180 replies to this topic

[CobaltThoriumG]

Well my wife went to the doctor today and when she got to discussing diet, she mentioned she used olive oil and coconut oil in some food preparations. When he heard she was using coconut oil he practically flipped his lid - suggesting it was the worst thing she could possibly eat. He said he has read "recent studies". Knowing how pervasive the anti-fat myths are among health professionals, I think he was just being reactionary (and "following" the crowd). Any ideas why he would go ballistic? Any recent studies?

What I have seen from many studies regarding coconut oil and fat in general is that they don't control for sugar/carbs or other ingredients. With regards to the milk shake and carrot cake experiment - why didn't they just have the people consume straight oil?

He might be assuming it's hydrogenated coconut oil.

[woly]

Well my wife went to the doctor today and when she got to discussing diet, she mentioned she used olive oil and coconut oil in some food preparations. When he heard she was using coconut oil he practically flipped his lid - suggesting it was the worst thing she could possibly eat. He said he has read "recent studies". Knowing how pervasive the anti-fat myths are among health professionals, I think he was just being reactionary (and "following" the crowd). Any ideas why he would go ballistic? Any recent studies?

What I have seen from many studies regarding coconut oil and fat in general is that they don't control for sugar/carbs or other ingredients. With regards to the milk shake and carrot cake experiment - why didn't they just have the people consume straight oil?

Well i dont know about any recent studies but i still am of the opinion that there is not much evidence either way on whether coconut oil is heart healthy. All anyone keeps linking me to is two poor quality studies that suggest its ok.

[niner]

I don't think coconut oil gets hydrogenated, because it's almost all saturated anyway. If you fully hydrogenate an unsaturated oil, it gets turned into a saturated oil.

Virgin coconut oil is not processed. Organic and virgin may be the labels indicating non-hydrogenation, I think.

But coconut oil can be processed and that processing means it is hydrogenated.

It turns out that we were both wrong on this. Coconut oil does have a small amount of unsaturated fatty acid, so it can be and sometimes is hydrogenated to raise its melting point. However, this is not necessarily related to virginity. Even virgin coconut oil is processed in order to liberate it from the coconut, but that processing does not include hydrogenation. "Refined" coconut oil is processed in ways that remove the characteristic odor (which I happen to like), but these processes do not include hydrogenation. If coconut oil is hydrogenated, then it is called (not unsurprisingly) "hydrogenated coconut oil". The following it the relevant text from the Wikipedia article on coconut oil.

Virgin coconut oil

Virgin coconut oil is derived from fresh coconuts (rather than dried, as in copra). Most oils marketed as "virgin" are produced one of three ways:

1. Quick-drying of fresh coconut meat, which is then used to press out the oil.
2. Wet-milling (coconut milk). With this method, the oil is extracted from fresh coconut meat without drying first. "Coconut milk" is expressed first by pressing. The oil is then further separated from the water. Methods which can be used to separate the oil from the water include boiling, fermentation, refrigeration, enzymes and mechanical centrifuge.
3. Wet-milling (direct micro expelling). In this process, the oil is extracted from fresh coconut meat after the adjustment of the water content, then the pressing of the coconut flesh results in the direct extraction of free-flowing oil.

In contrast to olive oil, coconut oil has no world or governing body to set a standard definition or set of guidelines to classify the oil as "virgin". The Philippines has established a Department of Science and Technology (DOST) governmental standard.[5]

Refined oil
Coconuts sundried in Kozhikode, Kerala for making copra, which is used for making coconut oil

Refined coconut oil is referred to in the coconut industry as RBD (refined, bleached, and deodorized) coconut oil. The starting point is "copra", the dried coconut meat. Copra can be made by smoke drying, sun drying, or kiln drying. The unrefined coconut oil extracted from copra (called "crude coconut oil") is not suitable for consumption[citation needed] and must be refined. A recently developed method for extraction of "a high quality" coconut oil involves the enzymatic action of alpha-amylase, polygalacturonases and proteases on diluted coconut paste.[6]

Hydrogenated oil

Coconut oil is often partially or fully hydrogenated to increase its melting point in warmer temperatures. This increases the amount of saturated fat present in the oil, and may produce trans fats.

[Mind]

There doesn't seem to be any obvious data suggesting that it is bad, bad, bad....except for the fact that it is saturated fat. Most doctors and dietitians treat saturated fat like it is poison.

[stephen_b]

Mind, you might want to see the postings Saturated Fat and Health: a Brief Literature Review (Part I and Part II) from over at the Whole Health Source blog.

StephenB

Edited by stephen_b, 16 April 2009 - 05:54 PM.

