69 replies to this topic

[bgwithadd]

It definitely works, but it's so fucking expensive. You also need a higher dose to get much effect. I get some effect on 100mg but much more effect at higher doses.

It makes me socially feel like I am a lot more able to deal with people, which probably means it's helping with my ADD.

It works by increasing blood flow, especially between the brain hemispheres.

At vitaspace they sell pine bark extract by the kg so I might try that. There's some other stuff I might get there, too, but I don't want to order a dozen things and find out it's a crappy place.

[guy1985]

yes, agree with you that it is expensive.

[orangish]

Have you guys tried grapeseed extract? Does pinebark work better than that? For awhile, when I first started taking opc's (grapeseed), I noticed an increased ability to think through larger thoughts. Unfortunately, I could never hold these in my mind long enough to organize them, so as usual, I went about my disorganized, scattered self. But it's great to see that you've found success with pyc.!

[mentatpsi]

I know that you guys are talking about the $30 Pycnogenol that is distributed in New Jersey, but i've looked around and found much cheaper versions. I think the main issue with gauging success is the time necessary. I've read in an experiment regarding ADHD in children and pycnogenol, (taken at 1mg/kg) that it took a period of 1 month, and that discontinuation of supplementation removed the positive effects.

I wonder based on this how would one determine success rates in the $30 bottle as opposed to what i get (other than experimentation of course), because it seems silly to waste money if the results are the same.

Edited by mysticpsi, 15 January 2009 - 08:39 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Is there any difference in the OPC's in pine bark extract and grape seed extract? I've thought they were basically the same, and research suggests both provide similar benefits on cardiovascular health, ADD, etc. I hope someone will answer this definitively because grape seed extract is much, much cheaper.

[zocco]

Is Pycnogenol any similar to pine nut extract (PinnoThin)?

[nameless]

Is there any difference in the OPC's in pine bark extract and grape seed extract? I've thought they were basically the same, and research suggests both provide similar benefits on cardiovascular health, ADD, etc. I hope someone will answer this definitively because grape seed extract is much, much cheaper.

I'd like to know this too, but I'm not aware of any head-to-head studies. The benefits should be pretty similar, but there are some differences in the OPCs, so perhaps one would have some benefits not seen in the other. I've read that pine bark does not contain oligomers with odd numbers of gallate units and grape seed contains oligomers with both odd and even numbers. What this means exactly regarding health benefits? No idea...

I switched to grape seed due to cost -- I just purchased a year's supply of grape seed for what it'd cost me for a month's worth of pycnogenol. Only difference I can report is that my glycated hemoglobin was slightly lower on grape seed (as compared to when I tried pycnogenol), but that very well could have been a fluke or due to something else.

Edited by nameless, 16 January 2009 - 01:08 AM.

[bgwithadd]

I don't seem to get much effect from grape seed extract even when I take relatively large doses. Pine bark on the other hand makes a big, obvious difference. They seem like they have a similar method of action but I guess the pine bark has more effect on the actual brain. Maybe the grape seed extract can't cross the blood brain barrier or something. Maybe someone else has had better results with it, though.

[brain]

I don't seem to get much effect from grape seed extract even when I take relatively large doses. Pine bark on the other hand makes a big, obvious difference. They seem like they have a similar method of action but I guess the pine bark has more effect on the actual brain. Maybe the grape seed extract can't cross the blood brain barrier or something. Maybe someone else has had better results with it, though.

supposedly the pine bark extract caused a reduction of dopamine in the adhd study, which as far as i'm aware is paradoxical.

The treatment of ADHD children with Pyc caused decrease of dopamine (D) and trend of A and NA decrase and increased GSH/GSSG ratio. In conclusion, the data provide further evidence for the overactivity of the noradrenergic system in ADHD and demonstrate that A release may be increased, as well. Treatment of ADHD children with Pyc normalized catecholamine concentrations, leading to less hyperactivity, and, consequently, to reduced oxidative stress.

here is the complete abstract:

Urinary catecholamines in children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): modulation by a polyphenolic extract from pine bark (pycnogenol).
Dvoráková M, Jezová D, Blazícek P, Trebatická J, Skodácek I, Suba J, Iveta W, Rohdewald P, Duracková Z.

