1230 replies to this topic

[ceridwen]

I think my exposure must have come from non organic fruit,meat and loads of chocolate!

[mag1]

That's interesting apparently vegetarian diets are typically deficient in both copper and zinc. Wonder if some of them might get into trouble

with copper from other sources, such as the water supply and then not have a means of bringing it down with zinc.

 

"A 3-ounce serving of cooked beef liver contains 4.5 milligrams of zinc and 12,049 micrograms of copper."

Might want to stay away from beef liver.

[mag1]

Yeah, chocolate seems like one to avoid.

 

http://www.dietandfi...n-chocolate.php

[ceridwen]

No copper in Rollos? Can't be right.

[ceridwen]

I tried to bring it down with zinc this year. I didn't think it made a difference.Possibly because of the chocolate. I have taken 50mg zinc tonight. How much do you think I'd need to get it down?

[mag1]

I would be careful when dosing with zinc. 50 mg of zinc is quite a bit.

You need to be careful that you are not overdoing it.

Probably be best to have medical guidance.

 

Perhaps you could combine this with your copper labs.

[ceridwen]

Parabiosis is out of the question? I wanted to get on the trials.

[ceridwen]

I was on 30mg zinc in the summer. It didn't help. Maybe it's too late?

[mag1]

Might be able to CRISPR the eotaxin-1 variant rs1129844

[mag1]

Typically you think with Alzheimer's that once symptoms emerge decreasing amyloid would not be very effective.

Yet in what is considered to be one of the most successful AD trials, chelating metals appeared to help patients with

mild to moderate AD.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3986683/

[ceridwen]

My Aunt had chelation therapy. She still died of it.
She was at the mild stage for a very long time. The nearest chelation to me is in Ireland

[mag1]

If you have a strong family history of dementia, then you should try and figure out what the genetic driver might be.

Ancestry.com allows you to easily find your near family members. This would allow you to greatly narrow down the genetic search space.

 

There are many different causes of dementia. Knowing exactly what is causing your impairment might greatly help you.

[ceridwen]

Zinc is a chelator?
She was my Aunt by marriage

[mag1]

Zinc brings down your copper levels.

Yet, I am worried that it is more complicated than that.

Researchers have been aware of the copper angle for many many years.

 

The big new insight that has been introduced here is about the copper-2.

Even that might be fairly stale as well.

[ceridwen]

Well maybe zinc combined with low sugar and low carb you know the Alzheimers trials last year at Sanford University reversed it in some mild disease. Anti aging firewalls did good coverage on it.
What could I eat?

[mag1]

http://newsroom.ucla...-for-first-time

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23332672

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26594639

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/26097723

 

[niner]

From what I have been reading on the internet virtually everyone now has copper plumbing.It would be very interesting to know the dementia rates in your community.

 

Not everyone has copper.  It depends where you live and how old your house is.  In Japan, they have historically shunned copper plumbing, I've read.  In Europe, they've been using PEX (cross-linked polyethylene) for ~30 years.  PEX is now taking over in America; it's cheaper, much easier to install, and flows better than traditional plumbing.  Importantly, it's non-toxic.  I replaced most of the copper plumbing in my house with PEX, but the line from the street to the house is still copper.  Some people have lead, so it could be worse...  You could use a reverse osmosis filter, but that would also remove ions that you'd like to keep in your water.  I use a Brita Pitcher for drinking water.  Brita has recently upgraded their filters to include an ion exchange resin that removes some of the nastier metals, including copper.

 

Don't go nuts with the zinc.  There is such a thing as too much zinc, and copper deficiency is not a state you want to be in.  Read the labels for all the supplements you take.  I found that a bone supplement I used to use, Bone Up from Jarrow, contained 3mg copper in a daily dose.  A multi that I used for a long time also had 3mg copper.  I got a lot more from those two sources than I did from my plumbing.  Now I rely on food to provide the copper I need, and I take 15mg zinc daily.

