62 replies to this topic

[e Volution]

What about the safety factor? I haven't seen anyone mention this aspect yet. Piracetam is very well studied and has a great safety profile, I understand Aniracetam also has both animal and human data behind it, but can it be labeled as safe as Piracetam? Or because they are similar Piracetams safety extends to Aniracetam? None of the above?

[kikai93]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

[Guacamolium]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

[kikai93]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

[e Volution]

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Good old kitchen sink approach, nice! Anyone have a comment (or link) on my question above?

[kikai93]

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Good old kitchen sink approach, nice! Anyone have a comment (or link) on my question above?

No, not the kitchen sink approach. Each of those were added individually, over time, and tested on my personal chemistry with and without the others. \
Each offers unique benefits, and as I said above, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
As to your safety profile question, I can only offer anecdotal evidence and an exhortation to search medical publication sites.

From what I can tell reading the literature, there haven't been many alarm bells raised, but there also haven't been hundreds of studies done.
I will say that Aniracetam has been studied about as much as many drugs hitting the market today, and that after careful research I have no faith in the FDA.
I mention that last because many people see the FDA as the gold standard of safety, whereas they are more or less the gold standard of corruption.
For me, after understanding the mechanism of action and weighing possible negative side effects, the risks were outweighed by the rewards.
Your mileage may vary.

I've used Aniracetam and Oxiracetam consistently for some time with no ill effect (and some substantial gain).
The worst side effect I've experienced from any supplement was some pretty severe stomach cramping. As it turns out, "take with food" wasn't just a suggestion.
I also tend to do a great deal of research before I try anything, and recommend to anyone to do the same.
My greatest contention concerning nootropics is that they should be part of a regimen of physical exercise, meditation, and mental exercise.
Otherwise, it's like taking tribulus and creatine and then sitting back on the couch expecting muscles to grow.

[kikai93]

Aniracetam helps me to think deeply during the first two hours of taking it. I want to get some Pram because I have heard it is great for thinking as well. Does anyone have anecdotal advice on dosage for Pram?

600mg, once a day or 600mg bid.

[outsider]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Your glutamate system is powerful my friend, I'm not talking about your stack but about your genetic glutamate predisposition.

[kikai93]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Your glutamate system is powerful my friend, I'm not talking about your stack but about your genetic glutamate predisposition.

I cut/copied this from old notes and it's incorrect. I actually do piracetam 1200mg bid, aniracetam 750mg bid, oxiracetam 800mg bid and pram 600mg before bed. Even so, that would probably illicit the same response from you. Could you elaborate?

[outsider]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Your glutamate system is powerful my friend, I'm not talking about your stack but about your genetic glutamate predisposition.

I cut/copied this from old notes and it's incorrect. I actually do piracetam 1200mg bid, aniracetam 750mg bid, oxiracetam 800mg bid and pram 600mg before bed. Even so, that would probably illicit the same response from you. Could you elaborate?

Pretty much the same. Its just that everyone is different. I personally cannot even use aniracetam 750mg once a day, intense brain fog. No problem with piracetam even at 6g dose and its not too bad with oxiracetam but slight fog some times and if I supplement oxi with choline I will experience brain fog. Actually I fell that 6g piracetam with 500 mg centrophenoxine has the same kind of effect than oxiracetam 1.5g.

[kikai93]

I use all four "common" 'racetams. I think the combination is superior to the sum of its parts.

What ratios do you use?

Piracetam, 1g, 3x day
Aniracetam 750mg, 3x day
Oxiracetam 500mg 3x day
Pramiracetam 500mg 1x day

Your glutamate system is powerful my friend, I'm not talking about your stack but about your genetic glutamate predisposition.

I cut/copied this from old notes and it's incorrect. I actually do piracetam 1200mg bid, aniracetam 750mg bid, oxiracetam 800mg bid and pram 600mg before bed. Even so, that would probably illicit the same response from you. Could you elaborate?

Pretty much the same. Its just that everyone is different. I personally cannot even use aniracetam 750mg once a day, intense brain fog. No problem with piracetam even at 6g dose and its not too bad with oxiracetam but slight fog some times and if I supplement oxi with choline I will experience brain fog. Actually I fell that 6g piracetam with 500 mg centrophenoxine has the same kind of effect than oxiracetam 1.5g.

That is interesting, as I experience differing effects from each of the racetams both subjectively and on performance metrics. What I was asking about though, is why my racetam use makes you think my glutamate system is powerful?

[apophenia]

I voted for aniracetam, because it is an excellent antidepressant as well as having major positive impact on my guitar playing and yoga practice. The stimulant effect is very pleasant and not over the top.