Department of Medical Chemistry, Biochemistry and Clinical Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, Comenius University, Bratislava, Slovak Republic. monika.dvorakova@fmed.uniba.sk

Our study tested the hypothesis that treatment with a potent polyphenol complex not only reduces hyperactivity of children, but also catecholamine excretion and oxidative stress. Urine catecholamine concentrations were measured in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) children and healthy controls. ADHD children received either placebo (PL) or Pycnogenol (Pyc), a bioflavonoid extract from the pine bark, for one month. The study was performed in a randomized, double-blind, PL controlled design. Concentrations of catecholamines were higher in urine of ADHD patients compared to those of healthy children. Moreover, noradrenaline (NA) concentrations positively correlated with degree of hyperactivity of ADHD children. In ADHD patients, adrenaline (A) and NA concentrations positively correlated with plasma levels of oxidized glutathione. The treatment of ADHD children with Pyc caused decrease of dopamine (D) and trend of A and NA decrase and increased GSH/GSSG ratio. In conclusion, the data provide further evidence for the overactivity of the noradrenergic system in ADHD and demonstrate that A release may be increased, as well. Treatment of ADHD children with Pyc normalized catecholamine concentrations, leading to less hyperactivity, and, consequently, to reduced oxid

i guess if it works, it works, though i myself am not too interested in reducing my dopamine levels, even if i may gain a net benefit that seems healthier. what do you guys think?

[bgwithadd]

Dopamine gets a lot of airtime when it comes to ADD, but to be honest when I supplement l-dopa I get virtualy zero improvement in symptoms. It's obvious there's more to it than just dopamine, though if you have broken dopamine transporters then all the dopamine int he world won't help, and amphetamine seems to reverse this issue in people who have it. SO...dopamine is involved in there somewhere but I don't think it's the main culprit in the direct sense of not having enough.

It would make sense I have high adrenaline because that seems to be the case. I have amazing reflexes for example, but at the same time if not reacting I am very slow to act without treatment. Lowering adrenaline would seem to be a treatment that would be helpful, especially in people taking a bunch of stims. The A and NA part is almost certainly NOT what's helping, and I'd not be surprised if it were part of the problem. Not to mention A and NA probably account for the majority of brain death when they degrade to cortisol.

I'd think that the vasodialation effects would be the best mechanism. I'm looking for more PDE4 inhibitors and maybe finding some other PDE inhibitors to see if that helps my symptoms any. At the least, it ought to help with the side effects of chronic stims. I can't fool myself into saying they are not serious any longer, though I seem to be finding ways to combat them....

[mentatpsi]

As i recall... there's some correlation with a dopamine receptor site (DRD2) as well a gene associated with the production of the receptor site that is unnatural and could have correlation to the formation of the mental ailment. It's interesting that the decreasing of dopamine within the brain could correlate with improved behavior in ADHD when part of the issue is a prefrontal cortex that is less active, which i believe is also associated with a low amount of dopamine, or as another poster had mentioned, a problem with the dopamine transport system.

I am however wondering if looking at it from the perspective that the decreasing in dopamine is the right one as to the solution, is it not possible that the decrease is merely a side effect of it targeting a system which compensates for the low amounts of dopamine and the brain merely accounts for the benefit by not producing as much dopamine into the system. In other words, fixing through other means. It would be interesting to see brain maps of Children/Adults taking Pycnogenol vs placebo and seeing which areas become more active.

What bothers me most is that psychological testing is so primitive to be looking at behavioral results, I would hope for more incorporation of brain imaging technologies and simulations of drug brain interactions in the near future. Though the article posted is a step .

As far as myself, i supplement with Ginseng, coffee, omega-3 and pycnogenol. I know it seems paradoxical as well given the increase in dopamine and norepinephrine with Ginseng and coffee while Pycnogenol has the opposite effect, but i've found it rather enjoyable.

I'm a bit confused however, in the article is it saying that norepinephrine increases in production?

Edited by mysticpsi, 19 January 2009 - 12:56 AM.

[bgwithadd]

Well, the general mechanism of action of pycnogenol should be that it increases blood flow to the areas of the brain, not its effects on neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are the main way we can affect the brain but the actual structure of the brain seems like it has to be more important.

