolizes the immediate precursor substance (e.g. 5-HTP) to the neurotransmitter molecule both in the gut and brain. The reaction is different from that, for example, of tyrosine or tryptophan hydroxylase, which regulate the amount of synthesized and incorporated dietary amino acids and subsequently converted immediate neurotransmitter precursors in the brain.

Edited by dopamine, 22 February 2008 - 02:28 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

"On the second week the inital side-effects wore out, but all of a sudden I started feeling this odd hue coloring most of my feelings. It's very difficult to articulate this bizarre emotion, but it felt as everything was standing distrubingly still or the present moment felt like past. This is at least how I would describe this, even though everything was occuring on the emotional level, not like I was going mad or losing contact with reality. Overall I didn't find this very comfortable.
On the third week things started to get even more bizarre. The previously mentioned feelings intensified, also I felt my motivation was dropping (even though I wasn't feeling depressed, at least not much), I started having difficulties with concentrating on my studies, I got bored easily - everything felt pointless. In addition the "hue" I felt behind my emotions became more like a disgust mixed with dysthymia...towards everything...and without any reason."

This is how I feel all the time, and I don't take 5-HTP. I'd love to find a sup/noot to get rid of this.

[ikaros]

This is how I feel all the time, and I don't take 5-HTP. I'd love to find a sup/noot to get rid of this.

Tyrosine and phenylalanine are suppose to reduce derealization feelings. In fact I immediately started taking tyrosine when the abovementioned freakshow started to get out of hand, I recovered in 1,5 days.

[stillalive]

This is how I feel all the time, and I don't take 5-HTP. I'd love to find a sup/noot to get rid of this.

Tyrosine and phenylalanine are suppose to reduce derealization feelings. In fact I immediately started taking tyrosine when the abovementioned freakshow started to get out of hand, I recovered in 1,5 days.

Then you got the same result as I got. So we could conclude that 5HTP should be combined with Tyrosine and phenylalanine for effective and safe effects.

But it would be interesting to know why 5HTP cause derealization feelings, is it connected to the receptors that cause psychedelic feelings or something else?

[stephen_b]

How much tyrosine did you take?

Stephen

[kiriel]

This is a very interesting post as I agree with the author with the effects. I do not dare to use 5-HTP these days because of this effect.

Is there any difference between using Tyrosine and Phenylalanine and if so, what? Should they be consumed together? What is the pro's/con's of both of them from your personal experience?

Thanks.

Edited by kiriel, 24 February 2008 - 09:34 PM.

[stillalive]

This is a very interesting post as I agree with the author with the effects. I do not dare to use 5-HTP these days because of this effect.

Is there any difference between using Tyrosine and Phenylalanine and if so, what? Should they be consumed together? What is the pro's/con's of both of them from your personal experience?

Thanks.

I recommend phenylalanine even if I haven't used tyrosine, but haven't really heard anything good about it. With tyrosine you need many grams to have an effect but already 300mg of DL-phenylalanine(DLPA) have an antidepressant effect on it's own. DLPA also stimulate PEA release(can in high doses give euphoria) and endorphins release by inhibiting a endorphin destroying enzyme, besides converting to dopamine and noradrenaline.

I now use 250-300mg/day and have good effect. Makes me in a better mood, more energized and more talkative. But 300mg is a small dose so it's not sure that you will feel the effects. Have tried higher doses like 800-1200mg(then i feel immediate effect after every dose) and had good effects a few weeks then it become too much, i got irritated, hyperactive,anxious,got insomnia and become too talkative and childish.
But be sure to take it on a empty stomach or it will be useless!

[dopamine]

This is a very interesting post as I agree with the author with the effects. I do not dare to use 5-HTP these days because of this effect.

Is there any difference between using Tyrosine and Phenylalanine and if so, what? Should they be consumed together? What is the pro's/con's of both of them from your personal experience?

Thanks.

Phenylalanine is converted to L-Tyrosine, but the former, especially in racemic form, has benefits independent of the latter in terms of benefits in mood. The amount converted to phenethylamine is probably negligible, however, as MAO-B deaminates elevations of the trace amine in the brain.. D-phenylalanine has some independent analgesic properties through inhibiting the degradation of enkephalin by enzyme carboxypeptidase. DL-PA or L-Tyrosine may be more appropriate depending on what you are intending to accomplish.

