178 replies to this topic

[E.T.]

Hello,

I have been using tons of supplements with no problems. I also jog 1.5 miles every other day with no joint problems. But, since I started taking 300 mg trans-resveratrol, I am getting "prickly" pains in my knees, and now in my elbow joint. Can anyone explain this? The resveratrol I use is a 50% standardized one from japanese knot weed, the cheapest one from Revgenetics.com. I just want to know if I should stop using it due to personal intolerance to the product, though the product itself may very well be just fine: it may just be my personal biology.

Thanks.

[kenj]

Hello,

I have been using tons of supplements with no problems. I also jog 1.5 miles every other day with no joint problems. But, since I started taking 300 mg trans-resveratrol, I am getting "prickly" pains in my knees, and now in my elbow joint. Can anyone explain this? The resveratrol I use is a 50% standardized one from japanese knot weed, the cheapest one from Revgenetics.com. I just want to know if I should stop using it due to personal intolerance to the product, though the product itself may very well be just fine: it may just be my personal biology.

Thanks.

I'm sorry I can't give an explanation. I developed tendonitis following a startup of gram dose resv, which went away when stopping it (also taking several grams of MSM might've speed up the recovery).

FWIW, 2 weeks ago I fell off the bike and injured a rib which hurts still. I just paused resv few days ago (swapping it for a good ol' painkiller!), since it might interfere with the healing process, -
ISTM that the lack of research on high dose resv in healthy humans do not really make for its inclusion in a 'my-it-can't-hurt-kitchen-sink' supplementation program, yet.
Definitely stop resv as long as you experience joint problems, - you can always try when you're completely fine again, perhaps a lower dose.

[E.T.]

Thanks: I'll lower the dosage to 100 mg instead of 300 mg. I'm 32 years old and don't think I should have joint issues, esp. since I live a very healhy lifestyle.

I'm sorry I can't give an explanation. I developed tendonitis following a startup of gram dose resv, which went away when stopping it (also taking several grams of MSM might've speed up the recovery).

FWIW, 2 weeks ago I fell off the bike and injured a rib which hurts still. I just paused resv few days ago (swapping it for a good ol' painkiller!), since it might interfere with the healing process, -
ISTM that the lack of research on high dose resv in healthy humans do not really make for its inclusion in a 'my-it-can't-hurt-kitchen-sink' supplementation program, yet.
Definitely stop resv as long as you experience joint problems, - you can always try when you're completely fine again, perhaps a lower dose.

[sUper GeNius]

Thanks: I'll lower the dosage to 100 mg instead of 300 mg. I'm 32 years old and don't think I should have joint issues, esp. since I live a very healhy lifestyle.

I'm sorry I can't give an explanation. I developed tendonitis following a startup of gram dose resv, which went away when stopping it (also taking several grams of MSM might've speed up the recovery).

FWIW, 2 weeks ago I fell off the bike and injured a rib which hurts still. I just paused resv few days ago (swapping it for a good ol' painkiller!), since it might interfere with the healing process, -
ISTM that the lack of research on high dose resv in healthy humans do not really make for its inclusion in a 'my-it-can't-hurt-kitchen-sink' supplementation program, yet.
Definitely stop resv as long as you experience joint problems, - you can always try when you're completely fine again, perhaps a lower dose.

Try a 98 or 99%. Then let us know.

[E.T.]

Try a 98 or 99%. Then let us know.

Do you think the 50% non-resveratrol part was causing the problem?

I also wonder if ethnicity plays a part in side-effects. My background is Asian-Indian, and I do know that many prescription substances have race-specific effects.

[Anthony_Loera]

I have not had that issue and have been taking it since 2006.

My wife is 41, 124lbs and is taking 1 gram (500mg morning, and 500mg at night). She also has no issues.
(and... trust me, she would definitely tell me if this was an issue she had... it is rare she would'nt tell me about an 'issue'...)


Maybe you should consider 99%, as it will definitely tell you if it's resveratrol or something else in the 50% powder.

thanks
Anthony Loera

[ajnast4r]

maybe dropping your estrogen down too much?

