48 replies to this topic

[zorba990]

Looking for some DIY help here...

I've been a fan of Lypospheric Vitamin C for while now.
(I can't tolerate large amounts of other types).
However they recently increased the price, and I will
no longer be able to justify the cost. So I'm thinking
I could make my own using the Lecithin plus ultrasonic
jewelry cleaner method that people were experimenting with
for Resveratrol. So does anyone have a particular ultrasonic
model to recommend? Looks like Livon uses 1:1 ratio of
phospholipids to sodium ascorbate. Any idea if I would need to
dissolve the Sodium Ascorbate into water first and then into the
lecithin or mix the powder straight in? Is it ok to just use
cheap lecithin like this: http://www.iherb.com...c...904964&at=0
or is it better to use a phosphatidyl choline concentrated product?

thanks!

[nameless]

How does Pureway-C compare to Lypospheric Vitamin C? I think Pureway is combined with lipid metabolites, or something like that, and it's relatively inexpensive.

[zorba990]

How does Pureway-C compare to Lypospheric Vitamin C? I think Pureway is combined with lipid metabolites, or something like that, and it's relatively inexpensive.

The website seems to be a little vague on what exactly it is. I haven't been able
to find a product that contains just it and not also bioflavanoids. While I value
bioflavanoids, if I'm going to give another Vit C product a chance to not give
me IBS I don't want anything else in there. Lypospheric does not give me gas or IBS
and I can take it in the gram amounts I want.

[zorba990]

How does Pureway-C compare to Lypospheric Vitamin C? I think Pureway is combined with lipid metabolites, or something like that, and it's relatively inexpensive.

The website seems to be a little vague on what exactly it is. I haven't been able
to find a product that contains just it and not also bioflavanoids. While I value
bioflavanoids, if I'm going to give another Vit C product a chance to not give
me IBS I don't want anything else in there. Lypospheric does not give me gas or IBS
and I can take it in the gram amounts I want.

Looks like there is another competitor at about 1.3 the price:

http://www.e-spa.net...amin_C_8oz.html

Still rather try and make it myself though...if its cheaper..

[ppp]

How does Pureway-C compare to Lypospheric Vitamin C? I think Pureway is combined with lipid metabolites, or something like that, and it's relatively inexpensive.

The website seems to be a little vague on what exactly it is. I haven't been able
to find a product that contains just it and not also bioflavanoids. While I value
bioflavanoids, if I'm going to give another Vit C product a chance to not give
me IBS I don't want anything else in there. Lypospheric does not give me gas or IBS
and I can take it in the gram amounts I want.

Looks like there is another competitor at about 1.3 the price:

http://www.e-spa.net...amin_C_8oz.html

Still rather try and make it myself though...if its cheaper..

How does that compare to lipoflow? http://www.lipoflow....p;products_id=5

I'm interested in home-made liposomal C, but haven't been able to make much progress...

[rwac]

This is an old topic, anybody have success making liposomal vit C ?
Noticed any effects from it ?

Here's a howto, if you're interested.

http://www.racehorse...ns/LET/let.html

[aaCharley]

I recently found this web info on high dose Vitamin C. Pretty interesting read and I sure would be interested in any studies about the procedure. My first thought is that a few applications of very high doses, with a moderate dose (2 - 3 gm. per day) during the interim, could accomplish a great deal. The prepared liposome combinations are pretty darned expensive. I would also note that, IMHO, the web site subscribes to some unusual views on any number of things. That should not entirely discredit the information in the particular article.

http://www.lewrockwe...i/sardi144.html

Researchers Achieve Cancer-Killing Effect With Oral-Dose Vitamin C

[ppp]

I recently found this web info on high dose Vitamin C. Pretty interesting read and I sure would be interested in any studies about the procedure. My first thought is that a few applications of very high doses, with a moderate dose (2 - 3 gm. per day) during the interim, could accomplish a great deal. The prepared liposome combinations are pretty darned expensive. I would also note that, IMHO, the web site subscribes to some unusual views on any number of things. That should not entirely discredit the information in the particular article.

http://www.lewrockwe...i/sardi144.html

Researchers Achieve Cancer-Killing Effect With Oral-Dose Vitamin C

The study that they talk about has a very small sample (two people), and they reached the highest level of plasma vitamin C after ingesting of 36g of liposomal C. That's a phenomenal intake and I am amazed that they weren't sick - that stuff is not easy to take in high volumes. So, yes, an interesting study that acheived high plama levels, but how practical that is for cancer patients wanting to use this as a therapy is open to question.

