30 replies to this topic

[Heliotrope]

We know our brains don't have an infinite amount of memory. The brain is limited in size and the maximum amount of memory the brain can hold is also limited, and the long-term memory capacity can be say 50 Gigabytes or even many terabytes, but it'd eventually run out.

Can the human brain run out of long-term memory? What happens if memory maxes out, for example, when one photographically incorporates ten thousand movies into his head or memorizes 100,000 books forwards and backwards down to the very last letter? Assume we of coursse have long enough life span or possibly near physical-immortality for the person to test the brain to the limit.

Do immortals have to forget things every few thousand years or so? Do the newest memories overwrite the oldest ones when our brain's say 100 Gigabye drive gets filled up? And we eventually forget our 4-year-old birthday party, the childhood, young adulthood etc etc, or at least forget all the not-so-important-but-we-wish-we-remembered things.

What if we can't upload our brains to computers and dramatically increase our memories, what if those are incapatiable/non-computational. Then we're stuck with our own heads with nowhere else to expand.

What happens if memory runs out? long-term memory maxes out? It's not a problem in a person who only lives to 100, but near-biological-immortality would require about .... infinity in memory capacity.

Edited by HYP86, 14 April 2008 - 12:05 AM.

[Heliotrope]

We know our brains don't have an infinite amount of memory. The brain is limited in size and the maximum amount of memory the brain can hold is also limited, and the long-term memory capacity can be say 50 Gigabytes or even many terabytes, but it'd eventually run out.

Can the human brain run out of long-term memory? What happens if memory maxes out, for example, when one photographically incorporates ten thousand movies into his head or memorizes 100,000 books forwards and backwards down to the very last letter? Assume we of coursse have long enough life span or possibly near physical-immortality for the person to test the brain to the limit.

Do immortals have to forget things every few thousand years or so? Do the newest memories overwrite the oldest ones when our brain's say 100 Gigabye drive gets filled up? And we eventually forget our 4-year-old birthday party, the childhood, young adulthood etc etc, or at least forget all the not-so-important-but-we-wish-we-remembered things.

What if we can't upload our brains to computers and dramatically increase our memories, what if those are incapatiable/non-computational. Then we're stuck with our own heads with nowhere else to expand. .

Looks like I can't edit my original post anymore.

I say the major problem with immortality is not environmental impact, resource drainage, population explosion, or any of that, but our innate/intrinsic limit of long-term memory. Nobody has pushed it to the limit before. If our long-term memory maxes out, nobody knows if our brain doesn't spontaneously destroy/erase some memories, or over-write the oldest memories with new memories, or the brain spontaneously combusts itself
What happens if memory runs out? long-term memory maxes out? It's not a problem in a person who only lives to 100, but near-biological-immortality would require about .... infinity in memory capacity.

Edited by HYP86, 14 April 2008 - 01:36 AM.

[Shepard]

We routinely forget old information that we don't use already. I don't see the problem.

What if we can't upload our brains to computers and dramatically increase our memories, what if those are incapatiable/non-computational.

Any particular reason you think so? I can't conceive of the notion that we would have full control over our biology and not technology like this to assist with it.

[Heliotrope]

Any particular reason you think so? I can't conceive of the notion that we would have full control over our biology and not technology like this to assist with it.

I personally think the brain upload or mind transfer won't be as successful as we'd think. Once uploaded, it will likely be a COPY of me, a facsimile, just like a clone of me is not me. The uploaded entity will declare to be me, remember even my 4th birthday party etc and have the same emotions for my family/friends. The REAL me will likely be destroyed in the process, or left standing by, now the result is two me's.

EVEN IF the REAL ME is uploaded and Augmented with almost unlimited memory capacity to 1,000,000,000.... Terabytes, vast knowledge, super-internet access etc, what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then? powerful hackers'll take over the world

Edited by HYP86, 14 April 2008 - 02:05 AM.

[Shepard]

EVEN IF the REAL ME is uploaded with unlimited memory capacity, unlimited knowledge, super-internet access etc, what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then?

If you've got unlimited knowledge, you shouldn't have trouble with that scenario.

[Heliotrope]

EVEN IF the REAL ME is uploaded with unlimited memory capacity, unlimited knowledge, super-internet access etc, what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then?

If you've got unlimited knowledge, you shouldn't have trouble with that scenario.

Sorry, just edited my original quote a few seconds ago, not "unlimited" knowledge but a vast amount of information/knowledge like having the whole internet at "fingertips" and many Terabytes of memory capacity. But it still takes time to sift through all the knowledge and learn them.

