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Distant Mental Influence


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#1 mentatpsi

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 10:43 PM


I didn't know where to put this topic, but its implications can extend to the bioscience arena so i am presenting it here wondering what you guys think.

Do our thoughts influence the world?

Amazon: Distant Mental Influence: Its Contributions to Science, Healing, and Human Interactions (Studies in Consciousness) (Paperback)


Examples of this event can be seen with the placebo effect, that miraculous ability to control pain with the assumption that you're being treated. There's another example i remember watching on Nova about how skepticism can influence lab results when the skeptic is just watching the experiment. I'm not sure if the data showed a high significance level, but the result they said couldn't be attributed to chance.

I think the mind has great potential that requires exploration; that it has the capacity to alter itself if presented the will power and right direction. There's enough research right now to prove this, but there isn't enough support for its practice to make it a covered treatment in health care. There's a preference in western medicine to fund research on pharmaceutical drugs rather than discovering the true limits of the mind. It's a pity that it doesn't get the attention it deserves.

Edited by mysticpsi, 14 May 2008 - 07:00 AM.


#2 niner

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:12 AM

I think that the relationship between consciousness and matter/energy, or interactions between multiple consciousnesses is going to be one of those things that we finally figure out "some day". It will inevitably be part of a much deeper understanding of physics.

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#3 Luna

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:39 AM

Oh, again with the "New Age" crap :/
While you CAN give yourself the illusion you are being treated to ease your pain, you can also ease your pain without the illusion.

But "sending images" and "good thoughts" to someone over a distance to heal him? well, maybe, through an email.

Edited by Winterbreeze, 14 May 2008 - 07:44 AM.


#4 digfarenough

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:31 PM

There's another example i remember watching on Nova about how skepticism can influence lab results when the skeptic is just watching the experiment. I'm not sure if the data showed a high significance level, but the result they said couldn't be attributed to chance.


You may want to try to track that down, because it sounds like pure hogwash.

It is, of course, possible that an experiment achieved statistical significance, because that can happen whether or not the effect is "real" or not (see also http://en.wikipedia...._drawer_problem ). It is only when an effect is consistently reported that it should be considered real, especially for such an extraordinary claim.

#5 mentatpsi

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:46 PM

Oh, again with the "New Age" crap :/
While you CAN give yourself the illusion you are being treated to ease your pain, you can also ease your pain without the illusion.

But "sending images" and "good thoughts" to someone over a distance to heal him? well, maybe, through an email.


this is actually the main reason i wrote this topic here; for a more critical viewpoint :). I'm not really talking about distance healing, I'd prefer medical treatment to some person praying for me (though the second would be nice eh?). There are weird occurrences, however, of synchronicities that fit into this category. For all i know the phenomenon doesn't exist, but I've had some weird coincidences over my life that from a probability standpoint they could be deemed significant.

There has been a lot of research with Buddhist monks and Neuroscience regarding the mind's plasticity, which was essentially what i was trying to get at. For instance, here's two research articles:

Studies of Advanced Stages of Meditation in the Tibetan Buddhist and Vedic Traditions. I: A Comparison of General Changes

Buddha’s Brain: Neuroplasticity and Meditation


as i said before, I'd prefer health care treatments that incorporate the brain's ability to change rather than relaying on what can be defined as an involuntary addiction to a drug.

I think that the relationship between consciousness and matter/energy, or interactions between multiple consciousnesses is going to be one of those things that we finally figure out "some day". It will inevitably be part of a much deeper understanding of physics.


I completely agree with this, i think it would be immature to catalog all mind-matter relationships as impossible. It's another phenomenon in need of research.

There's another example i remember watching on Nova about how skepticism can influence lab results when the skeptic is just watching the experiment. I'm not sure if the data showed a high significance level, but the result they said couldn't be attributed to chance.


You may want to try to track that down, because it sounds like pure hogwash.

It is, of course, possible that an experiment achieved statistical significance, because that can happen whether or not the effect is "real" or not (see also http://en.wikipedia...._drawer_problem ). It is only when an effect is consistently reported that it should be considered real, especially for such an extraordinary claim.


I see your point, it's actually quite a common trick in order to get a product to sell.

Edited by mysticpsi, 14 May 2008 - 09:12 PM.


#6 mentatpsi

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 12:50 PM

so what do you guys think? Is this area full of crap and worthy of the bad scientific press it receives or is there certain areas of the world that we'll just have to wait to research to get a better understanding? Bare in mind the mental influence i speak of, if pertaining to reality, would pertain more to personal reality; the way we perceive it rather than the way it is actually structured, aside from the influences of neuroplasticity. Aside from that, there's also a persumed collective consciousness prospect, but that's less likely. I just wonder what the members' thoughts are on these matters.

