178 replies to this topic

[E.T.]

Before I started taking all these supplements, I was 172 pounds. Now I am 145 and am very skinny. I wonder if my metabolism has become too high and is eating my cartilage away.

[sUper GeNius]

Before I started taking all these supplements, I was 172 pounds. Now I am 145 and am very skinny. I wonder if my metabolism has become too high and is eating my cartilage away.

Cartilage doesn't weigh much. it's probaably your bones.

[hmm]

Before I started taking all these supplements, I was 172 pounds. Now I am 145 and am very skinny. I wonder if my metabolism has become too high and is eating my cartilage away.

E.T., my heart goes out to you, and I really hope things start getting better for you (they clearly can't get much worse). When things do get better, I hope you will still be posting here, so everyone can know that you turned out OK and perhaps even reach a final conclusion/speculation as far as what exactly triggered all these miserable changes to your body, and why.

[niner]

Before I started taking all these supplements, I was 172 pounds. Now I am 145 and am very skinny. I wonder if my metabolism has become too high and is eating my cartilage away.

E.T., has there been any resolution in your joint symptoms? Did you get a chance to see a rheumatologist or even a different doctor? Have you tried any medications? If you are still eating as much as you ever did, but are losing weight, you might have an inflammatory condition in your intestines that's interfering with absorption of nutrients. Over what period of time has this weight loss occurred?

[E.T.]

E.T., my heart goes out to you, and I really hope things start getting better for you (they clearly can't get much worse). When things do get better, I hope you will still be posting here, so everyone can know that you turned out OK and perhaps even reach a final conclusion/speculation as far as what exactly triggered all these miserable changes to your body, and why.

Thanks. People are always being born and dying. It doesn't bother me. I never really thought the Singularity was going to save me anyway.

Cheers.

[E.T.]

E.T., has there been any resolution in your joint symptoms? Did you get a chance to see a rheumatologist or even a different doctor? Have you tried any medications? If you are still eating as much as you ever did, but are losing weight, you might have an inflammatory condition in your intestines that's interfering with absorption of nutrients. Over what period of time has this weight loss occurred?

I started loosing weight about 1.5 years ago when I started taking a few supplements. As I augmented my supplement regimen, my metabolism slowly got faster and faster. Now, I can eat plenty and I burn everything off very fast.

I now notice that when I take the LEF Mix, my joints hurt much more, and new areas start to hurt. When I stop taking the LEF Mix, the acceleration of joint pain spreading greatly reduces. For example, I stoped taking LEF Mix for two weeks, and no new areas of my joint was hurting. I then took LEF Mix the last few days, and for the first time ever, my hip joints started to hurt very badly where I could not walk: it was a burning sensation, combined with a bruising sensation. I stopped now, and the pain is subsiding in the hip area.

No, I have not hired another physician as yet. But I will soon post the blood test parameters. Thanks.

Edited by E.T., 05 July 2008 - 03:11 AM.

[niner]

E.T., has there been any resolution in your joint symptoms? Did you get a chance to see a rheumatologist or even a different doctor? Have you tried any medications? If you are still eating as much as you ever did, but are losing weight, you might have an inflammatory condition in your intestines that's interfering with absorption of nutrients. Over what period of time has this weight loss occurred?

I started loosing weight about 1.5 years ago when I started taking a few supplements. As I augmented my supplement regimen, my metabolism slowly got faster and faster. Now, I can eat plenty and I burn everything off very fast.

I now notice that when I take the LEF Mix, my joints hurt much more, and new areas start to hurt. When I stop taking the LEF Mix, the acceleration of joint pain spreading greatly reduces. For example, I stoped taking LEF Mix for two weeks, and no new areas of my joint was hurting. I then took LEF Mix the last few days, and for the first time ever, my hip joints started to hurt very badly where I could not walk: it was a burning sensation, combined with a bruising sensation. I stopped now, and the pain is subsiding in the hip area.

No, I have not hired another physician as yet. But I will soon post the blood test parameters. Thanks.

So it sounds like something in LEF Mix is causing a problem. Is there resveratrol in it? Given your situation, I think I would stop absolutely ALL supplements, and consume nothing but a healthy diet for a while. After getting better, you could slowly introduce supplements again. And I mean really slowly, like one new substance a month. You might have a food allergy. It might have been triggered or aggravated by something in a supplement, or maybe it's coincidental. I don't think that metabolism getting faster is very likely; I think it's more likely that you are not absorbing nutrients properly. Does your digestion feel entirely normal?

[E.T.]

So it sounds like something in LEF Mix is causing a problem. Is there resveratrol in it?

There is 200 ppm trans-resveratrol of 25 mg grape extract in the daily dosage. I don't know what this means: 200 mg resveratrol for every 1 million milligrams of grape seed extract? So that would be 5 micrograms of resveratrol a day?

