410 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

That's a very interesting thread, as many others on this forum.

I'd like to ask a question.

I read a few posts ago someone saying "we don't know the long term effect of a keto diet".

But where are the studies showing the long-term effect of high-carbs diet? As far as i'm concern, I know none.

And if you look at the result of the Women's Health Initiative studies, it's really not so great. The women in the intervention group, ie low-sat, high vegetable and whole grain, had 3.1 more chance than baseline to get CVD. I guess it's a good place to say "DUH!"

I'm just wondering why high-carb diet are so much protected by everyone (well, not too much on this forum, thanks god).

From an outsider perspective it really looks like dogma.

I just wanted to point that this argument, ie "we don't know long term effect" isnt really relevant.

If you look at paper from Cordain or other on paleo, it seems pretty obvious that we have evolved for a long time on high animal diet and low plant diet. (65-35) in majority of case, at least.

Isn't that a long term evidence?

I wouldn't go that far. But we definitely haven't evolved to consume a diet so high in processed foods. That's for DAYUM sure. Some cultures probably ate more meat than other's, some probably thrived on fish and vegetables, etc. Absolute statements are rubbish.

[TheFountain]

Hi guys just wondering if any of you would be able to critique my 'dietery stack' if you like..

I have small knowledge of the ketogenic diet but have been reading quite a bit recently and I am also purchasing the recommended books by Edward, the OP.

I just need a bit of guidence really with regards to whether the foods below are going to fit the criteria.

I eat the following:

Pesto
Soya milk
Fish
Beef (organic)
Oats
Spiralina
Bee pollen
Algae
Cacao
Hemp seeds
Brazil nuts
Eggs (just the yolk)
Brocoli, sprouts, spinach (not too often)


I plan on eradicating fruits, although I love them. Avocado, humous have also been eradicated.

I plan on adding berries (what type? I dislike cherries - any ideas? Would goji be a good choice? Blueberries?), MCT oil, coconut oil.


What do you guys think? I suppose I am keen to experiment with this really. My books should be here soon and then I can get reading and have a better understanding of what this diet requires - but with my limited knowledge this is what I have come with so far.

I would aim to not eat carbs any higher than 15g/20g per day.. I copied that from Funk, sure that's what he said he was eating (well, in 2008, hope he doesn't mind lol) and that it was working for him. I am really keen on trying this. I am especially interested in the mood elevation which I have read is linked to increased levels of BHB in the brain.

Why did you 'eradicate' avocados again?

If you eat mainly the smaller variety the carbs in them should not be more than 12 grams per serving (a single avocado).

These should be good for post-induction. Currently I am at around 50-70 grams carbs a day, for maintenance purposes. Still alot better than most americans.

[Thorsten3]

Hi guys just wondering if any of you would be able to critique my 'dietery stack' if you like..

I have small knowledge of the ketogenic diet but have been reading quite a bit recently and I am also purchasing the recommended books by Edward, the OP.

I just need a bit of guidence really with regards to whether the foods below are going to fit the criteria.

I eat the following:

Pesto
Soya milk
Fish
Beef (organic)
Oats
Spiralina
Bee pollen
Algae
Cacao
Hemp seeds
Brazil nuts
Eggs (just the yolk)
Brocoli, sprouts, spinach (not too often)


I plan on eradicating fruits, although I love them. Avocado, humous have also been eradicated.

I plan on adding berries (what type? I dislike cherries - any ideas? Would goji be a good choice? Blueberries?), MCT oil, coconut oil.


What do you guys think? I suppose I am keen to experiment with this really. My books should be here soon and then I can get reading and have a better understanding of what this diet requires - but with my limited knowledge this is what I have come with so far.

I would aim to not eat carbs any higher than 15g/20g per day.. I copied that from Funk, sure that's what he said he was eating (well, in 2008, hope he doesn't mind lol) and that it was working for him. I am really keen on trying this. I am especially interested in the mood elevation which I have read is linked to increased levels of BHB in the brain.

Why did you 'eradicate' avocados again?

If you eat mainly the smaller variety the carbs in them should not be more than 12 grams per serving (a single avocado).

These should be good for post-induction. Currently I am at around 50-70 grams carbs a day, for maintenance purposes. Still alot better than most americans.

Oh really? I eat probably slightly below that amount already. I suppose I am a bit lost because I am unsure of what daily values I should be playing with. Perhaps I am experiencing ketosis to a certain extent. I've been eating this food for a long time it's not something that I'd have noticed in a recent sense.
I'm just exploring this diet by way of experimentation really. I seem best suited to a paleo diet but the ketogenic diet is one that I want to judge for its benefits before deciding to settle on paleo.

So with the aforementioned foods my questions stil remain really. I wasn't looking for judgement on why I wanted to try this, I was asking a question about whether these foods were ok.

Edited by Thorsten, 13 November 2010 - 06:43 AM.

[TheFountain]

Hi guys just wondering if any of you would be able to critique my 'dietery stack' if you like..

I have small knowledge of the ketogenic diet but have been reading quite a bit recently and I am also purchasing the recommended books by Edward, the OP.

I just need a bit of guidence really with regards to whether the foods below are going to fit the criteria.

I eat the following:

Pesto
Soya milk
Fish
Beef (organic)
Oats
Spiralina
Bee pollen
Algae
Cacao
Hemp seeds
Brazil nuts
Eggs (just the yolk)
Brocoli, sprouts, spinach (not too often)


I plan on eradicating fruits, although I love them. Avocado, humous have also been eradicated.

