32 replies to this topic

[woly]

Clin Sci (Lond). 2008 Sep 16. [Epub ahead of print]

Oral antioxidants and cardiovascular health in the exercise trained
and untrained elderly: a radically different outcome.

Wray DW, Uberoi A, Lawrenson L, Bailey DM, Richardson RS.

Both antioxidant supplementation and exercise training have been
identified as interventions which may reduce oxidative stress and thus
improve cardiovascular health, but the interaction of these
interventions on arterial blood pressure and vascular function has not
been studied in older humans. Thus, in six older (71 +/- 2 yrs) mildly
hypertensive men, arterial blood pressure was evaluated non-invasively
at rest and during small muscle mass (knee-extensor) exercise with and
without a pharmacologic dose of oral antioxidants (Vitamins C, E, and
alpha-lipoic acid). The efficacy of the antioxidant intervention to
decrease plasma free radical concentration was verified via electron
paramagnetic resonance (EPR) spectroscopy, while changes in
endothelial function in response to exercise training and antioxidant
administration were evaluated via flow-mediated vasodilation (FMD).
Subjects were re-evaluated after a six-week aerobic exercise training
program. Prior to training, acute antioxidant administration did not
change resting arterial blood pressure or FMD. Six weeks of knee-
extensor exercise training reduced systolic (from 150 +/- 8 to 138 +/-
3 mmHg, pre- vs. post-training) and diastolic (from 91 +/- 5 to 79 +/-
3 mmHg, pre- vs. post-training) blood pressure, and improved FMD (1.5
+/- 1% to 4.9 +/- 1%, pre- vs. post-training). However, antioxidant
administration after exercise training negated these improvements,
returning subjects to a hypertensive state and blunting training-
induced improvements in FMD. The paradoxical effects of these
interventions suggest a need for caution when exercise and acute
antioxidant supplementation are combined in elderly, mildly
hypertensive individuals.

PMID: 18795893 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]


The evidence sure is becoming clear that in order to get the benefits from exercise, one should stay clear of antioxidant supps for atleast a few hours.

Thoughts?

[mustardseed41]

I get tremendous benefits from exercise while supplementing before and after. Explain that to me?

[mitkat]

Yet another study showing the negative relationship. I've made it a rule now to avoid all anti-oxidant supps before and after I work out for a few months now. Good find!

[woly]

how much time do you leave pre/post workout before supplementing?

[Mind]

6 subjects. Not exactly a large sample size, however a few other studies have been posted in the forums suggesting the same thing. Zoolander would be a good one to comment here.

[rapier]

Is it really a negative or just plain common sense that the body gets confused/upset when you exercise after ingesting?

Much the same it would seem the body would want to devote it's energy and resources to recovering from exercise rather than begin processing what you ingest. Even with water we are advised not to over do it after exercise.

Edited by rapier, 25 September 2008 - 10:46 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Is it really a negative or just plain common sense that the body gets confused/upset when you exercise after ingesting?

There is common sense in play here but its not related to the body getting confused/upset about ingesting something. The free radicals produced during exercise constitute much of the "stress" of exercise and provoke a beneficial hormetic response from the body. Antioxidants interfere with that: no stressor, no hormetic response. If you can mitigate all of the damage caused by exercise with exogenous supplements, the body isn't going to invest any resources dealing with it.

[VictorBjoerk]

when should you take your antioxidants? just before you go to bed?

[Shepard]

when should you take your antioxidants? just before you go to bed?

The next line of questioning is "Should you take your antioxidants?"

[Dmitri]

The evidence sure is becoming clear that in order to get the benefits from exercise, one should stay clear of antioxidant supps for atleast a few hours.

Thoughts?

Well, I take them 3-4 hours before exercising since I take my multi with my meal (dinner), does that also have a negative effect?

[DukeNukem]

The evidence sure is becoming clear that in order to get the benefits from exercise, one should stay clear of antioxidant supps for atleast a few hours.

Thoughts?

Well, I take them 3-4 hours before exercising since I take my multi with my meal (dinner), does that also have a negative effect?

I try to leave a four hour gap, both before and after lifting weights. I don't think I've read anywhere what the optimal gap should be, so this is just my guesswork.

[niner]

The evidence sure is becoming clear that in order to get the benefits from exercise, one should stay clear of antioxidant supps for atleast a few hours.

Thoughts?

Well, I take them 3-4 hours before exercising since I take my multi with my meal (dinner), does that also have a negative effect?

I try to leave a four hour gap, both before and after lifting weights. I don't think I've read anywhere what the optimal gap should be, so this is just my guesswork.

