67 replies to this topic

[John2009]

Some info I found on coQ10 and life extension

I found this article about life extension and coq10 in old mice...
http://www.coq10.co....e_extension.pdf

The article and other info can be found on this site...
http://www.coq10.co.nz

More research articles here
http://www.coq10.co....ticles-research

This is the non profit international coenzyme q10 foundation...
http://www.icqa.org/ICQA/home.html

Article about studies suggesting conflicting conclusions
http://www.kevinmd.c...-q10-money.html

I found reference to a couple of studies here that my provide more information....
Coles, S., & Harris, S. B. Co-enzyme Q-10 and life extension. In: Advances in Anti-Aging Medicine. Volume 1. Dr. Ronald M. Klatz (editor), 1996

Linnane, A. 9th International Symposium on Biomedical and Clinical Aspects of Coenzyme Q10. Ancona, Italy, 1996. Reported In: Life Extension. 2(11):42, 1996.

Edited by John2009, 21 May 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[John2009]

I know LEF has CoQ10 on their top ten list, but are most longecity forum members here using coQ10 ? Is this a worthwhile supplement for someone over 40 ? If so, what is a good daily dose ?

LEF two page List of 43 study citations:
https://www.lef.org/...ey=coenzyme q10

Thanks,
John

[jly1986]

CoQ10 always makes me feel really tired when I take it, which was always funny to me, because it's marketed as an energy-boosting supplement. I get so fatigued that I stop taking it and then after a couple days, I feel back to normal.

[Kevnzworld]

CoQ10 ( especially the ubiquinol form ) is good for aging people with heart conditions, especially early CHF. It helped my father the last few years of his life. It is also good for statin users to supplement given that statins reduce the amount of CoQ10 the liver produces.
Those that take higher doses of PUFA's ( fish oil ) can also benefit because CoQ10 reduces levels of lipid peroxidation.
I take 200 mg daily.

[rwac]

CoQ10 always makes me feel really tired when I take it, which was always funny to me, because it's marketed as an energy-boosting supplement. I get so fatigued that I stop taking it and then after a couple days, I feel back to normal.

Yes, this is exactly what I experience. CoQ10 promotes fat burning which definitely can affect people negatively. Fat is not as good a food for the brain as glucose.

[nameless]

I wonder if some of the people who notice fatigue from CoQ10 or Ubiquinol measured their blood pressures?

I noticed Ubiquinol at 200mg seems to lower my blood pressure a bit (around 10 pts or so)... which is actually a negative in my case, as sometimes it gets a bit too low. But I do recall some reports of people stating fatigue when switching from CoQ10 to Ubilquinol...and then I wondered if it's possible the fatigue is simply related to blood pressure.

Not that it matters, as if you get tired from it regardless of cause, it's doubtful it's worth taking. If a person has high blood pressure issues, it could be something to consider though.

[thenaturalstep]

Hi,
I am 32 yeas old and i am thinking about taking 30 mg Q10 each day. Of course when i read something like this it makes me think. But this was 2008, and it seemed to be a controversial opinion even then. I checked wikipedia and found nothing about decreasing life span, instead it seemed to improve your lifespan:

Lifespan

One study demonstrated that low dosages of CoQ₁₀ reduce oxidation and DNA double-strand breaks, and a combination of a diet rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids and CoQ₁₀ supplementation leads to a longer lifespan in rats.^[68] Coles and Harris demonstrated an extension in the lifespan of rats when they were given CoQ₁₀ supplementation.^[69] But multiple studies have since found no increase in lifespan or decrease in aging in mice and rats supplemented with CoQ₁₀.^{[70][71][72][73]} Another study demonstrated that CoQ₁₀ extends the lifespan of C. elegans (nematode).^[74]
Anti-aging

A 2013 study that characterizes an aspect of aging due to a nucleic communication breakdown with mitochondria inherently postulates a novel approach for CoQ₁₀ as an anti-aging factor, being that it facilitates mitochondria in energy production, thereby reversing the aging effect resulting from nutrient-deprived mitochondria, likened to the findings of non-functioning mitochondria as described in the study.^[75]

[pone11]

The original post says "Under certain circumstances, Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) may become a pro-oxidant. These circumstances are conditions in which hypoxia or lack of oxygen occurs. In cases of shock, heart attack, stroke, or poor circulation, CoQ10 auto-oxidizes and unleashes massive amounts of various free radicals that damage delicate tissues and because CoQ10 is necessary for electron transport and ATP (chemical energy) production, cellular death may ensue."

