40 replies to this topic

[DanHalen]

Hey guys...I found this site and it seemed to be a good place to read up and discuss the problem that I have...I've never once actually thought to write about the condition my life is in right now, but at this point I have to do something.

I started college in the Fall of 2005, and was having a hard time focusing on the work, I was always scatterbrained and very quick to fall asleep. So when I went to my doctor about this, she wanted me to try Adderall. Well, for me at the time it was a lifesaver. I had energy, I felt like my brain was working at 100% and it helped me obtain a 4.0 GPA for my first year in college. I also lost ALOT of weight. I was at ~400lbs, and I got down to 285. Life was great.

It was a little after that point that things started taking a downward turn...it seemed like the adderall was working less. What used to last all day, now only lasted a few hours. And I started having these "Down Days" as I called them....days when I wouldn't take my adderall for whatever reason, and I would feel absolutely HORRIBLE. I wouldn't feel motivated to do anything, I'd just wanna lay down and sleep all day, and I was HUNGRY ALL THE TIME. I'd eat even worse than what the Munchies can do when you smoke weed, it's insane.

I started gaining weight, then the depression sunk in...even when I'd take adderall, I'd have 3-5 day stretches where I was severely depressed about EVERYTHING. I wouldn't go out with friends, and since this point, I haven't dated once. I haven't because most times, the depression sinks in and I feel this inferiority complex like "Why would they want me? I'm this, and I'm that...nah, just forget about it."

When I went to my doctor about it, she wanted me to try the XR stuff, and I've been on that ever since. I'm up to 90mg of XR a day, and at this point I dont even know why I'm taking it. I'm doing alright in my classes, but I have to work 200x harder to get good grades because my mind feels the same way it did back before I took Adderall, but I'm afraid to stop taking it because of how I feel when I'm off of it.

I'm just really sick and tired of feeling depressed and scatterbrained to the point where doing my normal assignments is a chore, and going days at a time where the depression is so great that I dont wanna leave my apt. I'm 25 years old, I shouldn't be feeling like this. But as I said, I'm afraid to go off of Adderall because it just magnifies the problems, and I've gained back enough of the weight I lost, I dont wanna gain more. I've made an appointment with my doctor for next week to talk to her about all of this, but I'm afraid she'll just try an dput me on another Adderall substitute and the cycle will repeat.

What do you guys think I should do? Thanks for any help given....

Dizzle

[Heliotrope]

I feel your pain. btw welcome to imminst! your're the 6,777 registered user. i like the 777 lucky number

here's some info i found

"Due to side effects including appetite suppression and weight loss, Adderall has also been used as an off-label drug for obesity.[18]

Adderall is also reportedly widely used as a "study drug" at many American universities. Adderall is reported to help focus energy and concentration to a much higher level than normal. It enables the user to focus and stay awake.[19] Stories of students writing papers for an unusual number of continuous hours [e.g., 14 hours], or cramming all night for an exam with no loss of energy or concentrations are common. However, the user reportedly can suffer from drastic side effects the following day if Adderall was used to avoid a normal sleep pattern. These reported side effects include temporary loss of vision, sleeping over 14 hours, muscle spasms, vomiting, mental confusion, etc. William Frankenberger, psychology professor at University of Wisconsin at Eau Claire, led at a study at the university in 2004 that reported 14% of the campus had abused some form of ADHD drug, including Adderall.[19]. College campuses known to be highly competitive or have a high rate of binge drinking had up to 25% of students who misused an ADHD medication within one year"

Adderall must have deadened your senses, and do you use increasingly large dosages to achieve the same effect? when you're off it, you sleep all day and feel hungry, could be a backlash from the hunger and sleep suppressing effects of the drug? find another doctor , get expert treatments? join support groups.

I started college in fall 05 too and read articles about ADHD drug uses and had a friend who was on ritalin etc and i seriously wanted to try them but didn't want to take away from other ppl's prescription. I also throught trying modafinil , in Brandnames like provigil and modalert which purportedly have LITTLE SIDE EFFECTS. now i'm not so sure. Besides i don't exactly know how to safely obtain them. I called Cyphlon, the company that makes Provigil and wanted to try their 1-Week free trial but still need prescription for that and i can maybe only claim excessive sleepiness from time to time as i could sleep 16 hrs straight in one stretch, and the longest time i stayed awake straight was ~36 straight w/o sleep and it felt like hell. I'm afraid to see a doctor for that, because the doc would likely see through my need to use it as study aid or whatever.


When you need to study from NOW ON, try basic concentration and pure Will POWER, positive reinforcements, force yourself to concentrate, listen to music/audiobook/lectures, make your work enjoyable. slowly get off of it?

Edited by HYP86, 26 June 2008 - 08:22 PM.

[Heliotrope]

Btw many threads on Imminst discuss modafinil , I never really read them through, what's the reason for our members trying to get modafinil Huh? What's the use? Does it lengthen life? Or make it seem like you're lengthening life since you can sleep less and have more time to "live" and have a social life? sleeping a whole third of our lives away does seem like a bit of waste, and if we conquer "sleep" maybe we can live 33% longer or seems like it right? modafinil seems safer than the ADHD drugs but it can basically achieve the same effect for school/grades etc. I'm seriously tempted to try some wonder drugs , but now i know to stay away from Adderall

my previous post may not help that much, so get expert help, they and mostly only you can help yourself get off the bad effects of the drug.