Seems like it would have to at least be related to the half life of the compound. Vitamin C, for example washes out pretty quickly. For that matter, so does lipoic acid. It can get more complicated in that lipoic acid may actually be acting via a pro-oxidative, hormetic mechanism rather than as a simple antioxidant, or it may work both ways. Another factor involves the amount of time that it takes for the exercise-induced radical species to have their effect. Radicals tend to be short lived, at least in vitro. I don't have any real data on this, but I skip antioxidants in the morning on the days that I exercise, and bring them back in around dinner. If anything, the wait after exercising is probably excessive, just going on theoretical considerations, but I have no data to go on.

[edward]

I am currently taking all of my antioxidant supplements (and I am minimizing things with regards to pure antioxdants, I view plant supplments like res, grape seed, green tea, lipoic acid as not pure antioxidants as there are signifigant hormetic responses occuring) in the morning (6am-9am ish depending on my schedule) as well as most of my supplements in general. For the rest of the day I will only consume brain/energy supplements. I am working out in the early evening now and then before my evening meal I will consume a glucose/glycation mix to be on the safe side then before bed I consume magnesium, taurine, zinc, bacopa and melatonin.

Basically most all supplements in the AM, work out in the early evening, glucose/glycation before meal, sleepy mineral amino and yes melatonin which is antioxidant before bed.

I think taking antioxidants for antioxidants sake is simply stupid (unless you could somehow carry a constant IV drip of the right mix of antioxidants to cover all body systems and intracelluar components all the time)........ forcing ones body to ramp up its own systems is a far better proposition and is actually proven in the case of CR to extend life, exercise, CR mimetics, hormetic supplements etc. seems to be the way to go.

Edited by edward, 27 September 2008 - 08:43 PM.

[rollo]

I've been taking r-ala, vit c, green tea, NAC, ginseng immediatly after my weightlifting session for some years now. I'm very healthy, look young for my age(and not because I'm puny, I'm very well built), continue to progress in my workouts... Are these reasons enough to continue taking my post workout pills as I have been or should I be worried and perhaps change my schedule?

[immortali457]

I've been taking r-ala, vit c, green tea, NAC, ginseng immediatly after my weightlifting session for some years now. I'm very healthy, look young for my age(and not because I'm puny, I'm very well built), continue to progress in my workouts... Are these reasons enough to continue taking my post workout pills as I have been or should I be worried and perhaps change my schedule?

Keep doing what your doing. Don't buy into it.

[niner]

I've been taking r-ala, vit c, green tea, NAC, ginseng immediatly after my weightlifting session for some years now. I'm very healthy, look young for my age(and not because I'm puny, I'm very well built), continue to progress in my workouts... Are these reasons enough to continue taking my post workout pills as I have been or should I be worried and perhaps change my schedule?

Keep doing what your doing. Don't buy into it.

Is there a reason to keep doing it this way? What's the advantage to it, and why not switch the antioxidant dosing to later in the day? Rollo, I don't think you need to worry much about the GTE, ginseng; not sure about NAC. The ones to watch are the ALA and C.

[ajnast4r]

Is it really a negative or just plain common sense that the body gets confused/upset when you exercise after ingesting?

There is common sense in play here but its not related to the body getting confused/upset about ingesting something. The free radicals produced during exercise constitute much of the "stress" of exercise and provoke a beneficial hormetic response from the body. Antioxidants interfere with that: no stressor, no hormetic response. If you can mitigate all of the damage caused by exercise with exogenous supplements, the body isn't going to invest any resources dealing with it.

this

[kismet]

I've been taking r-ala, vit c, green tea, NAC, ginseng immediatly after my weightlifting session for some years now. I'm very healthy, look young for my age(and not because I'm puny, I'm very well built), continue to progress in my workouts... Are these reasons enough to continue taking my post workout pills as I have been or should I be worried and perhaps change my schedule?

Keep doing what your doing. Don't buy into it.

Immortali's advice is broscience at its best and probably one of the most irrational I have read in a long time.

Rollo, you have not given any reasons for or against your regimen: The circumstantial evidence you offered merely suggests that your supplements aren't outright killing you (which I really, really hope is true), but is completely unrelated to the topic at hand: subtle, detrimental effects of your current practise. How would you even notice such subtle changes? And how can you judge your progress without any reference? (you do not even know how you'd progress w/o those supps!!)

Is there a reason to keep doing it this way? What's the advantage to it, and why not switch the antioxidant dosing to later in the day?

Damn straight. We need more clear thinking people like you. 

Edited by kismet, 10 December 2009 - 05:16 PM.

[ajnast4r]

anecdotally i am way more sore when not using antioxidants during/around workouts... but i've had significantly increased gains in muscle mass.

