302 replies to this topic

[nameless]

i use albion glycinate, which is imo the best... cheap and has a fair amount of HUMAN studies behind it. orotate is good but way too expensive from reputable manufacturers
http://www.albion-an...ter/2003Oct.pdf

i try to get all my minerals from albion if possible... they are at the top of supplemental mineral science imo. top notch quality, great r&d and HUMAN studies on all their minerals.

vitacost has carlson chelated magnesium which is albion glycinate, at 17$ for 180 tabs @ 200mg each

I like Albion Mag too. I think you originally suggested it to me actually, a while ago here.

I sometimes get the Carlson one, but the tablets are a little large to swallow easily. I've recently have been using a mag albion from AMNI (Douglas Labs) which can be found at vitamin shoppe for $10/100 tablets. It is a glycinate/lysine chelate, primarily glycinate. The tablets are a little smaller than the Carlson brand, but they still have 200mg each. It might be a good option for those who tend to choke on pills.

And I see iherb now carries Bluebonnet, and they have a mag albion, for $10/90 vcaps. Would capsules offer better absorption as compared to tablets?

[niner]

Magnesium orotate is 334.6 gm/m, Mg = 24.3 gm/m, so 1.5 gm magnesium orotate contains 109mg of elemental magnesium. If you figure that some of the tablet is taken up by binders or other tabletting stuff, it looks like the KAL Mag orotate is the real thing. I'm not sure how they do it that cheaply, but tabletting is not that expensive.

It does sound like it's the real thing. If you said the tablets were really small, I'd wonder, but at 1.5 grams each, it sounds right. I now wonder how high a markup AOR is charging, at about 3x the price as the KAL mag orotate. They are probably making a nice profit there.

AOR is good, but everything they make is insanely expensive.

[mike250]

that KAL is cheap for an orotate. maybe its just a scam

[quarter]

I use bulk Magnesium Orotate from here , (I'm in the UK) it doesn't seem too expensive. But I cannot vouch for the quality, subjectively I sleep a lot better with it. I've tried AOR's Cardio-Mag-2.0 and subjectively felt less of an effect.

Similar to Yoyo, I have used high does of Natural Calm (Mag Citrate) before and never experienced a laxative effect.

[mikeinnaples]

i've never noticed a laxative effect of magnesium citrate.

Lucky you .....I get above a 400mg yield on it and I am forced to either pop a handful of immodium or face 12 hours off an on the toilet.

I am still confused about the mag/calc yeilds stated in IP6 though.

[ajnast4r]

i use albion glycinate, which is imo the best... cheap and has a fair amount of HUMAN studies behind it. orotate is good but way too expensive from reputable manufacturers
http://www.albion-an...ter/2003Oct.pdf

i try to get all my minerals from albion if possible... they are at the top of supplemental mineral science imo. top notch quality, great r&d and HUMAN studies on all their minerals.

vitacost has carlson chelated magnesium which is albion glycinate, at 17$ for 180 tabs @ 200mg each

I like Albion Mag too. I think you originally suggested it to me actually, a while ago here.

I sometimes get the Carlson one, but the tablets are a little large to swallow easily. I've recently have been using a mag albion from AMNI (Douglas Labs) which can be found at vitamin shoppe for $10/100 tablets. It is a glycinate/lysine chelate, primarily glycinate. The tablets are a little smaller than the Carlson brand, but they still have 200mg each. It might be a good option for those who tend to choke on pills.

And I see iherb now carries Bluebonnet, and they have a mag albion, for $10/90 vcaps. Would capsules offer better absorption as compared to tablets?

solgar chelated mag is albion glycinate in small 100mg pills and is pretty cheap. and theres no difference between tablets and capsules.

[javyn]

Sorry for all the questions, but since I pulled the trigger on a pound of citrate powder, I'm just curious, what dose to you guys recommend to keep the laxative effect at bay as much as possible yet enough to help with sleep and depression?

