49 replies to this topic

[SonofSocrates]

I think it is relevant to note that the studies referenced at the start of this thread were done done by Dr. Heber. http://www.herbalife...rd/david-heber/

Heber is shill for industry, so I have to question any results he publishes

I actually was working at UCLA when these studies were being conducted at their GCRC.

Now I'm not arguing the science, you just always need to think about who is making a claim and why.

[niner]

I think it is relevant to note that the studies referenced at the start of this thread were done done by Dr. Heber. http://www.herbalife...rd/david-heber/

Heber is shill for industry, so I have to question any results he publishes

I actually was working at UCLA when these studies were being conducted at their GCRC.

Now I'm not arguing the science, you just always need to think about who is making a claim and why.

Being on a Scientific Advisory Board hardly makes Heber a "shill for industry". For godsake, look at the guy's research interest and record. How much money do you think an SAB member gets?

[CarlSagan]

Going by this, the juice inhibits cortisol at 500ml pretty much the same as 650mg of extract @ 241mg prunicalagins & 373mg biophenols

https://www.research...lthy_volunteers

 

https://www.research...thy_volunteers/

 

Though I don't know if it's a good idea to take for longer than a few weeks. It inhibits 11βHSD1 enzyme which has the role of increasing conversion to cortisol. so this has a significant suppressant effect which lasts, as the enzyme takes about 24 hours to replenish to 50% effectiveness and 3 days or so for full functioning (when not being actively inhibited anymore). 

People with too low cortisol feel like shit (i.e addisons) 

Would be nice if there was a way to limit the cortisol lowering effects to night time only though. and i'm wondering if there could be some beneficial bounce-back effect after stopping 

Edited by CarlSagan, 08 June 2021 - 10:55 AM.

[ironfistx]

So what's the best ingredient?

 

I googled and found some that have just punicalagins:

https://www.vitacost...ing-vitagranate

https://www.iherb.co...n-Capsules/7453

 

Some that have just ellagic acid:

https://www.vitacost...granate-extract

 

Some that have punicalagins and something called punicic acid:

https://www.vitacost...ete-30-softgels

 

Some that have something called pucinosides and elligic acid:

https://www.swansonv...complex-60-caps

Edited by ironfistx, 13 June 2021 - 02:28 PM.

[ironfistx]

Guys how much juice do we need to drink per day?  This is expensive.

Edited by ironfistx, 23 June 2021 - 04:31 PM.

[CarlSagan]

Guys how much juice do we need to drink per day?  This is expensive.

 

For what purpose? If it's for your heart health 180ml a day might be effective

 

but may not be best for long term consumption due to impacts on lowering cortisol, probably happening around this amount too going by effects of other juices on enzymes, but shown at 500ml

Edited by CarlSagan, 26 June 2021 - 11:15 AM.

[pamojja]

Going by this, the juice inhibits cortisol at 500ml pretty much the same as 650mg of extract @ 241mg prunicalagins & 373mg biophenols

 

For what purpose? If it's for your heart health 180ml a day might be effective

 

but may not be best for long term consumption due to impacts on lowering cortisol, probably happening around this amount too going by effects of other juices on enzymes, but shown at 500ml

 

In my case the purpose was a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (of course, along with many other supplements). And experienced remission from a walking-disabilty due to that.

 

I've been taking 820 mg of various pomegranate extracts per day for more than 12 years. In average standardized to 220 mg/d punicalgins plus 20 mg/d ellagic acid.

Still suffer from too high cortisol (serum AM and urine 24 hrs).

 

[CarlSagan]

In my case the purpose was a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (of course, along with many other supplements). And experienced remission from a walking-disabilty due to that.

 

I've been taking 820 mg of various pomegranate extracts per day for more than 12 years. In average standardized to 220 mg/d punicalgins plus 20 mg/d ellagic acid.

Still suffer from too high cortisol (serum AM and urine 24 hrs).

 

Cool, how long did it take to see results for that?