[kenj]

>>> The evidence sure is becoming clear that in order to get the benefits from exercise, one should stay clear of antioxidant supps for atleast a few hours <<<

FWIW, I remain sceptical about this approach, at least when thinking this into my own scheme (= NOT accelerating aging). I dose vitamins, etc. around workouts, and I rarely get any soreness, problems with knees, or anything. Sometimes I wonder if I've done the eXercise aTall....

[Saber]

Antioxidants stay longer in your body than that. It's pointless avoiding supplementation around the time of workout. It may be best to just supplement near the amount that's contained in food (if you can't get it from food) and not go overboard, since there's no proven benefit to this approach.

[rollo]

I've been taking r-ala, vit c, green tea, NAC, ginseng immediatly after my weightlifting session for some years now. I'm very healthy, look young for my age(and not because I'm puny, I'm very well built), continue to progress in my workouts... Are these reasons enough to continue taking my post workout pills as I have been or should I be worried and perhaps change my schedule?

Keep doing what your doing. Don't buy into it.

Immortali's advice is broscience at its best and probably one of the most irrational I have read in a long time.

Rollo, you have not given any reasons for or against your regimen: The circumstantial evidence you offered merely suggests that your supplements aren't outright killing you (which I really, really hope is true), but is completely unrelated to the topic at hand: subtle, detrimental effects of your current practise. How would you even notice such subtle changes? And how can you judge your progress without any reference? (you do not even know how you'd progress w/o those supps!!)

Is there a reason to keep doing it this way? What's the advantage to it, and why not switch the antioxidant dosing to later in the day?

Damn straight. We need more clear thinking people like you. 

I started taking my antioxidants, among other things, after my workout because I had read somewhere that the body is in a catabolic state post workout and anything that would help relieve that stress would be beneficial, specially since the next workout is right around the corner. I do keep a workout log and I can see a continuous progression. I don't ever have bad workouts, the kinds where everything feels heavier that it actually is, but this is more due to proper post workout nutrition I think. Over the 4-5 years that I've been weightlifting, I've managed to get my deadlift upto 375lbs at a bodyweight of 155lbs, and I continue to climb(raw btw, no belt or straps). I'll be 30 next year and most people assume I'm under 20.

So yeah, I feel that I'm doing something right here, not that I'm saying that strength training is about the supplements you take, I think it's more a mind game than anything else. I will however consider changing my regimen timing to see if I feel any different.

[Hebbeh]

http://www.ergo-log....moremuscle.html

Human study: power training builds more muscle with vitamin C and E

If elderly men and women take 1000 mg vitamin C [structure below] and 600 mg vitamin E daily, they build up more muscle mass than elderly people who only do power training. Researchers of ageing processes at the Canadian University of Sherbrooke will publish an article on this soon in Diabetes Research and Clinical Practice. Are the discredited antioxidant vitamins good for something after all?
A few months ago, a controversial study was published which showed that high doses of vitamin and C sabotage the positive effects of cardio training on the body’s insulin and glucose metabolism. In that study the researchers had used healthy young men. It was already known that high doses of vitamin C have a negative effect on the muscles. British researchers had discovered that the muscles of young people taking large amounts of vitamin C recover less quickly from intensive exertion. [Br J Nutr. 2006 May;95(5):976-81.]
For a long time sports scientists thought that vitamin C and E were actually good for athletes’ muscles. They believed that these vitamins inhibited inflammation and thus speeded up muscle recovery. This theory was disproved however by studies in which young power athletes were given anti-inflammatories. [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Oct;86(10):5067-70.] These showed that substances like ibuprofen and acetaminophen inhibited muscle growth.
Anti-inflammatories have a different effect in elderly people though. In this group they actually stimulate muscle growth.
Which automatically leads to the question whether in the elderly antioxidant vitamins such as E and C perhaps also have a positive effect on the muscles. The answer is ‘yes’, according to the Canadians. They got nearly 50 men and women, average age 66, to train for 6 months with weights, or do nothing. Half of the training group and half of the inactive group were given a placebo. The other half were given vitamin C and E. The training group went to the gym three times a week, where they did seven basic exercises, covering all the large muscle groups. They worked at 80 percent of their 1RM.
The figures below show what happened to the test subjects during the period of the experiment. Placebo = no training + placebo; RT = placebo + weight training; AS = no weight training + vitamins; RT + AS = weight training + vitamins. The vitamin E that the test subjects took was ordinary alpha-tocopherol.
The subjects who only trained did not accumulate any fat-free mass and lost hardly any fat. The subjects that had trained and taken vitamins had gained one and a half kilograms of fat-free mass after six months. What’s more their fat percentage had decreased by just over one percent.
"Antioxidant supplementation likely reduced damages and increased protein synthesis induced by muscle contraction associated with high-intensity resistance training", the researchers write in an attempt to explain their results. "This study was limited by a small sample size and the subjects’ good health. Nevertheless, to overcome these limits, we used a strong research design and a well-controlled intervention. We believe this deserves to be further examined in pre-diabetic or diabetic individuals."
The idea that power-training elderly people – unlike young people – react positively to antioxidant supplements is not that unlikely, if you look at the literature. Epidemiological studies have shown that elderly people who have taken more antioxidants like vitamin C and E throughout their life have stronger muscles. [Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Feb;79(2):289-94.] Animal studies have shown that elderly rats make more muscle tissue if they are given extra rutin, vitamin A and E, zinc and selenium in their food.
Source:
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2009 Nov;71(5):666-72.