I plan on adding berries (what type? I dislike cherries - any ideas? Would goji be a good choice? Blueberries?), MCT oil, coconut oil.


What do you guys think? I suppose I am keen to experiment with this really. My books should be here soon and then I can get reading and have a better understanding of what this diet requires - but with my limited knowledge this is what I have come with so far.

I would aim to not eat carbs any higher than 15g/20g per day.. I copied that from Funk, sure that's what he said he was eating (well, in 2008, hope he doesn't mind lol) and that it was working for him. I am really keen on trying this. I am especially interested in the mood elevation which I have read is linked to increased levels of BHB in the brain.

Why did you 'eradicate' avocados again?

If you eat mainly the smaller variety the carbs in them should not be more than 12 grams per serving (a single avocado).

These should be good for post-induction. Currently I am at around 50-70 grams carbs a day, for maintenance purposes. Still alot better than most americans.

Oh really? I eat probably slightly below that amount already. I suppose I am a bit lost because I am unsure of what daily values I should be playing with. Perhaps I am experiencing ketosis to a certain extent. I've been eating this food for a long time it's not something that I'd have noticed in a recent sense.
I'm just exploring this diet by way of experimentation really. I seem best suited to a paleo diet but the ketogenic diet is one that I want to judge for its benefits before deciding to settle on paleo.

So with the aforementioned foods my questions stil remain really. I wasn't looking for judgement on why I wanted to try this, I was asking a question about whether these foods were ok.

If you are going for ketosis, which would require an induction level of carb intake, I would stick with I think sub 30 grams of carbs per day. Once you are satisfied with the level of fat loss you can up to a maintenance phase of about 60 or 70 grams of carbs a day. I guess for induction avocados would not be ideal, but post induction they are fine, one at a time.

[Thorsten3]

Thanks

Edited by Thorsten, 14 November 2010 - 08:29 AM.

[kismet]

All, trim your damn posts.

Edited by kismet, 13 November 2010 - 11:47 PM.

[Thorsten3]

All, trim your damn posts.

How's that last one, looks tidy eh?

[vato]

i'm on the ketogenic diet, tho my own version of it since 3 weeks.
it boils down to this.
i've never felt better in my life.

as to speak:
- VERY MUCH IMPROVED MOOD
- instant awake in the morning
- better sleep, more dreams and very vivid dreams!
- extreme enhanced medium-intensity workouts. (i was on the crosstrainer for 2 hours straight) first time in my life!
- more mental clarity
- more focus
- more mental stamina
- overal wellbeing with waves of euphoria here and there especially after eating my spinach/creambutter combo
- extreme mental clarity and euphoria when i 'fast for 24 hours' the whole day i feel very energetic and happy! ready for everything.
- last but not least, no signs of low blood sugar. seems to be perfectly balanced!!! no signs of hunger really!

wanted to share my experiences with you all because it is awesome!
and KETONES protect brain neurons! maybe that's why my mind feels so great!!!!

[Thorsten3]

i'm on the ketogenic diet, tho my own version of it since 3 weeks.
it boils down to this.
i've never felt better in my life.

as to speak:
- VERY MUCH IMPROVED MOOD
- instant awake in the morning
- better sleep, more dreams and very vivid dreams!
- extreme enhanced medium-intensity workouts. (i was on the crosstrainer for 2 hours straight) first time in my life!
- more mental clarity
- more focus
- more mental stamina
- overal wellbeing with waves of euphoria here and there especially after eating my spinach/creambutter combo
- extreme mental clarity and euphoria when i 'fast for 24 hours' the whole day i feel very energetic and happy! ready for everything.
- last but not least, no signs of low blood sugar. seems to be perfectly balanced!!! no signs of hunger really!

wanted to share my experiences with you all because it is awesome!
and KETONES protect brain neurons! maybe that's why my mind feels so great!!!!

Do you mind posting your dietary regimen?

How long have you noticed these improvements? Do they last, no dips?

I have also noticed these benefits but for me they seem to get overshadowed by an irritablity that arises. It's like a beast from within me is awoken. It's not that I am aggressive physically or anything like that but I am very hostile and confrontational towards people who think they can manipulate me and push me around. It's like some sort of fighter spirit that is born. It's probably pretty useful up to a certain point but for me it is too much and I end up binging on potatoes or something just to chill myself out.
I'd love to find a balance and I suppose that is the key. What I have been doing is eating pretty much under 10g of carbs per day which in hindsight is probably a bit extreme. The book I am currently reading recommends about no more than 10g of carbs per meal, so 30g or under per day in total.

I am currently thinking about re-introducing raw egg yolks, maybe 5 in the morning. Over the course of the day this should metabolize and help with cholestrol production especially serotonin synthesis. I have done this previously and had awesome results from the yolk. Seems to chill me out when eaten sufficiently and helps with my sleep.
I also need to work out how to get these carbs in to my diet. I am thinking of blueberries and rasberries. Both are tasty, high in anti-oxidants, decent brain food and not overly high in the carbs department.

So, for me I currently eat about 25g of protein per meal thrice daily (thinking of cutting this back to twice a day and re-considering the evening meal plan). I am eating an abundance of olives, nuts and seeds and occasional fruit. I need to check the carbohydrate rating of the olives as these could contain sufficient levels of carbs. I am clueless here and need to find out. As you can see I am still pretty much a novice with the ketogenic diet, I am happy to learn from others for sure.

Anyway it would be good to hear what you are eating dude? Could you list everything on a typical day for instance?

Also the euphoric brain state is in part down to BHB which is produced as part of ketosis. It's like GHB's little brother, but a more freindly one!!