I am waiting impatiently for my next delivery of aniracetam. I noticed that it has a long-term effect in terms of reduction of certain symptoms of depression - specifically, prior to starting aniracetam I would wake in the morning with negative internal dialogue. That totally disappeared while taking aniracetam. It was a few weeks after my supply ran out before this unpleasant phenomenon re-emerged. Even so, the learned response made it much easier to adjust my thinking along more positive lines.

I found that a combo of 1.5 grams of aniracetam, 1.5 grams of piracetam, 300 mg of picamilon, 200 mg of theanine, and around 100 mg of caffeine equals a very energised and creative day. Generally, I distribute the racetams over two doses - morning and midday. If I want a stronger push, like when I'm making music, I'll have double that dose of racetams.

Aniracetam plus a pre-workout mix with phyto-steroids, such as Animal M-Stak, is awesome for workouts and yoga. Excellent focus and sheer pleasure.

[fql]

All I can say is that Aniracetam (750mg) has been amazing for learning an instrument and lowing anxiety.

[Inland]

Hi there, folks, I don't want to hijack a popular thread but I think my time perception is compressing and I have no idea why, I don't know if it is a result of untreated depression or my obsession over time perception. I just know for a fact that I was fine as recently as the beginning of June. Anyway, I just wanted to know if where I can start a thread about this if possible.

[Ampa-omega]

start a thread in the noot section,it should be interesting,
why do you think your time perception is changing?

[Dirk_Diggler]

I voted for piracetam, and have used both.

There was a point not long ago where I would have said aniracetam being better. But I don't anymore. I just feel like piracetam, while less potent, still is capable of producing all the effects that the other stronger racetams do. I kind of equate piracetam with Valium: while chlordiazepoxide was really the first benzodiazepine, Valium was the first one that really was a blockbuster. And since Valium was so good at what it did, and covered all of the anxiety bases (OCD, panic, anxiety, etc) they made countless derivatives. And while all these were more specified towards a certain condition, and most required a reduction in dosage, none of them cover such a wide spectrum and last as long as Valium.

And I feel the same way with Piracetam. Hell, they wouldn't have made so many different other racetams had Piracetam not been a wonder substance. They just thought they could improve upon it and make money off of the more exotic derivatives.

Aniracetam is short acting...Alprazolam is short acting...notice a relationship here? I'm not saying their effects are the same, I'm saying that their parent compounds, Piracetam and Diazepam, were very good at what they were designed to do. And for people who want a more specified derivative, then other racetams might be better suited towards you.

But for me, I just think Piracetam tends to cover all of the nootropic bases while the other racetams tend to focus on either one or two. For instance, memory recollection, memory consolidation, interhemispheric communication, etc. Piracetam possesses all of these qualities to a certain degree. But some of the other racetams don't.

Piracetam is sorta like the shotgun approach, which while some may say doesn't really cure the ultimate problem, it does help show you where you need improvement. And from there you can go to the more specific racetams, if you so desire.

[health_nutty]

Aniracetam and Piracetam have very different mechanism of action.

Aniracetam has a more direct effect on the AMPA receptor, while Piracetam has a more indirect effect. In studies that compare the two Aniracetam is always superior. However, it's effects are short lived and should be dosed 4 times a day for optimal effect. Piracetam on the other hand has a longer half life, and can be dosed only twice a day.

They work pretty well together.

[jadamgo]

The above comments about aniracetam and piracetam being very different are true. In addition, aniracetam has a biphasic effect. When you first take it, it acts as an anxiolytic and even a sedative. After a few hours, two of its metabolites build up in the CNS and they increase alertness. So first it makes you relaxed and happy, then a few hours later you're motivated and focused.

[Junk Master]

Are there any studies on this biphasic effect of aniracetam? Is it really related to it's metabolites building up in the CNS, or is the perceived increase in alertness just related to it's short half-life and the fact it's anxiolytic/sedative effect wears off in a few hours?

I'm considering how to best dose aniracetam and wonder if 4 doses per day is really necessary. If the metabolites are responsible for the increase in alertness, what is the half-life of the metabolites?

[health_nutty]

Are there any studies on this biphasic effect of aniracetam? Is it really related to it's metabolites building up in the CNS, or is the perceived increase in alertness just related to it's short half-life and the fact it's anxiolytic/sedative effect wears off in a few hours?

I'm considering how to best dose aniracetam and wonder if 4 doses per day is really necessary. If the metabolites are responsible for the increase in alertness, what is the half-life of the metabolites?

I was hoping the same thing, however it looks like the metabolites are also short lived.

"The serum level of anisic acid and p-methoxyhippuric acid, major metabolites of aniracetam, reached a peak at 2 h after oral administration, and returned to basal level by 6 h"

http://www.sciencedi...166432897860792

[Junk Master]

Excellent. Thanks.