Edited by mysticpsi, 03 June 2008 - 12:52 PM.


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#7 Luna

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:48 PM

It creates a paradox which kills the theory itself.
If the mind controls reality the for starters, what is it really, the "mind"?
If your mind controls reality, how did your mind come to be?
If your mind controls reality, what about their minds?
If their minds controls reality, does your mind really control reality? is it your reality, there reality?
How does the mind control reality?
What is reality?
How does the mind interact with the world if all the process it does, "so far as known to us" are inside the brain and not outside?

#8 mentatpsi

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 05:57 PM

It creates a paradox which kills the theory itself.
If the mind controls reality the for starters, what is it really, the "mind"?
If your mind controls reality, how did your mind come to be?
If your mind controls reality, what about their minds?
If their minds controls reality, does your mind really control reality? is it your reality, there reality?
How does the mind control reality?
What is reality?
How does the mind interact with the world if all the process it does, "so far as known to us" are inside the brain and not outside?


I don't see the paradox within such thoughts, but it's possible your perspective of what i'm saying is different than what i'm actually saying:

I'm sure we can agree that the brain is an interpretative organ, it interprets sensory information and that is what amounts to perception/reality. From what i remember from cognitive processes, a couple semesters ago, is that we don't even perceive the basic 3 dimensions of the world, instead we interpret different features of the world by using depth cues and various other pieces of information. What of facial recognition and various other "software" that analyzes the world; pattern recognition? There is absolute reality, which i have no absolute knowledge about and there is the reality that i experience daily using the interpretative "software" of my brain.

What of the dream world for instance, lucid dreaming is another instance of mind over reality; or rather personal reality. So personal reality can be considered a fact of life, which is why i believe we essentially experience life alone, though mirror neurons give us some connectivity to learn basic functioning, plus compassion and mental imagery can also make a good simulation. So going back into the dream world, i don't see why the prospects of combining dream world and reality is that much of a problem, i mean we already know that if you don't sleep for a couple days you eventually deteriorate reasoning and i believe hallucinations are also proper order for such an endeavor. This isn't control of reality... but rather control over personal reality. What of schizophrenia for instance, is their reality true because they experience it? Without the notion of personal reality one could say their reality is as true as yours. Besides as virtual reality using brain interface becomes more common wouldn't there eventually be a breakdown of reality anyways? Do we really have some sort of aspect of our brain that "knows" which reality is real, or does it adapt to the reality presented to it? You might think these questions silly, but i find them insightful and intriguing ;).

Edited by mysticpsi, 03 June 2008 - 08:59 PM.


#9 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 03 June 2008 - 11:17 PM

I'm sure the mind can influence it's own perceptions. However, it doesn't seem plausible that it could remotely influence the outside world. How could the firings of my neurons affect other people (unless, of course, they influence my outward behavior)? It still might be worth studying but I don't think the results would be surprising.

#10 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 02:39 AM

How could the firings of my neurons affect other people (unless, of course, they influence my outward behavior)?


As always Douglas Adams has the answer:

"...since every piece of matter in the Universe is in someway affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every Galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake."


from wikipedia

#11 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 04:56 AM

How could the firings of my neurons affect other people (unless, of course, they influence my outward behavior)?


As always Douglas Adams has the answer:

"...since every piece of matter in the Universe is in someway affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation - every Galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake."


from wikipedia


lol, I love Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. What the heck is fairy cake anyway?

Seriously though, your neurons might exert minor gravitational or electromagnatic forces but even if these were significant, there's no reason to assume they would bend reality toward your will.

#12 mentatpsi

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 03:31 PM

Seriously though, your neurons might exert minor gravitational or electromagnatic forces but even if these were significant, there's no reason to assume they would bend reality toward your will.


chaos theory would dictate that the flapping of a butterfly might make a tsunami ;). The point though, is that it would be chaotic, there's no reason to believe that thought affects something directly related to but outside of the bearer. There would only be two explanations as such; one a collective consciousness, the other a personal universe. Since the concept of a personal universe is paradoxical and biologically motivated, its possibility is but a dream to munch on while writing novels or fairy tales. Now a collective consciousness isn't that far out there, but it's still out there.