 

interesting I wonder why your experience conflicts with the studies, maybe some sort of balancing effect over time, or something else you're taking which could counter this enzyme inhibition effect? I read about the HPA axis regulating cortsiol, but possibly having lowered or hightened cortisol for too long impacting the set-point of your HPA axis leading to chronically low/high levels, tho that might be speculation. I saw a study mentioning lowering cortisol on purpose to alter HPA set-point then removing the suppressor. 

 

so for the 24 hr test your cortisol showed a high baseline with a low curve at sustained high levels? or normal / low baseline but spikes high with a big curve?

Edited by CarlSagan, 26 June 2021 - 01:19 PM.

[CarlSagan]

I saw a study mentioning lowering cortisol on purpose to alter HPA set-point then removing the suppressor. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2613527/

 

"The hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is a major system maintaining body homeostasis by regulating the neuroendocrine and sympathetic nervous systems as well modulating immune function. Recent work has shown that the complex dynamics of this system accommodate several stable steady states, one of which corresponds to the hypocortisol state observed in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).

 

Here we use model-based predictive control (MPC) methodology to estimate robust treatment courses for displacing the HPA axis from an abnormal hypocortisol steady state back to a healthy cortisol level.

 

This approach was applied to a recent model of HPA axis dynamics incorporating glucocorticoid receptor kinetics. A candidate treatment that displays robust properties in the face of significant biological variability and measurement uncertainty requires that cortisol be further suppressed for a short period until adrenocorticotropic hormone levels exceed 30% of baseline.

 

Treatment may then be discontinued, and the HPA axis will naturally progress to a stable attractor defined by normal hormone levels. Suppression of biologically available cortisol may be achieved through the use of binding proteins such as CBG and certain metabolizing enzymes, thus offering possible avenues for deployment in a clinical setting. Treatment strategies can therefore be designed that maximally exploit system dynamics to provide a robust response to treatment and ensure a positive outcome over a wide range of conditions. Perhaps most importantly, a treatment course involving further reduction in cortisol, even transient, is quite counterintuitive and challenges the conventional strategy of supplementing cortisol levels, an approach based on steady-state reasoning.

 

Our analysis indicates that one such treatment could involve a pharmacologically induced reduction in cortisol forcing a build-up of ACTH. Upon reaching a specific threshold concentration of ACTH, the intervention is discontinued and the HPA axis will return to a healthy steady state under its own volition as this is now the closest attractor for the system"

 

So theoretically going by this, reducing cortisol with pomegranate juice temporarily should cause a rise in ACTH above baseline as a response. then removing the pomegranate juice with this elevated ACTH should bounce cortisol back up to levels matching the ACTH, and hpa axis form a new higher state from the reset. 

Edited by CarlSagan, 26 June 2021 - 02:02 PM.

[pamojja]

Cool, how long did it take to see results for that?

 

Used Linus Pauling's recommendations and comprehensive supplementation. Improvement in pain-free walking distance already after a year and then gradually increasing, and after reaching therapeutic level of its main ascorbic acid and l-lysine (6g each).

 

The 3rd year a setback due to a year-long chronic bronchitis (with a COPD diagnosis after, asymptomatic since), thereafter increasing painfree-walking distance again. In the 7th year remission.

 

..so for the 24 hr test your cortisol showed a high baseline with a low curve at sustained high levels? or normal / low baseline but spikes high with a big curve?

 

24 hr urine test collects the urine for 24 hrs. Therefore doesn't show the variations during the day. But had them repeatetly showing high cortisol. AM serum cortisol repeatedly high too.


 

[pamojja]

So theoretically going by this, reducing cortisol with pomegranate juice temporarily should cause a rise in ACTH above baseline as a response. then removing the pomegranate juice with this elevated ACTH should bounce cortisol back up to levels matching the ACTH, and hpa axis form a new higher state from the reset. 

 

The problem with studies is that they usually report the average results. There always could be individuals in the same studies who due to bio-chemical individuality responted the exact opposite. Then of course they are very short-term, while long-term effects almost allways remain completely unknown.
 

Just rechecked my lab-results again. AM cortisol actually was only 2 times out of 12 tests above normal. 24-hrs urine 4 out of 5. With the caveat that I tested 24-hrs urine only since 5 years. And AM cortsol showed also only high the last 5 years. Additionally too infrequently tested before, therefore impossible to have any certainty of probable excursion then. However still, cortisol never showed low.

