302 replies to this topic

[nameless]

AOR Cardio-Mag 2.0
I suppose the benefits outweighs the risks in this situation.

Research - http://www.aor.ca/pr...0/#research_tab

Whether it's worth the risk or not, I can't say.

I have cardiomyopathy and originally tried Cardio-Mag for a while, years ago. I didn't see any difference in ejection fraction when using it myself. Ubiquinol may make a difference, however.

[zenman]

Hi nameless,

Did you check your blood serum Mg level?
If so, did Cardio-Mag raise the Mg level?
Did you use the recommended dosage of 4 capsules or smaller dose?
What are you using now? Has it changed the Mg reading in your bloodtest?

I've just replaced the daily dose of one NCI Mg Orotate 500mg with just 1 capsule of Cardio-Mag which is 770mg.
The bloodtest on 25th Feb will show where the Mg level will be.

Thanks

[niner]

I've just replaced the daily dose of one NCI Mg Orotate 500mg with just 1 capsule of Cardio-Mag which is 770mg.

I believe that the NCI orotate 500mg weight is based on the whole molecule (magnesium plus orotate (which is heavy) plus waters of hydration), rather than elemental magnesium like most people use. Thus, the magnesium dose isn't very high; probably less than 100 mg. If you really want to raise magnesium levels, I'd use something with more Mg. Mg oxide is actually not a bad choice, contrary to deeply entrenched internet mythology.

Edit: typos.

Edited by niner, 17 February 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[nameless]

Hi nameless,

Did you check your blood serum Mg level?
If so, did Cardio-Mag raise the Mg level?
Did you use the recommended dosage of 4 capsules or smaller dose?
What are you using now? Has it changed the Mg reading in your bloodtest?

I've just replaced the daily dose of one NCI Mg Orotate 500mg with just 1 capsule of Cardio-Mag which is 770mg.
The bloodtest on 25th Feb will show where the Mg level will be.

Thanks

It's been years since I've had a mag RBC done, but I recall it being at the higher end of normal range (whatever that is), after supplementing magnesium. But I am pretty sure it wasn't mag orotate I was taking at the time .... if I had to guess, it was mag glycinate.

And when I took cardiomag, I took 4 caps, which is a pretty dinky dose of magnesium overall, at 200mg daily. Well... dinky for the cost involved, I should say. Cardio Mag is only 50 mg elemental per capsule, so I wouldn't expect your bloodtest to really show a whole lot of movement there.

As for what I am using now, I have a bottle of MagOx and a bottle of Jigsaw magnesium. Both were pretty cheap... the latter I just got out of curiosity as it's slow release... trial size w/coupon made it inexpensive enough to try. I also don't take a whole lot of mag anymore, maybe 125mg daily or so.

If you have a heart issue and want to improve your heart strength, I recommend ubiquinol and follow up with cardiac mris or echos, to see if it makes any difference. And if you want to increase your mag serum levels, I expect you'll need more than 50mg daily.

[zenman]

Hi nameless & niner,

Thanks for the info.
The Mg serum level before supplementation was 0.6 which is below the the reference range of 0.7-1.0.
A daily dose of NCI 500mg Mg Orotate raised the Mg level to 0.9.

The recent serum test showed a small decline to 0.8 which coincided with the quality issues (no expiry date, unsealed bottles etc)
and no response for my emails from NCI made the company really suspect!

I will know how efficacious 700mg AOR CardioMag at the next bloodtest

Edited by zenman, 17 February 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[stephen_b]

I got some of the Jigsaw magnesium in the mail today. It's actually Albion's di-magnesium malate with Jigsaw's time release preparation. I'll report on how it affects my sensitive GI tract after a while. I like its ingredients, including B6 as P5P and folate as quatrefolic.

[nameless]

Hi nameless & niner,

Thanks for the info.
The Mg serum level before supplementation was 0.6 which is below the the reference range of 0.7-1.0.
A daily dose of NCI 500mg Mg Orotate raised the Mg level to 0.9.