[E.T.]

maybe dropping your estrogen down too much?

I take 25 mg DHEA a day, 50 mg pregnenolone, and have just got off taking 50 mg soy isoflavones a day.

[E.T.]

Maybe you should consider 99%, as it will definitely tell you if it's resveratrol or something else in the 50% powder.

I think I will have to try something like that, or maybe just a lower dosage.

[niner]

Try a 98 or 99%. Then let us know.

Do you think the 50% non-resveratrol part was causing the problem?

I also wonder if ethnicity plays a part in side-effects. My background is Asian-Indian, and I do know that many prescription substances have race-specific effects.

It's possible that something in the "other 50%" is the problem. It also may be a fluke and not actually related to the resveratrol. Ethnicity is an interesting thought. I think in this case it probably isn't a problem, since as far as I know the polymorphisms in metabolic enzymes that are common with Asians involve P450s, but resveratrol is not metabolized by P450s. It is metabolized by conjugation with sulfate and/or glucuronidate. No ethnically distributed polymorphisms of these that I know of. (Which doesn't mean they don't exist...)

If you stop and it goes away, then restart and it comes back, you have a culprit. If you switch to 98+% and it goes away, you may or may not have a culprit, but you at least have a solution.

[E.T.]

I just bought the resveratrol offered by Walgreens: 40 mg trans-resveratrol per capsule, 60 in a bottle, for 10 dollars. They had a special: buy one, get one free, so I received 2 bottles, or 120 capsules, for 10 dollars. I will take two a day and see how I do. I think I read that I need to take both capsules together due to quick metabolism of low dosages.

[Zoolane]

disclaimer: none of the following is to be construed as medical advice: Most people do not take into account that imoden, the bulk of the 50% of inert ingredients in fractional resveratrol, is a diuretic. As such, you must take into account the percentage of nutrients that will NOT be absorbed by the intestines, but will be flushed. If you increase fractional resveratrol, you increase the laxative effect, and eliminate even more nutrients, and especially - in your case, MAGNESIUM.

Magnesium is a transporter mineral, responsible for about 300 chemicals / enzymes in the body. Also, small amounts of zinc are extremely important for encapsulating viruses and other pathogens, especially in the lungs. Magnesium will never be found deficient in a CBC because the body takes it out of bone when serum magnesium is low. Only a cell-destructive test such as a 'magnesium challenge test' will show the true status of magnesium in the body. Common symptoms of low magnesium are *elevated blood pressure *headaches *aches *PVCs *decreased immune system activity, etc. (Google: eby magnesium).

Magnesium, however, is only one of a whole spectrum of nutrients needed on a daily basis. It is a critical mistake to rely on one specific supplement such as resveratrol. It is our lifestyle and modern marvels that is killing us. It is important for a utility company to keep its water pipes clean, so it removes calcium and magnesium from water, leaving us all headed for heart attacks. It is the magnesium that is necessary to balance and remove excessive serum calcium and calcium radicals waiting to harden those arteries. We now mostly take showers, rather than bath in a stream or lake where minerals can be absorbed through the skin. The over use of antibacterial soaps leaves fungi living on dermis, because there's fewer bacteria to chase them away, and we don't have enough selenium in our bodies to kill them off.

Bottom line: If you take larger doses of resveratrol that also contains imoden, be sure to supplement with increased levels of ALL vitamins and minerals. Minerals should be supplemented in the Citrate form, rather than oxide. Oxide forms generally do not provide meaningful bioavailability.

Edited by Zoolane, 02 May 2008 - 07:57 PM.

[Zoolane]

disclaimer: none of the following is to be construed as medical advice: Most people do not take into account that imoden, the bulk of the 50% of inert ingredients in fractional resveratrol, is a diuretic. As such, you must take into account the percentage of nutrients that will NOT be absorbed by the intestines, but will be flushed.

To be more specific, the laxative effect is the result of a cyclic AMP-dependent chloride secretion in the intestines, as noted elsewhere.

[E.T.]

The Walgreens resveratrol did not make the pain go away. So, I've stopped taking resveratrol completely, except for the trace amount found in LEF Mix, and my knee pain has substantially decreased.