[resveratrol_guy]

I'm with niner on this one: reverse osmosis is not the way to go. Paleolithically, we drank alkaline stream water. The trick is to mimic that, at which tap water generally excels, without the copper, lead, manganese, or iron. So this redesigned Brita filter sounds interesting to me. Aquasana is another great filter company to investigate for this selective ion-sparing purpose. Or if you have the money, an alkaline water machine is the ultimate solution.

As to zinc, the tolerable upper intake is generally reported as 40 mg (apparently due to the threat of copper defficiency!). In my case, though, 50 mg of zinc gluconate leaves me feeling sharper than the usual 11 mg of zinc oxide in "idiot" vitamins (Centrum and copycats). So while I certainly would not advocate overdosing on any form of zinc, upping your intake while under close medical surveillance might pay off. I'm not sure about zinc citrate, but it can't possibly be as useless as zinc oxide.

 

Note that Quest Diagnostics USA offers a variety of copper tests.

@ceridwen: If you tested high copper (150% of normal, if I understand you correctly), then my first question would be, was this so-called "free copper" as discussed in the study, or total copper? Yes, chocolate is high in copper, but I would expect that to be mostly copper-1, and in any event, the epicatechins would tend to bind copper-2 and escort it out of the body. (Let's remember, too, that the oldest 2 people to ever live ate lots of chocolate and suffered no dementia.) So if you're truly high in copper-2, I would suspect some other source. Are you taking an idiot vitamin? Personally, I switched to LEF 2-per-day and haven't looked back (just beware the beta carotene, lung cancer patients). And yeah, chelation would be high on my list. (Just go to a competent practitioner, because overly agressive EDTA therapy can crash plasma calcium, which is a recoverable but life-threatening condition.)
 

@mag1: Thanks for those SNPs! It's been a long time indeed since I've read such damning evidence for a single purported cause of a chronic illness, perhaps since the discovery of helicobacter pylori. This is a class action lawsuit waiting to happen. While I can't find your proposed CRISPR target in my 23andMe data, the concept sounds compelling, perhaps a job for BioViva.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 13 December 2015 - 08:12 AM.

[alc]

Parabiosis is out of the question? I wanted to get on the trials.

 

@ ceridwen - were you referring to Alkahest (started by Tony Wyss-Coray) human trials?

 

http://www.alkahest.com/

 

here is the ClinicalTrials.gov link:

 

The PLasma for Alzheimer SymptoM Amelioration (PLASMA) Study

 

https://clinicaltria...alkahest&rank=1

[mag1]

Niner's post has me thinking: If these PEX pipes have been in use for 30 years in Europe, then should there not now be a highly prominent

decline in dementia rates there? We could have a great opportunity to test the proposed role of copper-2 in AD. In most instances testing such

hypotheses is nearly impossible, though 30 years of PEX piping should give us a good indication.

 

 

 

resguy, they first found the rs1129844 SNP in the Colombian early onset cohort and replicated it in the States in LOAD

http://www.nature.co...mp2015131a.html

 

Below are proxies that you can use for rs1129844 as the 23andme v4 gene chip does not have it.

The homozygous minor genotype was found to delay onset of AD by almost 7 years.

 

rs1129844 rs17735961 554 1.000 1.000 I2,I5,I6,I6Q,IM,IMD,CYT,OQ,AxM,IWQ,OE,O24,O28,O54,O5E,OEE chr17 29636453
rs1129844 rs3091324 11978 1.000 1.000 AN,A5,A6 chr17 29625029

 

I simply do not understand why more effort has not been devoted to Age of Onset of AD.

Truly large amounts of money have been devoted to GWAS studies in AD involving up t o 100,000 people which have found

variants that confer almost no meaningful increased risk. Yet, the study cited below with only about 100 people found a whole

bunch more variants that substantially change the onset of AD.