[OneScrewLoose]

I love L-Tyrosine but it makes me poop. A lot. Three times in an hour last time I took it.

[kiriel]

Thanks for your information. I have only tried L-Tyrosine earlier and I associate it with the awaken/assertive factors of my mind. I am going to buy some Phenylalanine to try out the effects and see how I react to it. Any suggestions of initial dosage?

[stillalive]

Thanks for your information. I have only tried L-Tyrosine earlier and I associate it with the awaken/assertive factors of my mind. I am going to buy some Phenylalanine to try out the effects and see how I react to it. Any suggestions of initial dosage?

For daily use i would recommend 300mg on an empty stomach, same doses is often used in studies. But if you want to feel something directly 600-700mg should be enough. I feel the effect builds up after some days but tolerance can develop after long time use. But if you don't notice anything after some days you can raise the dose. Often a high dose can be nice, but in the long term i feel it becomes disturbing.
If i stop taking it for some days, i don't see big changes for the first days but after a week I'm sure I lost the good effects. But i think it's highly individual which dose is the best one.

But be sure to take it on an empty stomach!

[sthira]

all of a sudden I started feeling this odd hue coloring most of my feelings. It's very difficult to articulate this bizarre emotion, but it felt as everything was standing distrubingly still or the present moment felt like past. This is at least how I would describe this, even though everything was occuring on the emotional level, not like I was going mad or losing contact with reality. Overall I didn't find this very comfortable....also I felt my motivation was dropping (even though I wasn't feeling depressed, at least not much), I started having difficulties with concentrating... I got bored easily - everything felt pointless. In addition the "hue" I felt behind my emotions became more like a disgust ...towards everything...and without any reason.

You're extremely articulate, and I thank you for your writing. It is very vivid, and very true. Sounds like you've been reading Sartre. It also sounds like you're describing the experience of encroaching adulthood. I say this to you without sarcasm and without any hint of irony: welcome to real time awareness of the maturation process. Perhaps the 5-htp sped things up some in your brain, now you notice these events. Probably not. Probably it's a combination of life experiences and you're crediting some new supplement you're taking. No matter. Existential angst is a side-effect of being a smart, self-aware person who is slowly developing an interior life while simutaneously watching it occur.

My quiet advice? Stay humble, look your horror in the eye with courage, stay with what makes you uncomfortable and intensely awkward, and slowly you may begin to recognize the miracle of being human. I know this sounds hoo-haa new agey. But, whatever.

[Rags847]

all of a sudden I started feeling this odd hue coloring most of my feelings. It's very difficult to articulate this bizarre emotion, but it felt as everything was standing distrubingly still or the present moment felt like past. This is at least how I would describe this, even though everything was occuring on the emotional level, not like I was going mad or losing contact with reality. Overall I didn't find this very comfortable....also I felt my motivation was dropping (even though I wasn't feeling depressed, at least not much), I started having difficulties with concentrating... I got bored easily - everything felt pointless. In addition the "hue" I felt behind my emotions became more like a disgust ...towards everything...and without any reason.

You're extremely articulate, and I thank you for your writing. It is very vivid, and very true. Sounds like you've been reading Sartre.

Speaking of Satre, here are some excellent documentaries about him that I was just watching yesterday:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
Existentialism is awesome!
I find it empowering.
You can always make something out of yourself, no matter what you've been made into.
You are free to choose (to a degree) vs determined and powerless before all the forces from the inside and outside impinging on you.
Existence precedes essence! You can choose what you are and become (your essence).

Edited by Rags847, 08 March 2008 - 06:25 AM.

[wolfeye]

I had a really bad experience with 5HTP... fatigue, apathy and lethargy.
I think the problem is that the body converts most of it to melatonin and puts me in lethargic state.

Henry

[pycnogenol]

Once in a while I'll pop a 50 mg capsule of 5-HTP and sleep well. I certainly don't rely on it on a regular basis for sleep nor any supplement for that matter.

I'm all about cycling supplements. I err on the cautious/careful side when it comes to taking supplements, the lone exception being vitamin C.

But that's just me. YMMV.

Edited by pycnogenol, 11 March 2008 - 04:43 PM.