[E.T.]

Further joint deterioration seems to have been halted since I stopped using resveratrol, but I can't reverse the damage now. But, after a month, I just now tried 40 mg of resveratrol for just one day, and I had a severe reaction where every single joint in my body started to hurt: it is now finally going away one week later, but some new joints are now snapping and crackling for the first time ever. I believe resveratrol has permanantly ruined me. These are the risks when one uses himself as a guinea pig. And I still plan to experiment with other things as well.

[mikeinnaples]

That low of a doseage from the crap walgreens product wouldn't even be hardly bioavailable. Have you been to a doctor? What is happening to you doesnt seem quite right.

[Anthony_Loera]

I agree, go see a doctor. You might have something else that could be causing it such as:

* Joint injury
* Joint strain
* Joint sprain
* Previous joint injury
* Infections - many infections cause aching joints and aching muscles
o Viral infection
o Common cold
o Flu
o Bacterial infection
* Arthritis - see various types of arthritis and causes of arthritis
o Osteoarthritis
o Rheumatoid arthritis
o Juvenile rheumatoid arthritis
o Ankylosing spondylitis
o Rheumatism
o Reiter's syndrome
o Psoriatic arthritis
o Gonococcal arthritis (type of Infectious arthritis)
o Inflammatory bowel syndrome
* Gout
* Sickle cell disease
* Joint infection (see Joint symptoms)
* Tendinitis
* Bursitis
* Lyme disease
* Psoriasis
* SLE
* Polymyalgia rheumatica
* Referred joint pain
* Acute rheumatic fever
* Viral joint infection
* Bacterial joint infection
* Hemophilia
* Cancer
* Inflammatory bowel disease
* Hormonal disorder
* Nervous system disorder
* Syphilis
* See also causes of arthritis, stiff joint, or other joint symptoms
* Rheumatic fever
* Dislocated joint
* Fracture
* Fall
* Injury

Seriously, if you do have this, go see a doctor and find out instead of assuming it was something you ate.
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 19 May 2008 - 07:26 PM.

[JonesGuy]

Thanks for posting.
I wonder if there are any studies showing a decrease in spontaneous exercise in animals taking Res? Joint pain might be a good hypothesis, if so.

[maxwatt]

Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) seems the most likely candidate; the symptoms E.T. described are serious enough they should be checked out by a doctor. FWIW, Sirt1 activation has been reported to aggravate auto-immune diseases such as RA, at least in theory. Or the symptoms may have nothing to do with resveratrol. But if it is RA, the sooner it is properly treated, the better off you'll be.

I agree, go see a doctor. You might have something else that could be causing it [...]
A

Edited by Michael, 29 August 2009 - 06:57 PM.
Trim quote

[E.T.]

I am hiring the services of a physician and will plan a blood analysis. I will let you know of the results. I appreciate all your input and help.

I am very socially libertarianish-minded, so I only hold myself accountable for my problems: I don't blame supplement makers. I think every medical molecule should be over-the-counter, and the "war on drugs" should be ended.

[E.T.]

I have hired a physician. He asked me to give a sample of my blood to the clinic lab for analysis of things like gout, lupus, and so forth. He also asked me to have the x-ray department take some x-rays of my joints. I am now waiting for his secretary to call me back so he can discuss his analysis of the results. I believe he will find nothing because like most physicians, he is incompetent.

[E.T.]

My joint condition has gotten a lot worse: at age 32, now my elbows, wrists, sholders, ankles, and toes are burning, snapping, and crackling. My knees are now so bad that I need the assistance of my hands when I get up from a chair. I am doing nothing to make it worse: I've stopped jogging, but it's getting worse. To prevent a life of complete handicap status in an electric wheelchair, I am planning strategies for self-termination.

[E.T.]

I started using DHEA/Pregnenolone about 1 year ago. My joints were fine before this. I wonder if this problem is hormone related: maybe these hormones are metabolizing in detrimental ways.

[JoL]

I've been taking 300 mg of 98 % t-Res for three weeks now, and I've noticed increased joint pains as well, especially in the knees.

