34 replies to this topic

[nancy_axel]

Good for the PI-ADD type?
Any choline stacking needed?
How long before you start noticing an effect (immediate or does it build with time)?


It seems that Pram & Phenyl are the two nootropics where there isn't a defined consensus on what exactly they do. Pram, apparently good for drive and some focus. Phenyl, for physical resilience and maybe some focus?

I know Pram helps with anxiety so that's good, how about phenylpiracetam?

[luv2increase]

Good for the PI-ADD type?
Any choline stacking needed?
How long before you start noticing an effect (immediate or does it build with time)?


It seems that Pram & Phenyl are the two nootropics where there isn't a defined consensus on what exactly they do. Pram, apparently good for drive and some focus. Phenyl, for physical resilience and maybe some focus?

I know Pram helps with anxiety so that's good, how about phenylpiracetam?

Try fish oil, piracetam, and a choline source. It works well; this coming from experience.

[Ghostrider]

Good for the PI-ADD type?
Any choline stacking needed?
How long before you start noticing an effect (immediate or does it build with time)?


It seems that Pram & Phenyl are the two nootropics where there isn't a defined consensus on what exactly they do. Pram, apparently good for drive and some focus. Phenyl, for physical resilience and maybe some focus?

I know Pram helps with anxiety so that's good, how about phenylpiracetam?

Try fish oil, piracetam, and a choline source. It works well; this coming from experience.

It's very subjective and you will hear different accounts depending on who you talk to. I do recommend the fish oil and choline though. I did notice phenylpiracetam, but it's still kind of subtle, in fact not beyond the region of placebo. I do think it was doing something though, but I did not notice increased focus. More like increased mental energy and it made me stay awake longer than usual. It can cause insomnia.

[nancy_axel]

Good for the PI-ADD type?
Any choline stacking needed?
How long before you start noticing an effect (immediate or does it build with time)?


It seems that Pram & Phenyl are the two nootropics where there isn't a defined consensus on what exactly they do. Pram, apparently good for drive and some focus. Phenyl, for physical resilience and maybe some focus?

I know Pram helps with anxiety so that's good, how about phenylpiracetam?

Try fish oil, piracetam, and a choline source. It works well; this coming from experience.

It's very subjective and you will hear different accounts depending on who you talk to. I do recommend the fish oil and choline though. I did notice phenylpiracetam, but it's still kind of subtle, in fact not beyond the region of placebo. I do think it was doing something though, but I did not notice increased focus. More like increased mental energy and it made me stay awake longer than usual. It can cause insomnia.

Phenylpiracetam faces some serious tolerance issues, so not to be used daily.

[nancy_axel]

is choline needed with pram or phenyl?

[brotherx]

Well - phenyl is loosing its efficiency very quick anyway (after a couple of days if you don't cycle) - but I would supplement choline with both!

"It may be concluded that the mechanism of action of pramiracetam does not appear to be due to a direct action upon DA and 5-HT neurotransmitter systems or various brain receptors. PR (44 and 88 mg/kg i.p.) caused a significant increase in the rate of sodium-dependent high-affinity choline uptake (HACU) into rat hippocampal synptosomes in vitro."
Source: http://www3.intersci...670338/abstract

Institut fur Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Medizinische Akademie Carl Gustav Carus, Dresden, DDR.

With respect to the enhancing effect of nootropics on learning and memory, the influence of some of these drugs on the high affinity choline uptake has been investigated. Meclofenoxate competes with choline uptake in vitro because of its similar side chain; other nootropics are without in vitro effects. A single dose of pramiracetam enhances the choline uptake in cortex and hippocampus. Application of meclofenoxate decreases the uptake of choline. Other nootropics lack acute effects. Possible increases of uptake after repeated dosage disappear within 24 h.

Nancy, maybe, additionally to that - it might be useful to have a look on the thread you've created http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry255953

Cheers

Alex

is choline needed with pram or phenyl?