Something to consider when trying to figure out an optimal dosing schedule for aniracetam.

In a nutshell, take it two hours before a block of work/study and redose after 4-5 hours.

[jadamgo]

http://onlinelibrary...2.tb00216.x/pdf
Check the section on Mechanisms of Action.
Another source, which reveals some interesting data I hadn't found before: http://mtnviewfarm.n...isons-0119.html

It is conceivable that a "rebound alertness" would result from a sedative wearing off. That's what I assumed the second phase of aniracetam was when I first noticed it. Then I found the research on its metabolites. Based on that conclusion, I assumed that the vigilance-enhancing effect was more related to generation of N-anisoyl-GABA; this compound stimulates the cholinergic branch of the reticular activating system.

[health_nutty]

http://onlinelibrary...2.tb00216.x/pdf
Check the section on Mechanisms of Action.
Another source, which reveals some interesting data I hadn't found before: http://mtnviewfarm.n...isons-0119.html

It is conceivable that a "rebound alertness" would result from a sedative wearing off. That's what I assumed the second phase of aniracetam was when I first noticed it. Then I found the research on its metabolites. Based on that conclusion, I assumed that the vigilance-enhancing effect was more related to generation of N-anisoyl-GABA; this compound stimulates the cholinergic branch of the reticular activating system.

Weird, that site doesn't list any references and the data doesn't match any studies I can find:

===============================================

Half–life.

For the parent drug, aniracetam, the half–life is 30 min and for its metabolites, 12.8 to 15.7 h.

================================================

[jadamgo]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to the half life problem. A wide range of half-lives is reported for the same metabolites, and it's hard to tell which ones are explicitly derived from studies on humans and which ones are derived from the rodent studies.

The best thing I can say is that my experience shows about 5 hours of stimulant effect after the initial hour or two of anxiolytic effects. As different people metabolize drugs differently, each person may have to find out for him/herself how long the stimulating effects last. This is pretty easy in practice -- you'll know when it's wearing off, and after several hours of work it's probably time for a brief break anyway, which would be a great time to re-dose and perhaps get a cup of coffee or tea.

[Junk Master]

I just had a sleep study done and I'd love to have another done after taking a dose of aniracetam within two hours of sleeping to compare. I really wonder what the effects would be on brainwave patterns, sleep architecture.

[health_nutty]

Yeah, I don't know the answer to the half life problem. A wide range of half-lives is reported for the same metabolites, and it's hard to tell which ones are explicitly derived from studies on humans and which ones are derived from the rodent studies.

The best thing I can say is that my experience shows about 5 hours of stimulant effect after the initial hour or two of anxiolytic effects. As different people metabolize drugs differently, each person may have to find out for him/herself how long the stimulating effects last. This is pretty easy in practice -- you'll know when it's wearing off, and after several hours of work it's probably time for a brief break anyway, which would be a great time to re-dose and perhaps get a cup of coffee or tea.

Good point. The study I posted was for humans. I've done some searching on google scholar and can't find any evidence to back up the 12-15 hour claim in humans.

[victortsoi]

Wow I've never known that aniracetam had metabolites (I assumed that the racetams were passed "as is" through the bladder, unchanged) but this really makes sense in light of my experiences. I do get the "chilled out" numb feeling almost immediately, but then feel energized and happy after that feeling wears off. I've never thought of metabolites as a reason. I voted for piracetam because it seems more consistent, while aniracetam might make me too amotivated sometimes. I have to rethink how I use it, though, in light of what this threat has taught me regarding metabolite buildup. THe delayed onset of those might beat out piracetam in nootropic effect.

[victortsoi]

I wonder, does pramiracetam also have a "two-wave" mechanism?

[the_newsoul]

To summarize, Aniracetam shud be taken every 4-5 hours?

My experience: the first 2 hours I also feel like someone previously said more happy. I would say i also feel more sociable, relaxed, etc.

After 2 hours or so, the feeling is gone and i may feel amotivated some time. But honestly i never felt that my cognition improved. Any comments?

I am very interested on getting to know what is the best way to take it.

[khemix]

Aniracetam is more potent I believe, meaning a lower dose is required to get the main effect. Are the two drugs the same? Of course not, they are merely of the same class. Is Xanax the same as Klonopin just because they are both benzodiazepines? They are mostly the same, but there are slight differences. This is also true of the racetams.

Because a drug has a different molecular structure you never know what it is doing to different receptors in the brain outside of the main mechanism of action. This I believe explains why different racetams produce slightly different effects adjuct to the main one.


I personally found aniracetam more "speedy" and far shorter lived. I just picked up a batch of 50g though and am going to give it another run.