Edited by Thorsten, 16 December 2010 - 07:06 PM.

[vato]

alrighttttttttttt!

so my diet regimen!

i don't really notice any agression like that! :D
my euphoric mood especially after doing a little workout puts me in excellent mood! and makes me very happy about the world i'm livin in.
but also a bit sad that, everyone is still taking this carbohydrates, while we are not really designed to eat like that!
just common sense is all you need actually, but most people lack this :P

ok so my typical diet look like this,
i'm not stressing about carbs really (as it is in small amounts in the nuts selection i made), i've been looking for studies about stuff that has a ketolytic effect and
those are actually: fructose, lactose, glucose. so you wanna avoid any food that has those as their main calories. that includes all fruits and starch foods obviously!

my focus is on these things really.

minerals!!
i use mainly nuts for these, so
- almonds; rich source of magnesium! that mineral is perfect for building strong bones and keep a nice chilled mood as well!
- pistachio; same as with almonds, just to mix it all up nice source of potassium too!
- pecan nuts; rich source of zinc!
- avocado! can't leave this one out for potassium!
- SPINACH! i try to mix this one up with cream-butter to ease taste and get my saturated fats!! (cream butter also has MTC-fats for ketone production!)

vitamins..
- spinach and avocado and nuts bring in enough!
- ketones! ketones are very strong antioxidants! so i actually get all the anti-oxidant benefits from within

NO FRUITS, especially CITRIC. citric-acid interferes with the ketogenesis process! so you want to avoid this anytime!! make sure you check everything you put in your mouth!
and yeah most fruits are high in fructose, when fructose enters the liver KETOGENESIS STOPS! so you want to avoid that!

MOST IMPORTANT! EGGGGS EGGS EGGS!!!
i eat at least 12 of em each day and prepare em this way, this is very important.
cook em exactly 5 minutes, this denaturizes the WHITE but not the YOLK! you want the yolk to stay semi-fluid-like.
eggs are most tastly and bring most nurtients like this! put a bit of salt and this is my favourite food of the day!

i try to get at least 125 grams of protein, this is the only macro i count. because my weight is 77 kg and you need a minimum of KG * 1.5 to maintain muscle.
saturated fats are GOOD!
monosaturated fats are GOOD!
i supply with omega-3 epa/dha with max. 4 caps per day, i don't want too much of it.

i drink cocoa! this is amazing stuff! like the kuna people do :D
and i take some powdered cayenne with water! capsaicin has many health and cancer fighting properties!
occasionally i supplement with st john's wort 300 mg caps. OR rhodiola rosea 100 mg MAX PER DAY, this is very important not to exceed this dose for rhodiola!
my last addition (which i got today ) is 'soy lecithin granules' this supplement is what i take before sleep now, it promotes axon and dendrite sprouting from neurons :D

one last note! avoid foods that contain LECTINS especially peanuts!


HAVE FUN EVERYONE!

Edited by vato, 16 December 2010 - 08:56 PM.

[katzenjammer]

NO FRUITS, especially CITRIC. citric-acid interferes with the ketogenesis process! so you want to avoid this anytime!! make sure you check everything you put in your mouth!
and yeah most fruits are high in fructose, when fructose enters the liver KETOGENESIS STOPS! so you want to avoid that!

What about wild blueberrie? - those are pretty low in sugars, right? And otherwise loaded with good stuff.

[vato]

NO FRUITS, especially CITRIC. citric-acid interferes with the ketogenesis process! so you want to avoid this anytime!! make sure you check everything you put in your mouth!
and yeah most fruits are high in fructose, when fructose enters the liver KETOGENESIS STOPS! so you want to avoid that!

What about wild blueberrie? - those are pretty low in sugars, right? And otherwise loaded with good stuff.

blueberries are fine for anti-oxidants, but you don't really have to focus on antioxidants.

ketones are the most powerful antioxidants you could ever wish for!

if you got time to check this out.. and have some background knowlegde of bio-medical science..
http://video.google....67554618436978#



wanted to add this:

There are seven traits allowing ketones to serve as neuroprotectors during brain damage:

they require only three steps to enter the Krebs cycle (footnote a) – compare with 9 steps obligatory for glucose;
they cause inhibition of glycolysis, thus decreasing free radical formation;
they increase production of ATP (footnote b);
they increase mitochondrial energy efficiency;
they increase antioxidant activity of glutathione peroxidase (footnote c);
they spare pyruvate from processing in the Krebs cycle

i count 6 , not sure why they say 7 tho

Edited by vato, 16 December 2010 - 09:03 PM.

[katzenjammer]

I could drop the blueberries any day - my problem would be dropping beer.

[Thorsten3]

NO FRUITS, especially CITRIC. citric-acid interferes with the ketogenesis process! so you want to avoid this anytime!! make sure you check everything you put in your mouth!
and yeah most fruits are high in fructose, when fructose enters the liver KETOGENESIS STOPS! so you want to avoid that!

What about wild blueberrie? - those are pretty low in sugars, right? And otherwise loaded with good stuff.

blueberries are fine for anti-oxidants, but you don't really have to focus on antioxidants.

ketones are the most powerful antioxidants you could ever wish for!

if you got time to check this out.. and have some background knowlegde of bio-medical science..
http://video.google....67554618436978#



wanted to add this:

There are seven traits allowing ketones to serve as neuroprotectors during brain damage:

they require only three steps to enter the Krebs cycle (footnote a) – compare with 9 steps obligatory for glucose;
they cause inhibition of glycolysis, thus decreasing free radical formation;
they increase production of ATP (footnote b);
they increase mitochondrial energy efficiency;
they increase antioxidant activity of glutathione peroxidase (footnote c);
they spare pyruvate from processing in the Krebs cycle

i count 6 , not sure why they say 7 tho

Thanks for the link, interesting video!!

