350 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

What???

[Balmain]

What???

A 58 year old woman on phoenixrising.me (user "Asklipia")  reported that her jaw, cheek bones and orbital rims grew as well as overall facial widening. 

 

My cheekbones seem to have filled up too (not the muscle but the bone underneath)

 

http://forums.phoeni...ou.15605/page-2

 

Strange things started to happen :
I grew up 2 cms then a third and last cm at 58 years of age. This has now stopped. Might mean that I too had a deficiency in growth. My jaw which had osteoporosis, especially around one of the articulations (if I yawned it would pop out), filled up and I did not need to have extra bone added to it as the dentist had planned. I stopped having teeth problems and periodontal problems. My face became wider, it seems the bones under my eyes filled up and became more round as in a youthful look.

 

http://forums.phoeni...ou.15605/page-3

 

A guy I talked to on another forum told me that his zygomatic arches widened from it.

Edited by Balmain, 23 June 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Dolph]

She claims she grew 2 cm? (in the other link it's even 3 cm...) With 58 years of age? 

I call it bullshit for sure. At that age the epiphyses are closed and there is NO way she could have grown a single mm. So it's very safe to say that the rest is a result of her pretty obious hysteria, too. 

[Balmain]

She claims she grew 2 cm? (in the other link it's even 3 cm...) With 58 years of age? 

I call it bullshit for sure. At that age the epiphyses are closed and there is NO way she could have grown a single mm. So it's very safe to say that the rest is a result of her pretty obious hysteria, too. 

Hehe

She also said her husband's ribcage widened.

I'm 23 and am pretty sure my face, or at least my zygomatic arches have widened and are now "fuller" which doesn't look good as they were wide and full to begin with.

I'm 23, hoping it's hysteria with me but another young man told me that his zygo arches widened from mk4

Edited by Balmain, 23 June 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Dolph]

To be sure make some pictures to compare after an amount of time has passed. I take Super K since ~2 years and I'm sure as **** that my face hasn't changed even the tinyest bit.

I think this idea of Vitamin K changing the facial bones is one of those ridiculous WAPF ideas. Just don't think about it, it's nonsonse, of course.

[timar]

I have recently stopped taking any vitamin K2 supplements because I found it annoying that I had to buy a larger bike helmet every few months (and I was running out of available helmet sizes). Much worse, people started to make fun of me and called me blockhead. I have since taken warfarin and my skull has shrunk back to reasonable proportions.

Edited by timar, 23 June 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Dolph]

^^ Yeah, I guess K2 could well become the push up bra equivalent of peacocky intellectuals aka "eggheads".

Edited by Dolph, 23 June 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[smithx]

I hope everyone here realizes that this is a joke:

 

I have recently stopped taking any vitamin K2 supplements because I found it annoying that I had to buy a larger bike helmet every few months (and I was running out of available helmet sizes). Much worse, people started to make fun of me and called me blockhead. I have since taken warfarin and my skull has shrunk back to reasonable proportions.

 

[Balmain]

My partner said he noticed my face looking wider, but then again I may have told him before that I thought it had widened and put the idea in his head.

 

Comparing photos that I took last year, the zygomatic arches certainly seem wider, sigh if only I tape measured the width of my zygos last year...

I don't imagine there's that many people my age taking mk4, if it does somehow induce skull growth then perhaps it's more likely in the young.

[ta5]

There have been some concerns about K1 in this thread. Yet, a cup of cooked kale, spinach, or collard greens contains close to 1000mcg of K1. It's hard to imagine that much leafy greens being harmful. 

 

It's too bad the evidence is so mixed. We have the study that suggests 1.5mg of MK4 may benefit bones. Then there's this review from May 2014 that references a study from 1992:

 

A dose-finding study of menatetrenone in Japan [7] administered daily doses of 15, 45, 90, and 135 mg and revealed that 45 mg was the minimum effective dose for improving bone mass parameters evaluated by microdensitometry and/or single photon absorptiometry in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. This optimal dose (45 mg/day) for the treatment of osteoporosis is about 150–180 times greater than the recommended daily dietary intake of vitamin K (250–300 μg) [8]. No toxic effects of menatetrenone (45 mg/day) have been reported [7]. High-dose vitamin K is needed to prevent fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis [9]. However, the effect of menatetrenone on the skeleton remains a matter of controversy [10–17], and the role of menatetrenone in the treatment of osteoporosis therefore needs to be clarified.