Having the knowledge is not the same thing as having the ability to defend myself against powerful hackers hoping to take control of the immortal, digital, virtual world. If that is not even the REAL me uploaded but copycat me, then all is moot point and worthless.

I think our chance still lies in pursuing biological immortality, but then we can't really escape the long-term memory capacity problem due to brain limitations

Edited by HYP86, 14 April 2008 - 02:16 AM.

[Ghostrider]

It's not a problem because you are continuously forgetting your past. Do you remember what you did 2 weeks and 17 hours ago? If it was 2 weeks ago, you probably could.

[forever freedom]

I remember a scene from the movie The Man From Earth when someone asks the main character of the movie who claims to be alive for 14000 years if he remembers what happened in year, say (i don't remember the exact year now), 1784, to which he answers: "well do you remember what happened 7 years and 4 months ago in your life?"



I think it summarizes pretty well what would happen. The same way we don't remember exactly what happened days or weeks ago, if we lived forever we wouldn't remember exactly what happened years ago, and then as we lived even more, we wouldn't remember exaclty what happened in each decade, and then century and so on. It still doesn't mean that we have less memory or that our brain is not working well. The same way we can'n remember many things that happened and only keep the memories that have had the most impact on us, so it will be if we lived forever.



I must observe, though, that i can't conceive the possibility that if we live for centuries we will not possibly come up with a way to enhance our brains/memories. So i think that by the time this issue could become a potential problem (after we lived for a few centuries), we will already have found a way to enhance the brain. It will only be the individual's choice to decide if he wants to have an enhanced brain (and along with it maybe there will be some risks, not a hacker but some others, at least in the beggining), or if he wants to keep his brain 100% as it has always been.

Edited by sam988, 14 April 2008 - 03:59 AM.

[Heliotrope]

I remember a scene from the movie The Man From Earth when someone asks the main character of the movie who claims to be alive for 14000 years if he remembers what happened in year, say (i don't remember the exact year now), 1784, to which he answers: "well do you remember what happened 7 years and 4 months ago in your life?"



I think it summarizes pretty well what would happen. The same way we don't remember exactly what happened days or weeks ago, if we lived forever we wouldn't remember exactly what happened years ago, and then as we lived even more, we wouldn't remember exaclty what happened in each decade, and then century and so on. It still doesn't mean that we have less memory or that our brain is not working well. The same way we can'n remember many things that happened and only keep the memories that have had the most impact on us, so it will be if we lived forever.



I must observe, though, that i can't conceive the possibility that if we live for centuries we will not possibly come up with a way to enhance our brains/memories. So i think that by the time this issue could become a potential problem (after we lived for a few centuries), we will already have found a way to enhance the brain. It will only be the individual's choice to decide if he wants to have an enhanced brain (and along with it maybe there will be some risks, not a hacker but some others, at least in the beggining), or if he wants to keep his brain 100% as it has always been.

i like your response, just a side ques, how did the 14,000 year old guy from The Man from Earth live that long? Why was he immortal? can't find the movie, but if there is a biological reason for it, that'd be interesting to hear. The guy was cross-examined by a biology professor right? he also claimed to be Jesus? did the movie give an explanation
if he can "evolve" from cro magnon man to a smart being and if there is a sci-fi explanation for it. . .

[vyntager]

Do immortals have to forget things every few thousand years or so? Do the newest memories overwrite the oldest ones when our brain's say 100 Gigabye drive gets filled up? And we eventually forget our 4-year-old birthday party, the childhood, young adulthood etc etc, or at least forget all the not-so-important-but-we-wish-we-remembered things.

We tend to remember things as a function of how strong the experience was, and how long ago. The more emotional load (be it positive or negative) there was on an event of your life, the more likely you'll be to remember it.

Eventually, you will forget more and more of course, and there will be new strong emotional experiences to be had. If you live long enough, you will probably forget almost everything and replace old memories with new ones. I think with time you'll end up becoming so different you won't be the same person anymore (i.e., you wouldn't even recognize your future self as being the same person as you are.).

But that future self will still be a human being, and will still be able to evolve, feel, remember.

Any particular reason you think so? I can't conceive of the notion that we would have full control over our biology and not technology like this to assist with it.

what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then? powerful hackers'll take over the world

That may happen to minds running on biological brains too. That you're running on meatware does not make you immune to cracking, well it does nowadays, but what about the future ?