Also thanks for sharing some of your dietary tips. Eggs definitely are an option. I just need to find something to eat them with and make them more appetising. For me they are a bit bland on their own. Obviously something like salmon would be a delicious sidekick but for those of us who can't afford to do this on a daily basis.. any ideas?

With the cocoa how much do you take there? I have to cycle this but it's the best 'nootropic' I have come across since starting my quest for better brain health two years ago. It has no detriment to my mental capabilities, eradicates depression, increases optimism and it is apparantly very healthy in its raw form. The effect does decrease if I take it daily though. I cycle 3 days on 4 days off. This seems to work for me. On the days off that's where I rely on my natural well being. Ketosis would be very helpful here! Hence my interest (health benefits included).

So i've had a rethink. I think fruit is the reason I am not experiencing the euphoria or ketone buzz (I have definitely experienced this so know what is like). I don't eat a lot of it, maybe 2 or 3 pieces as my main carbohydrate source per day... But that's as well as my oats that I eat each morning (plan to drop these as well).

So I am now thinking 3/4 eggs in the morning with avocado and soya milk smoothie (cacao added now and again)

Snacks include all the nuts you listed above. I especially like those that include things high in magnesium and vitamin E. Brazil nuts, cashews, pecan, walnuts, hazelnuts and peanuts. They are freaking expensive but hey they are worth it for their abundance of healthy fats. Also olives are a personal favourite of mine, gonna keep these. Love cheese as well, not the cheap rubbish (obviously a lot of saturated fat but close to zero carbs)

Lunch to be 3/4 eggs

Dinner to be organic beef, organic chicken or fish.. with broccoli, spinach or kale

Seems a bit one dimensional but hopefully as I get more into this diet and reap the benefits, I'll learn more about what foods I need to steer clear from and the ones that I can incorporate.
Have to say I am gutted about dropping some of my favourite foods (blueberries included) but it's the sacrifice you pay I suppose in this case.

Edited by Thorsten, 17 December 2010 - 06:21 PM.

[vato]

you can have a look here, and see what components in foods reduce the ketone bodies! very useful, so it is not really carbs that suppress it, proteins are better at long term ketone supression actually!
see for yourself down here
http://www.docstoc.c...-Patent-6620967

[Thorsten3]

you can have a look here, and see what components in foods reduce the ketone bodies! very useful, so it is not really carbs that suppress it, proteins are better at long term ketone supression actually!
see for yourself down here
http://www.docstoc.c...-Patent-6620967

It states at the beginning that excessive levels of ketone bodies in the body for long periods of time will result in ketoacidosis?

I have decided to follow your path with the foods that you've listed. What you have there is very balanced in terms of diet. Nuts, avocado and eggs are great.... The mistake I have been making is that I have been gorging on sausages, bacon and all kinds of other animal crap that my body just isn't used to in these larger proportions. I am forced to eat these quantities due to the pain my body goes through as it withdraws from carb intake. I am totally abandoning this becasue it makes me feel like crap.
I am now thinking about doing the eggs thing that you mention (4/5 per meal three times per day)... An abundnace of nuts (great source of protein as well by the way).. Avocados are a sure thing (why I don't eat this wonderful food already I don't know)... No citrus or fruits in general (this is where I will struggle as these always pick me up and energize me)... Maybe I should start taking a multivitamin... Where would you find something like vitamin C in a diet like this?? I mean ketones sound great for overall health and neuroprotection but there's surely a risk of becoming malnurished by this type of diet too?

[Zaul]

NO FRUITS, especially CITRIC. citric-acid interferes with the ketogenesis process! so you want to avoid this anytime!! make sure you check everything you put in your mouth!
and yeah most fruits are high in fructose, when fructose enters the liver KETOGENESIS STOPS! so you want to avoid that!

What about wild blueberrie? - those are pretty low in sugars, right? And otherwise loaded with good stuff.

blueberries are fine for anti-oxidants, but you don't really have to focus on antioxidants.

ketones are the most powerful antioxidants you could ever wish for!

if you got time to check this out.. and have some background knowlegde of bio-medical science..
http://video.google....67554618436978#



wanted to add this:

There are seven traits allowing ketones to serve as neuroprotectors during brain damage:

they require only three steps to enter the Krebs cycle (footnote a) – compare with 9 steps obligatory for glucose;
they cause inhibition of glycolysis, thus decreasing free radical formation;
they increase production of ATP (footnote b);
they increase mitochondrial energy efficiency;
they increase antioxidant activity of glutathione peroxidase (footnote c);
they spare pyruvate from processing in the Krebs cycle

i count 6 , not sure why they say 7 tho

Thanks for the link, interesting video!!

Also thanks for sharing some of your dietary tips. Eggs definitely are an option. I just need to find something to eat them with and make them more appetising. For me they are a bit bland on their own. Obviously something like salmon would be a delicious sidekick but for those of us who can't afford to do this on a daily basis.. any ideas?

With the cocoa how much do you take there? I have to cycle this but it's the best 'nootropic' I have come across since starting my quest for better brain health two years ago. It has no detriment to my mental capabilities, eradicates depression, increases optimism and it is apparantly very healthy in its raw form. The effect does decrease if I take it daily though. I cycle 3 days on 4 days off. This seems to work for me. On the days off that's where I rely on my natural well being. Ketosis would be very helpful here! Hence my interest (health benefits included).