Given your situation, I think I would stop absolutely ALL supplements

I will stop from tommorrow, and only eat healthy regular food.

Does your digestion feel entirely normal?

The only odd thing is that once I eat, I get hungry again in a few hours, even if I over-eat. But the blood test showed my glucose levels to be in the range mainstream medicine considers normal, so I'm not hypo-glycemic.

Edited by E.T., 06 July 2008 - 06:35 AM.

[E.T.]

From http://en.wikipedia..../Hypermetabolic

Hypermetabolism is the physiological state of increased rate of metabolic activity. The impact of the hypermetabolic state on patient nutritional requirements is often understated or overlooked. Hypermetabolism typically occurs after significant insult to the body. In hospitals and institutions, the most common causes are infections, sepsis, burns, multiple trauma, fever, long-bone fractures, hyperthyroidism, prolonged steroid therapy, surgery and bone marrow transplants.

During the acute phase, the liver redirects protein synthesis, up-regulating certain proteins and down-regulating others. Measuring the serum level of proteins that are up- and down-regulated during the acute phase can reveal extremely important information about the patient's nutritional state. The most important up-regulated protein is C-reactive protein, which can rapidly increase 20- to 1,000-fold during the acute phase.

Hypermetabolism may occur in the brain after traumatic brain injury.

The above text mentions that steroid use can cause hypermetabolism. I've been using DHEA and Pregnenolone for the last 1.5 years without any blood tests to measure ideal hormone levels. Maybe I have developed detrimental ratios and amounts of hormones, leading to cartilage catabolism.

[E.T.]

I have been taking LEF Super Booster which has high amounts of vitamin K1/K2. I wonder if this perhaps has been causing too much calcium deposits in my joints. As you may or may not know, the K vitamins carry calcium out of the blood and into bones.

[E.T.]

Here is my blood test results. If you click the image, it becomes larger in size so you can view it:

 Blood.jpg   141.64KB   251 downloads

[DaffyDuck]

Here is my blood test results. If you click the image, it becomes larger in size so you can view it:

 Blood.jpg   141.64KB   251 downloads

Where did you get this test done? I'd love to have all this info about myself.

[E.T.]

Where did you get this test done? I'd love to have all this info about myself.

It was just a standard blood test done at a private medical clininc in my city. My insurance covered most of the cost.

[tomnook]

Did you have any tests other than the cbc? If not, then I'd suggest a urinalysis (you could do this inexpensively at home with a 10-test reagent strip giving a good indication of abnormal levels), complete thyroid panel and a male hormone test - a salivary one is reasonably inexpensive. Additionally, the earlier postings with regard to magnesium and the possibility of Lyme disease both make sense to me. If there is any chance that you could have been bitten by a tick there are doctors in the US (assuming that you live there) with the reputation of being able to accurately decide whether you have a tick borne disease or not. The regular blood tests for Lyme are known for their inaccuracy. Your slightly elevated level of eosinophils could indicate an allergic reaction - possibly to one of your supplements or even a food intolerance - alternatively it may be caused by parasites or underactive adrenals (you can run a salivary test for this I believe). I understand that low levels of uric acid are rarely considered significant but when considered with other tests and symptoms could indicate, amongst other things, exposure to toxic compounds. You doctor would be able to suggest any other appropriate tests if he considered this to be a possibility. Having said that, your uric acid is probably insignificantly low - I just thought it worth mentioning.

Good luck and be sure to keep us posted when you discover anything new!

[E.T.]

sci.life-extension has some comments I found interesting regarding my problem: http://groups.google...349ff7de0d4c294#

[Anthony_Loera]

ET,

As always, when asked for evidence, the comments stop.

A

[E.T.]

ET,

As always, when asked for evidence, the comments stop.

A

I got the following response, though I don't know much about the science behind it:

Yep, exactly what happened to me too. Since it destroyed my knee
cartilage and damaged the digestive system I have done an extensive
research on the topic - see my previous posts and this forum:

[ . . . ]

In my case I tracked it to the deadly combination of FISH OIL + alpha-
lipoic acid + resveratrol. I am not sure about the molecular
mechanism in the case of alpha-lipoic acid but for the other 2 guys I
am quite sure now. Deadly when combined with strenuous exercise which
needs the Mead acid and possibly also some amounts of arachidonic acid
(AA) eicosanoids for proper tissue regeneration. All these "healthy"
supplements are calibrated for sedentary omega-6/AA overloaded folks
suffering from chronic inflammation not induced by the sports wear-and-
tear activities.