Either or, the potential discoveries that could come out of studying mind-matter interactions could be used to develop the human mind beyond current supposed limitations, it's as though we immaturely deemphasize learning how to use the mind. Imagine learning how to increase memory by increasing the lucidity of mental imagery, or increasing your perception of reality by taking the time to really look at the world rather than acting like mindless drones. It just seems like wasted potential.

#13 thughes

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 07:54 PM

/picky concern on

This is a little off topic for bioscience. I think our scientific forums should be science centered. Draws a better crowd. Weird beliefs or fringe science should likely be elsewhere, like an off topic forum.

This is based on my theory that the mission of this organization is to promote scientific life extension, and anything that may take away from that (eg. make this place look like a repository for fringe beliefs) aught to be carefully collected in clearly marked places ...

/picky concern off

My personal opinion:

Either or, the potential discoveries that could come out of studying mind-matter interactions could be used to develop the human mind beyond current supposed limitations,


Problem is, nothing solid seems to come out of mind matter interaction studies except statistical games (eg. PEAR). Given the dearth of solid evidence, it appears to me we'd make more progress supporting transhumanism, whether or not there is a small and barely measurable effect beyond what we currently understand. I mean, 10,000 years or so of civilization, we're certainly come much further in the technology department than in the distance viewing and levitating tables department so that seems to be the winning horse right now. Go with what works.

- Tracy

#14 mentatpsi

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:25 PM

Tracy, if you believe what i wrote to be weird beliefs then perhaps you've isolated it too much... i'll cut this post in two since it requires two distinct purposes... for the sake of reputation of the forum it's better we converse about something more grounded on empirical data rather than allowing our imaginations to go wild, i agree... my main intention as previously stated was to get the perspectives of those with a more critical eye. So thank you for yours :p.

Anyways, for more direct conversation :p. To be honest, i don't find the beliefs that weird if you isolate mainly control over personal reality rather than the belief that thoughts influence reality directly. So for the sake of relevance, would you find neurogenesis through mental activity and meditation, or perhaps the control over personal reality as is currently being studied each year by neurologists and buddhist monks to be more relevant? Honestly though, i understand where you're coming from, it's just that science overlooks things because of the followers. Science should have a moderating effect on everything it gets to investigate rather than allowing to go into something with a bias.

Edited by mysticpsi, 04 June 2008 - 10:29 PM.


#15 thughes

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 12:42 AM

So for the sake of relevance, would you find neurogenesis through mental activity and meditation, or perhaps the control over personal reality as is currently being studied each year by neurologists and buddhist monks to be more relevant?


Neurogenesis through mental activity is solidly grounded and empirical. You can measure it in a lab. You can have independent people repeat the experiment in other labs and get the same result.

Quantum physics is also empirical and repeatable, and thats beyond weird.

Its not a matter of weird, really. I should have dropped the "weird" and just said "fringe science". Of course then I have to define fringe science...

(quick fuzzy definition) I'd say if it doesn't either have solid empirical repeatable evidence, or a hypothesis that works within the current laws of physics and which is testable, then its currently fringe science. Thats a very rough definition, but you know what I mean I'm sure. PSI research, acupuncture, astrology, higher planes of consciousness, ghosts ... its all fringy. Might be true, might not, but given the evidence its all just speculation and fuzzy bunnies yet.

it's just that science overlooks things because of the followers.


The problem is, you can use the same sentence to excuse any belief (and, I'm not even sure its true really, I think sometimes we like to believe science overlooks things, because science doesn't say what we want to hear). Which is why I think such discussions belong in non scientific off topic forums, given the mission of the web site. But thats just my opinion, I is not a navigator.

- Tracy

#16 mentatpsi

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 01:41 AM

it's just that science overlooks things because of the followers.


The problem is, you can use the same sentence to excuse any belief (and, I'm not even sure its true really, I think sometimes we like to believe science overlooks things, because science doesn't say what we want to hear).


I should probably elaborate things to mean the potential of neurogenesis to treat mental impairments, the ability to rework perception, and the practical application of these technologies. They seem to be underrated mainly due to the new age element that is transmitted alongside with it. You may be right and the under publicity is simply because it doesn't exist.

Neurofeedback, for example, or the direct conditioning of the brain to attain a better functioning by getting real-time feedback, seems to me to be under publicized and studied. Now what bothers me is simple, I want to know if this stuff works without the bias, i don't want funding for research to be cut simply because of stigma, i want more accurate studies, so that they can say if high sample double-blind studies conclude anything or if it was all along a load of rubbish. If the practitioners themselves are flaky, get a team of qualified scientists to study it. If it's proven wrong then i'll be able to figure out my options more accurately rather than relying on false hope that's attributed to the new age movement. But all treatment options deserve that level of respect to, without bias, be investigated for ability to help quality of life. No company should intervene with science in the interest of its own success, and that often time bothers me because that's the reality.

