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Too much talk and too little action


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31 replies to this topic

#1 Marco

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 02:22 PM


I have been reading these boards for some time now, and the topics are quite enjoyable and interesting and I see a lot of people sharing my point of view for archiving a transhumanistic state for the mankind or who ever will choose to receive enhanced abilities whenever we reach a state where such is possible.

My problem is although that nobody really knows what they can do about it. There is more debate and wishful thinking than actions. The question remains, what can we actively do to speed up the process that we are all looking to reach?

I am most likely talking money here, it is what drives the world anyway. Where can we "invest" money to move things, to a direction that actually holds a benefit for creating a result?

#2 Mind

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 03:48 PM

Lots of talk and not a lot of action. Many people have mentioned this through the years and this is really a common factor throughout society.

Take a look at the banner at the top of this thread. Reason, Imminst, LEF, and Naapi all put some money toward the prize and in less than one year the TLM team has risen from #199 to #90. PPD has increased 1,300%. This is a great achievement considering there are hundreds of thousands of teams out there. Some money was invested with many potential avenues of positive returns (meme exposure, number-crunching, bio-research, solidarity, etc...). Folding@home is the biggest super computer in the world and our team is going to be a significant percentage of the effort.

Some other things listed here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=26512

It would be great to have a billion dollars to invest in research, but what we need as well is more hands pitching in on small things. It is simple as going to one of the chat meetings and tossing around some ideas. If you are there then you are aware of what is going on and might be able to lend your expertise. What is your niche Marco?

Edited by Mind, 25 January 2009 - 03:48 PM.


#3 Marco

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:06 PM

Lots of talk and not a lot of action. Many people have mentioned this through the years and this is really a common factor throughout society.

Take a look at the banner at the top of this thread. Reason, Imminst, LEF, and Naapi all put some money toward the prize and in less than one year the TLM team has risen from #199 to #90. PPD has increased 1,300%. This is a great achievement considering there are hundreds of thousands of teams out there. Some money was invested with many potential avenues of positive returns (meme exposure, number-crunching, bio-research, solidarity, etc...). Folding@home is the biggest super computer in the world and our team is going to be a significant percentage of the effort.

Some other things listed here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=26512

It would be great to have a billion dollars to invest in research, but what we need as well is more hands pitching in on small things. It is simple as going to one of the chat meetings and tossing around some ideas. If you are there then you are aware of what is going on and might be able to lend your expertise. What is your niche Marco?


Hmm I am not quite into the whole PPD thing you are mentioning. Can you link me to a place so that I know what exactly you mean.

Yeah a billion would be good! I actually read that the money spend toward the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from the "world society" would be enough to make a medical breakthrough and cure one mayor disease.

My niche, well I dont really have any niche other than wanting to live forever, heh. I do investments and run some companies, other than that, still freshman when it comes to getting involved in this sector.

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#4 kismet

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:27 PM

Hmm I am not quite into the whole PPD thing you are mentioning. Can you link me to a place so that I know what exactly you mean.

http://folding.extre...eam_list.php?s=
There you go, as a top contender you will get exposure within the biggest and most renown hardware communities world-wide. And we obviously help to advance science with folding!

Yeah a billion would be good! I actually read that the money spend toward the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from the "world society" would be enough to make a medical breakthrough and cure one mayor disease.

My niche, well I dont really have any niche other than wanting to live forever, heh. I do investments and run some companies, other than that, still freshman when it comes to getting involved in this sector.

Most important way you can help in the near term, support healthy life extension with donations and other means:
http://mfoundation.o...ions_membership
Half of every donation you make is matched by Peter Thiel, so that you effecitvely donate 1,5 the money you spent.

#5 Vgamer1

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 03:15 AM

...
My problem is although that nobody really knows what they can do about it. There is more debate and wishful thinking than actions. The question remains, what can we actively do to speed up the process that we are all looking to reach?
...

One thing that an average member of imminst can do for the cause is to start participating in some of the projects that are popping up. You already have experience with forum posting and imminst ideologies, right? Why not spread those ideologies to other forums and potentially recruit members?

This started as an unofficial project not long ago actually. The thread is here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=27042

Now it has become part of a larger project called the "internetworking team." That thread is here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=27351

I know you might not think these are the potentially best way to get things moving, but it's a start and it's something that every imminst member could be a part of. If you're interested you could post start reading either thread (I'd prefer if you read mine, which is the first one :p) and become part of the team.