[nancy_axel]

Well - phenyl is loosing its efficiency very quick anyway (after a couple of days if you don't cycle) - but I would supplement choline with both!

"It may be concluded that the mechanism of action of pramiracetam does not appear to be due to a direct action upon DA and 5-HT neurotransmitter systems or various brain receptors. PR (44 and 88 mg/kg i.p.) caused a significant increase in the rate of sodium-dependent high-affinity choline uptake (HACU) into rat hippocampal synptosomes in vitro."
Source: http://www3.intersci...670338/abstract

Institut fur Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Medizinische Akademie Carl Gustav Carus, Dresden, DDR.

With respect to the enhancing effect of nootropics on learning and memory, the influence of some of these drugs on the high affinity choline uptake has been investigated. Meclofenoxate competes with choline uptake in vitro because of its similar side chain; other nootropics are without in vitro effects. A single dose of pramiracetam enhances the choline uptake in cortex and hippocampus. Application of meclofenoxate decreases the uptake of choline. Other nootropics lack acute effects. Possible increases of uptake after repeated dosage disappear within 24 h.

Nancy, maybe, additionally to that - it might be useful to have a look on the thread you've created http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry255953

Cheers

Alex

is choline needed with pram or phenyl?

brotherx -- about the rapid phenylpiracetam tolerance -- are you speaking from experience or putting things together from other people's experiences?

[wiserd]

I have PI-ADD and HATED piracetam. I took it with lecithin. I literally could not hear myself think. It was scary. I often wonder why that is or what other folks experience.

[brotherx]

Nancy,

both and actually I didn't liked the feeling of the phenyl too much.

Cheers

Alex

Well - phenyl is loosing its efficiency very quick anyway (after a couple of days if you don't cycle) - but I would supplement choline with both!

"It may be concluded that the mechanism of action of pramiracetam does not appear to be due to a direct action upon DA and 5-HT neurotransmitter systems or various brain receptors. PR (44 and 88 mg/kg i.p.) caused a significant increase in the rate of sodium-dependent high-affinity choline uptake (HACU) into rat hippocampal synptosomes in vitro."
Source: http://www3.intersci...670338/abstract

Institut fur Pharmakologie und Toxikologie, Medizinische Akademie Carl Gustav Carus, Dresden, DDR.

With respect to the enhancing effect of nootropics on learning and memory, the influence of some of these drugs on the high affinity choline uptake has been investigated. Meclofenoxate competes with choline uptake in vitro because of its similar side chain; other nootropics are without in vitro effects. A single dose of pramiracetam enhances the choline uptake in cortex and hippocampus. Application of meclofenoxate decreases the uptake of choline. Other nootropics lack acute effects. Possible increases of uptake after repeated dosage disappear within 24 h.

Nancy, maybe, additionally to that - it might be useful to have a look on the thread you've created http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry255953

Cheers

Alex

is choline needed with pram or phenyl?

brotherx -- about the rapid phenylpiracetam tolerance -- are you speaking from experience or putting things together from other people's experiences?

[nancy_axel]

With pram's strong sleep-inducing characteristics some sort of energy supplement is an absolute must -- whether alcar or idebenone. I haven't heard great nootropic effects from idebenone.

[brotherx]

Didn't you came to the conclusion - that you skip the Pram because of unwanted effects?

Cheers

Alex

With pram's strong sleep-inducing characteristics some sort of energy supplement is an absolute must -- whether alcar or idebenone. I haven't heard great nootropic effects from idebenone.

[luv2increase]

Didn't you came to the conclusion - that you skip the Pram because of unwanted effects?

I don't think it knows what it's concluded. She posts so many contradictory posts to herself it is unreal.


So Pram makes her tired which is the absolute opposite effect that you want if you have ADD without hyperactivity.


Does 1 + 1 = 3 or am I confused???