[lynx]

All of the supporting research for using 5-HTP done in Europe is done with a decarboxylase inhibitor like Carbidopa to prevent peripheral decarboxylation. Also, if you take B6, most of the 5-HTP won't make it to the brain. And then there is the Peak X impurity in 5-HTP, which has been hypothesized to be a neurotoxin.

Bottom line, take tryptophan on an empty stomach.

[stephen_b]

I had a really bad experience with 5HTP... fatigue, apathy and lethargy.
I think the problem is that the body converts most of it to melatonin and puts me in lethargic state.

Henry

I just noted on the tryptophan thread I started that taking 3 g of vitamin C with 500 mg tryptophan eliminated sleepiness for me. I've chosen to avoid 5HTP for the same reason others have stated -- it seems to bypass the body's control loop and increases serotonin indiscriminately. I'd rather supply the tryptophan and let my body decide how much serotonin to make out of it.

Stephen

[stillalive]

I don't think tryptophan is a much better idea. Some of it gets converted to cytokines , which isn't necessarily a good thing.

5HTP is not a perfect solution but in my opinion an excellent alternative to SSRI. If you combine 5HTP with DL-PA you should get good results. One shouldn't forget that there is a lot of research showing 5HTP is effective against depression. But if you want to start using 5 HTP a careful approach is a good idea.

[lynx]

I don't think tryptophan is a much better idea. Some of it gets converted to cytokines , which isn't necessarily a good thing.

5HTP is not a perfect solution but in my opinion an excellent alternative to SSRI. If you combine 5HTP with DL-PA you should get good results. One shouldn't forget that there is a lot of research showing 5HTP is effective against depression. But if you want to start using 5 HTP a careful approach is a good idea.

Yes, if you read the research on 5-htp it is done with carbidopa. You don't think 5-htp can be dehydroxylated and converted into cytokines? Plus, if tryptophan cytokines are a real problem, then you shouldn't eat protein, period.

[ortcloud]

This is how I feel all the time, and I don't take 5-HTP. I'd love to find a sup/noot to get rid of this.

Tyrosine and phenylalanine are suppose to reduce derealization feelings. In fact I immediately started taking tyrosine when the abovementioned freakshow started to get out of hand, I recovered in 1,5 days.

I feel a little strange like this when I take 1,000 ius of vitamin d. Vitamin d does increase tyrosine hydroxylase so maybe there is a correlation.

[arvcondor]

I don't think tryptophan is a much better idea. Some of it gets converted to cytokines , which isn't necessarily a good thing.

5HTP is not a perfect solution but in my opinion an excellent alternative to SSRI. If you combine 5HTP with DL-PA you should get good results. One shouldn't forget that there is a lot of research showing 5HTP is effective against depression. But if you want to start using 5 HTP a careful approach is a good idea.

Yes, if you read the research on 5-htp it is done with carbidopa. You don't think 5-htp can be dehydroxylated and converted into cytokines? Plus, if tryptophan cytokines are a real problem, then you shouldn't eat protein, period.

Can you explain what cytokines are and why they're bad?

[stillalive]

I don't think tryptophan is a much better idea. Some of it gets converted to cytokines , which isn't necessarily a good thing.

5HTP is not a perfect solution but in my opinion an excellent alternative to SSRI. If you combine 5HTP with DL-PA you should get good results. One shouldn't forget that there is a lot of research showing 5HTP is effective against depression. But if you want to start using 5 HTP a careful approach is a good idea.

Yes, if you read the research on 5-htp it is done with carbidopa. You don't think 5-htp can be dehydroxylated and converted into cytokines? Plus, if tryptophan cytokines are a real problem, then you shouldn't eat protein, period.

Can you explain what cytokines are and why they're bad?

Cytokines are inflammatory substances, http://microvet.ariz.../cytokines.html

They are good for the immune systems, but too much inflammation will increase risk of almost all western diseases like hypertension, cancer and so on. My point is also that a big amount of the tryphophan will be converted to another substance than 5HTP. But tryphophan can be worth a try, don't think it's useless even if I belive more in 5HTP.

I think tryphophan go directly to the liver and there it's decided which substance it will be converted, but 5HTP go directly to the brain. But i no expert. Shall check up the research a bit when I have more time and return.

[ikaros]

but 5HTP go directly to the brain.

No, it goes everywhere where serotonin is used as a transmitter, e.g. into the heart also.