[maverick_dw_04]

For whatever it's worth, I can say that I take 180 mg of both pycnogenol and grape seed extract daily, and I've never specifically noticed any cognitive enhancement from them. What I have noticed from them is probably a bit stronger immune system as well as some moderate positive effects against allergies.

Since the post specifically focused on verbal fluency, I should probably mention that I feel like I have a fairly high natural predisposition to verbal skills such as vocabulary, memorization, the complexities of grammatical rules, and what I would call the logic of conversation. For instance, I often find myself understanding what someone means when they word something in an odd way, and many times, when the statement is directed at someone other than me, if the person in question does not seem to understand what was said to him, I do a translation of sorts into something that is more easily understood. Do you understand that? Ha. Also, I studied Spanish for 4 years in high school, and although my grades were in the average range, it was due to my apathy towards school in general, and the fact that I simply didn't complete many assignments. However, much to my teacher's chagrin, I would consistently, though not always, set the grading curve on most exams. This is because I seemed to easily understand what we were being taught, and I love complex systems such as languages.

I mention all of this not to toot my own horn in any way, but simply because it is my feeling that when discussing the effects of "cognitive enhancing" nootropics, I think that it is important to consider an individual's starting point or baseline for the effects that are being sought after, reported, any lack of effect reported. What I mean is that if someone is already used to a certain high standard of cognitive ability, a slight increase may not be noticeable. However, if another person feels deficient in a certain area for whatever reason, and he takes something that is purported to have positive effects, even a slight increase may be noticeable. I believe these effects are highly relative both to prior brain chemistry, and the amount of mental facility that a person perceives himself as already having.

[bgwithadd]

Since the post specifically focused on verbal fluency, I should probably mention that I feel like I have a fairly high natural predisposition to verbal skills such as vocabulary, memorization, the complexities of grammatical rules, and what I would call the logic of conversation. For instance, I often find myself understanding what someone means when they word something in an odd way

That's also common for bipolar, just as a note. Of course I'm not a dr and it's just the internet etc. etc.

Anyway, I do think that's a big issue with nootropics, too; people simply are not going to notice something that doesn't have a major impact on their day to day lives. A lot of people come here expecting nootropics to be something that makes them superman or have a completely new personality but like any drugs you can only get specific results not some kind of generalized supercharging. So if you have no problem to start with, chances are you won't notice huge results.

However, I have gotten SOMETHING that increases my verbal fluency a bit. Like you, I'm already good in that department and got perfect verbal SAT scores for what it's worth, but sometimes in the last few months I have found myself writing crazy poetry and it's amazing how quickly it flows. Usually I tend to get thoughts all in big lumps but it's like whole page long poems laid out all at once. It could also be the ashwaghanda, though, as I really noticed it around when I started taking it.

[mentatpsi]

what dosage does everyone take?

[maverick_dw_04]

mystic: I take 180 mg of pycnogenol per day, as 3 doses of 60 mg at every major meal, starting with breakfast, and ending with dinner.

bg: Yeah, I read up on bipolar disorder, and I can definitely see some personal traits of mine there. But there are a handful of other personality disorders that I feel I could fit into as well. So like you said, we're not doctors, and I'm not going to try to diagnose myself; but it is interesting to study. As for how I feel right now, I feel like I could say bipolar schmipolar. ... ? Yeah.

Well, I don't want to get too overconfident, but I'm just glad that I've found something that seems to work so well, piracetam. As we've both mentioned before though, it's not just the drug alone, but overall lifestyle that really makes the total difference, such as diet, exercise, sleep, and for me I'll include spirituality - though that's not for everyone. On a side note, I find that I can also attribute many of my personality traits to the fact that I'm an INTP. Hopefully not all INTPs suffer from all the rest of the unpleasant bipolar-type characteristics, ha. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing what all you take, bg, and in what doses and how long you've been doing so. I feel like I've already hijacked this thread enough as it is though, so maybe send me a PM or something.

[bgwithadd]

Mystic - I'm taking about a gram a day.

Maverick - I have a thread over in the regimens section. I realized I missed a lot of stuff but it lists out the main things. It's been about a year since I've been trying stuff, I guess. I've had some good results and as an added bonus at some point my mysterious (and almost unbearable) digestive problems disappeared.