So i've had a rethink. I think fruit is the reason I am not experiencing the euphoria or ketone buzz (I have definitely experienced this so know what is like). I don't eat a lot of it, maybe 2 or 3 pieces as my main carbohydrate source per day... But that's as well as my oats that I eat each morning (plan to drop these as well).

So I am now thinking 3/4 eggs in the morning with avocado and soya milk smoothie (cacao added now and again)

Snacks include all the nuts you listed above. I especially like those that include things high in magnesium and vitamin E. Brazil nuts, cashews, pecan, walnuts, hazelnuts and peanuts. They are freaking expensive but hey they are worth it for their abundance of healthy fats. Also olives are a personal favourite of mine, gonna keep these. Love cheese as well, not the cheap rubbish (obviously a lot of saturated fat but close to zero carbs)

Lunch to be 3/4 eggs

Dinner to be organic beef, organic chicken or fish.. with broccoli, spinach or kale

Seems a bit one dimensional but hopefully as I get more into this diet and reap the benefits, I'll learn more about what foods I need to steer clear from and the ones that I can incorporate.
Have to say I am gutted about dropping some of my favourite foods (blueberries included) but it's the sacrifice you pay I suppose in this case.

Careful with the Nuts

http://healthcorrela...t-them-and.html

[Mind]

I have been on a semi-keto/paleo diet for 3 or 4 years now. I can't remember the last time I bought bread at the store. Never tested for ketones but there are a few days here and there where I am under 30 g of carbs. Most of the time I am in the 50 to 100 g carbs per day mainly due to oatmeal in the morning and beer at night. The best part about this diet for me is how easy it is to stay fit/lean, very little fat (white adipose).

The only drawback is that it is hard to build muscle (if you are into body building/sculpting). I find I have to increase carbs if I want to considerably increase muscle mass. Of course, if you are going purely for longevity, then you won't be body-building, lol.

[Thorsten3]

[/quote]



Careful with the Nuts

http://healthcorrela...t-them-and.html
[/quote]

It would be helpful to know how much omega6 is in our foods, I suspect it is hidden everywhere due to stuff that is secretly hidden. Thanks for making me aware of this. This is all the more reason to supplement with sufficient omega3 on a consistent basis. What you are hoping for ultimately is some form of 'acceptable ratio' between these two.

I currently supplement 2g of fish oil (600mg DHA 400mg EPA) and I eat fish about 3 times per week. I eat free range eggs and organic chicken. I'm sure my ratio is far from perfect but it is probably a lot better than Joe Public's.

Edited by Thorsten, 21 December 2010 - 04:06 PM.

[Thorsten3]

I have been on a semi-keto/paleo diet for 3 or 4 years now. I can't remember the last time I bought bread at the store. Never tested for ketones but there are a few days here and there where I am under 30 g of carbs. Most of the time I am in the 50 to 100 g carbs per day mainly due to oatmeal in the morning and beer at night. The best part about this diet for me is how easy it is to stay fit/lean, very little fat (white adipose).

The only drawback is that it is hard to build muscle (if you are into body building/sculpting). I find I have to increase carbs if I want to considerably increase muscle mass. Of course, if you are going purely for longevity, then you won't be body-building, lol.

Do you mind sharing what you eat? (other than the oatmeal and beer)

[Thorsten3]

you can have a look here, and see what components in foods reduce the ketone bodies! very useful, so it is not really carbs that suppress it, proteins are better at long term ketone supression actually!
see for yourself down here
http://www.docstoc.c...-Patent-6620967

What I just questioned you about becoming malnurished due to vitamin C deficiency - don't worry about it!! I just bought some spinach at the supermarket and just remembered how high it is in this vitiman. As are brocoli and sprouts, both of which I eat a few times per week.

[Thorsten3]

rasberries are only 4g per 100g of carbs.. a bit less than blueberries and alot sweeter in my opinion. At the moment I eat 100g of each every day.

Goji berries have a crazy amount of carbs in them (25g per 100g).. I have had to drop these which is a shame as they are practically an edible multivitamin if you are to believe the hype. Something that would potentially be very useful for a diet such as this.

Bannans, citrus fruits have gone. I have kept apples but these are eaten dependant on how much carbs I have had already or plan to have. I aim to stay under 30g per day ideally.

[Mind]

I have been on a semi-keto/paleo diet for 3 or 4 years now. I can't remember the last time I bought bread at the store. Never tested for ketones but there are a few days here and there where I am under 30 g of carbs. Most of the time I am in the 50 to 100 g carbs per day mainly due to oatmeal in the morning and beer at night. The best part about this diet for me is how easy it is to stay fit/lean, very little fat (white adipose).

The only drawback is that it is hard to build muscle (if you are into body building/sculpting). I find I have to increase carbs if I want to considerably increase muscle mass. Of course, if you are going purely for longevity, then you won't be body-building, lol.

Do you mind sharing what you eat? (other than the oatmeal and beer)

For a typical work-day:

Waking up

Bowl of hot oatmeal (1/2 cup) with blueberries, coconut oil, protein powder (sometimes cranberries) OR lately a 500 calorie bar I make myself that has 1/3 cup oatmeal, some peanut butter (about a tablespoon), coconut oil, cocoa powder, protein powder, dried cranberries and blueberries.

Second meal

1 egg, 1 piece of venison jerky, 1/2 venison bratwurst, 1 slice cheese, a handful of broccoli florets, a handful of carrots OR cauliflower florets, small piece of fruit (pomegranate seeds, small orange, kiwi, small banana).