I am using OO caps btw. I was thinking of starting with two of them for the first night.

[nameless]

Sorry for all the questions, but since I pulled the trigger on a pound of citrate powder, I'm just curious, what dose to you guys recommend to keep the laxative effect at bay as much as possible yet enough to help with sleep and depression?

I am using OO caps btw. I was thinking of starting with two of them for the first night.

Your best bet is to start of with a low dosage, then work your way up... and see how it goes. I've tried mag citrate before and it never caused me any laxative problems (with reasonable doses). If you want to take higher amounts of mag (gram+) split it up and maybe take it with meals?

[javyn]

Really I just want a dose that will help me sleep well and make me feel great in the morning the way a night-time epsom salt bath does. I don't mind the laxative effect, but being that I take lots of chlorella and vitamin c daily, I don't want to overdo it with vitamins and minerals that also act as laxatives.

Also, I got a bottle of 1,000IU D3. Should this be taken with magnesium? I keep reading conflicting things on google, some say yes you should take D3 with mag, some say D inhibits absorption of mag, some say take B6 with mag to help its absorption. Wow.

[flatline]

the best form that I know of is liquid magnesium citrate. Floradix makes a highly bioavailable fruit extract. I find it practically psychotropic, as it seems to calm me down. This is opposed to some of the other forms (gluconate? glycinate?), which I have heard have some neuroexcitatory properties.

[chicha]

i use albion glycinate, which is imo the best... cheap and has a fair amount of HUMAN studies behind it. orotate is good but way too expensive from reputable manufacturers
http://www.albion-an...ter/2003Oct.pdf

i try to get all my minerals from albion if possible... they are at the top of supplemental mineral science imo. top notch quality, great r&d and HUMAN studies on all their minerals.

vitacost has carlson chelated magnesium which is albion glycinate, at 17$ for 180 tabs @ 200mg each

I like Albion Mag too. I think you originally suggested it to me actually, a while ago here.

I sometimes get the Carlson one, but the tablets are a little large to swallow easily. I've recently have been using a mag albion from AMNI (Douglas Labs) which can be found at vitamin shoppe for $10/100 tablets. It is a glycinate/lysine chelate, primarily glycinate. The tablets are a little smaller than the Carlson brand, but they still have 200mg each. It might be a good option for those who tend to choke on pills.

And I see iherb now carries Bluebonnet, and they have a mag albion, for $10/90 vcaps. Would capsules offer better absorption as compared to tablets?

The Supplement Facts label for the Bluebonnet magnesium says that it is "buffered magnesium glycinate chelate". Kirkman Labs, as well, sells a "buffered magnesium glycinate". According to a communication I had with them, certain physicians had asked that they formulate a buffered magnesium glycinate product for their autistic patients due to those patients having insufficient digestive acidity. They also sell a (regular) magnesium glycinate hypoallergenic capsule which is more alkaline.

The pH of mineral supplements is not often made known. From what I understand, the mineral citrates and mineral lactates have a pH below 7. The mineral carbonates and mineral oxides are alkaline. From my comunication with Kirkman Labs, the mineral glycinates (and mineral lysinates) have a pH above 7. (In the case of the mineral lysinates, a good bit above 7.)

Does anyone know the pH of magnesium orotate and calcium orotate?

[chicha]

Maybe I can get some feedback on this issue, as well:

I notice that both magnesium and calcium tend to be sedating (carbonate and oxide forms; can't definitively say about other forms.). Calcium may be more of the culprit, as "sedation" occurs most definitely with dairy products which have little magnesium in relation to calcium. This must be a common human phenomenon as it was remarked upon in a book written over three hundred years ago entitled "The Anatomy of Melancholy" by a Richard Burton(?). Maybe it's an allergic reation, a serotonin issue. Whatever. I've been thinking about experimenting with calcium and magnesium aspartates, though. The reason being that aspartate and glutamate are considered two of the principal "excitatory" substances in the human brain.

Does anyone know the pH of mineral aspartates, in general, or use aspartates?