Which is why I think such discussions belong in non scientific off topic forums, given the mission of the web site. But thats just my opinion, I is not a navigator.


I understand where you're coming from, I have been trying to move the topic into less murky waters because i didn't want this conversation to be non scientific, the beauty of science is that it can be the voice of reason for those who use it properly. Regardless of your position, your opinion makes a lot of sense so it's still as important, i'll try to cut down on maneuvering this conversation to areas where all that exists is speculation.

#17 thughes

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 07:40 PM

I should probably elaborate things to mean the potential of neurogenesis to treat mental impairments, the ability to rework perception, and the practical application of these technologies.


There's a fascinating layman's book on neuroplasticity I recently read. "The Brain that Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. Interesting stuff.

My perception is that its becoming steadily more recognized that the brain is fairly plastic, and our patterns of thought can have a physical effect (if they couldn't, behavioural therapy would not work as good as drugs). I wasn't aware of a new age stigma in this line of research...

- Tracy

#18 bryce126

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 07:58 PM

there's a very interesting book on intention and effect of the mind on physical processes and physical objects.

Lynne MacTaggart's book The Field, as well as Gary Schwartz' Living Energy Universe.

They discuss the physics idea of the zero point field, which is a field of infinite size that contains all thoughts that ever are or were, and it is postulated this is where our consciousness lies. These books go on further to discuss scientific experiments of intention on healing, effect of humans on random events, remote viewing, etc, and the possibility of these events occurring by chance.

Don't bash it right away just because its not conventional fact, we all know the most radical thinkers/ideas were heretic at first. Just keep an open mind and enjoy a good read, it gave me a different perspective on things, and I'd be excited if it leads somewhere

#19 mentatpsi

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 10:12 PM

I should probably elaborate things to mean the potential of neurogenesis to treat mental impairments, the ability to rework perception, and the practical application of these technologies.


There's a fascinating layman's book on neuroplasticity I recently read. "The Brain that Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. Interesting stuff.

My perception is that its becoming steadily more recognized that the brain is fairly plastic, and our patterns of thought can have a physical effect (if they couldn't, behavioural therapy would not work as good as drugs). I wasn't aware of a new age stigma in this line of research...

- Tracy


You know, i believe that book is in my line up, has been on my amazon wishlist right now for the summer :p.

The stigma was awhile ago, it's gotten better. When neurofeedback first started out they had held a meeting, among the attendees were hippies (they were hippies, I don't mean it as a negative term) and scientists. The scientists were probably interested in the prospects of neurogenesis and the ability to in a sense reshape the brain's impairments, while the hippies were interested with the reports of alpha-training on the brain; they saw it as a tool towards spiritual enlightenment for its ability to provide help in meditation towards the same "brainwaves" as gurus and monks. These days neurofeedback is seperated into two different trainings from what i remember, one is the alpha training, the other SMR. As you can imagine the more conservative use SMR, while the more liberal use Alpha. Now to get to become a practitioner in biofeedback you really only need a bachelors from what i recall, and if you think about it this machine is a money maker. The therapy looks more high-tech and people love that. There are still reports of weird occurrences using alpha training, remote viewing for instance. Of course these are anecdotes rather than actual studies.

Anyways that's isolated to neurofeedback, the area is still rather flaky from what i heard but neurofeedback had been my introduction to neurogenesis and there's a lot of information being transmitted that people are overlooking this area of science as a medical possibility. Of course, i suppose you can say it's speculation. A good book to read is "Symphony in the Brain" by Jim Robbins. The book does have a high ratio of anecdotes to scientific studies, aside from a couple during the time of neurofeedback's early start and goes to state the lack of funding as a reason why this field never took off. They do however show how eplipetic seizures has had success using neurofeedback, while one of the methods of treating this is by removing the corpus callosum, any person who has any knowledge of neurology should see how stupid that is. They even demonstrated an A-B-A type experiment, treatment - bring back condition - treatment again; how the process took away, then returned, and then brought back the seizures (yes unethical and maybe grammatically sketchy lol).

Anyways, the way people have introduced neurogenesis it always reports how little people believed in this phenomenon until recently, especially when you read the studies done on Buddhists monks. I hope it has been getting better.