3rd meal

1 egg, 2 pieces venison jerky, 1/2 venison brat, 1 slice cheese, a handful of broccoli florets, a handful of carrots OR cauliflower florets, 1/3 cup of mixed nuts (almonds, peanuts, soy nuts, sunflower seeds)

4th meal

Some form of mixed green veggies with seasonings, shredded cheese, and olive oil. Usually broccoli, spinach, avocados, lettuce, brussel sprouts, onions, and many different things depending on what is growing in my garden PLUS some sort of meat based dish. Right now I am eating curry chicken with olive oil and cheddar cheese, but most of the time it is venison chili or venison manwich or venison meatballs.

5th meal, 1 beer

When I work out, mainly during the winter, I will slip in a 4.5 meal - protein shake - immediately after pumping iron.

The berries vary a bit depending on what I have growing or I can pick out in the woods. Blueberries and cranberries are the staples but I do get raspberries and blackberries in more quantities in the summer. I make blackberry wine from time-to-time.

Also, I drink green tea on work days and coffee on the weekend. I put powdered cocoa, half-n-half and cinnamon in the coffee. This time of year I put lemon slices in my tea (from my lemon tree). I take fish oil supp, vitamin D, and of course Vimmortal.

Edited by Mind, 21 December 2010 - 07:43 PM.

[Thorsten3]

I have been on a semi-keto/paleo diet for 3 or 4 years now. I can't remember the last time I bought bread at the store. Never tested for ketones but there are a few days here and there where I am under 30 g of carbs. Most of the time I am in the 50 to 100 g carbs per day mainly due to oatmeal in the morning and beer at night. The best part about this diet for me is how easy it is to stay fit/lean, very little fat (white adipose).

The only drawback is that it is hard to build muscle (if you are into body building/sculpting). I find I have to increase carbs if I want to considerably increase muscle mass. Of course, if you are going purely for longevity, then you won't be body-building, lol.

Do you mind sharing what you eat? (other than the oatmeal and beer)

For a typical work-day:

Waking up

Bowl of hot oatmeal (1/2 cup) with blueberries, coconut oil, protein powder (sometimes cranberries) OR lately a 500 calorie bar I make myself that has 1/3 cup oatmeal, some peanut butter (about a tablespoon), coconut oil, cocoa powder, protein powder, dried cranberries and blueberries.

Second meal

1 egg, 1 piece of venison jerky, 1/2 venison bratwurst, 1 slice cheese, a handful of broccoli florets, a handful of carrots OR cauliflower florets, small piece of fruit (pomegranate seeds, small orange, kiwi, small banana).

3rd meal

1 egg, 2 pieces venison jerky, 1/2 venison brat, 1 slice cheese, a handful of broccoli florets, a handful of carrots OR cauliflower florets, 1/3 cup of mixed nuts (almonds, peanuts, soy nuts, sunflower seeds)

4th meal

Some form of mixed green veggies with seasonings, shredded cheese, and olive oil. Usually broccoli, spinach, avocados, lettuce, brussel sprouts, onions, and many different things depending on what is growing in my garden PLUS some sort of meat based dish. Right now I am eating curry chicken with olive oil and cheddar cheese, but most of the time it is venison chili or venison manwich or venison meatballs.

5th meal, 1 beer

When I work out, mainly during the winter, I will slip in a 4.5 meal - protein shake - immediately after pumping iron.

The berries vary a bit depending on what I have growing or I can pick out in the woods. Blueberries and cranberries are the staples but I do get raspberries and blackberries in more quantities in the summer. I make blackberry wine from time-to-time.

Also, I drink green tea on work days and coffee on the weekend. I put powdered cocoa, half-n-half and cinnamon in the coffee. This time of year I put lemon slices in my tea (from my lemon tree). I take fish oil supp, vitamin D, and of course Vimmortal.

Thanks I have devised my own food diary, these things are so time consuming and take hours of time. It's not just food choices, but prices (staying within my budget) and going for quality among many other variables. I have finally come up with something at least (will cost me £340 each month). The key for me is not to become hungry as I know that's when I'll really struggle, although day 7 is going to be a day of fasting (I have never done this and I confess it will be something I am not neccessarily looking forward to, perhaps it won't be that bad). If the fasting thing doesn't work I will just consume 12 raw egg yolks over the course of the day as it's here where my money runs out.

Your regimen looks very well thought out and more advanced than mine but thanks for sharing. I may incorporate some of your choices.

[vato]

hey guys!

i'm doing awesome!!

about the nuts...

i think you are true on that one, i'm really watching my omega-6 to omega-3 ratio now.
so i am taking MAX 100 grams of nuts per day. because nuts are like omega-6 bombs.
and i'm balancing the ratio with ground flax-seeds!

and for the eggs, i noticed that they can spike the isoleucine and valine, both of which are ketone production suppressors.
even eggs can be high in omega6 to omega3 ratio. my cheap eggs used to have a ratio of 12:1 which i didnt like,
so now i'm buying omega3 eggs, they have 1060mg of DHA(omega3) and 1700mg omega6, per 100 grams! and a ratio of 3:2! which is in fact MUCH better!!

for the 'calories' i'm using more cream butter now!
and i bought 'micellar protein' to give me a steady flow of proteins to build muscle day long!
besides, it is slow released protein so it doesnt spike insulin or amino acids like whey protein does!! so i keep generating ketones!

i also did a unine test this morning and readings were perfect, no signs of spilled ketones, no acidic urine, and nice density! no signs of uric acid, no signs of protein wasting, just perfect readings.
i am now a full 3 weeks into ketosis heading for the 4th week and i've never felt more energetic and happy in my life before (on a steady state all day long!!!!!)