I have managed to stop further damage by trashing the supplements and
restricting dietary PUFAs but regrowing back the lost/broken cartilage
is quite difficult past 40. Hope the regenerative medicine will
progress fast and meanwhile there is the prolotherapy treatment. With
the latest hGH intraocular injections the results are quite impressive
- http://www.prolonews...rmones_golf.htm
Thanks to Monty/HansSelyeWasCorrect who put me on the right track in
learning the molecular mechanisms behind these health issues. Without
him, I might be already in a cryonic chamber at this moment ...

Edited by E.T., 13 August 2008 - 01:53 AM.

[E.T.]

By the way, I hope my intro. post is not giving Revgenetics a bad name, since I made reference to their product I used. The moderator is free to remove the reference. I'm sure their products are top-notch: I'm just trying to find out what happened to me.

[Anthony_Loera]

Taka said this about his issues:

"I was taking resveratrol supplement. However, I was supplementing also other things such as
Omega-3s and ALCAR at that time so resveratrol is just one of the suspects."

He also quoted B.S. advertising...

Another guys then says...
"This is a press release from Bill Sardi, and not dispassionate
science; it is rhetoric in the best Madison Avenue tradition to
promote his own product which is coincidently a low-dose resveratrol.
And relatively expensive as such products go. The "side effects" he
reports were posted by individuals on the imminst forums
(imminst.org); the posters later reported that resveratrol was not the
cause of their symptoms. Resveratrol is a mild copper chelator. So
is aspirin. Not necessarily a bad thing. "



Taka then says the following:
"Omega-3s act like NSAIDs, i.e. inhibiting the COX enzymes and thus the
signaling (inflammatory in nature) needed for proper connective tissue
regeneration after damage by e.g. exercise. NSAIDs will weaken
cartilage and ligaments, this is frequently discussed at the
Prolotherapy sites. I think not by a coincidence Omega-3 can also
damage the gut lining like other COX-1 inhibitors (IBS/leaky gut
followed the knee damage in my case and finally ended after I stopped
the fish and flax oils). BTW Japanese consume increased amounts of
oxidized fatty fish and also have higher stomach cancer rates (this
has been pointed out by Monty in the past). "

http://groups.google...a17becea53fc954


So, it's difficult for me... (who has taken 2 grams a day) to see this as an issue. The other item that isn't said, is that B.S. knows that there were doctors using 3-5 or more capsules for their patients.

I know this because these patients have told me that is what they were taking... Now they take 1 (500mg) capsule.

Wouldn't a doctor see this reaction if it were resveratrol?

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 August 2008 - 02:41 AM.

[E.T.]

I recently met a physician in person who is part of the anti-aging movement. He told me that the DHEA I have been taking could have reduced my cortisol levels. He said that cortisol plays a role in the repair of cartilage/joints, and that my joint damages may have been caused by inhibiting the repair mechanism. He said I should get a blood test to measure my cortisol levels, as well as other hormone levels.

[SearchHorizon]

I recently met a physician in person who is part of the anti-aging movement. He told me that the DHEA I have been taking could have reduced my cortisol levels. He said that cortisol plays a role in the repair of cartilage/joints, and that my joint damages may have been caused by inhibiting the repair mechanism. He said I should get a blood test to measure my cortisol levels, as well as other hormone levels.

From what I read (I don't remember it too well), resveratrol also lowers cortisol systemically.

I don't know if this means anything -- cortisol may have tissue specific effects.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 25 August 2008 - 06:19 PM.

[E.T.]

Here is my discussion regarding my problem on the LEF forum: http://forum.lef.org...=35&p=1&m=47492

By the way, if the moderators and members here are tired of this thread, I won't mind if it's locked up; otherwise, I am motivated to post in this thread until this disease finally takes my life, directly or "indirectly."

Now my sternum is crackling a lot: when I use my pectoral muscles, I have pain and crackling sounds in the sternum area.

My sholders are also snapping a lot louder now, with noticible pain.

Edited by E.T., 26 August 2008 - 06:33 AM.

[SearchHorizon]

I have begun to use CoQ10, on the idea that it should help with my elbow joint.

If CoQ10 helps, I will let you know.

[stephen_b]

Here is my discussion regarding my problem on the LEF forum: http://forum.lef.org...=35&p=1&m=47492

E.T., I noticed on that thread that someone claimed

Resv. chelates copper which leads to tendonitis in higher doses, many people feel it on the achilles tendon at amounts over 500 mg/daily.

This might be an important issue. Have you tried supplementing copper?