[forever freedom]

i like your response, just a side ques, how did the 14,000 year old guy from The Man from Earth live that long? Why was he immortal? can't find the movie, but if there is a biological reason for it, that'd be interesting to hear. The guy was cross-examined by a biology professor right? he also claimed to be Jesus? did the movie give an explanation
if he can "evolve" from cro magnon man to a smart being and if there is a sci-fi explanation for it. . .

Sorry unfortunately the movie doesn't tell us how to become immortal


I'm not going to give any spoilers here, but if you want it; then send me a PM. Just a clue; don't look the movie looking for explanations.. that's not what the movie is about. It is about how a man who would have lived for 14000 years would see the world and his experiences.

Edited by sam988, 14 April 2008 - 05:11 PM.

[Luna]

Everyone stole what I wanted to say!
Ah well, but yes, you don't need to remember everything, no problem.

[Heliotrope]

Everyone stole what I wanted to say!
Ah well, but yes, you don't need to remember everything, no problem.

even if i don't need to remember EVERYTHING, after living for millions of years, do you think the brain wont be full ? Is brain designed to store millions of years worth of info?

[javan]

what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then? powerful hackers'll take over the world

How can you be sure that it's not already the case...;-)

Along with the functional memory storing I tend to believe that the brain assignes priorities to different memories. It must be ensured that you don't lose information about your personality, at least not so fast. Maybe there is something like swap memory (not short term memory) for low priority memories that will be replaced with time going on, but some general information remain (almost) unchanged on your harddisk. But no one can say for sure, and we simply do not understand the process well enough. For example, I wonder if information stored in the brain is interchangable, that is one can extract it and may implement it into another brain - imagine Matrix. I want to learn Kung-Fu the same way, but is it possible? Can the information be generalized? And if the memories are not mine, how would i feel about and deal with them? Furthermore, is longterm memory neccessary to maintain personality and identity at all? What about temporary amnesia - will i be the same person when i remember again?

Whatever the answers to these questions are, i just want to make sure that i am concious enough to recognize that I am alive and me and me enough to recognize that i am concious and alive and so on. So it's not a key issue atm, but interesting to think about.

[mentatpsi]

memory works through memory traces... i believe the higher amount of memory traces there are that lead to one piece of information the higher the probability of recollection. So think of it this way... as more information gets loaded, you're bound to crucial components within a trace leading to a piece of information... i believe you can consider reinforcement similar to building multiple traces... the mind naturally forgets pieces of information that aren't rehearsed for a certain amount of time... personality is much the same way... beliefs aren't hardwired, nor are ideals, they're inputted through examination of social norms and regulations as well as conflicting informations in order to make a somewhat coherent belief structure.

If you can define personality using any dynamic variable, i can assure you it can change as well, which is typically the case. So one case say that these variables [belief systems] are memory traces of a higher system. These memory traces effect the way we perceive and handle information which once again effect what information we rehearse and what we don't. Information will be forgotten however, it's what gets rehearsed effectively the most that will be preserved.

I'm sure you agree that as time progresses our attention shifts to multiple things, therefore so too does the time we spend rehearsing and reinforcing certain pieces of information, leaving only crucial bits in order to ensure the survival of the current deemed comfortable lifestyle.

Given enough time, these variables will change while still ensuring a singular stream of consciousness, allowing the perception of one persona rather than the "infinite" that exist before it. These changing variables affect memory traces and thereby allow for a "garbage collect", if you will, of the unnecessary ones.

Anyways, this is my "theory" of memory, and it seems to match up with reality, so i keep it .

[Heliotrope]

memory works through memory traces... i believe the higher amount of memory traces there are that lead to one piece of information the higher the probability of recollection. So think of it this way... as more information gets loaded, you're bound to crucial components within a trace leading to a piece of information... i believe you can consider reinforcement similar to building multiple traces... the mind naturally forgets pieces of information that aren't rehearsed for a certain amount of time... personality is much the same way... beliefs aren't hardwired, nor are ideals, they're inputted through examination of social norms and regulations as well as conflicting informations in order to make a somewhat coherent belief structure.

If you can define personality using any dynamic variable, i can assure you it can change as well, which is typically the case. So one case say that these variables [belief systems] are memory traces of a higher system. These memory traces effect the way we perceive and handle information which once again effect what information we rehearse and what we don't. Information will be forgotten however, it's what gets rehearsed effectively the most that will be preserved.

