302 replies to this topic

[chicha]

Regarding Solaray's Magnesium Biocitrate
http://www.nutraceut...t_index=3363931, how does one reconcile this statement on the bottle: "Minerals bonded with citric acid are specifically formulated for people with low stomach acid." with the following product from Pure Encapsulations?

http://www.purecaps....y00.asp?T1=TRI3
For the Tri-Alkali product, it says this on the website: "In one randomized, double blind trial with postmenopausal women, an increase in alkali status via potassium citrate supported healthy bone composition of the neck, vertebrae and hip. Supple,mentation provided sustained systemic alkalization."

Note that the Solaray product is referring to mineral citrates in general, not to their specific product's formulation of magnesium (bio)citrate. If the Solaray product is for people with low stomach acid, it stands to reason the pH is below 7.

How can Pure Encapsulations say that their Tri-Alkali product consisting of calcium, magnesium and potassium citrates is alkalizing? The only thing I can figure is Solaray's description on the bottle isn't exactly precise and is referring to their specific product as having been acidulated. Anyone have another opinion?

P.S. If anyone is looking for a potassium supplement, Pure Encapsulations has the highest potency capsule on the market, 200 mg., their potassium citrate. All other sellers claim that 99 mg. is the maximum allowed by law.

[chicha]

I prefer capsules myself. But finding orotates and Albion chelates in capsule form requires a lot of searching around. Kirkman Labs encapsulates magnesium glycinate and calcium bisglycinate. ProThera does a magnesium glycinate/lysinate capsule. The latter doesn't sell to the public and the former has a very restricted distributor network. Bluebonnet has a magnesium bisglycinate Vcap.
Solaray has a calcium bisglycinate Vcap at 250 mg each. I may have to go with regular tablets, though, because there's a greater selection to choose from (in terms of milligrams per tablet) - maybe Carlson.

If you prefer capsules, you can just get the bluebonnet vcap with mag glycinate. Iherb offers it, relatively cheap. Same dosage as the Carlson brand... same Albion chelate.

Although I do notice that the Bluebonnet brand states it is buffered mag glycinate. But I do not see any other ingredients listed, so no idea what that means exactly or if they buffered it with something else. Could very well just be marketing-speak, and they consider glycinate a form of buffering.

Yeah, it is that issue that has me looking at Douglas Labs' magnesium glycinate/lysinate tablets. My preference is
to take more magnesium than calcium; actually to minimize calcium intake. So I prefer a lower milligram product than the Solaray 250 mg Calcium Bisglycinate capsule. I believe that a high/moderate vegetable intake is far more important than calcium in the diet. (A low vegetable intake is the norm in the American diet.) Magnesium is the missing link.

[ajnast4r]

2 things:

1) tablets are not an issue if the company adheres to usp dissolution standards

2) nutraceutical (solaray, kal) glycinates are not albion as far as i know, they are most likely cheap chinese knock offs.... theres no albion stamp on their bottles and albion does, i believe, require their stamp or name to be mentioned on the bottle of companies using their chelates. companies also usually like to throw out the fact that their minerals are albion chelates, as its a desirable product and fetches a higher asking price.

[nameless]

2 things:

1) tablets are not an issue if the company adheres to usp dissolution standards

2) nutraceutical (solaray, kal) glycinates are not albion as far as i know, they are most likely cheap chinese knock offs.... theres no albion stamp on their bottles and albion does, i believe, require their stamp or name to be mentioned on the bottle of companies using their chelates. companies also usually like to throw out the fact that their minerals are albion chelates, as its a desirable product and fetches a higher asking price.

Regarding Kal, I was curious about their magnesium orotate, not the glycinate. According to Nutraceutical (at least what their salesgirl told me over the phone), they source their orotate from the U.S., but I'm not sure what sort of testing they do. The price difference between Cardio-Mag vs KAL magnesium orotate is quite a lot, so if KAL was at least semi-respectable as a company, I'd consider trying it.