[7] Orimo, H., et al. “Clinical evaluation of soft capsule menatetrenone (Ea-0167) in the treatment of osteoporosis: late phase II dose study.” J New Remedies Clinics 41 (1992): 1249-79.

 

Earlier in this thread, Blue posted a list of serious side effects for MK4:

 

15 mg x 3 caused adverse reactions in 4.3% of patients:

* Stomach discomfort, abdominal pain, nauseas, diarrhoea, dyspepsia, thirst, anorexia, glossitis, constipation, vomiting, stomatitis.
* Rash, pruritus, redness
* Headache, light-headedness, numbness, dizziness
* Increase in blood pressure, palpitations
* Elevation of liver enzymes
* Elevation of blood urea nitrogen, urinary frequency
* Oedema, eye abnormalities, malaise, arthralgia
* Also, "The OF study noted a signifcantly higher incidence of skin and skin appendage lesions in patients receiving menatetrenone (0.5 per 100 patient-years compared with 0.1 in the control group, p < 0.001). "

http://www.hta.ac.uk...ono/mon1345.pdf

 

That link is broken now. Does anyone have a link that works? I've read so many articles and reviews that all said there were no known side effects. It's strange no one else knows about these side effects. I wonder how many adverse reactions were in the placebo group. The review above notes:

 

The possible side effects are gastrointestinal tract symptoms such as discomfort of stomach and diarrhea, because vitamin K is a fat-soluble vitamin. The contraindication of menatetrenone is warfarin use, because vitamin K set off the anticoagulant effect of warfarin. Apart from this contraindication, menatetrenone (vitamin K2) does not cause any serious side effects regardless of its dose [7].

 

That statement references the same old study from 1992. Either the author is not up to date, or there have been no serious side effects reported since then.

[aza]

New studies, wasnt sure whether to make a new thread or not.

http://vitamink2.org...-calcification/

According to Dr. Katarzyna Maresz, president of the International Science and Health Foundation, “In the case of vitamin K, the researchers note that studies of vitamin K1 intake generally show no association with the coronary artery calcification (CAC) score, CAC progression, or abdominal aorta calcification (AAC) presence, although vitamin K2 may have more effect in arteries.”

She highlighted a specific finding from the researchers: “Serum MK-4 deficiency predicted aortic calcification, while MK-7 deficiency predicted iliac calcification in chronic kidney disease patients.

“While this review builds on the already strong support for the micronutrients magnesium and vitamin K, particularly Vitamin K2, it does not include the recent paper published in Thrombosis and Haemostasis that showed a nutritional dose (180 mcg/day) for three years not only inhibited age-related stiffening of the arteries, but actually improved arterial flexibility, particularly for those women included in the study having high arterial stiffness,”

 

That was this study http://vitamink2.org...apen-mhj-et-al/

researchers at the R&D Group VitaK of the Maastricht University Holding in the Netherlands monitored 244 healthy post-menopausal women for three years using pulse wave velocity and ultrasound techniques. The participants, aged 55-65 years, were randomly assigned to take 180 mcg of vitamin K2 as MK-7 (as MenaQ7) daily for three years, or placebo capsules.

After three years of treatment, the Stiffness Index ß in the MK-7 group had decreased significantly after compared to the slight increase in the placebo group (-0.67 ± 2.78 vs +0.15 ± 2.51, respectively, p=0.018). Results confirmed that vitamin K2 as MK-7 not only inhibited age-related stiffening of the artery walls, but also made a statistically significant improvement of vascular elasticity.

“This is the first study showing that long-term use of vitamin K2 in the form of MK-7 beneficially affects cardiovascular health,” says Vermeer. “Previous population-based studies have shown an association between vitamin K2 intake and cardiovascular risk, but this is the first intervention trial focused on Vitamin K2 supplementation with cardiovascular endpoints.

“Our data demonstrated that a nutritional dose of vitamin K2 in fact improves cardiovascular outcomes,” Vermeer continues.