Edited by ppp, 05 February 2010 - 08:38 PM.

[aaCharley]

Yes it is a very high level and was only achieved with the liposomes. As to making them sick, I would not that a cancer patient is already sick. And note that it was a one time dose that achieved the result. I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a curcumin liposome that would bypass the destruction in the stomach.

[niner]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a curcumin liposome that would bypass the destruction in the stomach.

Curcumin isn't destroyed in the stomach. It's metabolized in the gut and liver, primarily via glucuronidation and sulfation (just like resveratrol). Curcumin undergoes other transformations, such as reduction, as well. It's conceivable that a liposomal formulation might help some of the curcumin slip past gut enzymes, (or not) but once it's in the blood, it's a sitting duck as far as the liver is concerned.

[rwac]

Yes it is a very high level and was only achieved with the liposomes. As to making them sick, I would not that a cancer patient is already sick. And note that it was a one time dose that achieved the result. I'm wondering if it would be possible to create a curcumin liposome that would bypass the destruction in the stomach.

Liposomes are useful for encapsulating water soluble compounds within a phospholipid double layer to bypass the stomach and improve absorption.

 250px_Liposome_scheme_en.svg.png   44.27KB   28 downloads

Circumin, on the other hand, is fat soluble, so you want to dissolve it in monounsaturated fat (olive oil, etc), and this will bypass the stomach acid. It will be emulsified and absorbed along with the fat.

[mike250]

so sprinkle some on a tbsp of EVOO

[david ellis]

This is an old topic, anybody have success making liposomal vit C ?
Noticed any effects from it ?

Here's a howto, if you're interested.

http://www.racehorse...ns/LET/let.html

Here is a you tube instructional video.

[rwac]

Here is a you tube instructional video.

I've been doing it for a while now. The ultrasonic cleaner mentioned actually burned out the second time I used it.
So I got a bigger model.

Edited by rwac, 31 March 2010 - 06:19 AM.

[ppp]

Here is a you tube instructional video.

I've been doing it for a while now. The ultrasonic cleaner mentioned actually burned out the second time I used it.
So I got a bigger model.

Are you using it just for vit c or have you tried other supps as well?

[rwac]

Curcumin isn't destroyed in the stomach. It's metabolized in the gut and liver, primarily via glucuronidation and sulfation (just like resveratrol). Curcumin undergoes other transformations, such as reduction, as well. It's conceivable that a liposomal formulation might help some of the curcumin slip past gut enzymes, (or not) but once it's in the blood, it's a sitting duck as far as the liver is concerned.

I'm not so sure of that. I believe the liposomes actually make into the blood intact. It will probably escape the liver for a while.

Reduced Toxicity, Entrapped Drugs

Liposomes have the distinct advantages of being both nontoxic and biodegradable because they are composed of naturally occurring substances. Biologically active materials encapsulated within liposomes are protected to varying extent from immediate dilution or degradation, suggesting drug carrier systems for the transport of drugs and other bioactive capsules to disease-affected organs. The unique ability of liposomes to entrap drugs both in an aqueous and a lipid phase make such delivery systems attractive for hydrophilic and hydrophobic drugs.

From: http://biopharminter...278/article.pdf

I think you could dissolve the curcumin in oil, and then lipomize it. However, I'm not convinced of the wisdom of large doses of curcumin.

[rwac]

Are you using it just for vit c or have you tried other supps as well?

I actually tried throwing in some MgCl2 in there with the vit C one time. It merely succeeded in getting all the lecithin to settle out in minutes.

I'm not sure what can be encapsulated and what cannot. Something to do with small molecules, perhaps ?

I might try throwing in some tocotrienols in there or something.

[ppp]

Are you using it just for vit c or have you tried other supps as well?

I actually tried throwing in some MgCl2 in there with the vit C one time. It merely succeeded in getting all the lecithin to settle out in minutes.

I'm not sure what can be encapsulated and what cannot. Something to do with small molecules, perhaps ?

I might try throwing in some tocotrienols in there or something.

I hadn't realised ths, but there has even been work done on liposomes to improve delivery of docohexanoic acid (omega-3 fish oil).

[rwac]

I hadn't realised ths, but there has even been work done on liposomes to improve delivery of docohexanoic acid (omega-3 fish oil).

Wait, are there problems with delivery of DHA ? Does the stomach actually interfere with DHA absorption ?!