Edited by HYP86, 26 June 2008 - 08:26 PM.

[Oscar]

Well yeah, I am kinda new to this site, but I am glad I found it, especially this topic. For about 5 years now, I have been taking Adderall XR, at first it was only 25mg I think and has gradually increased to where I am now at 60mg a day. I started taking the adderall halfway through my 8th grade year of school, where I noticed a great improvement in my performance. It helped me all through high school. All along though, if I would mistakely forget to take it one morning, I would feel horriable the rest of the day, drowsie, etc. So I have always made the attempt to take the meds, to save myself from feeling like that, cause I cant stand it. But recently, while meeting with my doctor, he suggested that I all of a sudden stop taking 60mg a day and only take 30mg, after I have been taking 60mg for about 2 years. I tried it one day, I was fine for the morning, but then as the day went on, I felt the effects of it running out. I got very drowsy, couldnt focus on anything, and only want to sleep, which I wasnt able to do. I just dont know what I should do, it is a really bad time for me to be trying to adjust to something like this, what with college about to start and everything. Any suggestions on what anyone thinks could help.

[jCole]

I highly suggest reading through the Nootropic sub forum under Supplements. Tons of good material to read through to help you.

I used to have a hard time focusing and concentrating myself for years and years. Tried Adderall, but you might as well smoke Meth, Adderall is really bad for you.


I got on Modafinil (Provigil) and it has changed my life. It's also a non stim and non addictive, so it's easy to cycle on and off the stuff with no withdrawls or a crash at the end of the day... It's a hard feeling to explain but once I take it, my brain feels as if it's turbo charged and I can focus so hard I feel like I could shoot laser beams out of my eyes. Also your energy levels shoot through the roof. IMO, the energy gain, focus & concentration is more so then on Adderall and more of a natural feeling. It also kills your appetite, so it can help with weight management.

It's officially only prescribed for Narcolepsy and/or working related/induced somnolence. Giving work related somnolence, as my reason, is how I was able to get a legal prescription. (US brand name is Provigil)

Also look into some Piracetam & CDP-Choline. Cheap stuff with a nice boost in cognitive performance and concentration. And is available online without a prescription. Adding in some ALCAR & ALA helps too.


But definitely check out the Nootropic sub forum on here. Tons of other people with similar threads such as this with a ton of answers for you to sift through.

Welcome to the forum btw.

Edited by jCole, 11 August 2008 - 08:01 PM.

[bgwithadd]

You just need a 'drug holiday'. You'll have to let your tolerance wear off a bit by quitting a month or two. I try to take it 5 days a week. If you do that, you will reach a sort of tolerance plateau. Also, the IR is cheaper, but to be avoided.

If you genuinely have ADD, then you will probably not feel 'energetic' taking adderal, though. It should make you feel like waves of slowness and lethargy that bring your mind down to sane levels of speed instead of racing 10000 miles per hour and jumping around everywhere.

You might have some completely different problem, and for just staying awake/energy modafinil is a much better drug, but ultimately finding out what's wrong is what you need to do.

People don't get you can't just 'try harder' if you have problems in these areas, ten times nothing is still nothing, as I have learned . I'm lucky enough I never had a lick of trouble studying but that's because I have a read once instantly understand and remember it kind of brain or I would have been in a LOT of trouble at school. Unfortunately in the working world you're not allowed to work 5 hours a month working and spend the rest of the time doing random and pointless activities and still get paid.

[graatch]

Dan, I currently take memantine at 30mg/daily to stave off tolerance to the motivating/mood-boosting effects of dextroamphetamine, without having to raise the dose. I feel it's a little early to make a positive report on this combination, but it has worked fairly well without having to raise the dexedrine doses for four weeks.

Typically for me any motivation/mood effect (these being related to nucleus accumbens dopamine release) from d-amphetamine disappears after 2-3 days of stable dosing, only returning if the dose is increased, which becomes impossible as adrenaline-related side effects increase and retarded, tweaky behavior emerges. When the motivation goes it leaves a duller, subjectively zombifying concentrative effect (related to stimulation of prefrontal structures) which is tolerated much more slowly, and can and even sensitize, and that I feel is actually less therapeutic for me -- inattentive, with low-energy depression and social avoidance -- than the initial effects.

The working model that some have speculated on is that the additional mechanism of tolerance in the nucleus accumbens is related to glutamate overexcitation desensitizing dopamine neurons. Memantine, as a partial NMDA antagonist, is at the right dose suggested to block this overexcitation without compromising the healthy functioning that is required for learning and memory.

Effects of appetite suppression and weight loss from the sympathomimetic effects of amphetamine, though, will (fortunately for me -- I am already underweight, and unfortunately for you) always gain tolerance, and there is no mechanism that we know of to prevent this tolerance from occurring.

Except for, potentially, if the amphetamine helps you with focus or motivation, then it helping one to adopt and keep behaviors that promote health -- proper eating, exercise, etc.

No easy road in that department but there is certainly much hope.