And I'm not sure where their glycinate comes, from but yeah, don't bother with mag glycinate unless it's an Albion. Plenty to choose from out there... Carlson, Bluebonnet, Douglas Labs, Solgar, etc. The only real differences seems to be tablet vs capsule, which only matters if you have swallowing problems or an aversion to large tablets. The Douglas Labs one has a little lysine in it too. I currently have the Bluebonnet and Douglas Labs Mag Albions, both seem fine, neither really difficult to swallow.

Edited by nameless, 25 June 2008 - 10:38 PM.

[krillin]

Regarding Solaray's Magnesium Biocitrate
http://www.nutraceut...t_index=3363931, how does one reconcile this statement on the bottle: "Minerals bonded with citric acid are specifically formulated for people with low stomach acid." with the following product from Pure Encapsulations?

http://www.purecaps....y00.asp?T1=TRI3
For the Tri-Alkali product, it says this on the website: "In one randomized, double blind trial with postmenopausal women, an increase in alkali status via potassium citrate supported healthy bone composition of the neck, vertebrae and hip. Supple,mentation provided sustained systemic alkalization."

Note that the Solaray product is referring to mineral citrates in general, not to their specific product's formulation of magnesium (bio)citrate. If the Solaray product is for people with low stomach acid, it stands to reason the pH is below 7.

How can Pure Encapsulations say that their Tri-Alkali product consisting of calcium, magnesium and potassium citrates is alkalizing? The only thing I can figure is Solaray's description on the bottle isn't exactly precise and is referring to their specific product as having been acidulated. Anyone have another opinion?

Magnesium citrate isn't for acid replacement, it's a salt that doesn't require acid to dissolve. It's also bad form to speak of a solid pill as having a pH. It merely has a number of acid or base equivalents. The pH of the solution it forms will depend on the amount of water too.

[chicha]

2 things:

1) tablets are not an issue if the company adheres to usp dissolution standards

2) nutraceutical (solaray, kal) glycinates are not albion as far as i know, they are most likely cheap chinese knock offs.... theres no albion stamp on their bottles and albion does, i believe, require their stamp or name to be mentioned on the bottle of companies using their chelates. companies also usually like to throw out the fact that their minerals are albion chelates, as its a desirable product and fetches a higher asking price.

Regarding (1) - The issue for some isn't necessarily one of dissolution as much as it is allergic reactions to the excipients required for tabletting, which can be avoided with encapsulation.
Regarding (2) - Thanks for pointing that out. One sees "amino acid chelate", "glycinate" and automatically thinks Albion - even though Albion isn't mentioned on the product label on iherb and other sites!. And then you have some reputable brands and you think "they must have inadvertently omitted the information" "or maybe there wasn't enough space on the label"! So if Albion isn't being mentioned on the manufacturers very own label, assuming websites are rendering the actual product description and not a reconstructed one, look elsewhere.

[chicha]

Regarding Solaray's Magnesium Biocitrate
http://www.nutraceut...t_index=3363931, how does one reconcile this statement on the bottle: "Minerals bonded with citric acid are specifically formulated for people with low stomach acid." with the following product from Pure Encapsulations?

http://www.purecaps....y00.asp?T1=TRI3
For the Tri-Alkali product, it says this on the website: "In one randomized, double blind trial with postmenopausal women, an increase in alkali status via potassium citrate supported healthy bone composition of the neck, vertebrae and hip. Supple,mentation provided sustained systemic alkalization."

Note that the Solaray product is referring to mineral citrates in general, not to their specific product's formulation of magnesium (bio)citrate. If the Solaray product is for people with low stomach acid, it stands to reason the pH is below 7.

How can Pure Encapsulations say that their Tri-Alkali product consisting of calcium, magnesium and potassium citrates is alkalizing? The only thing I can figure is Solaray's description on the bottle isn't exactly precise and is referring to their specific product as having been acidulated. Anyone have another opinion?