 

Can someone provide references for that, and can someone give a hypothesis for why a low oxygen condition would stimulate a pro-oxidation effect in CoQ10?   Less O2 in the mitochondria would provide less oxygen for electron transport chain, less aerobic metabolism, and fewer free radicals.   Something non-obvious happening there.

[pone11]

I would like to compare notes with other users here who might be getting negative effects from CoQ10 or MitoQ.    What I am discovering with both of these supplements is that I get some inappropriate kind of excitatory effect and the symptoms of this are wild and inappropriate changes in my pulse, and separately some kind of brain fog.   I'm currently suffering from some kind of mitochondrial injury that has destroyed most of my aerobic metabolism.   So my VO2Max numbers are lowest-data-point in a population study of 200+ people, including both sedentary and endurance trained groups.  Whatever the nature of the injury is, CoQ10 and MitoQ appear to aggravate the condition rather than improve it.

 

The fact that pulse runs around for a day after taking either CoQ10 or MitoQ to me suggests a possible adrenalin response.   And my serum adrenalin (and pituitary hormone) numbers have all been testing high.   They have excluded ACTH tumor, and have likely excluded adrenalin stimulating tumors, so the high adrenalin may be a response to supplements.   

 

I am interested in hearing from other users whether you have these kinds of issues after taking CoQ10 or MitoQ:

 

* pulse going higher

* blood pressure swings higher

* blood glucose readings both pre and postprandial that go higher

 

Do you get these symptoms, all of which might suggest an adrenalin response, for about a day or two after you supplement CoQ10 or MitoQ?   And very importantly do the symptoms immediately clear after a few days if you stop supplementing?    

 

Any other symptoms?   I note one user in this thread reporting lower blood pressure when taking ubiquinol but not ubiquinone.   CoQ10 appears to be a powerful mediator of metabolism in some of us, with some possibly non trivial effects going on behind the scenes.

 

We could prove adrenalin by doing a 24 hour urine catecholamines test before and after a period of supplementation.   That's a hassle and finding a doctor willing to cooperate will be hard for some of us.   I would first like to survey who else is having these effects.   Another user in the MitoQ thread is reporting the suspicious jumping pulse result, but apparently she is not on the site very often because she has not responded to me.

 

If any of you who get symptoms have 23andme testing done, what is the value on your MAO A RS6323 SNP?    I am a male with T, so that is equivalent to TT for a female.   T means you do not metabolize adrenalin efficiently.   So the interesting hypothesis (presently without an ounce of proof) is maybe many people are getting the adrenalin surge, but people without the risk allele on RS6323 simply metabolize it away so quickly they do not get lasting symptoms.

Edited by pone11, 19 March 2015 - 10:40 PM.

[niner]

I managed to find the 2002 paper that started this thread.  Here's the abstract.  There's free full text, if you want to register at sciencemag.com.  I did that, and read enough of the paper to conclude that its relevance to humans is pretty low.  The experiment was done in C. Elegans, and the "coenzyme Q" they are talking about is CoQ8, not CoQ10.  When the CoQ8 is removed from their diet, they use only CoQ9, which they are able to synthesize.  This results in some ETC alterations that end up producing less ROS.   Take rodent results with a grain of salt, and take non-mammalian results with two grains.  If they're invertebrate, take three.  This one hit the trifecta.

