89 replies to this topic

[pycnogenol]

Besides my questions (see post #59) that I need answers to could someone please post a serrapeptase monograph?

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 04:37 PM.

[rwac]

Besides my questions (see post #59) that I need answers to could someone please post a serrapeptase monograph?

Pycnogenol,

What are you thinking of using serrapeptase for?
To increase the efficacy of antibiotics or ... ?

[FunkOdyssey]

So does taking serrapeptase initially increase pain? If it does indeed do this, what is the typical duration length of additional pain discomfort? Does it also mean the body is trying to heal itself?

I am not aware of serrapeptase commonly causing increased pain. It should reduce pain in most situations.

Someone said something about a herxheimer effect before -- serrapeptase alone should not cause any herxheimer effect.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I am not aware of serrapeptase commonly causing increased pain. It should reduce pain in most situations.

Purely anecdotal, but pain from both CTS in my right arm and Sciatica (specifically Piriformis Syndrome) returned at the same time after I added Serrapeptase a day earlier. Of course a few days before that I had stopped both Biotin and Benfotiamine based on posts here (well really on the fact I was out). I added them back in (at a smaller dose), and keep Serrapeptase, and all is better now. Could have been anything, but I am pretty set in my daily routines and these are pretty much the only changes... but I am getting old.

[Shepard]

I agree completely. Unless you're on a host of anabolic steroids, 6 days per week is at least 2 days too many for recovery and growth to take place.

Not necessarily, generalized statements like this don't take into account training variability. There are many situations where muscle soreness can be induced in a fairly-chronic manner without overreaching, and ways to train many sessions (10+) per week without overreaching without anabolic assistance.

[pycnogenol]

Besides my questions (see post #59) that I need answers to could someone please post a serrapeptase monograph?

Pycnogenol,

What are you thinking of using serrapeptase for? To increase the efficacy of antibiotics or ... ?

I recently started taking serrapeptase for chronic neuropathic & muscular pain (peroneal region, lower lumbar, etc.)

I don't take any antibiotics.

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 05:56 PM.

[pycnogenol]

So does taking serrapeptase initially increase pain? If it does indeed do this, what is the typical duration length of additional pain discomfort?
Does it also mean the body is trying to heal itself?

I am not aware of serrapeptase commonly causing increased pain. It should reduce pain in most situations.

Someone said something about a herxheimer effect before -- serrapeptase alone should not cause any herxheimer effect.

Hi Funk,

I asked Robert Redfern at his serrapeptase.info website about my increased pain from taking serrapeptase. . .

My questions: "The only thing I've noticed (so far) is that I have much more pain since taking the serrapeptase. Is this a typical response?"
"I definitely want to stick it out and continue taking serrapeptase but I want to know if this is a common side effect or not."

His answers: "This is not uncommon. You may also consider Curcumin to help with any nerve damage. Timing is impossible to predict."
"Take serrapeptase 80,000 IU in high doses 3 x 3 and reduce with improvement. Please come back to me with any feedback."


So I really don't know what to do about this. I've been taking it for 1 week or so. I already take Curcumin.

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 05:55 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

That guy seems a little nuts, considering the highest dose that has been studied in clinical trials is 20,000iu 3x daily and he is recommending 240,000iu 3x daily. Even at 20,000iu 3x daily some people develop respiratory infections because it has such potent mucolytic action.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 23 March 2009 - 05:51 PM.

[pycnogenol]

That guy seems a little nuts, considering the highest dose that has been studied in clinical trials is 20,000iu 3x daily and he is recommending 240,000iu 3x daily. Even at 20,000iu 3x daily some people develop respiratory infections because it has such potent mucolytic action.

Funk -- that's what I was thinking! Anyway, I've taken anywhere from 40,000 to 80,000 units per day. Today it was 40,000 units.

So Funk tell me -- what do you think is going on here with the added pain since taking the serrapeptase? I value your opinion

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 06:02 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

It isn't serrapeptase, but I did read that bromelain can increase inflammatory cytokine production, so perhaps something similar is going on.