Magnesium citrate isn't for acid replacement, it's a salt that doesn't require acid to dissolve. It's also bad form to speak of a solid pill as having a pH. It merely has a number of acid or base equivalents. The pH of the solution it forms will depend on the amount of water too.

I agree. Betaine hydrochloride or glutamic acid hydrochloride is for acid replacement. And yes a solid betaine hydrochloride tablet has a pH, a very acid one. Would you deny that? Also, are you claiming that these mineral compound (tablets) can't be made highly acidic or highly base - based on the manufacturers target market? I've written of a communication I had with Kirkman Labs (they specialize in supplements for Autism). They sell two amino acid glycinate chelates, one buffered and the other highly basic. The buffered one was requested by medical practitioners for their autistic patients that lack sufficient gastric acidity.

[krillin]

And yes a solid betaine hydrochloride tablet has a pH, a very acid one. Would you deny that?

I do. pH is a solution property and is meaningless when talking about solids. The useful measurement is the equivalents of acid/base per gram.

Also, are you claiming that these mineral compound (tablets) can't be made highly acidic or highly base - based on the manufacturers target market?

Where would you get that idea?

[zeus]

Any try magnesium oil? http://www.puremagoil.com/

[chicha]

Know why the recommended calcium to magnesium ratio is 2 to 1? I'll bet not 1 in 100,000 can give the answer.

It's because calcium is constipating! - says Dr. Weil.

http://www.drweil.co.../u/id/QAA359907

[niner]

Any try magnesium oil? http://www.puremagoil.com/

I've looked over their materials, and in my opinion, it is a fraud. They are selling wildly overpriced mineral oil with some unspecified amount of magnesium chloride in it. Since magnesium chloride is quite insoluble in mineral oil, there can't be much there. They further claim that it is transdermally available, which is simply BS. This stuff gets my vote as the worst form of magnesium available.

[wolfeye]

So far I've found magnesium orotate to be the best mg supplement. I've tried other salts like MgO and MgCitrate but they result in severe orthostatic hypotension. My cells seems to absorb MgOrotate better.

Edited by Henry, 17 September 2008 - 04:32 PM.

[catfanatic1979]

I find it best to take Mag orotate in morning and Mag Glycinate at night.

[tunt01]

i found mag orotate great, but the cancer risk was never fully resolved to my satisfaction (also due to lack of time spent looking at the issue).

i remember going over this thread and never figuring out the best mag form.... still on my long list of things to look at. i have mag malate sitting the shelf but don't take it regularly.

[niner]

i found mag orotate great, but the cancer risk was never fully resolved to my satisfaction (also due to lack of time spent looking at the issue).

i remember going over this thread and never figuring out the best mag form.... still on my long list of things to look at. i have mag malate sitting the shelf but don't take it regularly.

Cancer risk? I'm going to guess that this is probably not a problem, but what do you know about it? I've been taking orotate for a while based on it improving athletic performance in a small study. After everything I've seen on it, my impression is that most any form except oxide is pretty good. I just bought some citrate for my wife.

[tunt01]

search around for orotic acid and cancer. typically liver cancer or mabye duodenal cancer?... i think it was mostly liver when i was looking at it. it seemed to possibly promote it, from what i recall.

i switched to malate, but haven't taken it regularly tbh

[Rational Madman]

search around for orotic acid and cancer. typically liver cancer or mabye duodenal cancer?... i think it was mostly liver when i was looking at it. it seemed to possibly promote it, from what i recall.

i switched to malate, but haven't taken it regularly tbh

I'm pretty pleased with results that I've been getting with AOR's Magnesium Malate Renew, and since I've tried several forms of magnesium, I would vote for magnesium malate.

[plex]

And what about magnesium chloride mixed in water, is it not good?

[nameless]

i found mag orotate great, but the cancer risk was never fully resolved to my satisfaction (also due to lack of time spent looking at the issue).

i remember going over this thread and never figuring out the best mag form.... still on my long list of things to look at. i have mag malate sitting the shelf but don't take it regularly.