 

 

Edited by niner, 20 March 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[ceridwen]

Looks like I Have a problem with it as well as everything else. I thought taking it with LLT was supposed to be healthy and
Ive been taking it for several days. Now I have a racing pulse and massive inflammation

[pone11]

Looks like I Have a problem with it as well as everything else. I thought taking it with LLT was supposed to be healthy and
Ive been taking it for several days. Now I have a racing pulse and massive inflammation

 

Do you have a glucometer or are you willing to buy one?   TrueTest strips I buy on Amazon for less than $15 for 100 strips.  The TrueResult meter is under $12 and is quite accurate calibrated against other meters (although I did discover a design flaw where if you take a lot of saline water this affects the result on this meter only).   You would need to know your normal waking, premeal, and postpandrial glucose readings, and then compare those days before and after supplementing CoQ10 or MitoQ.

 

Do you record your blood pressure?

 

It would be really interesting to record all of this, not just the fast heartbeats.   If multiple people start reporting strange results for glucose, blood pressure, and heartbeat, that would fit high epinephrine very well.   If people are getting the erratic pulses in isolation, and never the other two, then we might have some other effect going on.

 

In my case, after CoQ10/MitoQ my blood sugars and pulses go up.   I have very clean arteries and never seem to get high blood pressure, even when very stressed.  So I do not see big changes in blood pressure.

 

Can you describe in more detail what you are calling massive inflammation?    The hormone cycle would be that adrenals create epinephrine, which stimulates the pituitary to release ACTH, which stimulates the adrenals to release cortisol.   Cortisol should lower inflammation.   So presence of "massive" inflammation might be a data point contradicting the hypothesis of higher adrenaline.

Edited by pone11, 20 March 2015 - 04:54 AM.

[ceridwen]

Head feels like its on fire. Outside very hot to the touch. 7 or 8 on a pain scale. I think I have mild Alzheimers constant
tinnitus and head inflammation finding movement difficult too. Very frightening symptoms as well as confusion feeling spacey
all the time. Head so hot I Wondered about spontainous combustion I mean very hot to the touch. Had 4 desert spoons MCT Oil
and it didn't seem quiet as bad. Quiet frightened to sleep. Must try to overhaul diet. Had pulse measured day before yesterday
it was racing extremely fast. I had been worried about mitochondria and also if this could be Lyme. I wanted to increase numbers
of mitochondria so had been taking CoEnzymeQ10. Before this I had had several blood tests no one complained about the rate of my
heart

[pone11]

Head feels like its on fire. Outside very hot to the touch. 7 or 8 on a pain scale. I think I have mild Alzheimers constant
tinnitus and head inflammation finding movement difficult too. Very frightening symptoms as well as confusion feeling spacey
all the time. Head so hot I Wondered about spontainous combustion I mean very hot to the touch. Had 4 desert spoons MCT Oil
and it didn't seem quiet as bad. Quiet frightened to sleep. Must try to overhaul diet. Had pulse measured day before yesterday
it was racing extremely fast. I had been worried about mitochondria and also if this could be Lyme. I wanted to increase numbers
of mitochondria so had been taking CoEnzymeQ10. Before this I had had several blood tests no one complained about the rate of my
heart

 

You can get PQQ to increase mitochondria count.  I haven't tested that separately from CoQ10 yet though.

 

I get an intense brain fog as well with CoQ10 and MitoQ, and sorry I did not mention that.   I don't get fever.   Since I have a mitochondrial condition developed in the last year that robs me of aerobic metabolism, I am very sensitive to anything that downregulates my electron transport chain (ETC).   Because any decrease in my aerobic metabolism and I do not have enough energy to run my brain.   What I call "brain fog" is actually more like an energy starvation of tissues.   It's like being at 20K feet and hypoxic, except I have plenty of oxygen.    I had assumed that CoQ10 / MitoQ might be causing some dysfunction in ETC and that was what explained the brain fog.   The studies on MitoQ I read suggest upregulation of Complex IV of the ETC and upregulation of *capacity* of Complex I, not dysfunction.   But how these things manifest in vivo is probably not trivial.

 

What do you mean by "mild Alzheimer's constant tinnitus".   Why do you associate tinnitus with Alzheimer's?

 

Again, it's a remarkable coincidence, but around the time I developed this mitochondrial problem I developed a very loud sound like a tuning fork deep in the brain.  There is no tumor, but it's a maddening persistent 24x7 sound that gets worse when I get the brain fog.   So maybe you could describe your tinnitus a bit more and does that ever go away for you?  It only develops when you take the CoQ10?