so basically my diet is now like this,

i cut back on the eggs, they're now 6 a day.
100 grams nuts.
3 times a day a tablespoon of flaxseeds
2 times a day lecithin granules
600 grams spinach.
80-100 grams micellar protein 4-5 scoops per day.
some beef liver
about 250 grams of cream butter (mixed with the spinach) i mix about 125 grams cream butter with 300 grams spinach twice a day so..
and ocassionally i eat a banana, a avocado or whatever to bump up potassium because i believe it is a very important mineral!

i'm also taking about 6 fish oil caps a day, and i suck em out because i dont want the glycerin from the capsule to interfere with the ketone process.
also 5000UI vitamin D supplement once in 2 days.
and olive oil, about 3 tablespoons per day

i also ordered coconut oil, see if it can give me a ketone boost in the early morning or right before workout, i'm really interested on its effects on workout capacity!

Edited by vato, 23 December 2010 - 10:25 AM.

[Thorsten3]

hey guys!

i'm doing awesome!!

about the nuts...

i think you are true on that one, i'm really watching my omega-6 to omega-3 ratio now.
so i am taking MAX 100 grams of nuts per day. because nuts are like omega-6 bombs.
and i'm balancing the ratio with ground flax-seeds!

and for the eggs, i noticed that they can spike the isoleucine and valine, both of which are ketone production suppressors.
even eggs can be high in omega6 to omega3 ratio. my cheap eggs used to have a ratio of 12:1 which i didnt like,
so now i'm buying omega3 eggs, they have 1060mg of DHA(omega3) and 1700mg omega6, per 100 grams! and a ratio of 3:2! which is in fact MUCH better!!

for the 'calories' i'm using more cream butter now!
and i bought 'micellar protein' to give me a steady flow of proteins to build muscle day long!
besides, it is slow released protein so it doesnt spike insulin or amino acids like whey protein does!! so i keep generating ketones!

i also did a unine test this morning and readings were perfect, no signs of spilled ketones, no acidic urine, and nice density! no signs of uric acid, no signs of protein wasting, just perfect readings.
i am now a full 3 weeks into ketosis heading for the 4th week and i've never felt more energetic and happy in my life before (on a steady state all day long!!!!!)


so basically my diet is now like this,

i cut back on the eggs, they're now 6 a day.
100 grams nuts.
3 times a day a tablespoon of flaxseeds
2 times a day lecithin granules
600 grams spinach.
80-100 grams micellar protein 4-5 scoops per day.
some beef liver
about 250 grams of cream butter (mixed with the spinach) i mix about 125 grams cream butter with 300 grams spinach twice a day so..
and ocassionally i eat a banana, a avocado or whatever to bump up potassium because i believe it is a very important mineral!

i'm also taking about 6 fish oil caps a day, and i suck em out because i dont want the glycerin from the capsule to interfere with the ketone process.
also 5000UI vitamin D supplement once in 2 days.
and olive oil, about 3 tablespoons per day

i also ordered coconut oil, see if it can give me a ketone boost in the early morning or right before workout, i'm really interested on its effects on workout capacity!

Wow still going well for you then. I am on the point of giving up to be honest, this is torture. It's been over a week now and all I feel is lethargy, awful cognition, weakness and I have lost more weight which quite frankly I could do with!! My body is putting up one hell of a fight and will not run on ketones until the cows come home. I envy those who can be in this state within a few days.
I am currently on under 20g of carbs per day, lots of healthy fats and I am trying to limit my protein. I may give this another few days but if it's still the same I see this as quite pointless unfortunately. People at work are already commenting on how miserable and snappy I am. I really miss my fruits.

Maybe I should just fast and do lots of running at the same time to force my body onto this fuel? Any ideas? Or I should just copy your dietary regimen exactly Vato?? That last option is probably worth a shot at least.

I have tried SJW and escitalopram for the irritablity but although they improve mood, I'm still all over the place mentally. I have experienced ketosis before (about 3.5 weeks ago) where after a period of selective eating lasting about 4 days I was all of a sudden in an extremely energetic state, the euphoria was indeed comparable to GHB (not quite the same, but the hypnotic effect was clearly there - things seemed more deep and meaningful - everything was positive - nothing could stress me)... Interestingly the day I achieved this state was a day where I ate nothing but a whole chicken, some nuts and olives. The next morning I woke up my mood had gone back to slightly above baseline. It was this experience that makes me prepared to endure the pain as I have never experienced energy like that before. I want to be in that state all the time and from what I read here that isn't an impossibility. The health benefits that come with it are also a big plus.

Ok Vato so I am going to pick apart your regimen and I am going to copy you. I hope you don't mind.
Also I hope you don't mind if I ask you some further questions here, you seem more educated about the ketogenic diet than me, although I am aware of a lot of the basics.

1. OK 6 eggs -- this is no problem, I can do this
2. 100g nuts -- per day?? That's fine, nuts I already have here
3. 1tbs (thrice daily) -- of flax seeds (the seeds or the oil?) , for omega3 content I take it?
4. Lecithin granuals.. What is the purpose of these?
5. Spinach -- Yep I got loads of this, I eat it raw. 100g no problem.
6. Micellar protein... Thanks for this tip.
7.Beef liver... very high in certain nutrients... How often do you eat this vato?
8. Cream butter... What the hell is this stuff?!?! lol .. I keep hearing it mentioned. I eat stilton cheese... Is it just a cheese?
9.Avocado... I have these.... Bananas... I hear some of them contain up to 25g in carbs... Surely it could risk kicking you out of ketosis no?