The cancer thing sort of bothers me too. It probably isn't a real risk, but I know it was used in rat studies to promote cancer. Rat livers also have problems with mag orotate, but I think that is confined to just rats. Nieper used mag orotate and claimed it reduced the risk of cancer for his patients. But I still worry sometimes about those ratty cancer promotion studies...

And I have taken mag orotate (AOR), but am on a break from it, mostly because I ran out and don't feel like spending a lot to get a new supply.

I've found the mag glycinates (albion) reliable. One bit of info about the albion mags I found out is that the buffered versions (Carlson, Bluebonnet) use mag oxide as a buffering agent. I don't know if they include the mag oxide as part of the total elemental mag per capsule... hopefully they don't... but the albion folks wouldn't say.

I've tried a couple of other mags: Mag taurate upset my stomach. I'm afraid of increased lead/aluminum absorption from the citrates. And recently tried a biotron chelate, but was a bit disappointed with it. It didn't really help my tight muscles much.

Edited by nameless, 25 September 2009 - 05:08 AM.

[tunt01]

yea i dont claim to know the answer. i spent like a day or two looking at orotic acid, malic acid, etc. i never really came to any firm conclusions. albion is probably the safest. bluebonnet makes some good stuff.

[pycnogenol]

Nutrient Carriers (i.e., Hans Nieper) has a product called Magnesium 2-AEP. Anyone tried this Mag product?

Here is the product:

http://www.iherb.com...Caps/18065?at=0

[nameless]

I considered trying Magnesium 2-AEP at one time, but the lack of human data on that specific form scared me off. There really isn't a ton of longterm data on mag orotate either, when you think about it -- mostly just Nieper info and a couple of short-term studies.

One other form I've thought of trying is magnesium lactate. But it's a pain to find (only 1-2 manufacturers that I know of).

[niner]

i found mag orotate great, but the cancer risk was never fully resolved to my satisfaction (also due to lack of time spent looking at the issue).

The cancer thing sort of bothers me too. It probably isn't a real risk, but I know it was used in rat studies to promote cancer. Rat livers also have problems with mag orotate, but I think that is confined to just rats. Nieper used mag orotate and claimed it reduced the risk of cancer for his patients. But I still worry sometimes about those ratty cancer promotion studies...

Here is a paper that makes me feel better about it. Basically, the rats got huge doses, and they are rats. Humans getting 6g/d of orotic acid show no problems. The 200mg/d (elemental) mag orotate that I take is pretty negligible in comparison to both of these. I hate it when these scares come up. They are in all likelihood irrelevant to normal human dosage, but they are hard to put out of your mind.

Cancer Res. 1992 Apr 1;52(7 Suppl):2082s-2084s. Free Full Text
Nitrogen-stimulated orotic acid synthesis and nucleotide imbalance.
Visek WJ.

University of Illinois, College of Medicine, Urbana 61801.

Orotic acid, first discovered in ruminant milk, is an intermediate in the pyrimidine biosynthesis pathway of animal cells. Its synthesis is initiated by the formation of carbamoyl phosphate (CP) in the cytoplasm, with ammonia derived from glutamine. Ureotelic species also form CP in the first step of urea synthesis in liver mitochondria. For that, ammonia is derived from tissue fluid. When there is insufficient capacity for detoxifying the load of ammonia presented for urea synthesis, CP leaves the mitochondria and enters the pyrimidine pathway, where orotic acid biosynthesis is stimulated, orotic acid excretion in urine then increases. Orotic acid synthesis is abnormally high with hereditary deficiencies of urea-cycle enzymes or uridine monophosphate synthase. It is also elevated by ammonia intoxication and during feeding of diets high in protein, high in lysine with respect to arginine, or deficient in arginine, ornithine, and citrulline. Rats fed 1% orotic acid or diets deficient in urea-cycle amino acids develop fatty livers, which has not been demonstrated in other species. Humans consuming 6 g of orotic acid daily have not shown adverse effects. Rats fed 1% orotic acid or arginine-deficient diets also showed more and larger foci positive for gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase and more liver tumors after administration of carcinogens and partial hepatectomy. Orotic acid feeding was also associated with the tendency for development of larger mammary tumors induced by chemical carcinogens in rats and with development of urinary bladder calculi containing high concentrations of orotic acid in mice. Conditions that raise tissue orotic acid change purine-pyrimidine ratios. It is unknown whether tissue orotate concentrations play a role in the recently observed enhanced proliferation of cells in the colon of rats fed high-protein, high-fat diets or in the promotion of chemically induced colon cancer by intrarectal administration of ammonium acetate.