 

GPR20 (rs36092215, P=3.36 × 10−26), A/G versus G/G 7.5 years
TRIM22 (rs12364019, P=8.78 × 10−19), ? seems like there is 0 difference
FCRL5 (rs16838748, P=8.79 × 10−14), G/T versus G/G 7.2 years
AOAH (rs12701506, P=7.26 × 10−12), G/G and G/A versus A/A 5.9 years
PINLYP (rs2682585, P=2.55 × 10−10), A/A versus G/A and G/G 2.6 years
IFI16 (rs62621173, P=1.54 × 10−9), C/C versus C/T 4.6 years
RC3H1 (rs10798302, P=3.80 × 10−8), A/A versus A/G 1.3 years
DFNA5 (rs754554, P=8.32 × 10−6) T/T versus G/T and G/G 10.5 years

Edited by mag1, 13 December 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[ceridwen]

I treating mine as Lyme disease and am now trying to break biofilms. My tinnitus seems to be responding by giving herx symptoms. No reason why I shouldn't attack it on many levels. Some people think neurological diseases might be caused by Lyme. Or maybe Alzheimer's is Lyme. It responds but might take many years to clear up.

[resveratrol_guy]

Niner's post has me thinking: If these PEX pipes have been in use for 30 years in Europe, then should there not now be a highly prominent

decline in dementia rates there? We could have a great opportunity to test the proposed role of copper-2 in AD. In most instances testing such

hypotheses is nearly impossible, though 30 years of PEX piping should give us a good indication.

 

resguy, they first found the rs1129844 SNP in the Colombian early onset cohort and replicated it in the States in LOAD

http://www.nature.co...mp2015131a.html

 

Below are proxies that you can use for rs1129844 as the 23andme v4 gene chip does not have it.

The homozygous minor genotype was found to delay onset of AD by almost 7 years.

 

rs1129844 rs17735961 554 1.000 1.000 I2,I5,I6,I6Q,IM,IMD,CYT,OQ,AxM,IWQ,OE,O24,O28,O54,O5E,OEE chr17 29636453
rs1129844 rs3091324 11978 1.000 1.000 AN,A5,A6 chr17 29625029

 

I simply do not understand why more effort has not been devoted to Age of Onset of AD.

Truly large amounts of money have been devoted to GWAS studies in AD involving up t o 100,000 people which have found

variants that confer almost no meaningful increased risk. Yet, the study cited below with only about 100 people found a whole

bunch more variants that substantially change the onset of AD.

 

GPR20 (rs36092215, P=3.36 × 10−26), A/G versus G/G 7.5 years
TRIM22 (rs12364019, P=8.78 × 10−19), ? seems like there is 0 difference
FCRL5 (rs16838748, P=8.79 × 10−14), G/T versus G/G 7.2 years
AOAH (rs12701506, P=7.26 × 10−12), G/G and G/A versus A/A 5.9 years
PINLYP (rs2682585, P=2.55 × 10−10), A/A versus G/A and G/G 2.6 years
IFI16 (rs62621173, P=1.54 × 10−9), C/C versus C/T 4.6 years
RC3H1 (rs10798302, P=3.80 × 10−8), A/A versus A/G 1.3 years
DFNA5 (rs754554, P=8.32 × 10−6) T/T versus G/T and G/G 10.5 years

 

I don't think PEX actually exists in most European homes. Remember, there are parts of Europe where people are living in homes which are literally centuries old. Retrofitting is expensive and sometimes requires layers of approval from historical committees. So you're not likely to get good data for a long time. The problem is also confounded by a plethora of other risk factors, such as low vitamin D in Scandanavia and the high content of white bread and pasta in the Med diet. (IMO the Med diet is pretty much a disaster, save for its one potent ingredient, olive oil.)

 

Nice SNP summary. I can't seem to upgrade my very dated version of 23andMe to one which supports most of them. Thanks to the FDA for shielding my eyes from reality. And even if I had access to the data, the sheer number of SNPs involved means that most of us probably have middle-of-the-road risk. This would be consistent with a low background rate of AD as compared to what we observe in the presence of longterm copper-2 exposure.

[tunt01]

Now I rely on food to provide the copper I need, and I take 15mg zinc daily.

I do exactly the same.