If you genuinely have ADD, then you will probably not feel 'energetic' taking adderal, though. It should make you feel like waves of slowness and lethargy that bring your mind down to sane levels of speed instead of racing 10000 miles per hour and jumping around everywhere.

Not always. This is, roughly speaking, the difference between inattentive and hyperactive forms of the disorder, which are actually probably fairly different conditions. Pure hyperactive forms are rare in adulthood, as the prefrontal cortex catches up with an overdeveloped motor cortex. I am inattentive and quite zombie-like without medication -- dextroamphetamine energizes me.

[luv2increase]

Tried Adderall, but you might as well smoke Meth, Adderall is really bad for you.

No no no. The mechanisms of action between the two substances are vastly different. You cannot compare smoking meth to adderall in any way or on any day!



edit: To the threadstarter: I would just take a break from everything for awhile except for a multi, fish oil, calcium/magnesium supp, and possibly adaptogenic herbs. Also, make sure your diet is good, get adequate sleep as well as sleep patterns, and you are exercising.

Follow this and you will be fine. The human body is amazing at is regenerative capabilities. Give it time and be patient; don't forget to think positive.

Edited by luv2increase, 17 August 2008 - 07:13 PM.

[mystery]

Well yeah, I am kinda new to this site, but I am glad I found it, especially this topic. For about 5 years now, I have been taking Adderall XR, at first it was only 25mg I think and has gradually increased to where I am now at 60mg a day. I started taking the adderall halfway through my 8th grade year of school, where I noticed a great improvement in my performance. It helped me all through high school. All along though, if I would mistakely forget to take it one morning, I would feel horriable the rest of the day, drowsie, etc. So I have always made the attempt to take the meds, to save myself from feeling like that, cause I cant stand it. But recently, while meeting with my doctor, he suggested that I all of a sudden stop taking 60mg a day and only take 30mg, after I have been taking 60mg for about 2 years. I tried it one day, I was fine for the morning, but then as the day went on, I felt the effects of it running out. I got very drowsy, couldnt focus on anything, and only want to sleep, which I wasnt able to do. I just dont know what I should do, it is a really bad time for me to be trying to adjust to something like this, what with college about to start and everything. Any suggestions on what anyone thinks could help.

Oscar, I'm assuming you were diagnosed with ADHD?

Adderall will probably make just about anyone perform better, as will most CNS stimulants. The question is, is it being used to treat a specific condition that is related to poor performance, e.g., inattentiveness, narcolepsy, motivation problems, ect? If you can narrow down the problem, then it may be possible to find other helpful treatments, and taper off the adderall.

Here's some detail of my problems, and how I'm dealing with them. Don't waste time reading the rest of this post if you are looking for advice that I'm not prepared to give. I can only give a thorough account of my own condition which might give you some ideas.

I tend to have big problems with attention, staying focused on a task (particularly if it's complicated), and general performance in completing tasks. But it's not related to lethargy, because if I get tons of exercise which makes me feel really energetic (even overstimulated), I still have the same problems. This might even make me less focused. It's also not a problem with motivation because I can make myself really motivated and overstress myself, which doesn't help, and can really make me feel miserable.

I've narrowed it down to possibly a balance problem between activity and recovery. It's an issue of the demands I'm placing on my brain to perform, and for how long. For example, I could do simple tasks all day, and be completely happy with that and perform well. But, if I do a complicated task, I can easily overstress my brain. And if I continually due complicated tasks, without any time to recover, then it gets much worse. My body appears to augment my performance with the natural stress response, but this is only an effective temporary augmentation and not to mention it feels like s*it. In addition, it may be detremental to long term memory, and actually hurt cognitive function in certain ways.

I've found that d-amphetamine sort of augments my capacity to pay attention which is represented by my ability to focus, remember, learn quickly, and then work through a task. But, this augmentation appears to be only temporary. For example, if I take two doses in one day, I'll get a much reduced effect from the 2nd dose, and mostly just more speedy negative effects. Also, I notice that it's much more helpful to wait a while, like until 10-11am when I really need that augmentation. In this way, I feel like it is sort of a more powerful stress response.

Also, I'm recognizing that d-amphetamine probably isn't a cure. It's really just an enhancement of what's already there. In all practical aspects, the real problem may just be that I'm placing unrealistic demands on my brain. This has led me to structure a fully comprehensive approach in treatment. I realize that I must still perform at work, but I must make compromises:

-Taking a nap midday really helps, or just taking 1/2 hour and laying down so my brain can recover, with no external stimuls
-Using d-amphetamine selectively! If I can focus and function without it, then I don't take it. This way it works better when I really need it.
-When doing a complicated task, break it down. Complete portions of it, then do simpler tasks to give my brain a break.
-Realizing that ultimately, I have to make life/career changes to coincide more with my natural brain function. I don't know how to do that yet, so the d-amphetamine buys me some time.

It's very possible that my problem could be the poor function of a specific enzyme that converts chemicals in the brain. This may be the rate limiting step that forms the required compounds (neurotransmitters for example) for performance, and it may be what's drastically shifting my sustainable cognitive capabilities. I realize that treatment for me is now just a way to augment what's already there for a short time. Perhaps if I try another treatment, then it may provide a more temporary improvement by a different mechanism of action.