#6 Forever21

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 02:21 PM

I have been reading these boards for some time now, and the topics are quite enjoyable and interesting and I see a lot of people sharing my point of view for archiving a transhumanistic state for the mankind or who ever will choose to receive enhanced abilities whenever we reach a state where such is possible.

My problem is although that nobody really knows what they can do about it. There is more debate and wishful thinking than actions. The question remains, what can we actively do to speed up the process that we are all looking to reach?

I am most likely talking money here, it is what drives the world anyway. Where can we "invest" money to move things, to a direction that actually holds a benefit for creating a result?


Another place to invest is to your own company. Grow your business and generate wealth. Then invest millions to causes that you believe in.

Edited by Forever21, 01 February 2009 - 03:50 PM.


#7 Marco

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:49 PM

Yeah well, I guess a lot of small projects could have an impact on the whole picture. But face it, without someone throwing in 100 billion dollars or more there is no realistic chance of archiving a real solution. It would require more than just passion, it would require an army of well educated doctors, biologists and scientists that works on a project with one aim as its goal.

Our problem is that religion blocks these kinds of things, and will for a long time to come, as no country or countries will be able to justify an investment of this magnitude. Growing our own business and investing money is also a kind of waste, a few million bucks would not do any good either, I may as well just purchase stocks in a pharma company and hope it will have some sort of effect.

What I do lack is a list of projects, projects or companies that actually actively fight towards solving this problem, and then at least I can see some sense in doing something. The biggest problem toward solving the "live forever" is that there are no real approaches that yield something financially.

I did download the program and have now joined the F@H project, which seems to be the single best creative idea for anyone to become engaged. I would love to see a project like this, where we were able to put money into it, rather than just CPU power. Now that would be nice.

#8 Proconsul

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 07:46 PM

Thank you for raising this question Marco. Actually I wanted to do it myself but since it sounds a bit like a criticism I wanted to wait spreading some more reputation around before talking. But I'll catch the occasion to talk now.

Put in simple words, I think the only way to make fast progress in short time is to convince people with a lot of $ to join us. I know it sounds a little dumb and childish, but some multi-billionair that doesn't want to die of old age in a few decades and is ready to risk investing money in anti-aging research and therapies would me much more useful than convincing 1000 times as many laymen. If we only concentrate ourselves in sensibilising the public opinion to the point that it creates enough pressure to induce politicians to invest in anti-aging... well, I don't want to sound pessimistic but I'm afraid that by the time this strategy starts giving tangible results all of us on this board will already be in the grave - or at best in cryo...

I want to point out this is not a critic to what people is doing here, you are awesome, however it could be useful to think about alternate strategies as the one I proposed. Thank you.

Edited by Proconsul, 01 February 2009 - 07:50 PM.


#9 kismet

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 08:11 PM

Yeah well, I guess a lot of small projects could have an impact on the whole picture. But face it, without someone throwing in 100 billion dollars or more there is no realistic chance of archiving a real solution. It would require more than just passion, it would require an army of well educated doctors, biologists and scientists that works on a project with one aim as its goal.

We need some small or not-so-small breakthrough first to see an abrupt change (if not we may only see gradual changes), e.g. RMR (robust mouse rejuvenation) as Aubrey puts it, or any other such break-through.

Our problem is that religion blocks these kinds of things, and will for a long time to come, as no country or countries will be able to justify an investment of this magnitude. Growing our own business and investing money is also a kind of waste, a few million bucks would not do any good either, I may as well just purchase stocks in a pharma company and hope it will have some sort of effect.

What I do lack is a list of projects, projects or companies that actually actively fight towards solving this problem, and then at least I can see some sense in doing something. The biggest problem toward solving the "live forever" is that there are no real approaches that yield something financially.

We do have the mfoundation, imminst, Alcor & other cryonics companies, the government-fundend NIA, biogerontologists all over the world and dozens of other organisations and/or people working on the problems (which/whom - obviously - I can't remember by name, aw bad memory).

I did download the program and have now joined the F@H project, which seems to be the single best creative idea for anyone to become engaged. I would love to see a project like this, where we were able to put money into it, rather than just CPU power. Now that would be nice.

It definitely is one of the most creative ideas imminst/the longevity meme had.