Thanks.

[unbreakable]

Best form of supplemental magnesium?

In case of heart disease it is definitively Magnesium Orotate.

Edited by unbreakable, 15 June 2008 - 11:46 AM.

[nameless]

The Supplement Facts label for the Bluebonnet magnesium says that it is "buffered magnesium glycinate chelate". Kirkman Labs, as well, sells a "buffered magnesium glycinate". According to a communication I had with them, certain physicians had asked that they formulate a buffered magnesium glycinate product for their autistic patients due to those patients having insufficient digestive acidity. They also sell a (regular) magnesium glycinate hypoallergenic capsule which is more alkaline.

The pH of mineral supplements is not often made known. From what I understand, the mineral citrates and mineral lactates have a pH below 7. The mineral carbonates and mineral oxides are alkaline. From my comunication with Kirkman Labs, the mineral glycinates (and mineral lysinates) have a pH above 7. (In the case of the mineral lysinates, a good bit above 7.)
?

This is interesting, as I never considered the pH level of mineral supplements before. I've been having stomach issues (acid reflux), so perhaps supplementing with a buffered magnesium glycinate, would be worse for me than normal mag glycinate? I assumed buffered meant it would be gentler on the stomach, less acidic.

[Ironman]

Save your money on all the magnesium pills and just mix some of your own:

2 litre bottle of club soda/sparkling water/carbonated water.
3 tablespoons Milk of Magnesia (Mg hydroxide)

Add the MoM to the bottle. Shake it up. Wait till it clarifies again and voila! You've now got 1200 mg magnesium bicarbonate. Man made mineral water. Very cheap and very absorbable. Also puts out ulcer and reflux fires like that.

[unbreakable]

The question is, is it due to better magnesium utilization or to the orotate counterion itself?

It's primary the orotate itself.

[chicha]

The question is, is it due to better magnesium utilization or to the orotate counterion itself?

It's primary the orotate itself.

So along with our ascorbic acid and folic acid and salicylic
acid and nicotinic acid, perhaps we need orotic acid, too? I sometimes wonder whether it all boils down to just acid and base - whatever acid, whatever base, just so the pH requirement is met for the human body at that particular moment in time.

[unbreakable]

Orotic acid helps to fixate Magnesium-ions in the cell and so stabilises ATP-levels, this makes it cardioprotective.

[wayside]

Save your money on all the magnesium pills and just mix some of your own:

2 litre bottle of club soda/sparkling water/carbonated water.
3 tablespoons Milk of Magnesia (Mg hydroxide)

Add the MoM to the bottle. Shake it up. Wait till it clarifies again and voila! You've now got 1200 mg magnesium bicarbonate. Man made mineral water. Very cheap and very absorbable. Also puts out ulcer and reflux fires like that.

I don't think this saves a whole lot (if any) money.

If I read the label and did the math right, 1 tbsp of MoM contains 1200 mg of Mg(OH)2. This is around 500 mg of Mg. A $2.00 12 ounce bottle contains 24 servings, or a total of 12 gm of Mg in the bottle. That works out to around 17 cents per gram, not counting the cost of the club soda. If you are buying the club soda ($1.00 for a two liter bottle?) and putting only 1.5 gms of Mg in it, you are adding another 67 cents per gram of Mg.

I think there are lots of Mg supps, if not most of them, that can be had for $0.83 per gm or less. Even if you are getting the club soda for free, I think lots of Mg supps are less than $0.17 per gram, and don't have the hassle of mixing or drinking.

From what I have read, absorption of the bicarbonate form is down there with the oxide form.

So what is the advantage of this method?

[chicha]

Orotic acid helps to fixate Magnesium-ions in the cell and so stabilises ATP-levels, this makes it cardioprotective.

How about this form of magnesium: "Ionic Magnesium - the form most widely recognized by the body". http://www.needs.com...de=TRM-5016-002

Edited by chicha, 19 June 2008 - 07:10 PM.