 

http://vitamink2.org...kamura-e-et-al/

Fifteen healthy males aged 25 years (median) participated in a non-placebo-controlled dose-examination study. They received MK-4 daily for 5 weeks at 0, 300, 600, 900, and 1500 μg/day in weeks 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, respectively. Compared with baseline, serum γ-carboxylated osteocalcin levels were significantly greater at an intake of 900 μg/day or more; serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin levels and the ratio of serum undercarboxylated osteocalcin to γ-carboxylated osteocalcin were significantly lower than baseline at doses of 600 μg/day or more.

Researchers concluded that this preliminary graded-dose study suggested that vitamin K2 as MK-4 supplementation at 600 μg/day or more is likely to be important in terms of vitamin K requirements for bone health. “Studies that give us insight to the optimal dose of Vitamin K2 for bone benefits are always welcomed. However, the Knappen et al. study that published in Osteoporosis International showed that the optimal dose of Vitamin K2 as MK-7 to decrease inactive osteocalcin was 180 mcg/day, which is much lower than the required dose for MK-4, which this study showed was 600 mcg/day or more,”

 

Personally, i still think that mk4 may have some benefit mk7 doesnt have and i'm attempting to get all my k2 nutritonally. It looks to me like 180mcg (perhaps lower amounts would also be effective) of mk7 from natto/cheese/other fermented food, plus pastured eggs/meat for mk4 is probably enough to have a decent effect.

Edited by aza, 02 June 2015 - 06:52 AM.

[aza]

Oh, and i forgot to mention i have heard of some people in forum posts claiming to have side effects from mk7. I think i may start off at 100mcg of mk7 and see how i go. I wont be able to respond for a while btw, out of posts for the day.

[Dolph]

There are, of course... no side effects of MK7. This forum is, please pardon me, full of s*** at times...

[timar]

No side effects and - obviously - no "MK-7 deficiency" as well. Otherwise everyone not eating natto on a regular basis or taking MK-7 supplements would have a "deficiency", as MK-4 is the only physiological form. Hard to take a researcher seriously who is talking such nonsense.

 

New studies, wasnt sure whether to make a new thread or not.

http://vitamink2.org...-calcification/

According to Dr. Katarzyna Maresz, president of the International Science and Health Foundation, “In the case of vitamin K, the researchers note that studies of vitamin K1 intake generally show no association with the coronary artery calcification (CAC) score, CAC progression, or abdominal aorta calcification (AAC) presence, although vitamin K2 may have more effect in arteries.”

She highlighted a specific finding from the researchers: “Serum MK-4 deficiency predicted aortic calcification, while MK-7 deficiency predicted iliac calcification in chronic kidney disease patients.

 

Edited by timar, 02 June 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[BigLabRat]

 

No side effects and - obviously - no "MK-7 deficiency" as well. Otherwise everyone not eating natto on a regular basis or taking MK-7 supplements would have a "deficiency", as MK-4 is the only physiological form. Hard to take a researcher seriously who is talking such nonsense.

I see your point--with what we know at present (which isn't a lot), it looks as if MK-4 is the active form in the body, so a 'deficiency' in MK-7 isn't possible.

 

However, natto or supplements aren't the only possible sources of MK-7. MK-7 is found in other fermented foods, such as cheeses (along with MK-8 and MK-9). 

 

MK-7 (and possibly MK-8 and MK-9) is also produced by our gut biota.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if MK-4 and MK-7 had slightly different effects on different tissues simply based on kinetics; one is rapidly depleted from the serum, while the other remains in circulation for a prolonged period.

 

But I agree: Based on what we know at present, calling something an "MK-7 deficiency" seems a little silly. 

[aza]

Yeah, i have to admit the mk7 deficiency that sounded odd to me as well, but i didnt know enough to definitively say that wasnt the case. Overall though, the studies are interesting.