[Mind]

Thanks Steven. Great blog there. A good review of the history of research involving saturated fat. Doesn't seem to be much in the research history, certainly not enough to create such a religious dogma against saturated fat.

[torrential]

Question for Mind (and anyone else here who's doctor freaks out at their nonstandard regimens): Is this doctor otherwise supportive of your wife's dietary and lifestyle choices? If he is, then mutual information sharing is in order (I'm sure we'd all like to see the "recent studies" on the evils of raw coconut oil). If he's not, it might be time to find a new doctor.

[Mind]

Sorry, I can't really discuss much else except that he freaked out about coconut oil (we use the virgin stuff).

[Brainbox]

I think the established diet "authorities" could have the following position on this, which is ligitimate from their point of view I guess. Al kind of cohort studies do point towards the direction that saturated fats are bad. We all know that cohort studies have some level of inaccuracy due to not being able to correct for a lot of other parameters that have a lot of influence besides just the one that is measured. Furthermore, these types of studies are able to conclude on correlation, not on causation. On the other hand, the studies that do test for causative relations are limited since they are executed on subjects (in vivo) that are not human, resulting in an extrapolation difficulty towards human applicability. Cell level studies do have even more distance as seen from practical human perspective.

Another issue that is important is the genetic make-up of humans (or any other species for that matter). In animal studies, as far as I do understand (I'm not a bio-professional), "standardised" animals, in most cases mice, are used to create a population of subjects that are consistent in their genetic make-up. That way, the problem of statistical insignificant results (like in normal cohort studies) due to genetic variation can be corrected, but at the same time it still does not increase the possibility to extrapolate to a practical human like you or me.

So, both forms of studies do have their problems and if looked at it without any level of subtlety, none of these types of studies are applicable to our daily individual lives.

So, what do we take for granted? It's my opinion that all types of studies should be taken into account in deciding to try a diet or supplement. If you find something worthwhile to try, do it, but monitor your health up to a affordable level. It all comes down to the level of risk you are willing to take to pursue your health. It's a remarkable and interesting paradox; taking risk to increase your health. If you go with the flow, you know as an approximate mean where you will end. If you do not go with the flow, you do step outside the box, resulting in disbelieve and ridicule. But you do ow it to yourself to be aware of the risks and deal with them, i.e. to take measures against them. Like doing blood work periodically. Or sign up with a genetic service to find out as soon as possible how the statistics should be bended towards your individual genetic constitution. The problem however, is that not much diet related data is available as of yet.

Back to the average doctor, that in addition to the "stay within the box" forces from the medical environment he is in, also has a fear for being sued if he gives a bad advice. Do not expect anything progressive from that area, just use them to your advantage. And, if possible, try to find the intelligent ones that unfortunately are the exception.

[torrential]

Sorry, I can't really discuss much else except that he freaked out about coconut oil (we use the virgin stuff).

Of course, and I apologize: I shouldn't have phrased it as a direct question.

I no longer put up with service providers whose views differ significantly from my own when their mode of discourse is not constructive. Agreeing to disagree is swell; "I'm the doctor thus you don't know anything" is not. If a doctor I liked and respected told me about "recent studies" contradicting something I felt I understood reasonably well, I'd insist on the references and share with him some of my own.

Me and my family are way outside of the box in the same ways as many folks here (plenty of high quality fats including EVCO, minimal carbs, no concern with dietary cholesterol, intermittent fasting, a supplementation regimen well beyond One-A-Day, requests for blood work far beyond the basics, confoundingly good health for someone with such a lousy diet, etc). I don't expect any real support from those who live within the box but some doctors are quite interested in the view on the other side.

Brainbox put the matter quite eloquently. Well said.

[Shannon Vyff]

I watched an interview with a mother of two genius children children (went to college in early teens, were reading college level in first grade etc.) and I was struck by the fact that she said she drank coconut milk every day, she came from a Hawaiian background and I didn't put two and two together till later when I was researching coconut oil on Mercola (years later) and experimenting with adding into my diet. I think it is great, gives energy--but should be used in moderation--if I eat too much I break out in a red rash on my face and chest, could just be my Danish background. I know my kids love it, when I make muffins I use coconut oil. In fact I use it when I make CR human lab chow mega muffins, instead of olive oil http://www.cron-web....um/about89.html If I carry another pregnancy myself, I'll make sure to drink fresh coconut milk daily (along with liberal amounts of fish oil ).