I'm sure you agree that as time progresses our attention shifts to multiple things, therefore so too does the time we spend rehearsing and reinforcing certain pieces of information, leaving only crucial bits in order to ensure the survival of the current deemed comfortable lifestyle.

Given enough time, these variables will change while still ensuring a singular stream of consciousness, allowing the perception of one persona rather than the "infinite" that exist before it. These changing variables affect memory traces and thereby allow for a "garbage collect", if you will, of the unnecessary ones.

Anyways, this is my "theory" of memory, and it seems to match up with reality, so i keep it .

i like your theory. for example, your own name probably has the most memory traces for a piece of memorized information. There are millions of trace connections to your first and last names , so as to ensure you'd never forget what you're called. however , if you don't use your social security number or a national ID # for a while, oh say not for years , I'm sure you'd forget it eventually

Edited by HYP86, 19 April 2008 - 01:06 PM.

[mikerossiter]

Well, the way I see it is..at the moment you use your biological brain for 100% of your memory /personality storage.

Imagine if you attached extra storage to this brain and lived 1000 years...suddenly the organic "you" only contains a small fraction of the total "you". If the organic brain dies you lose only a fraction of yourself. (and you lose more than that total fraction of yourself every year in terms of memories that are incorrectly stored/inaccessible due to nerve cell decay!). now imagine living to 100,000....For the first 70years you rely on organic brain storage but the rest of what makes up the individual you (all 99,930 years) is entirely stored/created outside the brain...the total self lost when the organic brain dies is only .001%.

So although COPYING your brain directly/instantly into a machine wouldn't be YOU...essentially doing it the long way over a period of time means the machine BECOMES the major part of what you are..and the organic brain tissue becomes a lesser part the longer you live.
Of course all this is moot if we have a soul thats stored in our original brain because OOPS! we just threw it in the trash.....

[mikerossiter]

Of course there is a scary side to living longer.

A child going from age 1year to 2years has DOUBLED its own lifespan. A child going from age 9 to 10 has added 10% to its lifespan...a man going from 99 to 100 has added only 1% to his lifespan...so as we age the days seem shorter and shorter and more tightly compressed.

This may be why we get the phenomenon where we think an event occurred recently but it occurred a decade or more ago...as we get older the days/months/years become a smaller percentage of our life lived so far.

Taking this to its logical conclusion at age 25, one single day is 1/9125th of a life.
At age 9125years, one year is 1/9125th of your life...i.e a year is the same total percentage of life at age 9125 as a day was at age 25!

Edited by mikerossiter, 28 April 2008 - 06:53 PM.

[forever freedom]

Of course there is a scary side to living longer.

A child going from age 1year to 2years has DOUBLED its own lifespan. A child going from age 9 to 10 has added 10% to its lifespan...a man going from 99 to 100 has added only 1% to his lifespan...so as we age the days seem shorter and shorter and more tightly compressed.

This may be why we get the phenomenon where we think an event occurred recently but it occurred a decade or more ago...as we get older the days/months/years become a smaller percentage of our life lived so far.

Taking this to its logical conclusion at age 25, one single day is 1/9125th of a life.
At age 9125years, one year is 1/9125th of your life...i.e a year is the same total percentage of life at age 9125 as a day was at age 25!

But this is more of a curiosity than a real problem. I mean, a year for a 10,000 y. o. person will still last as long (and i mean subjectively too) as a year for a 100 y.o.

I'm 20 now and i don't consider my last year to have been any shorter than when i was 10. If anything, it may even have been subjectively longer since i know so much more and i can learn more complex things and make better/more associations in my brain, which makes the experience look like it lasted longer. Sure you may counter argument the contrary, that because of the fact that i knew so little everything was new and therefore the experience should subjectively last longer.

But i disagree. I think that the more conscious we get (the more knowledge and experience we have), the better we can appreciate everything around us. Because after all, there will always be new things to learn, and the more we learn the bigger our potential to learn even more and more complex stuff.

[maestro949]

Ultimately all our sensory perceptions can be logged to long-term storage and indexed by datestamp and keyword. Eventually we'll be able to play them back at will. The nice thing about this is that we can offload memory storage from our biological brains and utilize it for more emotional processing, problem solving and engineering type tasks.

[luminous]

Here's another problem I never thought of:
Even if a birthday cake was big enough to hold 10,000 candles, how could you ever blow all of them out in a single breath?

As for the potential memory issues when we get into 5 figures, age-wise, I wonder if we can simply replace old, currently unused memories, overlaying them with new memories?