[Wedrifid]

Add is complicated. Plenty of ways to get the symptoms that qualify for that diagnosis. In my case I have no hyperactivity since my ADD tends towards over-focus. For me, a bit of sedation and sleepiness makes me closer to normal/non-add. In Nancy's case... I'd be going with some adaptogens, cognitive behavioral therapy, lots of exercise, some meditation and an anxiety reducing lifestyle. ADD + anxiety is a real bitch of a combo to have. No hope in hell of getting your shit together if you are busy self medicating with anything from addiction, obsessiveness or supplement consumption.

Didn't you came to the conclusion - that you skip the Pram because of unwanted effects?

I don't think it knows what it's concluded. She posts so many contradictory posts to herself it is unreal.


So Pram makes her tired which is the absolute opposite effect that you want if you have ADD without hyperactivity.


Does 1 + 1 = 3 or am I confused???

[hamishm00]

sorry, i feel guilty for saying that she should open up old threads....

What should really happen is you know what....

[nancy_axel]

Didn't you came to the conclusion - that you skip the Pram because of unwanted effects?

I don't think it knows what it's concluded. She posts so many contradictory posts to herself it is unreal.


So Pram makes her tired which is the absolute opposite effect that you want if you have ADD without hyperactivity.


Does 1 + 1 = 3 or am I confused???

They say it might take 6 weeks before noticing noticing the effects of pram .. so although I don't like it at the moment -- I don't want to preemptively give it up .

[jackinbox]

I'm on trial of piracetam. 600mg in the morning and 600mg before bed. I ordered enough for 60 days. I began last week and increased the dosage up to 1200mg yesterday. Nothing to report yet. I take some lecithin with it. It's not clear if choline is needed with pram but I got a slight headache when I tried without choline. I also add some piracetam in the mix but I'm not constant with that one.

[nancy_axel]

I'm on trial of piracetam. 600mg in the morning and 600mg before bed. I ordered enough for 60 days. I began last week and increased the dosage up to 1200mg yesterday. Nothing to report yet. I take some lecithin with it. It's not clear if choline is needed with pram but I got a slight headache when I tried without choline. I also add some piracetam in the mix but I'm not constant with that one.

Its interesting how all the information on Pramiracetam is circulating through PM's and no one is writing about it on the public forum. But thanks everyone, I sincerely appreciate the input I'm getting from my posts investigating this purported 'life changing' racetam. It seems like it got a lot of attention earlier when someone claimed to get photographic memory.

When tabulating everyone's comments together these are the consensus observations I've seen. To put some of this in context, read my previous pram post:
1) more clarity within 30 minutes
2) loss of emotion (strange), within 30 minutes. sometimes people notice interaction to be 'off' and slight depression because of an increase lethargy (pram is mildly depressant, and has definite sedative qualities)
3) improvement of memory (over time 3-6 weeks, not instant)

It seems that pram is very quick in creating a 'whoa' effect -- you feel very different through mitigating emotion and clarity. This whoa effect is like a temporary high -- which may or may not be immediately useful when trying to get work done. Whether its helpful in the short term is doubtful, regardless of the purported strength. If the effects were more powerful than the dent pram can put in your wallet, physicians would likely use it more often than pira in treating patients w/ cognitive defects -- which is more widely used and tested. Just up the dose of pira a little bit and if you don't notice an effect after a few weeks. if that doesn't work out, try pram .. but don't expect a miracle overnight like many people claim on these posts ..

Edited by nancy_axel, 01 October 2008 - 09:44 PM.

[histor]

phenyl-frustratam
Greetings. Just received my phenyl from relentlessimprovement, took 200mg and sat in front of the computer to finish my paper. BUT to no avail. Absolutely nothing. I would really enjoy a slight headache to feel that my 80 bucks did not go to the trash can. Tomorrow I will take 300 mg and let you know about the result.

[histor]

Tried 300 mg yesterday, still nothing noteworthy. Will try 400 mg tomorrow.