Bromelain

This may be harmful as a treatment for Bird Flu. Boosts TNF-a so this may contribute to cytokine production. Overproduction of cytokines can contribute to pneumonia or ARDS which is a common cause of death in Bird Flu patients. Also has blood thinning properties which may contribute to problems associated with hemorrhagic symptoms. May help seasonal colds and flu.

http://content.nhion...m...s&mtyp=11–2 tablets (250–500mg), 3 times a day taken 30 minutes before meals. For anti-inflammatory benefits, use between meals, 1–3 tablets (250–500mg) up to 4 times a day.

Bromelain is used as an anti-inflammatory and analgesic agent in treating the symptoms of arthritis.

Bromelain can reportedly induce cytokine production in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells. Use has been reported to lead to the production of tumor necrosis factor-alpha, interleukin-1-beta, and interleukin-6 in a time- and dose-dependent manner.(27, 28) Bromelain has also been reported to remove T-cell CD4 molecules from lymphocytes and to affect T-cell activation(29) and to enhance macrophage production of INF-gamma-mediated nitric oxide and TNF-alpha.(30) In splenocyte cultures, T-cell receptor and anti-CD28 mediated T-cell proliferation was enhanced by bromelain, while IL-2 production was decreased. IL-2 production was also inhibited in highly purified CD4+ T-cells.(31)

The effects of these enzymes are complex, with some inflammatory and some anti-inflammatory mechanisms. Clearly the net impact is usually anti-inflammatory or they would not be used for that purpose, however in your particular situation, possibly temporarily, they might go the other way.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 23 March 2009 - 06:08 PM.

[pycnogenol]

I was diagnosed with painful post-herpetic neuralgia in 2004. Check out this article:

http://www.newswithv...ne/james174.htm

"Many infectious problems that trouble humans come to light when a dormant virus becomes activated after residing harmlessly for many years. A good example of this is herpes zoster skin infection
developing in patients who had recovered from an old chicken pox viral infection (varicella zoster) many years previously. Herpes viruses may lie dormant for many years, only to produce very painful
neuritis at a later date."

"...when a virus contacts a human cell, the external coating connects to the cell, and the virus becomes able to contact DNA. This connection to DNA permits the virus to reproduce in a rapid manner.
Proteolytic enzymes consume the exterior coating of a virus rendering the virus permanently inert. To recover from a viral infection requires that enough enzymes be taken to get ahead of the rapid
viral replication within cells..."

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 06:18 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

[pycnogenol]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

And that is precisely why I posted that link so I could get your take on that article.

[pycnogenol]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

I can't find his "M.D." credentials on DocBoard.org

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 March 2009 - 06:33 PM.

[zorba990]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

I can't find his "M.D." credentials on DocBoard.org

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

[Happy Gringo]

My 6 day a week training is as follows:

Mon - Heavy chest, shoulders, triceps
Tue - Light legs and abs
Wed - Heavy back and biceps
Thur - Light chest, shoulders, triceps
Fri - Heavy legs and abs
Sat - Light back and biceps

I read the studies where training body parts twice a week results in more hypertrophy and I have seen quite a bit of progress over the last few months using this system. Each body part has 3-4 days to recover. After about 8 weeks, I do 2 weeks of 3 days per week, full body, lighter weight to give my hormones and CNS time to recover.

Could nattokinase be used as a type of tonic? I have some coming from the states next week, and I am thinking about dosing 2 caps the first day, then a cap a day for 9 days. Basically, do 10 days every three months or so. Is there a reason that this wouldn't be effective?
Thanks.

[pycnogenol]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

I can't find his "M.D." credentials on DocBoard.org

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

As do I (vitamin E, DHA/EPA).

I was taking 3 capsules per day of the Doctor's Best brand for a very short period of time until I woke up with a nose bleed.

Now I'm taking only one capsule every other day at bedtime instead of the 3 caps daily. I'm taking it to see if it will dissolve a small
cyst that came up on an recent ultrasound. I got the OK to try it from my doctor. They're going to re-do the ultrasound in 9 months
to see if the serrapeptase helped at all. All I know is that taking 3 caps of serrapeptase really made my chronic pain much, much worse
so I backed off. Serrapeptase seems to help lower my blood glucose though.

Does anyone know why proteolytic enzymes make pain worse? At least in my case it makes pain worse. I thought it was supposed
to reduce pain not raise it.