 

I think the heart rate is probably secondary to something else, possibly adrenaline.   Get your serum adrenalin tested and I'm guessing yours is going to be in the red line area.   You sound pretty stressed out by your condition and high adrenalin is a normal stress response.   High adrenalin that persists for long periods will make your heart do very crazy irregular patterns.

Edited by pone11, 20 March 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Razor444]

Because any decrease in my aerobic metabolism and I do not have enough energy to run my brain.

 

 

pone11: I presume you've tried MCT oil already? I only mention it just in case!

Edited by Razor444, 20 March 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[ceridwen]

It never goes away. I shall go to London next week to try to get a proper diagnosis. My Dr said we need to get the other symptoms difficulties walking and tinnitus labelled too. I wish I had tried yesterday. The dementia is worsening rapidly. Very frightening.The tinnitus came on at the same time as the dementia And has been hissing at me for the last year and a half while my memory has worsened. At last I might be diagnosed properly half the people with t Alzheimer's haven't been.I also have a leg cramp.

[ceridwen]

Yes that's what it feels like. I thought maybe I'd damaged my mitochondria which set off the Alzheimer's or some other autoimmune disease
My Aunt had Alzheimer's and tinnitus unless of course it was something else my Mother thought so but everyone including My Aunt called it Alzheimer's.
I'll take a spoonful of MCT oil now.

[ceridwen]

The tinnitus has been hissing since the October before last it stops or gets much softer sometimes. Much softer be doesn't disappear when I'm on NAD can get louder with brain inflammation.

[ceridwen]

I also have some sort of fatty gunk coating the roof of my mouth and my fingers sting

[pone11]

 

Because any decrease in my aerobic metabolism and I do not have enough energy to run my brain.

 

 

pone11: I presume you've tried MCT oil already? I only mention it just in case!

 

 

I've tried various forms of ketosis and lots of MCT Oil.  It doesn't seem to help.  Too much MCT also causes digestive problems.

 

Where ketosis gets interesting is when you are a little hypoxic, since ketones let you use less oxygen to produce the same amount of ATP.   My problem is apparently not in my ability to supply O2.  It's some metabolic defect or injury in the mitochondria, still to be determined.

[Dolph]

It's just a thought, but "stinging fingers" (neuropathy?), tinnitus and confusion/dementia, leg "cramps"... Does it feel by any chance as if there is a tight ring around your leg?

 

Was a B12 deficiency excluded already? To me this all sounds like the nonhematologic manifestations of pernicious anemia/severe B12 deficiency. It would be tragic if this was the case and not being treated cause it's such a trivial problem. 

Edited by Dolph, 20 March 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[pone11]

 

 

Because any decrease in my aerobic metabolism and I do not have enough energy to run my brain.

 

 

pone11: I presume you've tried MCT oil already? I only mention it just in case!

 

 

I've tried various forms of ketosis and lots of MCT Oil.  It doesn't seem to help.  Too much MCT also causes digestive problems.

 

Where ketosis gets interesting is when you are a little hypoxic, since ketones let you use less oxygen to produce the same amount of ATP.   My problem is apparently not in my ability to supply O2.  It's some metabolic defect or injury in the mitochondria, still to be determined.

 

 

Just a quick add on this:  ketosis feels great when you get significant ketones.  The brain likes it.   The problem is getting significant ketones for me requires some combination of starvation, exercise, and carb deprivation that is extremely stressful.   I have a blood ketone meter so I do test.  

 

I would love to try ketone esters if those get commercialized at a good price.   I've tried ketone salts and they run right through me, so they are not a sustainable solution.

 

Now, back to the CoQ10 channel....

[ceridwen]

Hmm when last measured I had plenty of oxygen 100% saturation so there's plenty of oxygen in the blood. I still might not have enough in the brain.

[ceridwen]

I had been thinking that this is a mitochondrial thing with me too but then as Alzheimer's is passed down the Mother line and I had been going demented...