[AtticusFinch]

I'm on trial of piracetam. 600mg in the morning and 600mg before bed. I ordered enough for 60 days. I began last week and increased the dosage up to 1200mg yesterday. Nothing to report yet. I take some lecithin with it. It's not clear if choline is needed with pram but I got a slight headache when I tried without choline. I also add some piracetam in the mix but I'm not constant with that one.

Wow, personally I cannot take piracetam before bed. Why do you choose that time, rather than earlier in the day? I find that I cannot sleep if I take it after 6pm; however, I usually feel the effect within 30 minutes of taking the piracetam. Because of the insomnia that it creates, I don't believe its effects are strictly placebo.

By the way, are the effects of piracetam instantaneous for most? Or does it take a few weeks to kick in?
- Atticus

[Ghostrider]

Tried 300 mg yesterday, still nothing noteworthy. Will try 400 mg tomorrow.

I have never tried 300 or 400 mg. I did do 200 yesterday after having not used it previously for longer than a month. It definitely kicked in and affected my sleep. I could not fall asleep before 2 AM. It boosted my concentration and so far has been the most promising nootropic that I have tried. I could not distinguish any effect from the other racetams. I would compare the effect from 200 mg to be similar to an energy drink after not having had caffeine in a while. I will probably buy some more soon. If the stuff does not work out for you, I wish I could buy the rest of your supply, but taking opened supplements is dangerous. No, phenyl is the best stuff I have tried, but I remember building up tolerance fast and having to take a break for a while.

[Conanld]

Phenylpiracetam is weird stuff as far as I am concerned. Of all of the racetams that I have tried, this one is the most unpredictable by far. I only take it on weekends, and even then not on every weekend. Last weekend, I took 200 mg of the stuff and I felt very stimulated, creative, and quite alert. Today, I again took 200 mg of it, and it literally put me to sleep! It was like I had taken a sleeping pill. Two hours after taking it, I fell asleep on the couch and I didn't wake up again until another four hours went by! I had to force myself to get up. I couldn't believe it. I had intentions to get some things done today, but that went out the window with this little surprise. I had even taken Citicoline with it too, and I felt rested when I awakened this morning.
LD

Tried 300 mg yesterday, still nothing noteworthy. Will try 400 mg tomorrow.

I have never tried 300 or 400 mg. I did do 200 yesterday after having not used it previously for longer than a month. It definitely kicked in and affected my sleep. I could not fall asleep before 2 AM. It boosted my concentration and so far has been the most promising nootropic that I have tried. I could not distinguish any effect from the other racetams. I would compare the effect from 200 mg to be similar to an energy drink after not having had caffeine in a while. I will probably buy some more soon. If the stuff does not work out for you, I wish I could buy the rest of your supply, but taking opened supplements is dangerous. No, phenyl is the best stuff I have tried, but I remember building up tolerance fast and having to take a break for a while.

[Ghostrider]

Phenylpiracetam is weird stuff as far as I am concerned. Of all of the racetams that I have tried, this one is the most unpredictable by far. I only take it on weekends, and even then not on every weekend. Last weekend, I took 200 mg of the stuff and I felt very stimulated, creative, and quite alert. Today, I again took 200 mg of it, and it literally put me to sleep! It was like I had taken a sleeping pill. Two hours after taking it, I fell asleep on the couch and I didn't wake up again until another four hours went by! I had to force myself to get up. I couldn't believe it. I had intentions to get some things done today, but that went out the window with this little surprise. I had even taken Citicoline with it too, and I felt rested when I awakened this morning.
LD

Tried 300 mg yesterday, still nothing noteworthy. Will try 400 mg tomorrow.

I have never tried 300 or 400 mg. I did do 200 yesterday after having not used it previously for longer than a month. It definitely kicked in and affected my sleep. I could not fall asleep before 2 AM. It boosted my concentration and so far has been the most promising nootropic that I have tried. I could not distinguish any effect from the other racetams. I would compare the effect from 200 mg to be similar to an energy drink after not having had caffeine in a while. I will probably buy some more soon. If the stuff does not work out for you, I wish I could buy the rest of your supply, but taking opened supplements is dangerous. No, phenyl is the best stuff I have tried, but I remember building up tolerance fast and having to take a break for a while.