Also, what's very interesting is that taking just one dose of d-amphetamine, then I seem to get an improvement after the drug has been completely metabolized! It's like it may temporarily cause structural changes, or some other changes that sort of stick. In this way, I may at least get some permanent benefit from only taking small doses occasionally. I don't think I could get these benefits if I regularly took large doses of d-amph because the negative sides, rapid tolerance, and come-down effects may overshadow everything. It's a sort of paradox; I can get a more sustainable and temporary benefit if I take it less and in smaller doses.

I may find deprenyl or ritalin much more effective. This may be because they may not raise dopamine or norepenephrine activity without being initiated by neural activity. This seems to indicate that I could turn off their effects and recover from the hightened nural activity just by relaxing and taking a break. In this way their effects could possibly be selectivey activated for exactly when I need them, and allowying my brain to recover when I don't need them.

This is just an idea of the depth that I'm going into to understand my own condition, and underlying problems. Not that this should apply to you or anyone here. My point is that if you understand more about your condition and real problems, then you can possibly form a more comprehensive and sustainable treatment plan.

Edited by mystery, 17 August 2008 - 09:31 PM.

[jCole]

Tried Adderall, but you might as well smoke Meth, Adderall is really bad for you.

No no no. The mechanisms of action between the two substances are vastly different. You cannot compare smoking meth to adderall in any way or on any day!

(I was being facetious, but was trying to make an obvious point)


Obviously some, of the mechanism are different.... but they are still, both powerful amphetamines.

Adderall is a combination of two CNS stimulants: amphetamine, and dexidrine, which is really just dextroamphetamine.
Meth labs produce non-human consumption quality of amphetamine. Same active ingredient as Adderall, but a lot of extra impurities, which can kill.

My point was, that both are can wreck havoc on your life. I've been around addicts to both and while Meth was certainly worse, Adderall is no walk in the park either... overtime, more times then not, it ends up being abused and/or you have to constantly keep increasing the dosage. As is also apparent by the originator of this thread.

Edited by jCole, 17 August 2008 - 10:12 PM.

[luv2increase]

Same active ingredient as Adderall, but a lot of extra impurities, which can kill.

No they do not.

[jCole]

Same active ingredient as Adderall, but a lot of extra impurities, which can kill.

No they do not.

You get the point.

Next.

[luv2increase]

Same active ingredient as Adderall, but a lot of extra impurities, which can kill.

No they do not.

You get the point.

Next.

No I do not get the point. You said that 'Adderall' has the same active ingredients as does methamphetamine. That is simply not true.


You can't post stuff and hope for people to know that you are being 'facetious'. Post factual posts or at least as close to factual as you know within the forums.

[jCole]

Same active ingredient as Adderall, but a lot of extra impurities, which can kill.

No they do not.

You get the point.

Next.

No I do not get the point.

You really do have a hard time with reading comprehension don't you?

Try reading the entire post, instead of chicken pecking out bits and pieces.

You said that 'Adderall' has the same active ingredients as does methamphetamine. That is simply not true.

If you want to train wreck a thread, like you are notoriously known for, then make another thread to debate the chemistry of Methamphentamine & Adderall.

You can't post stuff and hope for people to know that you are being 'facetious'. Post factual posts or at least as close to factual as you know within the forums.

Didn't your own thread regarding this ideology, get closed a few days ago?

The point to my posts, which anyone with basic social skills could of understood, was that Adderall is a dangerous amphetamine.


Do you need me to simplify even further for you?

Edited by jCole, 17 August 2008 - 11:16 PM.

[luv2increase]

Didn't your own thread regarding this ideology, get closed a few days ago?

Yes, I had it deleted.

Do you need me to simplify even further for you?

Actually, you need to not simplify anything. You haven't listed anything scientific at all. You actually wrote very incorrect information which needed to be made known. You know, you can admit that you were wrong, and I think you need to go study the chemistry of the two chemicals in question. You cannot lump them into the same category. That isn't scientific yet quite idiotic (assuming you knew what you had written was wrong).

I haven't seen anything scientific being written from you.

The discussions on this forum are quite intense and aren't suited for statements such as

Tried Adderall, but you might as well smoke Meth, Adderall is really bad for you.

.


Back up what you say with scientific studies will you.

Saying that something is bad just doesn't cut it. Putting adderall and methamphetamine in the same boat just doesn't cut it. I understand that you are quite new here at Imminst, and I'm glad you're here, but when you say something as an absolute or have a sincere belief in something, back it up with something.

[bgwithadd]

Methamphetamine is actually an EXCELLENT treatment for ADD, and is used for that under the brand name Desoxyn. The benefit is that it is more powerful, so lower doses can be used, giving less peripheral side effect. Good luck getting it prescribed, though. There's also no long acting version on the market, so it is not nearly as helpful - also, the IR versions of drugs are much more abusable.


As for ADD versus ADHD, I have inattentive ADD and that's how it seems for me. It slows my mind down (or maybe it speeds up some inhibitory part of my mind?) so that I can stick with one subject for more than 12 seconds.

I worried a lot about becoming addicted at first, but I now think I'm about as liable to become addicted to black licorice as adderal xr. As for saying how bad it is, well, I know firsthand there's nothing bad about stims AT ALL compared to any other prescription drug class. Amphetamines have had a profound positive effect on my life and for me at least, even the 'bad' side effects are all good.