PMID: 1544144

[nameless]

Here is a paper that makes me feel better about it. Basically, the rats got huge doses, and they are rats. Humans getting 6g/d of orotic acid show no problems. The 200mg/d (elemental) mag orotate that I take is pretty negligible in comparison to both of these. I hate it when these scares come up. They are in all likelihood irrelevant to normal human dosage, but they are hard to put out of your mind.

The rat doses were really large, and orotic acid isn't carcinogenic, so it shouldn't cause cancer. But it maybe could worsen cancer in people if any ever popped up (at least that's my concern). The rat liver issues are just ratty problems (that I know of), but they did use orotic acid to promote tumors in rats given carcinogens. So I worry that orotic acid could theoretically do the same in people.

200mg/day elemental equates to about 2.88 grams daily of orotic acid. Still safely under the 6 gram mark, but all that tested for were immediate problems (I assume).

Has an orotic acid/cancer study been run in any species besides rats?
What dose of orotic acid, if any, do people usually get via diet? One of the things that makes me feel better about some of the other amino acid chelates is the fact that the amino acids used are pretty harmless and are consumed via diet already.

The benefits of mag orotate probably outweigh any potential negatives. I just wish there weren't any potential negatives.

[meat250]

Another type of magnesium is good, if you can find it. It's magnesium taurate, a combination of the amino acid taurine and magnesium. It stabilizes cell membranes and calms the nervous system. According to The Magnesium Miracle, page 245, "Magnesium taurate does not have a laxative effect and is the recommended form of magnesium for people with heart problems."

In The Magnesium Miracle, Dr. Dean notes on page 245 that, "In a series of studies published since the early 1970s, it appears that the amino acid taurine is important for heart health and may prevent arrythmias and protect the heart against the damaged caused by hear attacks."


Meat

[niner]

The European Food Safety Authority has concerns about orotate.

Summary

Following a request from the European Commission to the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), the Panel on Food Additives and Nutrient Sources added to Food (ANS) was asked to provide a scientific opinion on the safety of magnesium orotate, zinc orotate, calcium orotate, chromium orotate, copper orotate, iron orotate, manganese orotate, potassium orotate, sodium orotate and choline orotate added for nutritional purposes as a source of magnesium, zinc, calcium, chromium, copper, iron, manganese, potassium, sodium and choline in food supplements and on the bioavailability of these cations from these sources.

The present opinion deals only with the safety of orotate sources of the ten cations mentioned above and the bioavailability of the nutrient cations from these sources, intended for use in food supplements. The safety of the nutrient cations themselves, in terms of amounts that may be consumed, is outside the remit of this Panel.

Orotic acid is an intermediate in the pyrimidine biosynthesis, which is required for DNA and RNA synthesis. It was originally introduced as a vitamin, called vitamin B13, but essentiality has not been demonstrated.

Orotic acid occurs mainly in milk from ruminants, with highest amounts being found in animals which are deficient in arginine and uridine-5’-monophosphate activity. In cows’ milk amounts of 20-100 mg/L are found and somewhat higher amounts in goat’s and sheep’s milk. Orotic acid has also been detected in infant formula in amounts of 15-118 mg/L, which is reflecting the range of cow’s milk.