The recent serum test showed a small decline to 0.8 which coincided with the quality issues (no expiry date, unsealed bottles etc)
and no response for my emails from NCI made the company really suspect!

I will know how efficacious 700mg AOR CardioMag at the next bloodtest

Just so you are aware, 500mg of Mag Orotate doesn't equate to 500mg of elemental magnesium. The Cardio Mag you are taking has 770mg of Mag Orotate, yet only 50mg of it is elemental.

I'm not going to say it can't affect your mag levels at all, but it's not exactly a huge amount there. The changes in your previous test could easily have been explained by test variation or simple differences in daily mag intake via diet.

And is that a Mag serum test you had, or a Mag RBC? Regular Mag serum tests are sort of worthless... unless it shows an insane deficiency or something.

[zenman]

Thanks nameless for the valuable info about Mg serum test. I wasnt aware of this. I googled for more info & I was surprised to learn that Mag Serum (plasma) test is merely indicative, so only a red cell Mg test is the Gold standard.
http://barttersite.o...ium-deficiency/
I would need to request for a RBC Mg.

NCI (based on Hans A. Nieper's research on Mg Orotate) recommends 1000mg of Mg Orotate (<50 yrs age) & 2000mg of Mg Orotate (>50 yrs age). The latter is probably not even equivalent to 500mg of elemental magnesium.

The 500mg of Mg Orotate seem to raise the plasma/serum Mg level, so I would assume, the RBC Mg would rise somewhat too.
I am supplementing Mg Orotate for my mom who has CHF, CKF, diabetes and anemia on the basis that most people are quite insufficient in Mg so a low dose intake would unlikely create Mg O/D. I rather err on the side of precaution.

Edited by zenman, 19 February 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Climactic]

I am supplementing Mg Orotate for my mom who has CHF, CKF, diabetes and anemia

Magnesium orotate is not a panacea. If she is deficient, maybe you can give her just enough magnesium to get her intracellular magnesium to optimal but safe levels.

I rather err on the side of precaution.

Do you? Then why would you give a mutagen to your mother?

Edited by Climactic, 19 February 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[triffid113]

I would (and do) take citrate for this reason: CITRATE IS TIED TO LESS CHANCE OF STONES. A lot of people get kidney stones and have a devil of a time avoiding getting them. There is evidence that if you have enough citrate in your system you won't get stones. I take a cal mag citrate supplement 1:1 ratio and the reason is that when I switched to asporatate I could somehow detect the difference...it felt vaguely not as friendly to me, not regarding the cal or the mag, but that the citrate gave me something extra, not in the other form. I now believe that 'something extra' is the citrate and the reason I never get stones.

My father was a dialysis patient and his doc would not let hm take more than 500mg C because it causes stones. Think about what YOU take and eat (many healthy things with oxalates) and decide whether you might want that citrate protection.

Edited by triffid113, 20 February 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[Climactic]

I would (and do) take citrate for this reason: CITRATE IS TIED TO LESS CHANCE OF STONES.

Yes, this is why I take mag citrate in the morning and mag glycinate at night. I also take potassium citrate both times for the extra citrate. Vitamin B6 is tied to fewer stones too. It's easy to test each of these things by their impact on baseline urine ph. As for vitamin C, I typically take only 250 mg twice daily to avoid stones. Let's not forger water intake which is #1.

Edited by Climactic, 20 February 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[nameless]

The only issue with citrate is the potential for increased aluminum absorption. You can look at pubmed for cal citrate studies on this. However, if you have good kidneys and don't consume aluminum-related foods (like aluminum based antacids) at the same time, one should be safe.

The studies on this are a bit mixed ... some show an increase in aluminum absorption, some don't. But I wouldn't go super crazy with citrate dosages, just to be safe.

[renfr]

The only issue with citrate is the potential for increased aluminum absorption. You can look at pubmed for cal citrate studies on this. However, if you have good kidneys and don't consume aluminum-related foods (like aluminum based antacids) at the same time, one should be safe.