If you want to reduce processing by the liver even further, "stealthing" the liposomes might do the job.
PEGylation makes the liposomes invisible to the immune system.

I presume you add PEG to the liposomal solution.(aka Miralax)
Good or Bad ? Who knows.

http://users.ntplx.n...vcon/da1-5.html

Edited by rwac, 31 March 2010 - 02:50 PM.

[ppp]

I hadn't realised ths, but there has even been work done on liposomes to improve delivery of docohexanoic acid (omega-3 fish oil).

Wait, are there problems with delivery of DHA ? Does the stomach actually interfere with DHA absorption ?!

If you want to reduce processing by the liver even further, "stealthing" the liposomes might do the job.
PEGylation makes the liposomes invisible to the immune system.

I presume you add PEG to the liposomal solution.(aka Miralax)
Good or Bad ? Who knows.

http://users.ntplx.n...vcon/da1-5.html

In the context of solid tumours it appears that liposomal DHA is much more effective that plain-old DHA - there are a few papers on this on pubmed.

Do you have any experience of pegylating your ascorbate mixture?

[rwac]

In the context of solid tumours it appears that liposomal DHA is much more effective that plain-old DHA - there are a few papers on this on pubmed.

Do you have any experience of pegylating your ascorbate mixture?

Actually it's not clear to me whether they are talking about liposomes made out of phospholipids with DHA as one of the phosphatidyl groups, or whether the DHA is a payload within the liposome.

I haven't yet, but I might give PEGylation a shot.

Edited by rwac, 31 March 2010 - 08:37 PM.

[rwac]

Another question is how absorbable are PEGylated liposomes. Because PEG is used as a laxative.

I think PEGylated liposomal drugs are generally injected.

[ppp]

In the context of solid tumours it appears that liposomal DHA is much more effective that plain-old DHA - there are a few papers on this on pubmed.

Do you have any experience of pegylating your ascorbate mixture?

Actually it's not clear to me whether they are talking about liposomes made out of phospholipids with DHA as one of the phosphatidyl groups, or whether the DHA is a payload within the liposome.

I haven't yet, but I might give PEGylation a shot.

My reading of it is that DHA is the payload within the liposome.

[ppp]

Another question is how absorbable are PEGylated liposomes. Because PEG is used as a laxative.

I think PEGylated liposomal drugs are generally injected.

Things like Peg-Interferon are injected, but I don't know whether that's generally the case with other pegylated drugs.

[aaCharley]

Curcumin isn't destroyed in the stomach. It's metabolized in the gut and liver, primarily via glucuronidation and sulfation (just like resveratrol). Curcumin undergoes other transformations, such as reduction, as well. It's conceivable that a liposomal formulation might help some of the curcumin slip past gut enzymes, (or not) but once it's in the blood, it's a sitting duck as far as the liver is concerned.

I'm not so sure of that. I believe the liposomes actually make into the blood intact. It will probably escape the liver for a while.

Reduced Toxicity, Entrapped Drugs

Liposomes have the distinct advantages of being both nontoxic and biodegradable because they are composed of naturally occurring substances. Biologically active materials encapsulated within liposomes are protected to varying extent from immediate dilution or degradation, suggesting drug carrier systems for the transport of drugs and other bioactive capsules to disease-affected organs. The unique ability of liposomes to entrap drugs both in an aqueous and a lipid phase make such delivery systems attractive for hydrophilic and hydrophobic drugs.

From: http://biopharminter...278/article.pdf

I think you could dissolve the curcumin in oil, and then lipomize it. However, I'm not convinced of the wisdom of large doses of curcumin.

The curcumin expert at M.D. Anderson, name escapes me, had offered the recommendation of taking 8 mg a day of the 95% curcumin. Of course that seems quite a lot but was directed at treating an existing disease problem and could get a bit pricey. The large load seems to be directed at overcomming the effects of passing through the stomach and gut to finally get a bit into circulation. The Super bio-curcumin product only has 400 mg of the 95% curcumin but uses 380 mg of tumeric oil for disolving it and as the carrier. Reportedly it has 7X the absorption or equivilant to about 3 grams of the 95% product. It is a bit of a cost trade off as the super Bio-Curcumin product is also a bit pricey. I don't have a condition that I'm trying to directly treat or reverse (that I am aware of) but I sure like the idea of using about 15% to 20% as much of the 95% product in a liposome to get the same possible benefit on Alzheimer's. It still could be worthwhile to take some of the slightly enhanced low cost tumeric for the antibacterial benefits in the digestive system. If it does pass through without digestive activety it cannot at the same time be effective on the H. Pylori.