No use levels are provided for sodium or choline orotate. For the other orotate sources, there is a large difference concerning the daily doses proposed by the petitioners: 1.8 - 6206 mg/day. Largest exposures to orotate from an orotate source would result from the proposed uses for calcium and magnesium orotate, providing the amount of 800 mg calcium/day (equivalent to 6.2 g orotate or about 100 mg/kg bw/day), and magnesium of 250 mg/day (equivalent to 3.2 g orotate/day or 53 mg/kg bw/day). For consumers who would consume several nutrients with orotates as source, the total anticipated combined exposure would amount over 11 g/day.

Orotic acid is synthesised in situ from carbamoyl phosphate and aspartic acid through dihydroorotic acid. Orotic acid is then transformed to orotidin-5’-phosphate and further to uridine-5’-monophosphate. When there is insufficient capacity for detoxifying the load of ammonia presented for urea synthesis, carbamoyl phosphate leaves the mitochondria and enters the pyrimidine pathway, where orotic acid biosynthesis is stimulated; orotic acid excretion in urine then increases. Orotic acid synthesis is abnormally high in hereditary deficiencies of urea-cycle enzymes or uridine monophosphate synthase.

Little documentation on the bioavailability of the mineral salts of orotic acid has been submitted, but one study reveals that the bioavailability of zinc from zinc orotate is comparable to that of zinc from another organic source, as well as an inorganic salt. The Panel concludes that this will probably also be the case for the bioavailability of the cations from the other orotate salts, for which no documentation has been supplied.
The petitioners have submitted only few data concerning the toxicity of orotic acid and none on the salts. Orotic acid has a low acute toxicity. In repeated doses orotic acid induces fatty livers in the rat, but not in other species tested. No data were submitted on reproductive and developmental toxicity and only irrelevant data on genotoxicity.

Several studies have shown that repeated dosing of orotic acid to rats and some other species promotes the formation of tumours initiated by various known carcinogenic substances. The usual concentration to promote tumours has been 1 % in the diet, but also 0.5 and 0.2 % in the diet has been shown to have promoting effect, while 0.1 % in the diet did not have effect within the time span tested (up to 20 weeks). A No Observed Adverse Effect Level for this effect can thus be determined to be 50 mg/kg bw/day, while the Lowest Observed Effect Level is 100 mg/kg bw/day.

In a long-term feeding study in rats, 1 % orotic acid in the diet without any initiation, increased the frequency of tumours likely due to a promoting effect of orotic acid on spontaneously arising and/or diet induced altered cells.

The Panel considers that it is not appropriate to conclude on the safety for a combination between chromium and a tumour promoter as long as it is not clear whether chromium is genotoxic or not.

The Panel concludes that in the light of the tumour-promoting effect of orotic acid in animal experimentation, the small margin of safety to this effect from foreseeable exposure, and the absence of any relevant studies on genotoxicity and of any developmental studies, the use of orotate as a source of the eight other minerals and choline at the proposed levels of use is of safety concern.

Published: 28 July 2009

[meursault]

Perhaps this should be of concern to those that take lithium orotate, too.

[nameless]

Interesting about the orotates... guess our concern isn't the only one. Nobody evidently gets anywhere near the equivalent dosage of orotic acid via diet, unless they guzzle down 30+ liters of milk daily.

My interest in mag orotate primarily was due to Nieper and the Russian cardiomyopathy studies. Although Nieper did delve a bit into what some considered quackery too, so I don't know how reliable his data is.

I'm currently just using mag glycinate, and not so sure I'm going to try the orotates again. Mag taurate could be promising, although it's a pain to find. Cardiovascular Research makes one, but it upset my stomach when I tried it (not sure if it's due to the taurine or fillers, or whatever). I'm not sure if anyone else makes it, besides maybe AOR.

[mammalspod]

I run a mild Mg deficiency and I used to work at a supplement store so I've tried lots of different Mg supplements. The one that produced the most notable difference was malate. The difference I noticed was much more energy and a better mood. I noticed no significant diarrhea on glycinate and malate but did on oxide and especially citrate.

[pycnogenol]

I was taking the Source Naturals brand but now I'm taking the Bluebonnet Nutrition brand of magnesium glycinate (Albion).