Edit: increased clarity

Edited by mysticpsi, 06 June 2008 - 02:27 AM.


#20 mentatpsi

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 10:41 PM

there's a very interesting book on intention and effect of the mind on physical processes and physical objects.

Lynne MacTaggart's book The Field, as well as Gary Schwartz' Living Energy Universe.

They discuss the physics idea of the zero point field, which is a field of infinite size that contains all thoughts that ever are or were, and it is postulated this is where our consciousness lies. These books go on further to discuss scientific experiments of intention on healing, effect of humans on random events, remote viewing, etc, and the possibility of these events occurring by chance.

Don't bash it right away just because its not conventional fact, we all know the most radical thinkers/ideas were heretic at first. Just keep an open mind and enjoy a good read, it gave me a different perspective on things, and I'd be excited if it leads somewhere


I'll look it up, sounds like an interesting read.

There was also a program on Nova not too long... i had to do a major search to find what it was called, but it's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, I really have no knowledge of Quantum Physics whatsoever, aside from small readings within "The Elegant Universe" and a little from a chemistry class, so i can't speak as someone knowledgeable. Anyways Orch-OR is:

a theory of consciousness, which is the joint work of theoretical physicist Sir Roger Penrose and anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff. Whereas some theories assume consciousness emerges from the brain, and among these some assume that mind emerges from complex computation at the level of synapses among brain neurons, Orch OR involves a specific form of quantum computation which underlies these neuronal synaptic activities. Quantum computation is proposed to occur in structures inside the brain’s neurons called microtubules



#21 freethinker

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 11:22 PM

Examining psychokinesis: the interaction of human intention with random number generators--a meta-analysis.
Bösch H, Steinkamp F, Boller E.

Department of Evaluation Research in Complementary Medicine, University Hospital Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany. holger.boesch@uniklinik-freiburg.de

Séance-room and other large-scale psychokinetic phenomena have fascinated humankind for decades. Experimental research has reduced these phenomena to attempts to influence (a) the fall of dice and, later, (b) the output of random number generators (RNGs). The meta-analysis combined 380 studies that assessed whether RNG output correlated with human intention and found a significant but very small overall effect size. The study effect sizes were strongly and inversely related to sample size and were extremely heterogeneous. A Monte Carlo simulation revealed that the small effect size, the relation between sample size and effect size, and the extreme effect size heterogeneity found could in principle be a result of publication bias. Copyright © 2006 APA, all rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16822162

On blowing trumpets to the tulips: to prove or not to prove the null hypothesis--comment on Bösch, Steinkamp, and Boller (2006).
Wilson DB, Shadish WR.

Department of Public and International Affairs, George Mason University, Manassas, VA 20110, USA. dwilsonb@gmu.edu

The H. Bösch, F. Steinkamp, and E. Boller meta-analysis reaches mixed and cautious conclusions about the possibility of psychokinesis. The authors argue that, for both methodological and philosophical reasons, it is nearly impossible to draw any conclusions from this body of research. The authors do not agree that any significant effect at all, no matter how small, is fundamentally important (Bösch et al., 2006, p. 517), and they suggest that psychokinesis researchers focus either on producing larger effects or on specifying the conditions under which they would be willing to accept the null hypothesis. Copyright © 2006 APA, all rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm...._RVAbstractPlus

Reexamining psychokinesis: comment on Bösch, Steinkamp, and Boller (2006).
Radin D, Nelson R, Dobyns Y, Houtkooper J.

Consciousness Research Laboratory, Institute of Noetic Sciences, Petaluma, CA 94952, USA. deanradin@noetic.org

H. Bösch, F. Steinkamp, and E. Boller's review of the evidence for psychokinesis confirms many of the authors' earlier findings. The authors agree with Bösch et al. that existing studies provide statistical evidence for psychokinesis, that the evidence is generally of high methodological quality, and that effect sizes are distributed heterogeneously. Bösch et al. postulated the heterogeneity is attributable to selective reporting and thus that psychokinesis is "not proven." However, Bösch et al. assumed that effect size is entirely independent of sample size. For these experiments, this assumption is incorrect; it also guarantees heterogeneity. The authors maintain that selective reporting is an implausible explanation for the observed data and hence that these studies provide evidence for a genuine psychokinetic effect. Copyright © 2006 APA, all rights reserved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm...._RVAbstractPlus

#22 cyborgdreamer

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 01:35 AM

Examining psychokinesis: the interaction of human intention with random number generators--a meta-analysis.
Bösch H, Steinkamp F, Boller E.