[mag1]

This copper-2 connection is massively scary!

California fought PEX plumbing for a while because they were worried about the health consequences of it.

Wonder when people will start protesting in the streets about the risks of copper plumbing!

 

The article "Speciation of copper in a range of food types by X-ray absorption spectroscopy" Food Chemistry 164(2014) 50-54

found that Cocoa was mainly copper-2 while cashews and sunflowers seeds were almost entirely copper-1.

Everyone, over the holidays: Go nuts!

 

The article mirrored the discussion in the recent article concerning copper-2 and Alzheimer's. For instance, tap water consists entirely of Cu(II), it is not reduced to Cu(I),

and Cu(II) pass directly into the bloodstream.

http://www.mdpi.com/...3/7/12/5513/htm

 

Also "This finding may have important health implications as it has been further shown that the addition of trace amounts of Cu(II) (0.12 ppm) to water given to cholesterol fed rabbits can induce A beta accumulation, including senile plaque-like structures in the hippocampus and temporal lobe, and can significantly retard learning ability."

 

 

This is a massively terrifying development and does greatly clarify what can often be a convoluted narrative of how metals move through the body.

The recent research is hinting at a great simplification:

 

Copper-2 is bad!

End of story.

 

The dosing of copper-2 now being experienced by people through tap water, supplements and probably other secondary sources (such as drinks and some other foods

possibly as a result of food processors using tap water) has never occurred before in all of human history. 

 

Labs to  measure what we are referring to here might not even be available.  

 

 

[ceridwen]

Cocoa is mainly copper2!!!!!*!!!!*****That was my staple food all my life. I really loved chocolate.Dam. Now I'm dying. I used to laugh at the phrase death my chocolate.Let my death be a message to all.

[ceridwen]

That's also why more women get Alzheimer's compared to men. We're all chocaholics to some extent. The scientists actually had the gallery to say it could put off Alzheimer's LIARS!!!!!!! and other explitives.

[ceridwen]

The gall I meant to say. My daughter is having a child and I don't know if I'll be conscious when it's born. I hate the chocolate industry. That's what the Victorians didn't have chocolate. They drank it instead.
Whereas one can just binge on candy bars

[mag1]

It's not so bad!

Now you know what not to do.

 

You also need to realize that the copper-2 angle might relate especially to genetically vulnerable populations.

For instance recent research has found haplotypes in the ATP7B gene especially in the SNPs rs1061472 and

rs732774 that might be particularly vulnerable to copper metabolism overload.

 

Chocolate does have redeeming features.

I think they found that moderate chocolate intake reduces AD risk.

 

Sample Percentage (%) of component fitted N tot Residual b(10 3) Cu(I)-acetate Cu(II)-acetate Cu(I)-cysteine Cu(I)-glutathione Cu(II)-histidine

 

Cashew 48(2)  5(1)    50(1)                       This is a good one only 5% is copper-2

Cocoa   34(2)  28(3)  -          39(4)            This is not so good: the 28% and 39% are both copper-2.

 

It seems that chocolate is one of the higher copper foods and it is mostly copper-2.

Other foods might be higher in copper, though it tends to often be copper-1.

 

Tap water is 100% copper-2.

Sunflower seed actually seems like a badish one at 29% Cu (II).

 

High saturated fat (or meat) levels just make everything worse by increasing absorption.

APOE genotypes 4-->3-->2 have increasing copper processing abilities. 

 

 

Edited by mag1, 15 December 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[ceridwen]

I haven't been genetically tested so I don't know my genotype but I'm reacting as if I have one of those you mention. I want to be vegetarian now knowing it may be too late.

[mag1]

Often it is not one single thing that causes AD, instead a whole bunch of things converge.

 

So, there might be excess copper-2 along with high fat intake along with ATP7B mutations along with low low zinc along with APOE 4 ....

Some people might have all the risk factors and have a truly unbelievable level of risk.

 

Some of the recent AD intervention trials that have used a multi-faceted treatment approach have reversed early dementia.