[ceridwen]

No dolph it doesn't in fact the leg cramp was 1st time it happened

[ceridwen]

That would be interesting my husband has pernicious anemiea. He has been able to go back to work but isnt working now we'll be ok for about a month.We have had a largely raw food fruit based diet when we are together because he likes that but when we are not I eat that so I very much doubt that's the problem. I did read about something called Susacs syndrome and going through the symptoms it could be that but I think my lesions are in the wrong place for that so back to early Alzheimer's. Whatever it is it might be a good idea to starve it out but this has been fairly impossible which probably means it's the right treatment.

[Dolph]

Pernicious anemia (and related problems) is not a problem of diet but is caused by a loss of gastric parietal cells. By diet there can be done nothing about it. The terrible thing is that because of todays widespread folic acid consumption the hematological signs of PA won't show up and doctors don't realize it can be present in the presence of perfectly normal erythrocytes.

Edited by Dolph, 20 March 2015 - 09:31 PM.

[ceridwen]

My pulse probably does go up after Q10 as I been measrured loads of times and the only time someone said my pulse was extremely rapid was after Q10.

[niner]

We have had a largely raw food fruit based diet when we are together because he likes that but when we are not I eat that so I very much doubt that's the problem.

 

Wait, you're a fruitarian?  Maybe this is the problem, or a good part of it.  Are you getting the enough of all the essential micronutrients?  Enough protein?  Maybe you should try a healthy conventional diet for a while-  It sounds like you don't have much to lose, but maybe a lot to gain. 

[JR7]

I would like to compare notes with other users here who might be getting negative effects from CoQ10 or MitoQ.    What I am discovering with both of these supplements is that I get some inappropriate kind of excitatory effect and the symptoms of this are wild and inappropriate changes in my pulse, and separately some kind of brain fog.   I'm currently suffering from some kind of mitochondrial injury that has destroyed most of my aerobic metabolism.   So my VO2Max numbers are lowest-data-point in a population study of 200+ people, including both sedentary and endurance trained groups.  Whatever the nature of the injury is, CoQ10 and MitoQ appear to aggravate the condition rather than improve it.

 

The fact that pulse runs around for a day after taking either CoQ10 or MitoQ to me suggests a possible adrenalin response.   And my serum adrenalin (and pituitary hormone) numbers have all been testing high.   They have excluded ACTH tumor, and have likely excluded adrenalin stimulating tumors, so the high adrenalin may be a response to supplements.   

 

I am interested in hearing from other users whether you have these kinds of issues after taking CoQ10 or MitoQ:

 

* pulse going higher

* blood pressure swings higher

* blood glucose readings both pre and postprandial that go higher

 

Do you get these symptoms, all of which might suggest an adrenalin response, for about a day or two after you supplement CoQ10 or MitoQ?   And very importantly do the symptoms immediately clear after a few days if you stop supplementing?    

 

Any other symptoms?   I note one user in this thread reporting lower blood pressure when taking ubiquinol but not ubiquinone.   CoQ10 appears to be a powerful mediator of metabolism in some of us, with some possibly non trivial effects going on behind the scenes.

 

We could prove adrenalin by doing a 24 hour urine catecholamines test before and after a period of supplementation.   That's a hassle and finding a doctor willing to cooperate will be hard for some of us.   I would first like to survey who else is having these effects.   Another user in the MitoQ thread is reporting the suspicious jumping pulse result, but apparently she is not on the site very often because she has not responded to me.

 

If any of you who get symptoms have 23andme testing done, what is the value on your MAO A RS6323 SNP?    I am a male with T, so that is equivalent to TT for a female.   T means you do not metabolize adrenalin efficiently.   So the interesting hypothesis (presently without an ounce of proof) is maybe many people are getting the adrenalin surge, but people without the risk allele on RS6323 simply metabolize it away so quickly they do not get lasting symptoms.

I too have had an adverse reaction with CoQ10 supplementation. A few days into the regimen, and I start experiencing heart palpitations. Not a racing heart (heart rate in the 50s/60s) but a giant Thud sensation from the heart periodically throughout the day. It's rather unnerving. 

Also, I too am a T with RS6323

Edited by Jreinhal, 22 March 2015 - 01:08 AM.