I have heard great things about coconut oil, I have some on the way. Olive oil I have recently added and it's a no brainer due to its monounsaturated content. Vitamin D I have always been weary of due to toxic concerns. Maybe I am being silly. You forgot to mention magnesium... That's like the god mineral of the body. It even regulates potassium to some extent.

So 80g-100g of the protein powder you are using, plus 6 eggs = a lot of protein. Is that ok on your system?

Also how long did it take you to go into ketosis?

The thing that is really bugging me at the moment is how to stop my body using glucose at the primary source. I even discovered recently that my body will burn protein to make glucose. Surely then it would be important to minimize protein and eat shit loads of fat (healthy ones) so the body is forced into ketosis. Maybe I am eating too much protein? But after seeing what your intake of protein is I am not so sure. I am confused, yes and not a happy camper

Edited by Thorsten, 23 December 2010 - 07:15 PM.

[Thorsten3]

and for the eggs, i noticed that they can spike the isoleucine and valine, both of which are ketone production suppressors.

Your protein powder plus the eggs would surely provide a huge amount of these amino acids?

[vato]

and for the eggs, i noticed that they can spike the isoleucine and valine, both of which are ketone production suppressors.

Your protein powder plus the eggs would surely provide a huge amount of these amino acids?

my protein powder has not yet arrived, so yeah i'm currently at a little lower protein intake...
but you have to make sure that you eat very clean, make sure there is nowhere citric acid to be found, because it is often added to foods or drinks!
anyway, sometimes i experience that keto-high feeling yeah, but it sometimes fades a bit when i eat food... i think it has something to do with that..
however i enter ketosis very quick when i don't eat or when i start running in the morning!
that cream butter is just cow's milk butter, i can buy it here easily i live in The Netherlands it's grass fed butter.
but i think i will be experiencing more ketosis when i get my coconut oil!

it is just that slow released proteins do in fact have valine and isoleucine and glutamic acid but, it is the dose that matters... so when it is slow release protein and you're not taking in more than 20 grams at a meal you will stay in heavy ketosis and experience the high :D
but the high gets ALWAYS more intense when your digestive tract is relaxed and all blood flows through brain!

[sixfootbrit]

Just wanted to check in. I went on a ultra-low carb (10-40g, per/day) eating plan in March 2010 at 218lbs. 3 months later I was 175lbs, having lost no lean mass overall (I am 6' tall). I did push-ups and pull-ups (8-6-4-2 pyramid, and 3-2-1) once a week, and took a few slow walks, maybe twice a week. I have never felt or looked better (in my wife's opinion), and I have had no problems maintaining this body composition/weight. I experienced the dizziness/lethargy etc. to begin with, then found out it was because of inadequate hydration and potassium/magnesium loss, so I supplemented. I followed the Eades plan (middle aged middle) to the letter. Now I am pushing to get my body fat into the single digits using some techniques I picked up from the new Tim Ferriss book, including 'shiver walks', PAGG, and the introduction of chia seeds into my shakes. I was a lifelong carb addict, and was very skeptical about anything 'Atkins' like, but after trying many other plans experimentally (low calorie, low fat, fructose diet, fruit diet, vegan etc), I realized that something was amiss. Studying the recent research behind evolutionary psychology/biology convinced me that there had to be another way. Discovering Eades gave me the clinical evidence to back it up. Et voila!

Edited by sixfootbrit, 24 December 2010 - 02:52 AM.

[Thorsten3]

and for the eggs, i noticed that they can spike the isoleucine and valine, both of which are ketone production suppressors.

Your protein powder plus the eggs would surely provide a huge amount of these amino acids?

my protein powder has not yet arrived, so yeah i'm currently at a little lower protein intake...
but you have to make sure that you eat very clean, make sure there is nowhere citric acid to be found, because it is often added to foods or drinks!
anyway, sometimes i experience that keto-high feeling yeah, but it sometimes fades a bit when i eat food... i think it has something to do with that..
however i enter ketosis very quick when i don't eat or when i start running in the morning!
that cream butter is just cow's milk butter, i can buy it here easily i live in The Netherlands it's grass fed butter.
but i think i will be experiencing more ketosis when i get my coconut oil!

it is just that slow released proteins do in fact have valine and isoleucine and glutamic acid but, it is the dose that matters... so when it is slow release protein and you're not taking in more than 20 grams at a meal you will stay in heavy ketosis and experience the high :D
but the high gets ALWAYS more intense when your digestive tract is relaxed and all blood flows through brain!

Yeah that makes sense. I went into ketosis last night actually for the second time ever. The fact I had not eaten for hours probably had something to do with this. Now this morning I am out of it again and I feel very hungry.
I have however decided to give this up. The practicality of trying to stay in this state all the time is just too painful. I am also becoming even more miserable by the lack of choice in my everyday food. Eating becomes a real chore. Before this diet I was probably eating in the region of 50/60g of carbs per day. My brain and body was doing just fine on that and I didn't forsee any future health complications based on that alone. It has however taught me not to go crazy on the fruits and to keep an eye on my carb intake. As long as it's around this area then there is no reason why I shouldn't live a long happy life this way. The ketogenic diet is just too hardcore and I admire those who can stick to it because it takes real discipline. I suppose I have now become another littered corpse in this thread. Another who dared to try but ultimately failed. As I said though I have leaned a great deal. I certainly appreciate how important it is to limit carbs and keep your insulin receptors sensitive. Good luck anyway *tucks into oatmeal with beaming smile*