Yes, raising money is extremely important, Proconsul, the guys from the mfoundation often discuss such topics (they even dedicated a sub-forum to it).

#10 Mind

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 10:29 PM

So people like to talk. If we can channel that talk into something valuable then it will be worth it. If you like to discuss supplements and nutrition (or all other topics relating to indefinite life extension and immortality) then go to the Imminst wiki and put in some information. All members can edit the wiki.

Caliban and Mondey have started a supplements wiki.

I have started a lifestyle (diet, nutrition, exercise) wiki page(s)

Join in an help build the most in depth semantically connected life extension wiki on the net.

#11 gavrilov

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 01:22 AM

Dear All:

There is an unique gold opportunity to make a great real difference now, but the window of this opportunity is quite short -- about one week starting today.

Contact your Senator now (and encourage all your friends to do the same), with a suggestion described here:

http://longevity-sci...to-support.html
Shorter weblink:
http://tinyurl.com/dbglgn

This simple immediate action can make a great difference for all of us!

Best wishes,

-- Leonid

----------------------------------------------------
Leonid Gavrilov, Ph.D.
Center on Aging, NORC/University of Chicago
Website: http://longevity-science.org/
Blog: http://longevity-science.blogspot.com/
Our books: http://longevity-sci....org/Books.html

#12 Forever21

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 08:17 AM

Growing our own business and investing money is also a kind of waste, a few million bucks would not do any good either.



Yeah, definitely a waste.

#13 brokenportal

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Posted 02 February 2009 - 07:29 PM

Yeah well, I guess a lot of small projects could have an impact on the whole picture. But face it, without someone throwing in 100 billion dollars or more there is no realistic chance of archiving a real solution. It would require more than just passion, it would require an army of well educated doctors, biologists and scientists that works on a project with one aim as its goal.

Our problem is that religion blocks these kinds of things, and will for a long time to come, as no country or countries will be able to justify an investment of this magnitude. Growing our own business and investing money is also a kind of waste, a few million bucks would not do any good either, I may as well just purchase stocks in a pharma company and hope it will have some sort of effect.

What I do lack is a list of projects, projects or companies that actually actively fight towards solving this problem, and then at least I can see some sense in doing something. The biggest problem toward solving the "live forever" is that there are no real approaches that yield something financially.

I did download the program and have now joined the F@H project, which seems to be the single best creative idea for anyone to become engaged. I would love to see a project like this, where we were able to put money into it, rather than just CPU power. Now that would be nice.


There are a lot of projects that are working to get through to those billionaires, and politicians who control the funds, and all those people who can give 10,000, 100,000, or 1,000,000,000 dollars. By getting through to people slowly but surely by the hundreds and thousands we are increasing the percentage of billionaires and celebrities and research minded people that we get through to. Not to mention they all help get through to even more.

If you need something to fund directly, theres Imminst, theres the Mprize, theres SENS, there is MFURI, there is an AGI URI on line 46 that we are working to get more help with developing. There is CEL and CAR, theres a concert in Brussels, and conferences we can promote all the time. The NIA can be donated to and persuaded in different ways. Gavrilov posted a message about it in the topics, and even directly in this topic, that needs everybodies support right away. 3.9 billion for the NIH with that for 2009 is on the line, that cant be stressed enough. There are a bunch of projects floating around Imminst everywhere. A bunch of them are in this LEEEP list. If you cant find something around Imminst or the longevity communities then you can suggest one in LEEEP or start one just about anywhere you want.

Our grassroots efforts are a magnet for all the resources needed for these goals. This reminds me of something Henry Ford said, I cant remember exactly, to paraphrase, “I don’t know much about cars or business, I just surround myself with people that do.” Being in these stages of grass roots, things are still just what they are, developing. You have to work with what there is for now and slowly but surely we build toward a full fledged research juggernaut that will be house hold conversation and daily news in the same way that other stuff like war and the bad economy and pop stars and stuff are now. This reminds me of this song.



Please do name a project here that you think the life extension cause would be well off to get going, or get going more to gain exposure for the cause. Many members have inspired and suggested many projects in in LEEEP.

There is an idea whos seed has been planted on line 42 of the list about listing things that every life extensionist should know about. Maybe you would want to help get that project moving. From what I can see what we will probably do is make four lists of ways people can help with the cause, Science, AGI, Exposure and Philanthropy, and then we will list things that are going for each underneath them so we have something like that to direct people to.