Depression, gone forever. Anxiety, gone forever. Weight, no longer a struggle to maintain. Socially and familywise, I am much better, I actually care about people. Most important of all...I get things done. Instead of having a struggle to do the simplest tasks in life I can finally just get things done.

Edited by bgwithadd, 18 August 2008 - 06:37 AM.

[luv2increase]

Methamphetamine is actually an EXCELLENT treatment for ADD, and is used for that under the brand name Desoxyn. The benefit is that it is more powerful, so lower doses can be used, giving less peripheral side effect. Good luck getting it prescribed, though. There's also no long acting version on the market, so it is not nearly as helpful - also, the IR versions of drugs are much more abusable.


As for ADD versus ADHD, I have inattentive ADD and that's how it seems for me. It slows my mind down (or maybe it speeds up some inhibitory part of my mind?) so that I can stick with one subject for more than 12 seconds.

I worried a lot about becoming addicted at first, but I now think I'm about as liable to become addicted to black licorice as adderal xr. As for saying how bad it is, well, I know firsthand there's nothing bad about stims AT ALL compared to any other prescription drug class. Amphetamines have had a profound positive effect on my life and for me at least, even the 'bad' side effects are all good.

Depression, gone forever. Anxiety, gone forever. Weight, no longer a struggle to maintain. Socially and familywise, I am much better, I actually care about people. Most important of all...I get things done. Instead of having a struggle to do the simplest tasks in life I can finally just get things done.

I am happy that you are having great success with Adderall for your inattentive-type ADD. I also was diagnosed inattentive-type ADD and chose the natural (if that is what you could call it) route and am having profound success.


The biggest contributors I believe are fish oil, exercise (powerlifting/bodybuilding), and a regular sleep pattern.


bgwithadd, I want to forewarn you that Adderall will not work forever. I am not sure how long you have been taking it, but if I were to guess, I'd say not too very long. I could be wrong though. Its effects will ultimately dwindle leaving you on a path to different stimulant drugs etc.. If I were you, I'd continue taking the Adderall 'AND' start implementing some natural means of treating it also. What is the worst that could happen? You can only go up, and you'll have a so-called safety-net when you exhaust the stimulant route or start having deleterious side-effects which prohibit you from continuing with stimulant therapy.

Edited by luv2increase, 18 August 2008 - 07:11 AM.

[bgwithadd]

I am glad to hear there is someone else in the same boat on these forums, especially someone who seems pretty knowledgable. I found out I had ADD I think at the beginning of the year, which was a big shock, and in the last couple months have been focused on finding supplements and such to help.

I am actually off adderal for the moment, as my new doctor seems to think I may have some other issues as well as ADD and is trying to see how I react to some other drugs. I have heard mixed results about longer term use (just a couple months for me), but it sounds as though it's largely a matter of giving yourself drug holidays and avoiding tolerance.

The reason I'm here is to try and find alternative medicines that work close to as well as the stims. The problem with adderal being that it doesn't work 24 hours a day, it hurts my stomach, and it costs a lot of money. Unfortunately, the supplements are kind of expensive, too.

So far, I have gotten the most result out of the fish oil. I was surprised to see it lifts my mood better than wellbutrin and it increases my focus a fair amount, though not nearly so much as adderal. Wellbutrin gives me a lot more drive, though. Fish oil does not seem to help in that area, but w does not seem to affect focus any.

I have various racetams (oxi, ani, pi) and choline sources, but I don't seem to get a lot out of those. Or from the grean tea or theanine. At least, it's not as noticable as with the fish oil. I take the 'sharp mind' supplement from solaray, and I like it but it doesn't have a huge effect - it works better if I take more but I am afraid to push it much because of the possible side effects. It's also a bit expensive to take more than 1-2 a day. Other than that, nothing seems to work for me at all, or even do anything. Except stims, of course, but for now I have yet to develop a tolerance.

I used to drink caffeine nonstop when I had work to do and that worked very well, but it is hardly healthy and with my stomach in the shape it's in now I have to be very careful with caffeine consumption.

At some point I will try just one at a time of each to get a good idea of what works for me at all and how much, but for now I need results as I have quit my day job to make a computer game and have stalled out and need to find some way to stop procrastinating and get back into things. I am sure tha will take more than just supplements, but if you have any other suggestions, I would love to hear them. Also, ideas on how to gage if any of this stuff is WORKING would be great.

Right now I guess it's sort of a chicken and egg problem - I can't tell how well they are working til I start working on my project again, but I don't seem to be have enough focus and ental energy to break through and stop procrastinating and get back to work. I'm pretty damn encouraged by the fish oil. I am not sure it puts me at 50%, but surely at 30% better and maybe more. I'm also glad the adderal at least showed me where normal is, if nothing else.

Actually, I can live with being disorganized. I even work better that way, juggling a million balls at once. The problem is, it's like I have NO ability to choose what I do. It's like some overlord decides what I do and I have no say. It could be a girl, could be work, could be learning about supplements, could be home improvement, could be learning the banjo, could be anything. Once I start I might be in that mode a week, a month, or a year. Then I get bored or something else comes along that seems better. The only thing that makes that change is emergency situations that pop up. I do great in emergencies, and my ADD seems to keep me bouncing from one emergency to another, supplying me with plenty of opportnity to explore this ability.