[Mind]

the run of the mill doctor does have a strict framework within which to work, and I wasn't there to hear him impugn coconut oil. Just heard it from my wife after the fact, but it was similar to reactions I have seen in the past. The health care consuming public is getting more savvy. I don't claim to know everything, but I am not ignorant of the most recent research, therapies, or nutrition. My feeling is that doctors will need to adapt a bit and become collaborators with their patients to ensure the best outcomes.

And just to be clear, my wife is not suffering any major illness.

[DukeNukem]

I eat a half cup of coconut oil a day, and have been wolfing it down like that for years. Here's how I mostly eat it:

I'll melt several cups worth in a bowl that's place in a larger pan of hot water. Once melted, I add 10 big scoops of unsweetened vanilla flavored whey powder. I also add an ounce or so of EVOO. I mix it thoroughly with a whisker thingy, and then quickly put the bowl in the freezer so it hardens before the when settles to the bottom.

A few hours later I take the bowl out for the night. Next day it's ready at room temp. I then break off a 5-10 gram piece of dark chocolate, and heap onto that a big teaspoon of my coconut/whey goodness. OMG delicious!!!! I'll eat this 4-6 times a day. I also eat a lot of foods made with Thai coconut milk, which is very high is saturated fat -- one 13.5 fl oz can (a normal soup can size) has 70 grams of saturated fat. I use this coconut milk in my coffee, too.

I've got a lot of friends, family and co-workers all doing this.

[imarobot]

I eat a half cup of coconut oil a day, and have been wolfing it down like that for years. Here's how I mostly eat it:

I'll melt several cups worth in a bowl that's place in a larger pan of hot water. Once melted, I add 10 big scoops of unsweetened vanilla flavored whey powder. I also add an ounce or so of EVOO. I mix it thoroughly with a whisker thingy, and then quickly put the bowl in the freezer so it hardens before the when settles to the bottom.

A few hours later I take the bowl out for the night. Next day it's ready at room temp. I then break off a 5-10 gram piece of dark chocolate, and heap onto that a big teaspoon of my coconut/whey goodness. OMG delicious!!!! I'll eat this 4-6 times a day. I also eat a lot of foods made with Thai coconut milk, which is very high is saturated fat -- one 13.5 fl oz can (a normal soup can size) has 70 grams of saturated fat. I use this coconut milk in my coffee, too.

I've got a lot of friends, family and co-workers all doing this.

I'm a fan of the coconut oil / whey combo. Gotta try the coconut milk. One new recipe I'm liking is mixing some Now Foods organic chocolate powder, xylitol and/or stevia, magnesium citrate, and unused coffee grounds with the coconut oil. Sounds funky but tastes great.

[CobaltThoriumG]

I eat a half cup of coconut oil a day, and have been wolfing it down like that for years. Here's how I mostly eat it:

I'll melt several cups worth in a bowl that's place in a larger pan of hot water. Once melted, I add 10 big scoops of unsweetened vanilla flavored whey powder. I also add an ounce or so of EVOO. I mix it thoroughly with a whisker thingy, and then quickly put the bowl in the freezer so it hardens before the when settles to the bottom.

A few hours later I take the bowl out for the night. Next day it's ready at room temp. I then break off a 5-10 gram piece of dark chocolate, and heap onto that a big teaspoon of my coconut/whey goodness. OMG delicious!!!! I'll eat this 4-6 times a day. I also eat a lot of foods made with Thai coconut milk, which is very high is saturated fat -- one 13.5 fl oz can (a normal soup can size) has 70 grams of saturated fat. I use this coconut milk in my coffee, too.

I've got a lot of friends, family and co-workers all doing this.

I'm a fan of the coconut oil / whey combo. Gotta try the coconut milk. One new recipe I'm liking is mixing some Now Foods organic chocolate powder, xylitol and/or stevia, magnesium citrate, and unused coffee grounds with the coconut oil. Sounds funky but tastes great.

That's an interesting idea to make a chocolate with coconut oil instead of cacao butter. I recently tried using a little bit of coconut oil in place of some cacao butter but didn't notice much of a change in taste or consistency.

Edited by CobaltThoriumG, 03 May 2009 - 01:02 AM.

[ajnast4r]

dietitians treat saturated fat like it is poison.

yea im not sure why that is... saturated fats were clumped into one group in my lectures. it was specified that animal fats cause most of the problem in the liver, and vegetable fats when kept within DRI's don't cause problems and may benefit cholesterol ratios.

[hamishm00]

Feck, you've got me hooked on this stuff.

The Jarrow was the better tasting, but the Nutiva comes in a huge tub and it's not bad.

It's funny how coconut oil has the bad rap because of the fact that most of the oils on the market have gone through hydrogenation.