There is spot to list strategies and coordinate efforts for contacting celebrities on line 44. Another good project is a project for encouraging more high level science discussion by creating a spot in the forums that is by invite and application only, and for the rest of the membership it is only readable. We would then incorporate a peer reviewed journal or 5 into this. Its still all in development. If you want to help with it then us know.

#14 gattaca

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 05:01 PM

Forget the singularity. Forget immortalism. The people are not ready to hear these things yet. The true potential of our technological frontier is too immense, and the inevitable conclusions to be drawn from acknowledging it are too alien and removed from our accustomed ways of thinking.

You all need to begin at a much more fundamental level, at a place rooted in the real world that people can understand, and then proceed from there, step by step. Telling someone working at the post office or in your local Denny's that it is inevitable that our brains will be computerized is not going to work. You will appear to most people to be insane.

People are ready to hear this stuff. We live in an age of the internet and gene splicing and space travel to name a few. Your right though, we dont have to unload it on every demographic at once, every one of them is different.

It's a simple process, repeated many times in human history.

The name of the game here, for the first step in the process, is to change people's expectations about what is possible. This is not done by unloading the entire picture on people, but by raising people's expectations about what science is about to do for them personally.

The way to do this is by finding a real problem, such as a specific disease which you project to be cured by a technological advance which is characteristic of the types of advances that lead to the result of singularity. Then you educate the patient populace about it, perhaps through an online community, and in so doing, introduce the concept of technological advancement. By informing the patient base about the technological advancement that has a real concrete impact in their lives, a cure, you will hint at the other possibilities this kind of advancement raises.

The real problem this group and many singularitarians have is insularity. What this community needs to do is actively look for communities and problems anchored in the real world and introduce the mindset of technological optimism. This is what Science Fiction novels did for many of us in the late twentieth century, and it is the first step of many to widespread recognition of the validity of singularitarian claims.

More to come.

Edited by brokenportal, 13 February 2009 - 07:29 PM.


#15 Liquidus

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 06:41 PM

I think the best way to explain the 'lack of action' would be to look at an exponential curve graph. At first, and for a while, it looks like absolutely nothing is happening, and then in a relatively short amount of time, progression explodes skyward. Information technology progresses at an exponential rate, could the reason of what seems to be a lack of 'action' actually be attributed to the 'exponential curve' factor that I just mentioned? I don't know if it applies the same way, but that's how I've come to understand it.

Look at the internet, relatively stagnant for a while (pre-1998), and then within about 4-5 years it exploded into a global phenomenon. Now pretty much everyone and their uncle either has a facebook account, or is on the internet in some capacity.

#16 Liquidus

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 06:54 PM

The name of the game here, for the first step in the process, is to change people's expectations about what is possible. This is not done by unloading the entire picture on people, but by raising people's expectations about what science is about to do for them personally.


This is an important point.

I was listening to a very popular Canadian sports talk show last week, and they were talking about how they watched the 60 minutes documentary featuring Dr. Sinclair and the marvels of red wine and the potential anti-aging implications of their research. The hosts of the show were talking about how our expectations of biology might be changing right in front of our eyes as athletes are playing longer, more healthier careers. They were talking about how the young superstars of today (Alex Ovechkin, LeBron James, etc...) might easily play into their 50s and beyond.

Your point about 'what does it do for them personally' is the most vital part of getting someone 'on board' so to speak. The more people who start to put the pieces together, the better. On a mass scale, people don't care about other people, but on a personal scale (them, friends and family), they'd do pretty much anything to keep themselves or family alive or improve their living conditions.

#17 Mind

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Posted 03 February 2009 - 07:53 PM

What this community needs to do is actively look for communities and problems anchored in the real world and introduce the mindset of technological optimism


Zoolander has mentioned the creation of nutritional pamphlets for distribution to different communities who could benefit from new information. Great idea and creating a good supplements wiki is a good start in that process.

#18 gattaca

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 02:51 AM

What this community needs to do is actively look for communities and problems anchored in the real world and introduce the mindset of technological optimism


Zoolander has mentioned the creation of nutritional pamphlets for distribution to different communities who could benefit from new information. Great idea and creating a good supplements wiki is a good start in that process.