Hopefully, that will finally stop once I get the right combo of supplements and/or drugs, plus maybe some new ways of coping with things. All attempts at organization seem hopeless or even counterproductive, so I don't think that route will help me much and the problem is when I try to do something different I forget I was even doing it a week later. Drugs work, but are limited. Supplements are working out better than I hoped, but not yet enough to make me want to forego prescription drugs.

[luv2increase]

It sounds as though cognitive-behavioral therapy would work well for you.



Also, brain exercising would be excellent. Mybraintrainer.com

[bgwithadd]

I'm a little leery of CBT, at least for ADD symptoms. I might go that route eventually, but probably not just yet. If only therapy were cheaper.

I'll check out the brain trainer site, though.

[mystery]

...
The only thing that makes that change is emergency situations that pop up. I do great in emergencies, and my ADD seems to keep me bouncing from one emergency to another, supplying me with plenty of opportnity to explore this ability.

I'm much the same way. In school, I would always wait until the last minute to do a project or paper. I thought it was just a poor habit of procrastinating, or poor motivation. But, now I think I was probably waiting for that last minute rush of adrenaline. There's a big difference in what happens physiologically when I need to do something versus absolutely having to do it now or I'm in deep shyt. That surge in adrenaline really helped me think clearly and focus on tasks. I would usually augment it with a load of caffeine.

At some point I will try just one at a time of each to get a good idea of what works for me at all and how much, but for now I need results as I have quit my day job to make a computer game and have stalled out and need to find some way to stop procrastinating and get back into things. I am sure tha will take more than just supplements, but if you have any other suggestions, I would love to hear them. Also, ideas on how to gage if any of this stuff is WORKING would be great.

After being treated with d-amphetamine and with pretty amazing results, I've realized that one really needs to pay close attention to research. I've tried probably over 100 supplements/drugs/herbs/noots. I never gotten much benefit from them because I was really just looking for some magical cognitive transformation. I never had any idea of the specific condition I was looking for, which I now have narrowed down to better focus/attention to treat ADHD-PI symptoms. I can now narrow down the research of interest, and the supplements that are likely to help. This reduces list of helpful supplements with REAL potential as demonstrated with clinically significant results in studies of ADHD treatment dramatically.

There are lots of supplements/herbs/noots that have mixed or slightly positive results for general cognitive improvement, especially in the case of encephalopathic disorders. But, if I'm looking for significant results before the turn of the next century, and having to try 100s of supplements for months each at a time (since many supplements take weeks or months to demonstrate cognitive improvement per research), then it really pays to follow the research specifically geared toward ADHD. Secondly, it helps to follow supplement and herb suggestions from those who've treated ADHD using alternative methods as a secondary measure.

Here is what I've found. I'm not offering any advice, instead this is my assesment based on research, and I'm clearly no ADHD professional. Also, this list is NOT complete, nor definitive in any way.

What I've found so far in terms of supplements:
-A few on studies on Acetyl-L-Carnitine for ADHD, particularly the predominently inattentive subtype
-One study on a very large dose of piracetam (40-70 mg/kg/day) for a month to treath ADHD
-A study on combineing ginko with american ginseng for ADHD
-Studies on Carnosine for autism with significant results, and I feel ADHD-PI subtype could exhibit some similar behavioural traits
-Efficacy of fish oil in treating ADHD is questionable, but if it doesn't cause negative sides then it may be helpful in combination with other treatments
-Could NOT find any studies on pramiracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, or phenylpiracetam for ADHD, nor any supplements to boost acetylcholine levels (precursors, acetylcholinsterace inhibitors, ect) so I will not bother with a long term trial, except after having tried other measures
-Similarly, could NOT find any evidence demonstrating the efficacy of vitamin like compounds to increase dopamine levels (NADH for example), amino acids (l-tyrosine, & phenylaline) in treating ADHD
-Some of Tillotson's herbal recommendations: Attention Deficiet Disorder , namely bacopa in "sufficient doses", and grapeseed extract, but others based on ADHD symptoms. However Bacopa has not generally demonstrated significant results in improving learning or memory in studies.
-In Adaptogens: Herbs for Strength, Stamina, and Stress Relief the "adaptogen" herbs Eleuthero, and ashwaghanda are mentioned for ADHD which may be worth trying, as Eleuthero has some support for improving performance under stressful conditions (as do the other ginsengs)
-Checking for ancedotal reports for various supplements and herbs at revolutionhealth , which leads to the possiblity of various other herbs like rhodiola rosea based on one ancedotal report
-Some suggestions in this article may be helpful Beating Attention Deficit Disorder , B vitamins, and other vitamin like compounds, as well as certain minerals (notably magnesium), but it is imoportant to note that there is little evidence of efficacy for treatment of ADHD. Still, if supplementing doesn't present any side effects, than this may certainly be helpful in combination with other treatments.
-A lot of these treatments are also mentioned on Ray Sahelian's ADHD page
-Some herbs/supplements recommended here: University of Maryland Medical Center ADHD may be worth trying as a last resort