The studies on this are a bit mixed ... some show an increase in aluminum absorption, some don't. But I wouldn't go super crazy with citrate dosages, just to be safe.

well if that is so then magnesium citrate is a natural antiacid, no need to use antiacids besides of magnesium citrate.
or take foods with malic acid.

[nameless]

well if that is so then magnesium citrate is a natural antiacid, no need to use antiacids besides of magnesium citrate.
or take foods with malic acid.

Yep, possibly. I just mentioned the citrate/aluminum thing in case anyone here was taking really high doses of citrate, especially if they had a kidney issue or were taking aluminum based antacids. There is also the possibility of aluminum from food too.

I would also suggest it probably isn't wise to take aluminum based antacids regardless of citrate intake.

[Climactic]

well if that is so then magnesium citrate is a natural antiacid, no need to use antiacids besides of magnesium citrate.

What nonsense is this. Magnesium citrate is not an antacid. An antacid is an alkaline substance that reacts with the acid in the stomach to neutralize the acidity. Magnesium citrate, if anything, is a salt of magnesium with citric acid. Its effect on urine and stones are independent matters. Next time please be careful and check spelling too. Carbonates and hydroxides are antacids, not citrates.

Edited by Climactic, 20 February 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[renfr]

well if that is so then magnesium citrate is a natural antiacid, no need to use antiacids besides of magnesium citrate.

What nonsense is this. Magnesium citrate is not an antacid. An antacid is an alkaline substance that reacts with the acid in the stomach to neutralize the acidity. Magnesium citrate, if anything, is a salt of magnesium with citric acid. Its effect on urine and stones are independent matters. Next time please be careful and check spelling too.

It is indirectly an antiacid as citric acid increases aluminium absorption. The active substance of most of antiacids is aluminium.

[Climactic]

It is indirectly an antiacid as citric acid increases aluminium absorption. The active substance of most of antiacids is aluminium.

Dude get a reality check. The active substance of aluminum based antacids is not aluminum - it is carbonate or hydroxide, coming from aluminum carbonate or aluminum hydroxide. Jeez. An antacid's intended place of action is in the stomach and esophagus, and nowhere else.

Edited by Climactic, 20 February 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[renfr]

The active substance of aluminum based antacids is not aluminum

Mind = blown

[Climactic]

The active substance of aluminum based antacids is not aluminum

Mind = blown

To be fair, aluminum carbonate and aluminum hydroxide may have other applications that are not antacid related, such as hyperphosphatemia, but as I understand, this application has nothing to do with the role of an antacid.

Edited by Climactic, 20 February 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[niner]

It's true that aluminum is not the active substance in aluminum based antacids. If that were true, then aluminum chloride would be an antacid, but when you dissolve aluminum chloride in neutral water, it turns acidic. Excess hydrogen ions (protons) define the acidic state in water; It's the hydroxide that reacts with these to neutralize acids.

[nameless]

Thread took a strange turn there with the aluminum-antacid stuff. Magnesium in theory could work as an antacid in some, so hence less a need for aluminum based antacids -- although I think that would apply more for the oxide and carbonate forms.

Anyway, my message was to not overdo the citrates and chew on aluminum cans at the same time... that sort of thing.

[Luminosity]

Since there are so many braniacs here, what form of B6 do you recommend and why? What forms do you not recommend?

[triffid113]

(1) I NEVER take antacids. If I think I have an acidity issue I take Slippery Elm
(2) I take 2g mineral ascorbates / day and have done so for 30+ years, no stones (due to citrate?)
(3) I have taken 3x daily dose of cal/mag citrate during PMS for 20+ years, no stones (citrate?)
(Please be aware I have the VDR polymorphism so I always craved and needed high dose calcium)

Best form of B6 is P5P. I would not even take B6 as it causes neuropathy at some doses. It does
not protect your kidneys from glycation, whereas P5P inhibits glycation. P5P could save many lives from
kidney disease. Which is far more common than young people seem to think. See: http://www.lef.org/p...y=P5P glycation

[Luminosity]

Thanks. Any specific brands and sources of P5P?