This stuff is amazing with 85% lindt dark chocolate. I just spoon it in with a big slab of the chocolate. awesome.

[drmz]

Antioxidant capacity and phenolic acids of virgin coconut oil.

Marina AM, Man YB, Nazimah SA, Amin I.
Department of Food Technology, Faculty of Food Science and Technology, Universiti Putra Malaysia, Selangor, D.E, Malaysia.
The antioxidant properties of virgin coconut oil produced through chilling and fermentation were investigated and compared with refined, bleached and deodorized coconut oil. Virgin coconut oil showed better antioxidant capacity than refined, bleached and deodorized coconut oil. The virgin coconut oil produced through the fermentation method had the strongest scavenging effect on 1,1-diphenyl-2-picrylhydrazyl and the highest antioxidant activity based on the beta-carotene-linoleate bleaching method. However, virgin coconut oil obtained through the chilling method had the highest reducing power. The major phenolic acids detected were ferulic acid and p-coumaric acid. Very high correlations were found between the total phenolic content and scavenging activity (r=0.91), and between the total phenolic content and reducing power (r=0.96). There was also a high correlation between total phenolic acids and beta-carotene bleaching activity. The study indicated that the contribution of antioxidant capacity in virgin coconut oil could be due to phenolic compounds.

[Skötkonung]

The purported dangers of saturated fats such as coconut oil has more to do with dietary context rather than intrinsic properties of the fat itself. Specifically, the higher your total carbohydrate intake is, the worse saturated fat is for your health.

To quote Dr Eades:

Lowered insulin levels open the doors to the fat cells, allowing fat to come out to be burned. If your dietary intake meets all your body's energy needs, however, your body will simply use these dietary calories and leave the calories in your fat cells alone. And you won't lose. But lowered insulin levels pretty much prevents fat from going into the fat cells, so even if your caloric intake goes up - as long as your insulin stays low - you won't store more fat in the fat cells. And your weight will stay the same.

The phenomenon is pretty vividly demonstrated in people with type I diabetes, the type of diabetes in which no (or very little) insulin is produced. Most of the time these people get their diagnosis of diabetes when they come to the doctor because they are losing weight like crazy while eating everything in sight. It's not all that unusual for a person with new onset type I diabetes (who isn't aware of having the disorder) to lose 40 pounds in a month. These people have no insulin and a lot of glucagon. Without the insulin they can't store fat, so they dump fat from their fat cells. Much of this fat is converted to ketones since there is no insulin to shut off the process. The glucagon makes them convert muscle protein to sugar even though their blood sugar levels are already sky high. The end result is that these people have elevated levels of sugar in their blood and elevated levels of ketones. They dump both sugar and ketones in their urine, but not enough to account for the amount of weight they lose. The combination of calories lost to ketones and urine can add up to a few pounds per month, but not 40. Other factors are at work. The body has the ability to waste calories, but doesn't usually do so unless it has to. In the case of type I diabetes it has to. And people with uncontrolled type I diabetes eat and eat and eat and lose and lose and lose.

However, if you have high insulin levels, this dietary fat is forced into your fat cells for storage, not to mention all the other hazards of high insulin and blood glucose levels. Unfortunately, when most studies are conducted, researchers use the standard American diet (SAD) as a reference point and simply add more fat. This is not the best dietary context for a high fat diet. For those of you eating high sugar chocolate (yes, even 80% dark has considerable amounts of sugar) with added coconut oil, you could be causing yourself more harm than good. To maximize the benefits of coconut oil, substitute sugar for stevia and keep your total dietary carbohydrate level low.

[Johan]

I found this particular part of the post you linked to interesting:

You will ditch these extra calories by a number of means. Your caloric-wasting systems will be going full blast. You will be futile cycling, increasing the mitochondrial proton leak, increasing the number of uncoupling proteins, and spending extra energy converting protein to glucose. You will also increase your NEAT. What’s NEAT? It’s Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis. Your total energy expenditure is composed of four things: resting metabolic rate, the thermogenic effect from food (the energy required to metabolize what you eat), thermogenesis from exercise and activity, and NEAT. NEAT is from all the little things you do without conscious effort - fidgeting, moving more, moving more briskly, stretching, standing more, etc. These are activities that you don’t really think about but that you perform to dissipate extra energy. It’s why you feel more like exercising after you get going on a low-carb diet; it’s why you perceive your energy levels to be higher. And it’s why you’re less hungry. Your body has access to its stored fat and is using it and even wasting it. As Key’s showed in his semi-starvation studies, subjects on low-fat, reduced-calorie diets pretty much got rid of most of their NEAT in an effort to conserve energy. The opposite happens on a higher-calorie low-carb diet.