Drugs that may be helpful without as many side effects as typical ADHD drugs:
-Modafinil has a significant number of studies demonstrating efficacy in ADHD treatment
-Adrafinil - metabolizes to modafinil, may have more side effects, and has no ADHD studies. Is cheaper, and is not a controlled substance like modafinil.
-Deprenyl (selective MAO-B irreversible inhibitor in doses ~10mg/day or less) has a few ADHD studies
-Rasagiline another MAO-B irreversible inhibitor, but with no ADHD studies
-guanfacine approved by the FDA for ADHD treatment
-Dexmethylphenidate - D-isomer of methylphenidate also approved by the FDA, may be better tolerated than dl-methylphenidate
-Caffeine - may be helpful on off days, or as a substitute to medication to help reduce tolerance, though I couldn't find any ADHD studies
(ect. this is not complete, and I'm still doing research)

Edited by mystery, 18 August 2008 - 08:21 PM.

[bgwithadd]

Thanks for the response. I think a lot of things only apply if you are deficient or have a specific defect they address. The fish oil worked so well it was immediately obvious the first day for me, but for many people it seems to do little. Low quality oil is completely worthless, though, too. That may be a factor. I doubt I would get any benefit from carnosine and seem to get no benefit from aceto-carnalyne, but they are already suffiently present in mat so unless I have some bad conversion gene I dount I would.

From everything I have heard *finil and guanfacine and all ritalin variants are really not very good for actual focus, which for me is what I need. I don;t have hyperactivity.

The tyrosine definitely helps. The l-dopa, well it increases dopamine for sure, but it does not seem to help my symptoms at all.

All the choline drugs I think I will drop for now. You can go too far with those. I am sure most of the *racetams have similar effects to piracetam, though.

Ah well, I guess I have probaby gotten all I can from supplements until I get a chance to add them in and out singly some day. I have heard that vyvanse is te best stim for raw focus and it also seems like it would cause less upset stomach, so I will try to get that next,

[luv2increase]

Thanks for the response. I think a lot of things only apply if you are deficient or have a specific defect they address. The fish oil worked so well it was immediately obvious the first day for me, but for many people it seems to do little. Low quality oil is completely worthless, though, too. That may be a factor. I doubt I would get any benefit from carnosine and seem to get no benefit from aceto-carnalyne, but they are already suffiently present in mat so unless I have some bad conversion gene I dount I would.

From everything I have heard *finil and guanfacine and all ritalin variants are really not very good for actual focus, which for me is what I need. I don;t have hyperactivity.

The tyrosine definitely helps. The l-dopa, well it increases dopamine for sure, but it does not seem to help my symptoms at all.

All the choline drugs I think I will drop for now. You can go too far with those. I am sure most of the *racetams have similar effects to piracetam, though.

Ah well, I guess I have probaby gotten all I can from supplements until I get a chance to add them in and out singly some day. I have heard that vyvanse is te best stim for raw focus and it also seems like it would cause less upset stomach, so I will try to get that next,

Not every problem in life can be eradicated by a magic pill. You have to get your diet in order as well as involving yourself in an exercise program. I also think that brain exercises would help you tremendously as well.

[bgwithadd]

I used to exercise to religious degrees, but it did nothing much for me mentally. The last thing I feel like doing after exercising is computer programming, which is what I need to be doing.

I have joined the website you recommened. I am not sure that you can genuinely 'train your brain', but it looks like it has several tests very good for meauring focus and that will be invaluable to me for measuring how well I am doing. I do extremely well on all the tests except the ones that pertain to ADD, it seems, which just confirms things more for me, I suppose.

[luv2increase]

I used to exercise to religious degrees, but it did nothing much for me mentally. The last thing I feel like doing after exercising is computer programming, which is what I need to be doing.

I have joined the website you recommened. I am not sure that you can genuinely 'train your brain', but it looks like it has several tests very good for meauring focus and that will be invaluable to me for measuring how well I am doing. I do extremely well on all the tests except the ones that pertain to ADD, it seems, which just confirms things more for me, I suppose.

That site has scientific studies linked to it as well as many university athletic teams which utilize it. I did it, and I am living proof that it had a LASTING affect on my ADD and cognitive abilities in general.

There is a myriad of research suggesting exercising your brain has many many many many benefits to your brain health. I don't care if it be sudoku, crosswords, whatever; just do it! I'm sure your computer programming is stimulating, but that to is just like not switching up an exercise program, your brain adapts and quits getting stimulated from it. You have to switch it up from time to time.

I am assuming since you are a programmer that you are quite lazy. I don't say this is a mean way, it is just that sitting for countless hours in front of a computer screen is a sedimentary lifestyle plain and simple. This along with you saying that you 'used to exercise' tells me that you are definitely looking for an easy way out. You are also, in a way, playing the 'i don't have enough time' stint. Get off your ass and do some physical activity boy <---- That is the nicest way I could possibly say it. The definition of insanity is someone believing they can keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome. You sitting on your tail end all day long being a couch potato is not going to get you anywhere plain, flat, and simply (i hope).

Edited by luv2increase, 20 August 2008 - 04:16 AM.

[bgwithadd]

Well, I will definitely give it a try.