[Invariant]

So what do we have? Studies showing that excercise is less beneficial to certain biomarkers when antioxidants are used and studies showing better performance at exercises when antioxidants are used. Those are not conflictory. When you use antioxidants your body doesn't take such a big hit so you can keep it up longer (better performance). If you do the same excercises while using antioxidants, you'll see less of an improvement in biomarkers.

So if you're a competing athlete, you might want to take aoxs before important matches so you perform better.
If you're a life extentionist, you might not want to take them because you're after the hormetic response.

There's one catch though:
I've not really studied the literature so maybe someone can clarify this for me: I see how using antioxidants will blunt the beneficial effects of excercise when compared to the same excercise (same kind, same intensity, same duration). But if antioxidants improve performance, it's likely that we will make our workouts harder: heavier, longer. Have studies adressed this? Having two groups try to improve their performance and or biomarkers as much as possible, one group with and one without antioxidants.

[Hebbeh]

It may not be that simple. It appears that anti-oxs may possibly have differing effects in relation to endurance as compared to power exercise and/or may possibly have differing effects in relation to age as younger athlete's bodies have fine tuned endogenous anti-ox systems well senior athletes bodies endogenous anti-ox systems may be faltering and therefore may benefit from exogenous anti-oxs. And other factors are more than likely at play also...it's never simple...but it certainly appears that type of exercise and/or age and/or health status may come into play.

[rollo]

Starting today, I'll be taking my antioxidants several hours prior to exercise. Will post any significant results here.

[niner]

Starting today, I'll be taking my antioxidants several hours prior to exercise. Will post any significant results here.

That is probably not enough time, possibly depending on the antioxidant. I can tell you my experience; I took various antioxidants in the morning, and worked out some time during the day, for years. I was on a long term plateau, then began skipping antioxidants entirely on the days that I lifted. I very quickly broke through my previous plateau. Just an anecdote, but it's consistent with what the science is saying. Antioxidants are over-rated in general, imho, and it really doesn't hurt to skip them part of the time. I know it's been dogma for a long time, but so was fat = bad.

[rollo]

Starting today, I'll be taking my antioxidants several hours prior to exercise. Will post any significant results here.

That is probably not enough time, possibly depending on the antioxidant. I can tell you my experience; I took various antioxidants in the morning, and worked out some time during the day, for years. I was on a long term plateau, then began skipping antioxidants entirely on the days that I lifted. I very quickly broke through my previous plateau. Just an anecdote, but it's consistent with what the science is saying. Antioxidants are over-rated in general, imho, and it really doesn't hurt to skip them part of the time. I know it's been dogma for a long time, but so was fat = bad.

Well I'm not going to stop taking r-ala daily or vitamin c or NAC so the best I can do at this point is play with the timing and look for changes...

[kismet]

FWIW, I remain sceptical about this approach, at least when thinking this into my own scheme (= NOT accelerating aging). I dose vitamins, etc. around workouts, and I rarely get any soreness, problems with knees, or anything. Sometimes I wonder if I've done the eXercise aTall....

IMHO you arrived at the wrong conclusion, look at it that way: the positive epidemiology supporting the benefits of exercise was done in the population at large, i.e. people not taking high dose antioxidants, especially not before exercise. If you want to make sure you reap those benefits, do what they did; do not regularly take high amounts of antiox around exercise...

[kenj]

IMHO you arrived at the wrong conclusion, look at it that way: the positive epidemiology supporting the benefits of exercise was done in the population at large, i.e. people not taking high dose antioxidants, especially not before exercise. If you want to make sure you reap those benefits, do what they did; do not regularly take high amounts of antiox around exercise...

Sorry, I'm not 'the population at large', but I do see your point: we know what works here (for sane people, anyway :-)).