Would this still happen on a low-carb, reduced-calorie diet? I would assume that processes such as NEAT and futile cycling will be reduced, in order to conserve energy.

Edited by Johan, 26 June 2009 - 08:01 AM.

[Centurion]

http://www.virgincoconutoil.co.uk/ I own this product and while it is quite expensive - Considering the benefits duke has listed I will consider it worthwhile. I take 10ml a day (scoop it out heat it in a shot glass to liquefy)

[TheFountain]

I saw some spectrum 'organic virgin coconut oil' in the health food section of my local supermarket. Is it any good or must the label say 'extra virgin' on it?

[TheFountain]

The purported dangers of saturated fats such as coconut oil has more to do with dietary context rather than intrinsic properties of the fat itself. Specifically, the higher your total carbohydrate intake is, the worse saturated fat is for your health.

*refined carbohydrates*

I think people eating lentils, chick peas and vegetables are okay when consuming a moderate to high fat intake, especially when consuming fish oil daily.

[Skötkonung]

I saw some spectrum 'organic virgin coconut oil' in the health food section of my local supermarket. Is it any good or must the label say 'extra virgin' on it?

Yeah I actually own a container of this brand coconut oil (spectrum organic). I tried using it initially with some chocolates and later in a Asian themed meal and it made my stomach hurt for about 24hours. I guess I simply can't tolerate coconut oil :( Tastes good, though

[niner]

I saw some spectrum 'organic virgin coconut oil' in the health food section of my local supermarket. Is it any good or must the label say 'extra virgin' on it?

I've used Spectrum. Tastes great and no stomach ache for me. Recently I've been using the Whole Foods house brand because it's a lot cheaper. I've had two bottles so far. One was distinctly less flavor than Spectrum, the other was pretty close. You can even get Spectrum at WalMart, but it's still expensive.... I'm not sure that "extra" virgin is even defined for coconut oil.

[TheFountain]

I saw some spectrum 'organic virgin coconut oil' in the health food section of my local supermarket. Is it any good or must the label say 'extra virgin' on it?

I've used Spectrum. Tastes great and no stomach ache for me. Recently I've been using the Whole Foods house brand because it's a lot cheaper. I've had two bottles so far. One was distinctly less flavor than Spectrum, the other was pretty close. You can even get Spectrum at WalMart, but it's still expensive.... I'm not sure that "extra" virgin is even defined for coconut oil.

Actually the label doesn't even say virgin on it, it says 'spectrum organic refined coconut oil'. Is it bad?

[tunt01]

spectrum is a pretty reputable company. it's part of the hain celestial food group. i've visited some of their plants. they are pretty high quality.

[TheFountain]

spectrum is a pretty reputable company. it's part of the hain celestial food group. i've visited some of their plants. they are pretty high quality.

Their organic olive oil is definitely good stuff. I just think 'organic refined' is an oxymoron.

[niner]

spectrum is a pretty reputable company. it's part of the hain celestial food group. i've visited some of their plants. they are pretty high quality.

Their organic olive oil is definitely good stuff. I just think 'organic refined' is an oxymoron.

No, it's not an oxymoron. When applied to coconut oil, it has a specific meaning: The coconuts are organic, and the oil has been refined. The refined oil will not have much of the coconut smell that a lot of people like about it. If you want to use it for sauteing at high temperatures and you don't want to impart a coconut flavor to the food, it's a good choice. I prefer the unrefined oil because I like the coconut flavor, myself. The refined oil has more heat stability, and probably less phytochemicals that you might prefer to be left in, like tocotrienols.

[TheFountain]

spectrum is a pretty reputable company. it's part of the hain celestial food group. i've visited some of their plants. they are pretty high quality.

Their organic olive oil is definitely good stuff. I just think 'organic refined' is an oxymoron.

No, it's not an oxymoron. When applied to coconut oil, it has a specific meaning: The coconuts are organic, and the oil has been refined. The refined oil will not have much of the coconut smell that a lot of people like about it. If you want to use it for sauteing at high temperatures and you don't want to impart a coconut flavor to the food, it's a good choice. I prefer the unrefined oil because I like the coconut flavor, myself. The refined oil has more heat stability, and probably less phytochemicals that you might prefer to be left in, like tocotrienols.

yea i'd definitely prefer the coconut flavor because my intention is to eat it raw. It's a shame spectrum assumes people just want to cook with it as opposed to enjoying it raw. Or that supermarkets tend only to sell the refined cooking type oils. I will be purchasing some less refined stuff from iherb i guess.