Oh, and I have had good success with supplements in the past to the point that some problems are easy to cure for me now such as depression or anxiety - and without the terrible effects of ssris or benzos. So, I have not given up hope to get further. Even a 30% treatment like the fish oil gives is truly amazing, if you stop to think about it.

[luv2increase]

Well, I will definitely give it a try.

Oh, and I have had good success with supplements in the past to the point that some problems are easy to cure for me now such as depression or anxiety - and without the terrible effects of ssris or benzos. So, I have not given up hope to get further. Even a 30% treatment like the fish oil gives is truly amazing, if you stop to think about it.

That is a great attitude to have! Good luck to you and remember not to ever give up! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me anytime.

[mystery]

Thanks for the response. I think a lot of things only apply if you are deficient or have a specific defect they address. The fish oil worked so well it was immediately obvious the first day for me, but for many people it seems to do little. Low quality oil is completely worthless, though, too. That may be a factor. I doubt I would get any benefit from carnosine and seem to get no benefit from aceto-carnalyne, but they are already suffiently present in mat so unless I have some bad conversion gene I dount I would.

From everything I have heard *finil and guanfacine and all ritalin variants are really not very good for actual focus, which for me is what I need. I don;t have hyperactivity.

The tyrosine definitely helps. The l-dopa, well it increases dopamine for sure, but it does not seem to help my symptoms at all.

All the choline drugs I think I will drop for now. You can go too far with those. I am sure most of the *racetams have similar effects to piracetam, though.

Ah well, I guess I have probaby gotten all I can from supplements until I get a chance to add them in and out singly some day. I have heard that vyvanse is te best stim for raw focus and it also seems like it would cause less upset stomach, so I will try to get that next,

I really don't think deficiency is a requirement to get benefits from supplementing. Supplementing may be desirabe with a myraid of helpful physiological effects, and cause very high and otherwise abnormal levels of certain compounds. In the same way, there is no considered deficiency for drugs like ritalin, or galantamine, even though these substances can cause beneficial physiological changes.

You just can't make the conclusion that because a substance is available in food you eat, then supplementing would not be helpful. Even if it is available in comparabile amounts in food. For example, when I eat a pound of chicken I don't get anything resembling the effects that I would experience from just 500 mg of tryptophan.

Additionally, if you hope to benefit from research, then it is very important to mimick the experment setup. In one ALCAR study for ADHD, there was no mention of eating a certain meat with ALCAR, but instead taking pure ALCAR in dosages of 500-1500 mg/day depending on body weight, for a benefit in the inattentive subtype in children age 5-12 after 16 weeks of treatment.

Acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC) in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder: a multi-site, placebo-controlled pilot trial.

Edited by mystery, 20 August 2008 - 06:36 PM.

[bgwithadd]

Yeah, but in that study most people seemingly got zero benefit and a few got a high benefit, so it's probably people who have a defective gene somewhere or a bad diet who do benefit and that's why I probably benefit so much more from fish oil than many seem to.

Not all supplements affect everyone the same, was my point. I'm sure I will try the carnosine later but the alcar does not seem to do much, really. I haven't really determined very well what's working from what I am taking already, aside from the fish oil and the solaray 'sharp mind' stuff. Also the B vitamins do seem to help me. Once I do that a bit more then I will look for new supplements, but really it looks lie I have tried most everything already.

[mystery]

Yeah, but in that study most people seemingly got zero benefit and a few got a high benefit, so it's probably people who have a defective gene somewhere or a bad diet who do benefit and that's why I probably benefit so much more from fish oil than many seem to.

Not all supplements affect everyone the same, was my point. I'm sure I will try the carnosine later but the alcar does not seem to do much, really. I haven't really determined very well what's working from what I am taking already, aside from the fish oil and the solaray 'sharp mind' stuff. Also the B vitamins do seem to help me. Once I do that a bit more then I will look for new supplements, but really it looks lie I have tried most everything already.

Yeah, but in that study most people seemingly got zero benefit and a few got a high benefit

I don't know how you come to this conclusion. Can you please explain? It was the ADHD predominently inattentive (PI) subtype that appeared to benefit, not just a random segment of ADHDers according to the summary.

so it's probably people who have a defective gene somewhere or a bad diet who do benefit

The summary says nothing about genes or diet. A million other hypothesis could be proposed, in addition this is not very relevent. Sorry if this sounds demeaning, but you are making assumptions, and this may be at least in part a result of ADHD-like symptoms. I have problems with my brain shifting around and spewing up all sorts of ideas, but now I can identify that fact. Slow down, and try and focus on just one idea---the possiblity that supplementing ALCAR may help treat ADHD PI patients.

and that's why I probably benefit so much more from fish oil than many seem to.

Another conclusion based on assumptions.

Not all supplements affect everyone the same, was my point.

I definitely agree based on ancedotal evidence.

but really it looks lie I have tried most everything already.

I could almost say the same thing, but I never allowed certain supplements time to work. For example, I tried ALCAR on two occasions, and concluded that it wouldn't help. I would go from one supplement to the next, in an ADHD like manner, quickly getting bored when not experiencing some sort of transformation. Now, I'm re-evaluating many of them, and I'm getting some very interesting results.

Edited by mystery, 20 August 2008 - 10:21 PM.