So far I like it but regret that the effect seems to diminish after the 2nd day of continuous use. So I only take on the weekends. It definitely feels like a clean stimulant. I don't feel any "smarter" just more alert and mentally nimble. Maybe like caffeine, but cleaner. It's definitely doing something. So far my favorite nootropic. Wish it was less expensive, but approx $2/day is cheap.

Edit:
I think I might be better able to describe my experience today. I have been taking a class and I notice that my focus during lecture has diminished when on phenylpiracetam. My mind wanders more easily. However, when working on homework or reading the textbook, I can think faster.

Edited by Ghostrider, 06 October 2008 - 06:42 AM.

[nancy_axel]

Phenylpiracetam is weird stuff as far as I am concerned. Of all of the racetams that I have tried, this one is the most unpredictable by far. I only take it on weekends, and even then not on every weekend. Last weekend, I took 200 mg of the stuff and I felt very stimulated, creative, and quite alert. Today, I again took 200 mg of it, and it literally put me to sleep! It was like I had taken a sleeping pill. Two hours after taking it, I fell asleep on the couch and I didn't wake up again until another four hours went by! I had to force myself to get up. I couldn't believe it. I had intentions to get some things done today, but that went out the window with this little surprise. I had even taken Citicoline with it too, and I felt rested when I awakened this morning.
LD

Tried 300 mg yesterday, still nothing noteworthy. Will try 400 mg tomorrow.

I have never tried 300 or 400 mg. I did do 200 yesterday after having not used it previously for longer than a month. It definitely kicked in and affected my sleep. I could not fall asleep before 2 AM. It boosted my concentration and so far has been the most promising nootropic that I have tried. I could not distinguish any effect from the other racetams. I would compare the effect from 200 mg to be similar to an energy drink after not having had caffeine in a while. I will probably buy some more soon. If the stuff does not work out for you, I wish I could buy the rest of your supply, but taking opened supplements is dangerous. No, phenyl is the best stuff I have tried, but I remember building up tolerance fast and having to take a break for a while.

So far I like it but regret that the effect seems to diminish after the 2nd day of continuous use. So I only take on the weekends. It definitely feels like a clean stimulant. I don't feel any "smarter" just more alert and mentally nimble. Maybe like caffeine, but cleaner. It's definitely doing something. So far my favorite nootropic. Wish it was less expensive, but approx $2/day is cheap.

Edit:
I think I might be better able to describe my experience today. I have been taking a class and I notice that my focus during lecture has diminished when on phenylpiracetam. My mind wanders more easily. However, when working on homework or reading the textbook, I can think faster.

I feel Phenylpiracetam is so variable in terms of its effects.
About Pramiracetam -- can anyone suggest know a good stack? I get depressed on it and tired ..

[hamishm00]

So why take it?

[Conanld]

I will use up the one bottle I purchased, but its unlikely that I will purchase any more of it. I also plan on putting at least two weeks in between each usage.
LD

So why take it?

[dertydave]

I will use up the one bottle I purchased, but its unlikely that I will purchase any more of it. I also plan on putting at least two weeks in between each usage.
LD

So why take it?

Ok got my Phenylpiracetam from R.I about a week ago and tried 200mg after waking up feeling a bit groggy and it defo made me feel more awake for about 2 hours and come on in about 15 minutes. Later i felt quite tired. Not sure if this was a crash because honestly never felt right the whole day.