[brotherx]

1 gram? whoa - where do you buy it? Here it is pretty expensive (like 60 capsules a 60mg = 30€ /39$) !

Cheers

Alex

[bgwithadd]

I got a kilogram of it from purebulk.com. Seems to be exactly the same stuff as in the pills.

[brotherx]

That is interesting! Is it the same taste? Thanks for the link!
Unfortunately Germany is excluded!

Cheers and best regards

Alex

I got a kilogram of it from purebulk.com. Seems to be exactly the same stuff as in the pills.

[bgwithadd]

I never opened the pycnogenol pills, but they have the same look...sort of like very fine dirt, and the same smell. Like pine bark. Mostly, the effect seems to be there so it must be the same thing. Pycnogenol is a registered trademark, which is why the pills are so expensive if they use that name.

[brotherx]

I chew them all the time - it tastes somehow like a Swedish sauna - yeah - whatever this means.
I am trying to someone who is delivering bulk also to Germany!

Cheers

Alex

I never opened the pycnogenol pills, but they have the same look...sort of like very fine dirt, and the same smell. Like pine bark. Mostly, the effect seems to be there so it must be the same thing. Pycnogenol is a registered trademark, which is why the pills are so expensive if they use that name.

[unregistered_user]

So this topic died off. Is there anyone else here that has some experience with pycnogenol to share?

@bgwithadd: Did you continue your supplementation. If not, why?

[JChief]

Add me to the list of people who have the same question.

[longevitynow]

supposedly the pine bark extract caused a reduction of dopamine in the adhd study, which as far as i'm aware is paradoxical.






here is the complete abstract:




i guess if it works, it works, though i myself am not too interested in reducing my dopamine levels, even if i may gain a net benefit that seems healthier. what do you guys think?

If you look closely at the study, NE (norepinephrine) was positively correlated to ADHD. The pycnogenol lowered dopamine and especially NE and the kids got better. If they were ADHD, then they have some hyperactivity and it makes sense that something that lowers NE (which in excess causes anxiety--a true fight or flight hormone), could reduce their hyperactivity. If someone has ADD without hyperactivity, then they typically have too little NE, so lowering it probably wouldn't help those kids. Since most of us are adults, there are typically fewer adults with excessive catecholamines and more with lower levels of dopamine and NE, so pycnogenol might not work as well for them. It is young people who typically have too many hormones and neurotransmitters, not us old folks.

I know they give ritalin to hyper kids and it helps them in the short run, but I also think the idea that ritalin is miraculous for hyperactivity is overblown. The kids who respond best to them are the attention deficit without hyperactivity kids. And whether long-term use by anybody is a good idea is open to question.

[sam7777]

eek does this stuff really lower dopamine, I started to get it, but frankly It would be better if it left dopamine alone altogether.

[evodude]

Did anybody try to stack ik with any racetams yet?

[abelard lindsay]

I had some decent results with Pycnogenol. Definitely helped me get less distracted at work. That's about all its' good for though. I took 180 mg every time. Stuff is expensive though.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 25 September 2011 - 03:29 AM.

[pycnogenol]

I take 100 mg of Pycnogenol every other day (monday/wednesday/friday) and skip the weekends.

One sixty-count Healthy Origins bottle costs $33 and lasts me 5 months. Not too bad cost-wise.

http://www.iherb.com...Vcaps/4128?at=0

Hub Med has loads of info on pycnogenol:

http://www.hubmed.or...enol &sort=date

I would certainly like to take pycnogenol daily but that would be cost prohibitive.

Edited by pycnogenol, 25 September 2011 - 02:46 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Dopamine in urine was tested? If my logic serves me right, that would mean that dopamine in the urine would be from the dopamine in the blood. If dopamine in the blood is high, then that could be due to overactive transporters (high levels of NET and DAT). A re-uptake inhibitor would have the same action as pycnogenol: keeping dopamine inside the cells, preventing NET and DAT from dumping dopamine and norepinephrine into the blood stream. If you cells retain more dopamine and norepinephrine, you would excrete less in your urine.

Tell me if I'm wrong. Don't NET inhibitors and DAT inhibitors cause less dopamine and norepinephrine to be in the urine as well?