[niner]

Orotic acid helps to fixate Magnesium-ions in the cell and so stabilises ATP-levels, this makes it cardioprotective.

How about this form of magnesium: "Ionic Magnesium - the form most widely recognized by the body". http://www.needs.com...de=TRM-5016-002

It's just magnesium chloride. It tastes terrible, but does come in a cool blue glass bottle. You could probably eat a mag chloride snow melter for a lot less money. "most widely recognised"... sheesh.

[niner]

The question is, is it due to better magnesium utilization or to the orotate counterion itself?

It's primary the orotate itself.

So along with our ascorbic acid and folic acid and salicylic acid and nicotinic acid, perhaps we need orotic acid, too? I sometimes wonder whether it all boils down to just acid and base - whatever acid, whatever base, just so the pH requirement is met for the human body at that particular moment in time.

No. The chemical form of all of these is extremely important. Otherwise you could just drink vinegar and everything would be great. You aren't getting enough of any of these for the acid functionality to make much difference, with the possible exception of high dose Vit. C. The orotate isn't even in the acid form. Orotate is actually a weak base. These things can be confusing. The drug that everyone calls "acid", LSD, is actually not an acid. It's an amide.

[chicha]

Orotic acid helps to fixate Magnesium-ions in the cell and so stabilises ATP-levels, this makes it cardioprotective.

How about this form of magnesium: "Ionic Magnesium - the form most widely recognized by the body". http://www.needs.com...de=TRM-5016-002

It's just magnesium chloride. It tastes terrible, but does come in a cool blue glass bottle. You could probably eat a mag chloride snow melter for a lot less money. "most widely recognised"... sheesh.

How about this one? From the product description:
"Magnesium is absorbed into the body only after it is ionized by the hydrochloric acid (HCL) made in the stomach."
http://www.needs.com...de=PEL-5003-006

So the statement earlier in this thread that "Orotic acid helps to fixate Magnesium-ions in the cell...." by Unbreakable would be a reference to orotic acid substituting for maybe insufficient levels of HCL in the gut? Or does this "fixation" occur after absorption?


And this: "Unlike other formulations, the magnesium in Mag Glycinate:
*is absorbed via a mechanism similar to that used by amino acids and unlike typical mineral ion absorption.
*is not dependent on stomach acidity for absorption."
http://www.needs.com...de=MET-6050-120

I, myself, am leaning towards (trying) a bisglycinate amino acid chelate - for reasons of aborption and pH. I was astonished to find out that calcium bisglycinate3 (amino acid chelate) capsules, at least the ones sold by Kirkman Labs, have a pH of 11.5! I tend to think of amino acids as being overwhelmingly2 acidic for some reason. That is not the case.

Arginine, popularized by Durk Pearson, and lysine are naturally quite alkaline. http://en.wikipedia....ard_amino_acids [As to how one can combine two bases, say, magnesium and the amino acid lysine - well, that's a mystery to me.]

Note 2 - Maybe because I associate amino acids with protein and the PRAL (potential renal acid load) of protein has a value of .4888 (acidic) in the equation of Remer and Manz. Remer and Manz, J. Am Diet Assoc. 95: 791-797, 1995 http://linkinghub.el...002822395002197

Note 3 - The following chart published by Albion® shows the absorption
percentages of different calcium sources (I'm guessing equivalent magnesium souces would be similar):

Source % Absorption
Carbonate 23
Citrate 25
Milk 27
Hydroxiapatite 17
Bis-glycinate chelate 44

Reference:
1. Heaney RP, Recher RR, Weaver CM. "Absorbability of calcium sources:
the limited role of solubility," Calcif Tissue Int. 46:300-304, 1990.

Edited by chicha, 20 June 2008 - 08:46 AM.