Edited by JoL, 17 June 2008 - 11:34 AM.

[Brainbox]

In case your issues are autoimmune-disorder related.....

[E.T.]

The secretary of the physician I hired called me today and said that the physician said that he found nothing "abnormal" in my blood and that the x-rays showed mild arthritis in my knees and shoulders, but nothing "abnormal" for someone at age 32. I told the secretary that is was not normal for all joints to suddenly deteriorate within 6 month period at age 32, and that the lupus-like pain and irritation clearly indicates that something is abnormal. She responded that I can make another appointment with the physician. But, I am not going to spend 20 dollars to hear the physician repeat to me that I am normal.

I asked the secretary to send a copy of the lab results and x-rays to me. She agreed.

[maxwatt]

The secretary of the physician I hired called me today and said that the physician said that he found nothing "abnormal" in my blood and that the x-rays showed mild arthritis in my knees and shoulders, but nothing "abnormal" for someone at age 32. I told the secretary that is was not normal for all joints to suddenly deteriorate within 6 month period at age 32, and that the lupus-like pain and irritation clearly indicates that something is abnormal. She responded that I can make another appointment with the physician. But, I am not going to spend 20 dollars to hear the physician repeat to me that I am normal.

I asked the secretary to send a copy of the lab results and x-rays to me. She agreed.

Sirtris did extensive human testing at doses of 2.5 grams and 5 grams,; arthritis was not fond to be a side effect.
If you have rheumatoid arthritis it is possible Sirt1 activation mediated by resveratrol aggravated it. However your doctor should have referred you to treatment if there were signs of rheumatoid arthritis. If you have osteoarthritis, it could be coincidence it flared up when you started taking low-dose resveratrol.

When I first developed osteoarthritis (in my big toe) my doctor sent me to a rheumatologist; the specialist did a workup, and told me I had arthritis, which I already knew, and that there was no cure, but that large doses of ibuprofen would alleviate the symptoms, which it did (up to 4x a day, 3 or 4 tablets of 200 mg.) He said if I developed sensitivity to ibuprofen, (upset stomach, ulcers) there were other NSAIDs and more powerful medications they could give me.

When I started experimenting with resveratrol, I found that under 800 mg had no more effect on my arthritis than NSAIDs like ibuprofen. Larger doses resulted in alleviation of symptoms in my hands and toes, except for the original big toe; however the swelling was visibly reduced in the joint, and I regained the ability to bend the toe which makes walking and even running a lot easier.

I currently take 2 to 3 grams of 98% resveratrol daily. I am almost pain free except where I've lost all cartilage in the toe, but there is no swelling and much less pain. I've posted before and after pictures of my toe before at Imminst. You can see the photos here: http://health.ph.gro...tos/browse/4414

or below, if this works:

BEFORE

AFTER:

edited for spelling

Attached Files

•  FootB4_May_15_2007.jpg   65.47KB   219 downloads
•  Foot_After_Aug_12_2007_0812071528.jpg   45.65KB   100 downloads

Edited by maxwatt, 21 June 2008 - 10:06 AM.

[niner]

The secretary of the physician I hired called me today and said that the physician said that he found nothing "abnormal" in my blood and that the x-rays showed mild arthritis in my knees and shoulders, but nothing "abnormal" for someone at age 32. I told the secretary that is was not normal for all joints to suddenly deteriorate within 6 month period at age 32, and that the lupus-like pain and irritation clearly indicates that something is abnormal. She responded that I can make another appointment with the physician. But, I am not going to spend 20 dollars to hear the physician repeat to me that I am normal.

I asked the secretary to send a copy of the lab results and x-rays to me. She agreed.