Stephen

[stephen_b]

Some studies to consider:

Prooxidant activity of resveratrol in the presence of copper ions (PMID 15913925)

Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound of plant origin, has been of much interest to researchers because of its anticancer and cardiovascular properties. Although antioxidant action of this compound is believed responsible for its reported properties, it has also been shown to exhibit prooxidant properties, especially in the presence of copper ions. Here we report the mutagenicity of resveratrol in plasmid DNA. Plasmid bluescript SK(+) DNA was treated with increasing concentrations of resveratrol in the presence and absence of copper ions, transformed into competent DH5alpha cells and sequenced. We looked for mutations caused by resveratrol treatment by comparing the sequences of treated plasmids versus control (untreated plasmid). The results show a decrease in the transformation efficiency of the plasmid after resveratrol treatment, and although all types of mutations were recorded, point mutations (deletions/substitutions) were found to be the predominant ones. Resveratrol alone resulted in deletion of mainly guanine bases. Since copper ions are known to be found in the nucleus, bound to guanine bases in chromatin, our results suggest mobilization of such endogenous copper by resveratrol resulting in prooxidant DNA cleavage at the site. Concentration of copper is reported to be elevated in various malignancies and the present studies might explain the reported anticancer activity of resveratrol in various cancer cell lines.

See also PMID 17157183(DNA damage induced by resveratrol and its synthetic analogues in the presence of Cu (II) ions: mechanism and structure-activity relationship.), which says

Kinetic analysis by UV-visible spectra demonstrates that the formation of ArOH-Cu (II) complexes, the stabilization of oxidative intermediate derived from ArOH and Cu (II)/Cu (I) redox cycles, might be responsible for the DNA damage.

This would fall into that category know as "over my head". I wonder if that last quote leaves open the possibility of a workaround for any DNA damage.

Stephen

[SearchHorizon]

Many anti-oxidants show pro-oxidant properties at higher concentrations. In some cases, anti-oxidant initially acts like a pro-oxidant, until a cell reacts to it. This complicates things a lot, and I am not sure if anyone can understand how "pro-oxidant" or "anti-oxidant" property associated with resveratrol actually affects one's body in vivo.

[rhc124]

LT, why in the heck are you taking LEF Mix? It has over 100mg of Niaciniamide which has been shown to be a very strong inhibitor of sirt1, the thing that resveratrol is supposed to activate. Next, you need to drop everything that you are taking and I mean now and I mean everything. I have experenced many of the things that you have and much worse. This past saturday I decided to drop everything I was taking. Af some point I will report a detailed report but for now I will just say that my symptoms are much better but not gone completely. I need to have some test done first. There is something going on with a certain subset of resveratol users and I do not know if it is due to resveratrol alone or an interactions with other supplements. But the only way you can figure this out is to stop everything and start again with only resveratrol after about a week.

I'll give a more detailed update at a later date.

[maxwatt]

LT, why in the heck are you taking LEF Mix? It has over 100mg of Niaciniamide which has been shown to be a very strong inhibitor of sirt1, the thing that resveratrol is supposed to activate. Next, you need to drop everything that you are taking and I mean now and I mean everything. I have experenced many of the things that you have and much worse. This past saturday I decided to drop everything I was taking. Af some point I will report a detailed report but for now I will just say that my symptoms are much better but not gone completely. I need to have some test done first. There is something going on with a certain subset of resveratol users and I do not know if it is due to resveratrol alone or an interactions with other supplements. But the only way you can figure this out is to stop everything and start again with only resveratrol after about a week.

I'll give a more detailed update at a later date.

Actually, last year, when I tried supplementing quercetin with resveratrol, my big toe and other arthritic joints began hurting worse than ever they had before resveratrol alone alleviated those symptoms. In addition, there were some pains in the muscle which I did not then attribute to anything in particularly, except to note they were not severe, but seemed to be growing worse until I stopped taking quercetin. When I stopped, but continued resveratrol, the joint pain and muscle aches disappeared, 90% gone in three days, 99% in a week.

I believe rhc124's advice is good; like quercetin, niacinamide has been shown to inhibit sirt1. There may be more to the interaction of these substances with resveratrol besides conflicting activity on sirt1.

[bixbyte]

Before I started taking all these supplements, I was 172 pounds. Now I am 145 and am very skinny. I wonder if my metabolism has become too high and is eating my cartilage away.

Dear ET,

My wife and I take 3.0+ grams of RES compounds from Vital Prime, Max Watt and Revgenetics per day.
Plus 31 other supplements including 500 mg Flush Free Niacin/day
We are doing very well, thank you.
My blood tests just came back very nice.

I am still in need of a new blood count test.

In my most humble opinion, sounds like you may need to seek medical attention for something not related to Resveratrol or supplements.


NOTE: The pencil marks are the blood test results, I have written from 1 year and 2 months ago.
Here is a copy of my newest blood tests results:

 test.jpg   43.02KB   117 downloads

[E.T.]

I have begun to use CoQ10, on the idea that it should help with my elbow joint.

If CoQ10 helps, I will let you know.

I was taking ubiquinone as part of my daily regimen, along with everything else. But it did not help.