[krillin]

How orotates work

[k10]

The best form of magnesium is magnesium taurate. It is magnesium chelated to taurine. Both have sedative effects, and are neuroprotective. I buy the one made by cardiovascular research. I used to use magnesium oxide -- just caused diahrea and I found out as little as 1% of it gets absorbed! Then I moved on to citrate, same thing. Magnesium Taurate causes no gastrointestinal upset. I've read magnesium glycinate is a cheap option too though.

Magnesium taurate is favored by most though, from what I have read.

Edited by k10, 22 June 2008 - 05:28 AM.

[chicha]

How orotates work

From the article: "We begin with the fact that the orotate salts are electrically neutral...." Is that the same as pH neutral? And is "isoelectric point" and pH one and the same? Thanks.

[krillin]

How orotates work

From the article: "We begin with the fact that the orotate salts are electrically neutral...." Is that the same as pH neutral? And is "isoelectric point" and pH one and the same? Thanks.

"Electrically neutral" means it has neither positive nor negative electric charge. In other words the mag orotate isn't dissociated into magnesium and orotate ions. (You can verify this by trying in vain to mix some in water.)

The isoelectric point is a pH.

[nameless]

Anyone ever hear of Magnesium 2-AEP? It's one of Nieper's magnesium salts, using 2-aminoethylphosphonic acid. Any studies on it out there?

And what is the opinion of KAL (as a company)? Are they reliable, supplements free from contamination and such? That cheap magnesium orotate is very tempting, but I'm not sure of the source. KAL is part of Nutraceutical, who also make Solaray products. I assume they are basically the same thing, just with different labeling.

Edited by nameless, 24 June 2008 - 07:35 PM.

[chicha]

Anyone ever hear of Magnesium 2-AEP? It's one of Nieper's magnesium salts, using 2-aminoethylphosphonic acid. Any studies on it out there?

And what is the opinion of KAL (as a company)? Are they reliable, supplements free from contamination and such? That cheap magnesium orotate is very tempting, but I'm not sure of the source. KAL is part of Nutraceutical, who also make Solaray products. I assume they are basically the same thing, just with different labeling.

I tend to associate KAL with tablets. Though, years ago I used their dolomite powder. I've used their betaine hydrochloride tablets in the past. Recently, I purchased that product again - after not using it for a number of years. The tablet appeared to be bigger than before. And yesterday, I noticed moisture in the bottle - on each tablet. Apparently, betaine is hygroscopic. I may buy this item in capsules next time.

Some companies are sticklers on the issue of tablets versus capsules and don't tablet any of their products. I prefer capsules myself. But finding orotates and Albion chelates in capsule form requires a lot of searching around. Kirkman Labs encapsulates magnesium glycinate and calcium bisglycinate. ProThera does a magnesium glycinate/lysinate capsule. The latter doesn't sell to the public and the former has a very restricted distributor network. Bluebonnet has a magnesium bisglycinate Vcap.
Solaray has a calcium bisglycinate Vcap at 250 mg each. I may have to go with regular tablets, though, because there's a greater selection to choose from (in terms of milligrams per tablet) - maybe Carlson.

Edited by chicha, 24 June 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[nameless]

I prefer capsules myself. But finding orotates and Albion chelates in capsule form requires a lot of searching around. Kirkman Labs encapsulates magnesium glycinate and calcium bisglycinate. ProThera does a magnesium glycinate/lysinate capsule. The latter doesn't sell to the public and the former has a very restricted distributor network. Bluebonnet has a magnesium bisglycinate Vcap.
Solaray has a calcium bisglycinate Vcap at 250 mg each. I may have to go with regular tablets, though, because there's a greater selection to choose from (in terms of milligrams per tablet) - maybe Carlson.

If you prefer capsules, you can just get the bluebonnet vcap with mag glycinate. Iherb offers it, relatively cheap. Same dosage as the Carlson brand... same Albion chelate.

Although I do notice that the Bluebonnet brand states it is buffered mag glycinate. But I do not see any other ingredients listed, so no idea what that means exactly or if they buffered it with something else. Could very well just be marketing-speak, and they consider glycinate a form of buffering.