[simplify]

I have some information from Bluebonnet, which sheds some light on a couple things we were discussing. Their Mg Glycinate is the buffered glycinate chelate that so many companies use in their supplements. I asked them about Albion's assertion, quoted above, that all buffered forms of the chelate include Mg Oxide. I asked if their stated 200 mg of elemental Mg would therefore be partly from Mg Oxide. Here's what they said:

"Yes, the Albion Chelated magnesium has to start with the base of magnesium which is oxide in order to properly be bound to the glycine, all other forms are salts of magnesium (citrate, aspartate etc.) and would not work. The end product is magnesium bisglycine which means the mg oxide (50%) is bound to 2 molecules of glycine the smallest amino acid derived from rice. The 200 mg elemental magnesium is 50/50 oxide/glycine."

I'm in the process of asking Albion to confirm this, and to confirm that the glycinate/lysinate chelate (used by Doctors Best) does not derive any part of its elemental Mg yield from the oxide form. I've read all the information I can find on their site, and also the impressively detailed description on the Doctors Best site (which can be found here in the form of a pdf): http://www.drbvitami...3/factsheet.pdf

I finally got a reply directly from Albion regarding their buffered vs. non-buffered chelates which are used in so many products.

"Some people that need to take supplements may have very sensitive GI tracts where even a bisglycinate chelate may cause some GI distress. To help with this sensitivity we add mg oxide to the formulation to bring down the pH factor of the supplement to help with sensitivities which is why it is called buffered. If sensitivity is not an issue then our Mg Lycinate Glycinate Chelate would be a great option and yes the stated elemental amount in that product would be from the lycinate glycinate chelate."

In short, Bluebonnet's reply (quoted above) is correct (50% of the elemental Mg is from oxide in the buffered forms), and Doctor's Best's claims about their NON-buffered chelate are also correct (100% of stated elemental Mg is from chelate, not oxide).

We can each make our own decisions about what form we want to take. The important thing is to know that we're getting what we think we're paying for in any supplement we buy.

[Dolph]

http://suppversity.b...ch-form-is.html

[albedo]

I am quite lost with all the Mg forms described here. Is there someone here who can comment on the form i am taking?
1 sachet (5 g) contains as active substance:

• Magnesium citrate (calc. anhydrous) 1830 mg
• Magnesium content: 12 mmol = 24 mEq = 295.7 mg

http://diasporal.de/...temid=5&lang=en
While I am not sure what is the "best form" the above formula was prescribed by my doc (and reimbursed by insurance) and worked fine to bring withing the ref. range my RBC value. I take it in the evening after dinner.

[triffid113]

I am quite lost with all the Mg forms described here. Is there someone here who can comment on the form i am taking?
1 sachet (5 g) contains as active substance:

• Magnesium citrate (calc. anhydrous) 1830 mg
• Magnesium content: 12 mmol = 24 mEq = 295.7 mg

http://diasporal.de/...temid=5&lang=en
While I am not sure what is the "best form" the above formula was prescribed by my doc (and reimbursed by insurance) and worked fine to bring withing the ref. range my RBC value. I take it in the evening after dinner.

I want to caution you that it turns out that, like copper, serum and RBC magnesium are NOT indicative of magnesium in the tissues. If you have high blood pressure and lower it via diet and magnesium then you may have enough magnesium. If your heart rate is steady you may have enough magnesium. You may have enough magnesium if you pass a test like this: http://www.testcount...ml?product=1741

Here is the rationale: http://circ.ahajourn.../92/8/2190.full
http://www.jacn.org/.../23/6/732S.full
http://www.easy-immu...sium-level.html

I use magnesium citrate myself and like that it inhibits stone formation.

[mikela]

Are there any issues with taking Magnesium L-Threonate other than cost?

[Luminosity]

So far, the magnesium citrate capsules by Nutricology are agreeing with me fine, no laxative effect that I've noticed. I do take them with food instead of between meals as they had recommended. It's only been about ten days. I seem to feel calmer. I'm not feeling any arthritis or fibromyalgia from undigested minerals.