Edited by pycnogenol, 25 March 2009 - 03:32 PM.

[zorba990]

From that link:

Systemic enzymes have a unique feature. Side effects do not occur with systemic enzymes. This means that raising the dosage to massive levels does not cause any problems unlike pharmaceutical drugs.

This is a dangerous lie. You will find plenty of side effects noted in clinical trials and massive doses could cause hemmoraging. I can't believe that was written by an M.D.

I can't find his "M.D." credentials on DocBoard.org

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

As do I (vitamin E, DHA/EPA).

I was taking 3 capsules per day of the Doctor's Best brand for a very short period of time until I woke up with a nose bleed.

Now I'm taking only one capsule every other day at bedtime instead of the 3 caps daily. I'm taking it to see if it will dissolve a small
cyst that came up on an recent ultrasound. I got the OK to try it from my doctor. They're going to re-do the ultrasound in 9 months
to see if the serrapeptase helped at all. All I know is that taking 3 caps of serrapeptase really made my chronic pain much, much worse
so I backed off. Serrapeptase seems to help lower my blood glucose though.

I'm dropping to one capsule per day until the end of the week and then we will see.

Seems like for pain, enzymes are the 'breaker down'. So if there is no 'building up' support then there could and
probably would be more pain. And, of course, there is always the issue that adhesions hurt when they break up and
dissolving scar tissue around nerves would probably result in increased pain. But it sounds like the effect was too
catabolic for you.

That being said, the number of positive testimonials on iHerb for this product is pretty impressive.
And having left negative comments for some products in the past, I have a good trust of iHerb's
reviews.

[FunkOdyssey]

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

I bought the same Doctor's Best product initially and I switched to a lower dosed 20,000iu per tablet product by MRM after researching it more thoroughly. The largest dose studied in humans is 20,000iu 3x daily. Some people develop respiratory infections at this dose as a result of excess mucolysis. I don't know where the idea that more is safe comes from because it is not supported by the literature.

For prevention of thrombosis, the best studied of the systemic enzymes is nattokinase, especially for that specific purpose of clot prevention on long-haul flights. I would use that instead.

[pycnogenol]

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

I bought the same Doctor's Best product initially and I switched to a lower dosed 20,000iu per tablet product by MRM after researching it more thoroughly. The largest dose studied in humans is 20,000iu 3x daily. Some people develop respiratory infections at this dose as a result of excess mucolysis. I don't know where the idea that more is safe comes from because it is not supported by the literature.

For prevention of thrombosis, the best studied of the systemic enzymes is nattokinase, especially for that specific purpose of clot prevention on long-haul flights. I would use that instead.

Funk! Good to see you in this thread. Anyway, is this the MRM product you're referring to?


http://www.iherb.com...?pid=11861&at=1

Edited by pycnogenol, 25 March 2009 - 03:49 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Yes that's the one.

[pycnogenol]

Yes that's the one.

Ok, cool. It looks like they make a 5 mg strength IF you take just 1 tablet per day:

http://www.iherb.com...s.aspx?pid=4504

Perhaps I should give this low-strength serrapeptase brand a try for my chronic neuropathhic pain and very small kidney cyst.

I really, really didn't dig the added pain after taking the Doctor's Best 40,000 IU serrapeptase. It was total hell-fire pain,
right in the exact part of my body where I have the most pain problems too. Scorching, unrelenting pain. And to think that Robert
Redfern at his serrapeptase website just casually tells me to up my amount is absolutely f-ing nuts. Good thing I didn't take
his advice.

Edited by pycnogenol, 25 March 2009 - 04:38 PM.

[zorba990]

You guys are giving me concern about using Serrapeptase even in the short term here.
Doctor's best brand is 40,000 units and it says 1-3 per day. I also take plenty of fish oil
and vitamin E. I have been taking 1 capsule 3 times a day, but maybe I will just take one
first thing in the morning. I want to avoid any clotting issues with this calf injury getting
on the airplane but I don't want to stroke out either? (That would be a bummer man).