Department of Evaluation Research in Complementary Medicine, University Hospital Freiburg, Freiburg, Germany. holger.boesch@uniklinik-freiburg.de

Séance-room and other large-scale psychokinetic phenomena have fascinated humankind for decades. Experimental research has reduced these phenomena to attempts to influence (a) the fall of dice and, later, (b) the output of random number generators (RNGs). The meta-analysis combined 380 studies that assessed whether RNG output correlated with human intention and found a significant but very small overall effect size. The study effect sizes were strongly and inversely related to sample size and were extremely heterogeneous. A Monte Carlo simulation revealed that the small effect size, the relation between sample size and effect size, and the extreme effect size heterogeneity found could in principle be a result of publication bias. Copyright © 2006 APA, all rights reserved.


Random number generators are completely deterministic. The computer takes a seed value (such as the computer's microsecond count) and runs it through a mathematical formula. If the mind can influence that, we should also be able to make a computer output 2+2 = 5.

#23 mentatpsi

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 02:16 AM

Random number generators are completely deterministic. The computer takes a seed value (such as the computer's microsecond count) and runs it through a mathematical formula. If the mind can influence that, we should also be able to make a computer output 2+2 = 5.


You could make a program to determine that 2 + 2 = 5 and send that as an output if you wanted :p.
I think everything is deterministic though, but ya you're 100% right.

Thanks for the research articles jean david. Should have expected that people would manipulate studies to make the null hypothesis less rejecting lol.

Edited by mysticpsi, 06 June 2008 - 02:20 AM.


#24 lunarsolarpower

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 03:22 AM

I think everything is deterministic though, but ya you're 100% right.


Even quantum uncertainty? If it is, it certainly doesn't appear to draw its determination from THIS universe.

#25 treonsverdery

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 05:16 AM

I believe there is higher form like magic

a ducks feathers are iridescent as the result of a quantum phenomenon

thus engineerable phenomna are possible at the organism

believe n build

#26 mentatpsi

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 05:29 AM

I think everything is deterministic though, but ya you're 100% right.


Even quantum uncertainty? If it is, it certainly doesn't appear to draw its determination from THIS universe.


Yep, I'm still old fashioned. Perhaps one day we'll determine the laws behind it to accurately predict it, if it's not deterministic however, then someone has to explain how the observable universe is. Though, i thought a lot of the issue was that the tools used to investigate quantum mechanics (aside from mathematical deduction) interfere with the measurements. Damn i need to read more, or at least take a class in it or something -.-

#27 platypus

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Posted 06 June 2008 - 09:13 AM

Yep, I'm still old fashioned. Perhaps one day we'll determine the laws behind it to accurately predict it, if it's not deterministic however, then someone has to explain how the observable universe is.

The observable universe is not deterministic at the quantum level.

#28 mentatpsi

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 06:54 AM

Yep, I'm still old fashioned. Perhaps one day we'll determine the laws behind it to accurately predict it, if it's not deterministic however, then someone has to explain how the observable universe is.

The observable universe is not deterministic at the quantum level.


so how is the observable universe deterministic at the macro level? If you can predict the motion of celestial bodies using Kepler's laws, or the fall of a projectile given the initial conditions, then it means the universe we observe is deterministic... however if at the quantum level it isn't, and no laws could ever predict it then it's chaotic, and if that's true I can't figure why a portion of the universe would be deterministic yet the other operate at a chaotic fashion. Anyways, I've never taken a quantum mechanics course as stated earlier, so what i'm saying is what makes sense to me... could be wrong, could be right... but too early to decide eh?

#29 mentatpsi

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 07:06 AM

going back, I'm trying to say that though neurogenesis is true, a science without practical uses seems rather incomplete. I think Neurofeedback was one of the first practical application of neurogenesis and it was treated with disrespect for reasons that seem more seated in politics and bureaucracy than true science. If it doesn't work that's fine, but given the magnitude of the studies, i think it only right to embrace the possibilities.

Perhaps one day we'll see yearly fMRI checkups along with more detailed forms of brain analyzing to determine if your activity is supporting proper brain growth and the effects of various mental activities upon targeted areas of the brain.

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#30 Luna

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:52 PM

neurogenesis is already known to happen when you practice stuff such as meditation, this is nothing special as this is practicing a muscle like any other.
But not because of someone else is waving good thoughts at you.

In here, when you feel like jumping and saying "It is true!" on some half worked-science, you better show some data and not just scream wolf.

Edited by Winterbreeze, 07 June 2008 - 12:53 PM.





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