[ppp]

In the context of solid tumours it appears that liposomal DHA is much more effective that plain-old DHA - there are a few papers on this on pubmed.

Do you have any experience of pegylating your ascorbate mixture?

Actually it's not clear to me whether they are talking about liposomes made out of phospholipids with DHA as one of the phosphatidyl groups, or whether the DHA is a payload within the liposome.

I haven't yet, but I might give PEGylation a shot.

My reading of it is that DHA is the payload within the liposome.

THis looks like an interesting paper:

Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1995 Dec;210(3):227-33.
Omega-3 fatty acid-containing liposomes in cancer therapy.

Jenski LJ, Zerouga M, Stillwell W.

Department of Biology, Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis 46303-5132, USA.

omega-3 fatty acids are associated with reduced growth and incidence of certain cancers, and in this report we demonstrate that a fish oil diet (rich in omega-3 fatty acids) enhances the longevity of mice bearing the myeloid leukemia T27A. We have proposed that the omega-3 fatty acid docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6 delta 4,7,10,13,16,19) may induce structural changes in tumor cell plasma membranes resulting in reduced tumor growth in vitro. Here, we test whether liposomes containing DHA (18:0, 22:6 PC) have antitumor effects in vivo, leading to enhanced longevity of the tumor-bearing host. Male BALB/c mice (6-8 weeks old) were inoculated intraperitoneally with a T27A tumor dose known to cause 100% mortality of syngeneic (BALB/c) mice in less than 2 weeks. Small unilamellar vesicles (liposomes) were prepared, composed of phosphatidylcholine (PC) with 18:0 in the sn-l position and one of the following fatty acids in the sn-2 position: 18:0, 18:1 omega 9 (oleic), 18:3 omega 3 (alpha-linolenic), 20:4 omega 6 (arachidonic), 22:6 omega 3 (docosahexaenoic). The liposomes were injected intraperitoneally into tumor-bearing mice at various times: concurrently with the tumor inoculum, at select times during tumor growth, and when the mice were moribund. Mouse survival was then charted. DHA-containing lipid vesicles (18:0, 22:6 PC) caused a statistically significant increase in survival of the tumor-bearing mice when compared with 18:0, 18:1 PC. Lipid vesicles of 18:0, 18:0 PC showed no benefit, and 18:0, 20:4 PC was not significantly different than 18:0, 18:1 PC. Lipid vesicles containing a different omega-3 fatty acid, 18:0, 18:3 PC, also effectively enhanced tumor-bearing mouse survival. The greatest benefit was achieved if either the liposome treatments were spaced throughout the tumor growth period, or if the tumor inoculum was suspended in the liposome preparation (without further liposome treatments). Neither lipid peroxidation nor prolonged inflammatory responses appeared to be pertinent, leaving membrane structural changes as a feasible mode of liposome action. With antitumor properties of their own, omega-3 fatty acid-containing lipid vesicles may offer an important new avenue in combination cancer therapies.

If anyone can access the full paper I'd really appreciate a PDF...

[rwac]

Here, we test whether liposomes containing DHA (18:0, 22:6 PC) have antitumor effects in vivo, leading to enhanced longevity of the tumor-bearing host.

I think they're talking about PC with DHA and stearic acid as the fatty acid groups.
18:0 = stearic acid.
22:6 = DHA

[ppp]

Here, we test whether liposomes containing DHA (18:0, 22:6 PC) have antitumor effects in vivo, leading to enhanced longevity of the tumor-bearing host.

I think they're talking about PC with DHA and stearic acid as the fatty acid groups.
18:0 = stearic acid.
22:6 = DHA

Do you think that mixing the lecithin with omega-3 oils and then ultrasounding would produce liposomes that include DHA?

[rwac]

Do you think that mixing the lecithin with omega-3 oils and then ultrasounding would produce liposomes that include DHA?

That should work. Plus it should be easy to taste how much of the fish oil got encapsulated.

[ppp]

Do you think that mixing the lecithin with omega-3 oils and then ultrasounding would produce liposomes that include DHA?

That should work. Plus it should be easy to taste how much of the fish oil got encapsulated.

I'll let you know. I also plan to try it with curcumin - assuming that the oil and curcumin will mix well enough for it to work.