I bought the same Doctor's Best product initially and I switched to a lower dosed 20,000iu per tablet product by MRM after researching it more thoroughly. The largest dose studied in humans is 20,000iu 3x daily. Some people develop respiratory infections at this dose as a result of excess mucolysis. I don't know where the idea that more is safe comes from because it is not supported by the literature.

For prevention of thrombosis, the best studied of the systemic enzymes is nattokinase, especially for that specific purpose of clot prevention on long-haul flights. I would use that instead.

Well I ended up with a big bruise on my leg that I didn't have before so I'm ditching the Serrapeptase.
This is the first purple bruise I've ever had and then there is a much larger yellow one. I guess I'll be taking
Rutin and or other bioflavanoids along with the vitamin C to try and help clear up the bruise. I once read that
you can hold a raw potato against a bruise to break it up but I've never tried it -- maybe now is a good time -
although I think I'm on leg-elevated bed rest for a little while.

[krillin]

Lumbrokinase articles

[fighter]

Is long term use of enzymes, especially pancreatin harmful to the body? Will it promote dependency and thus inhibit inherent secretion of the enzymes?

Here's one study but I don't know how exactly to interpret this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12492454

[Luminosity]

I know a lot about pancreatin. You take it on an empty stomach for inflammation. Nature's Plus is the most effective. Watch your dosages. Too much is bad.

I know a lot of about enzymes and inflammation. Yes, they go beyond your stomach, but you should generally take them on an empty stomach if that's what you want.

Searching for my posts on prancreatin and bromelain would be a good ide if you want to know more. If the search engine here doesn't work, try google.

[fighter]

I know a lot about pancreatin. You take it on an empty stomach for inflammation. Nature's Plus is the most effective. Watch your dosages. Too much is bad.

I know a lot of about enzymes and inflammation. Yes, they go beyond your stomach, but you should generally take them on an empty stomach if that's what you want.

Searching for my posts on prancreatin and bromelain would be a good ide if you want to know more. If the search engine here doesn't work, try google.

Hi, Luminosity, this is in reference to my case of generalized atrophy, I am still wasting away, now with my nasal cartilage affected alongside my tongue, lips, ears, etc, all wasting away.

I took Pancreatin for about 4 years non-stop and I'm afraid if I developed dependency that my body no longer produces pancreatic enzymes. The symptoms I have started the same time I stopped taking pancreatin, in late 2011. Are there any foods or supps that can stimulate / revive enzyme production or should i resume taking pancreatin? Do you think i might have developed dependency?

[blood]

I took Pancreatin for about 4 years non-stop and I'm afraid if I developed dependency that my body no longer produces pancreatic enzymes. The symptoms I have started the same time I stopped taking pancreatin, in late 2011. Are there any foods or supps that can stimulate / revive enzyme production or should i resume taking pancreatin? Do you think i might have developed dependency?

If you're body isn't producing sufficient pancreatic enzymes, you would perhaps be deficient in protein... maybe try taking a predigested protein (such as a quality hydrolysed whey, where the proteins have been broken down to dipeptides and tripeptides) and see if you notice an improvement in your health?

[Luminosity]

I was actually responding to the original poster in my post. I have noticed that when I took pancreatin as a digestive aid, it didn't help and I developed that worst gas when I stopped taking it. I think it did cause my digestion to atrophy. It got better later. It didn't take that long. I'm not sure it's 100% better but I've had so many digestive issues that it's hard to pinpoint the causes. I took pancreatin for years as an anti-inflammatory on an empty stomach. It was helpful. I had to cut it out fairly recently because it appears to make a particular joint issue worse now. You can overdo pancreatin. Haven't heard of a story like yours being attributable to pancreatin though I can't rule it out. Still waiting for the pictures and weight info to confirm your health problems. It would be interesting to look at your medical records as well.

[ironfistx]

Is long term use of enzymes, especially pancreatin harmful to the body? Will it promote dependency and thus inhibit inherent secretion of the enzymes?

Here's one study but I don't know how exactly to interpret this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12492454

This is interesting.  I actually emailed Mucos pharmacy (the company that makes Wobenzym) and asked if taking this could decrease self production and they said no.  I'm going to mail them this study.  And halt wobenzym.

Edited by ironfistx, 12 April 2021 - 04:14 AM.