[Luna]

Everyone stole what I wanted to say!
Ah well, but yes, you don't need to remember everything, no problem.

even if i don't need to remember EVERYTHING, after living for millions of years, do you think the brain wont be full ? Is brain designed to store millions of years worth of info?

The brain always empties things up to write new things so no problem.
If it will be a problem, we'll just have to clear memories artificially.
I mean you must be joking if you think one day you will just stop remembering everything new.

[nanostuff]

Once uploaded, it will likely be a COPY of me, a facsimile, just like a clone of me is not me.

A clone of you is not you because it doesn't have the same brain. I think it's due time for everyone to drop the absurd "he will be me in all conceivable ways except he won't" position.

Unless you can explain how a being with a precise brain copy cannot be you despite physically replicating all the requirements to be you, the argument isn't going to work. On that note, don't bother trying to explain it because there is no explanation to be given. Your mind somewhere else is you, there's nothing more to be said.

EVEN IF the REAL ME is uploaded

Which of course it will be.

what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then? powerful hackers'll take over the world

There's a simple fool proof solution to the problem. Isolate mind access over the network. That's it. Hackers can't hack into something that's physically out of reach. Have sensory data be network accessible and that's all that is necessary. The worst thing they can then do is goatse you, but I'm sure we will become desensitized to it by the time uploading arrives.

[Heliotrope]

what if an even more powerful hacker Hacks into my system and inplants my computer with viruses, worms, trojan horses and making me a digital slave or consume my digital soul?? What then? powerful hackers'll take over the world

There's a simple fool proof solution to the problem. Isolate mind access over the network. That's it. Hackers can't hack into something that's physically out of reach. Have sensory data be network accessible and that's all that is necessary. The worst thing they can then do is goatse you, but I'm sure we will become desensitized to it by the time uploading arrives.

not completely understanding the last paragraph, due to my poor understanding of the terms, what does "goatse" mean ?

Edited by HYP86, 29 April 2008 - 01:18 AM.

[nanostuff]

what does "goatse" mean ?

You would be well advised to never try and find out. The human brain, for all it's wonders, does not have the ability to unsee and forget.

The real point was that interface with the mind-space could be left inaccessible over the network, and I suspect this is the only real solution because no contrived network security model would be adequate to protect it.

[JonesGuy]

Our current brain can certainly hold much, much more than we do. But even so, we only occassionaly bemoan our lost memories. We tend to assign priority to memories, and so we intentionally forget a lot of things. It's sadder when we forget something we intend to remember.

There will always be a stress on the amount of memory we have. We see this in our own heads. We see it on our computers. Now, memory is going to continue expanding at a geometric rate, but we're always going to feel like it's not enough.

[Wandering Jew]

There is actually more than enough memory in the human brain for hundreds or thousands of years. The old patriarchs in the bible like Adam, Noah, Methuselah etc all lived close to a thousand years. It's proves that even if you live a very very long time, your brain always has room or makes room (by forgeting) for new and important things. Don't worry about it now. If you do indeed become immortal, you can worry then. If technology advances that far, you'll probably be supplemented with a computer brain to input info in

[Wandering Jew]

There is actually more than enough memory in the human brain for hundreds or thousands of years. The old patriarchs in the bible like Adam, Noah, Methuselah etc all lived close to a thousand years. It's proves that even if you live a very very long time, your brain always has room or makes room (by forgeting) for new and important things. Don't worry about it now. If you do indeed become immortal, you can worry then. If technology advances that far, you'll probably be supplemented with a computer brain to input info in

[Wandering Jew]

There is actually more than enough memory in the human brain for hundreds or thousands of years. The old patriarchs in the bible like Adam, Noah, Methuselah etc all lived close to a thousand years. It's proves that even if you live a very very long time, your brain always has room or makes room (by forgeting) for new and important things. Don't worry about it now. If you do indeed become immortal, you can worry then. If technology advances that far, you'll probably be supplemented with a computer brain to input info in, though not sure if you'd want THAT.

For now , with the lifespan limited at 120 years or so, you'll use up a small percentage of your brain theoretically

Edited by Wandering Jew, 30 April 2008 - 03:15 AM.

[nanostuff]

The old patriarchs in the bible like Adam, Noah, Methuselah etc all lived close to a thousand years. It's proves that even if you live a very very long time, your brain always has room or makes room (by forgeting) for new and important things.

Fascinating. I could certainly use your wisdom in helping me split a large body of water with wishful thinking. If something like that is patentable we could make a killing in the fishing industry.