 

I also found a website with data on the k2 content of different foods. Not sure how legitimate the data is or if they tried to detect all or only a few types, but if it is all accurate that is fascinating http://honey-guide.c...ermented-foods/. To save time, according to the post, the foods highest in different types of k2 were the following,

Mk4: Goose liver, poultry meat, egg yolks

mk5: Natto, hard cheese, saurkraut

mk6: Natto, blue cheese,

mk7: Natto, blue cheese, (interestingly) beef liver

mk8: Natto, hard cheese, soft cheese, Beef liver

mk9: Jarlsburg, hard cheese, soft cheese, edam

mk10: semi-hard cheese, chedder, liver

 

There are barely any entries for mk11-mk13, but liver seems to be high in them. In fact, all up one of the beef livers seems to have 106mcg of k2 per 100g, which sounds impressive. In fact, if some organ meats contain more k2 then liver and the liver number is accurate, then i wouldnt be surprised if our ancestors often ate over 100mcg of vitamin k2 a day, with the combination of fermented food, organ meat, eggs, insects (would be interesting to see how much k2 is in bugs) ect.

There is also the weston price k2 chart as well, although i think someone probably already posted that.

Sorry if i made any mistakes everyone, hopefully more studies on k2 content of foods will be published eventually. In the meantime, i'll stick to my eggs/chicken/liver and give natto/jarlsburg/blue cheese a go.

I also found an interesting k2 brand called pronordic, which claims to only have the trans version of mk7. In their own words "The non-soy, GMO free, allergen free, pure, all bioactive, vitamin K2, MK-7."

Amazon reviews seem mostly positive, perhaps i should order some for when im too slack to travel 40 minutes to go pick up natto. Haha.

Edited by aza, 04 June 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[FunkOdyssey]

There are, of course... no side effects of MK7. This forum is, please pardon me, full of s*** at times...

 

I must have seen 100+ anecdotes of MK7 side effects in my internet travels.  That tells you nothing about the incidence rate (I imagine it is very low) but why would you doubt it is possible?  People can experience adverse effects from almost anything, nutrients included.

[zorba990]

I suspect if gut bowel flora is healthy, taking mk4 will produce the other variants as well. Seems cheap and safe enough to just take both.
Even the natural reccomendations ferment it (fermented skate and cod liver oils) , cultured butter, etc.

Edited by zorba990, 05 June 2015 - 05:35 AM.

[GhostBuster]

I wonder if this has already been here. The result is more or less disappointing.

 

Background

Dietary intake of vitamin K has been reported to reduce coronary artery calcification (CAC) and cardiovascular events. However, it is unknown whether supplemental menaquinone (MK)-4 can reduce CAC or arterial stiffness. To study the effect of MK-4 supplementation on CAC and brachial ankle pulse wave velocity (baPWV).

 

Methods

This study is a single arm design to take 45 mg/day MK-4 daily as a therapeutic drug for 1 year.

 

Results

A total of 26 patients were enrolled. The average age was 69 ± 8 years and 65 % were female. Plasma levels of phylloquinone (PK), MK-7, and MK4 were 1.94 ± 1.38 ng/ml, 14.2 ± 11.9 ng/ml and 0.4 ± 2.0 ng/ml, respectively, suggesting that MK-7 was the dominant vitamin K in the studied population. Baseline CAC and baPWV were 513 ± 773 and 1834 ± 289 cm/s, respectively. At 1 year following MK-4 supplementation, the values were 588 ± 872 (+14 %) and 1821 ± 378 cm/s (−0.7 %), respectively. In patients with high PIVKA-2, −18 % annual reduction of baPWV was observed.

 

 

https://nutritionj.b...2937-016-0175-8

 

This result would indicate that MK-4 doesn't reverse arterial calcification, at least not in its own. However, it is interesting that despite of that baPWV wasn't worse. One could also speculate that if one year was too short period of time as in some studies vitamin K2 has required a substantial amount of time in order get statistically significant results.

Edited by GhostBuster, 06 December 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[pamojja]

 

Conclusion

Despite high dose MK-4 supplementation, CAC increased +14 % annually, but baPWV did not change (−0.7 %). The benefits of MK-4 supplementation were only observed in patients with vitamin K insufficiencies correlated with high PIVKA-2 baseline levels, reducing baPWV but not CAC.

 

Well, the average yearly CAC increase, even with Statin therapy, is about 30%!

 

At former TrackYourPlaque by Dr. William Davis an annual increase below 15% would be considered as progression has indeed decelerated, and whatever program employed appears to have started working. Yay!

 

Now add all the other plaque reducing agents in the mix..

[Dolph]

Yes, I agree. I also would add that I'm not sure what K2 can do for such a population with already heavily compromised arteries.