Wow, your doctor sounds like a wanker. As maxwatt said, he should have referred you to a rheumatologist. Your condition is certainly not normal. After re-reading this thread, it sounds like your symptoms are definitely associated with the resveratrol product you were taking, which is not to say that it had to be caused by resveratrol itself. My first suspicions would lie with the "other 50%" in the product. There have been some reports of tendinitis from resveratrol, but this is the first time I've heard of something like a systemic arthritis. This sounds a bit like reactive arthritis, where you get infected with a bacterium that presents an antigen that "looks like joint material", and the immune system attacks your joints along with the bugs. Even when the bugs are present at a very low level, the problem continues, but antibiotics usually take it out. Without antibiotics it can linger for a very long time. I'm not sure that your presentation is consistent with this hypothesis, though it might be. Another possibility would be that something in the product you used bound to a macromolecule in a way that made it antigenic, like the way the poison ivy toxin urushiol works. The first order of business is to figure out the cause, but this may be difficult, and the only option may be to try a few things and see what works. Since you are already considering suicide, I'd recommend being aggressive with it. Personally, I'd try a course of a broad spectrum antibiotic. Whatever is causing the inflammation, corticosteroids like prednisone would probably make you feel much better, but you can't take them forever without doing more harm than good. There are a lot of medical options to explore. Did you get worked up for Lyme disease? Keep us posted on how it goes. I hope that you get better.

[E.T.]

Thanks very much for the input. What is interesting is that I have no swelling anywhere, or none I can see. First step: I'm writing letters of complaint on the incompetence of this physician to every department possible. Next, I'll go over the lab results to see what blood indicators were checked for. Third, I'll shop around to see if any physician can do better.

[maxwatt]

The secretary of the physician I hired called me today and said that the physician said that he found nothing "abnormal" in my blood and that the x-rays showed mild arthritis in my knees and shoulders, but nothing "abnormal" for someone at age 32. I told the secretary that is was not normal for all joints to suddenly deteriorate within 6 month period at age 32, and that the lupus-like pain and irritation clearly indicates that something is abnormal. She responded that I can make another appointment with the physician. But, I am not going to spend 20 dollars to hear the physician repeat to me that I am normal.

I asked the secretary to send a copy of the lab results and x-rays to me. She agreed.

Wow, your doctor sounds like a wanker. As maxwatt said, he should have referred you to a rheumatologist. Your condition is certainly not normal. After re-reading this thread, it sounds like your symptoms are definitely associated with the resveratrol product you were taking, which is not to say that it had to be caused by resveratrol itself. My first suspicions would lie with the "other 50%" in the product. There have been some reports of tendinitis from resveratrol, but this is the first time I've heard of something like a systemic arthritis. This sounds a bit like reactive arthritis, where you get infected with a bacterium that presents an antigen that "looks like joint material", and the immune system attacks your joints along with the bugs. Even when the bugs are present at a very low level, the problem continues, but antibiotics usually take it out. Without antibiotics it can linger for a very long time. I'm not sure that your presentation is consistent with this hypothesis, though it might be. Another possibility would be that something in the product you used bound to a macromolecule in a way that made it antigenic, like the way the poison ivy toxin urushiol works. The first order of business is to figure out the cause, but this may be difficult, and the only option may be to try a few things and see what works. Since you are already considering suicide, I'd recommend being aggressive with it. Personally, I'd try a course of a broad spectrum antibiotic. Whatever is causing the inflammation, corticosteroids like prednisone would probably make you feel much better, but you can't take them forever without doing more harm than good. There are a lot of medical options to explore. Did you get worked up for Lyme disease? Keep us posted on how it goes. I hope that you get better.

The people who work for doctors are often not the best and brightest. Likely the doctor made a comment like "nothing unusual in the blood work, the amount of degenerative arthritis is mild and not unusual at his age. Ask him in for a follow-up." Then when you spoke to the receptionist, what you got is what you got. Tell the receptionist you want your doctor to call about the tests. A decent doctor will usually make patient calls at the end of the day as a matter of routine. If he won't talk to you see someone else who will; the lab tests are your property, and you are entitled to a copy or a faxed copy of them, and he'll send the tests to any new doctor you choose to see if you are not comfortable with him. Ask your friends for a recommendation for a doctor, and ask what he's like. Take a copy of your lab work with you when you see him, and as if your symptoms are consistent with reactive arthritis. Good luck.

Edited by maxwatt, 21 June 2008 - 10:29 AM.