Anyway since i have heard about the tolerance issues i only planned on taking this once a week. Also the cost is a bit of an issue. Anyway today i took 300mg upon waking (on an empty stomach) and wow i have been buzzing very nicely for at least 2 hours and in an awesome mood. Exactly the right mix i have been after ever since i have embarked on nootropics for a slight edge. Admittedly i have got a bit more that that this time. I am aware peoples experiences have been a little inconsistent with this sup but just passing on mine. I will let you know if i get a crash this time. For the record i have tried most of the other racetams (Ani and Oxi) but not Piracetam (its Schedule 4 in Australia). Also tried Adrafinil, Deprenyl, Geranamine and Galantamine as a basis for some comparison. Motivation and mood were my main goals to begin with as i have a tendency to procrastinate FYI. Have been very impressed with Galantamine so far as well.

Dert

[dertydave]

I will use up the one bottle I purchased, but its unlikely that I will purchase any more of it. I also plan on putting at least two weeks in between each usage.
LD

So why take it?

Ok got my Phenylpiracetam from R.I about a week ago and tried 200mg after waking up feeling a bit groggy and it defo made me feel more awake for about 2 hours and come on in about 15 minutes. Later i felt quite tired. Not sure if this was a crash because honestly never felt right the whole day.

Anyway since i have heard about the tolerance issues i only planned on taking this once a week. Also the cost is a bit of an issue. Anyway today i took 300mg upon waking (on an empty stomach) and wow i have been buzzing very nicely for at least 2 hours and in an awesome mood. Exactly the right mix i have been after ever since i have embarked on nootropics for a slight edge. Admittedly i have got a bit more that that this time. I am aware peoples experiences have been a little inconsistent with this sup but just passing on mine. I will let you know if i get a crash this time. For the record i have tried most of the other racetams (Ani and Oxi) but not Piracetam (its Schedule 4 in Australia). Also tried Adrafinil, Deprenyl, Geranamine and Galantamine as a basis for some comparison. Motivation and mood were my main goals to begin with as i have a tendency to procrastinate FYI. Have been very impressed with Galantamine so far as well.

Dert

Just in case you locos were wondering i never got that crash. In fact had the best day and ended up at a bar at 3a.m. in the morning with a few friends doing impromptu dance moves with a chick with tourettes. Anyway i forgot to mention last week i took 2g of Phenibut 4 hours prior to bed to relax and get a good nights rest and then the Phenlypiracetam. Anyway on Phenibut always the next day i tend to feel the elevated mood the next day which is another reason why i take it at night. But i normally i do this once a week. Anyway i took the Phenly again today and as am added treat added 4mg of Galantamine. The effects were uber cool and while not as strong as last week were still very satisfying and actually what i am really after. Anyway as i do every morning i went for my run (i did this last week as well but did not mention this) and like last week to just push that much harder and longer. Anyway after the run i felt absolutely amazing. Normally i would be absolutely buggered for the rest of day but i have been bust doing household chores ever since. Perhaps this was dude to the Galantamine. Anyway thought i would pass this on as there are not many experiences on this stuff. It is kinda cool in a way that the Phens both are not great on tolerance. It means i limit this great experience to only once a week. This makes me very interesting in the other racetam. Nefiractam. Once i can find some i will report on that soon.

Dert

[Steve_86]

For the record i have tried most of the other racetams (Ani and Oxi) but not Piracetam (its Schedule 4 in Australia).
Dert

I have ordered atleast 6 or 7 tubs of 700g Piracetam in my time. I have never had any issues with Piracetam and Aussie customs. Even when my package has been inspected.

[dertydave]

For the record i have tried most of the other racetams (Ani and Oxi) but not Piracetam (its Schedule 4 in Australia).
Dert

I have ordered atleast 6 or 7 tubs of 700g Piracetam in my time. I have never had any issues with Piracetam and Aussie customs. Even when my package has been inspected.

No problemo with what you are saying. Plenty of people on this site have also got in Modafinil (also Schedule 4) and had them checked by customs. But I have checked and it is on the TGA prohibited list unless you have a prescription. After reading alot of threads through this site and many others i am not aware of anyone that has been knocked back but it is still nice to be aware and there is always a first time. Seems quite ridiculous to me but i just can't be bothered going down that path. Gee had alot of grammar and spelling issues in that last post. Give me numbers any day.