 

ACTH initially normal, now interestingly 6 year ago below normal, and 2 years ago above normal. Already reaching the upper limit of range a year before, and back there a year after.

 

Also concerning your thesis, I actually never ceased the pomegranate extract intake.

 

[ironfistx]

In my case the purpose was a 80% stenosis at my abdominal aorta (of course, along with many other supplements). And experienced remission from a walking-disabilty due to that.

 

I've been taking 820 mg of various pomegranate extracts per day for more than 12 years. In average standardized to 220 mg/d punicalgins plus 20 mg/d ellagic acid.

Still suffer from too high cortisol (serum AM and urine 24 hrs).

 

 

Can you reference to the supplement you take?  I shared some in my post but they had punicalgins OR ellagic acid, but not both.

[pamojja]

As said, I used various pomegranate extracts. In the beginning 1 standardized to ellagic acid available in Germany (Kräuterhaus.de). When I found out for my purpose it actually better would have to be standardized to punicalgin I changed to LEF standardized to punicalgins and their blueberry/pomegranate combination product, which I've been mostly using. Since that's pretty expensive only ordered when on special sales, when it was available for at least half the price. At infrequent times ordered also from vitacost.com. Sure forgot some.

 

Recent years LEF-Europe doesn't give that high discounts anymore, therefore changed back to the initial German product, until sunday.de introduced an effortable pomegranate product standardized to punicalgin.

 

Punicalgins are a kind of Gallo Ellagic Tannins (for example also found in Amla), which as the name implies are in the group of Tannins of Flavonoids. Ellagic acid itself isn't a Flavonoid, but a constituent part.

 

That's how my average intake came about.

 

In average standardized to 220 mg/d punicalgins plus 20 mg/d ellagic acid.

 

However, thats only the part standardized to (if the company is honest).

 

Practically every pomegranate product will contain at least some punicalgins (since that is what the ellagic acid is a constituent of. Could of course also be faked by adding a synthetic version of it. As they for example also do with mushroom extracts standardized to Polisacchardes, by simply adding cheap starches). And any extract standardized to Punicalgins also some Ellagic acid, since its a part of it. One just can't be certain how much.

Edited by pamojja, 28 June 2021 - 09:09 AM.

[Phoebus]

Interesting how no one discusses grape seeds and skins as sources of ellagitannins 

 

see this study, look at table 3 clearly shows both the seeds and skins contain ellagitannins 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5372644/

 

grapeseed extract is not expensive and easily obtainable. There is also products with both grape skin and seed which is what I take since the skin and seed have different flavonoids and different health properties. 

 

Now if you are specifically looking for Punicalgins then grapeseeds may not be the best source for that. But I am pretty sure the body can make urolithin from any ellagitannin. 

[pamojja]

Interesting how no one discusses grape seeds and skins as sources of ellagitannins

see this study, look at table 3 clearly shows both the seeds and skins contain ellagitannins

Even if skin and seeds contain minuscule amounts of ellagitannins, grapeseed extracts are usually standardized to ~90% OPCs. And would contain even much less really not worth mentioning.

But I am pretty sure the body can make urolithin from any ellagitannin. [/size][/font][/color]

My body doesn't has the gut-bacteria able to make urolithin according to my ubiome test. So from where does your certainty originate?

[Phoebus]

I don't get the standardized GSE, I buy direct from grape orchards, much better that way. Fresher and higher quality, IMO  

 

But also if you can't make urolithin A from GSE, then you can't make it from pomegranate either, right? 

[pamojja]

Yes.

[Phoebus]

Is the the gut-bacteria able to make urolithin available to purchase? 

[pamojja]

There are different approaches in the making, but didn't follow it recently. Maybe a Longicity search for Urolithin would inform? https://cse.google.c...238bc964d3248f2

Edited by pamojja, 29 June 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[sub7]

Bringing this back to Pomegranate extract....
 

Does anyone know if heat-treated Pomegranate juice loses potency of some of the actives mentioned in this thread?

Thanks