The supplement angle is only really useful to the already converted. Supplements may be useful as an alternative or supplement to traditional medicine for the treatment of some ailments, but they themselves are not products of the technological acceleration asserted by singularitarianism. The only proper nexus between current supplements available on the market and singularitarianism is their use for achieving "escape velocity," as Kurzweil describes in his book, "The Fantastic Voyage." It should be apparent that the only individuals interested in achieving "escape velocity" are those who already believe that current scientific progress holds the potential for immortalism in their lifetime, delivered in whatever manner. Furthermore, introducing transhumanism through supplement outreach faces considerable marketplace noise due to competing interests, such as for-profit multi-level marketing enterprises and certain quasi-religious groups, many of which market themselves with quasi-scientific trappings that can compete with and de-legitimize any scientific claims transhumanist supplement outreach groups might make. This has the added blowback effect of associating our brand with pseudo-scientific claims made by such outfits.

Supplement outreach is not an appropriate outlet for transhumanist proselytism.

Edited by gattaca, 04 February 2009 - 03:05 AM.


#19 gattaca

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 03:00 AM

And since I neglected to address this point in my previous post because I felt it distracting, I will append a further argument against supplement outreach as a means of transhumanist and singularitarian proselytism.

One might argue that by educating individuals about and causing them to use supplements not for the purpose of maintaining normal health, treating diseases, or the prevention of disease, but for the achievement of above-normal performance, one would subtly educate them about the notion of becoming something "more than baseline," or beyond human. This slight effect would make them more receptive to other, similar technologies that might augment them, and so on, and so on, in a manner quite easily grasped without further description. I agree with this. However, this impulse towards self improvement already exists. Individuals have access to technologies which in a previous age would have rendered them godlike in comparison to their human contemporaries. We have no shortage of already employed technologies of augmentation whose use is widely accepted by the populace. I believe this process of discovering and assimulating technology which improves and augments beyond the human baseline is an already unfolding process which does not require any encouragement on our part. Our efforts are best expended elsewhere. This, in addition to the brand-tarnishing difficulties mentioned in my previous post, leads me to my quite conclusive assessment that supplementation outreach is an inappropriate avenue for transhumanist and singularitarian proselytism.

Edited by gattaca, 04 February 2009 - 03:08 AM.


#20 JLL

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 09:56 PM

I agree with gattaca.

I thought the "what if we had more time" flyers by Joseph were definitely a step in the right direction: they have potential to appeal to the masses and get people thinking, which is what we need. I though the idea was to have a website devoted to that idea, but apparently the link whatifwehadmoretime.com just redirects to imminst.org.

I don't think the imminst.org website appeals to the average person much: to him/her, "f@h" looks like an email address gone wrong, cryonics sounds too damn cold, and the forum discussions much too difficult/uninteresting. The website design is not bad per se, but it's not very inviting either. And some of the things even look really bad, for example the blogs. Have you seen what blogs look like these days? They're visually pleasing. Not so with imminst.org blogs.

Right now, the whole website assumes that the average visitor has some grasp of the ideas behind immortality and wants to educate himself, but I think this is a wrong assumption. I think the correct assumption is that the average visitor has a NEGATIVE attitude towards life extension. Making people think "what if I really did have more time" is a good step in the right direction, but for a person who stumbles on this site for the first time, the question is not how to maximize the absorption of resveratrol, it's "Isn't aging inevitable? If not, is there currently anything I can do to live longer?"

In other words, I think a new marketing strategy is needed. That's what I would spend the money on. In fact, I would make whatifwehadmoretime.com into an entry-level website of its own with "sponsored by" links to imminst.org, where "hardcore" life extensionists could exchange ideas. Currently, this is pretty much preaching to the choir.

#21 Forever21

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:59 AM

I don't think the imminst.org website appeals to the average person much: to him/her


I couldn't agree more. In fact I find the website AND the forum unfriendly to such folks.

Edited by Forever21, 13 February 2009 - 02:59 AM.


#22 Proconsul

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 04:55 PM

Yes, raising money is extremely important, Proconsul, the guys from the mfoundation often discuss such topics (they even dedicated a sub-forum to it).


Hi! Actually what I meant was not simply fund raising. I meant recruiting people with large economic assets and having them directly involved, for instance creating a pharmaceutical or biotechnology company devolved to anti-ageing. Or if they already possessed one, persuading them to divert some of their resources to anti-ageing. Of course such initiative would be risky and so perhaps not so worth on a purely economic point of view (high initial costs and unsure or late profits). But if such people were personally interested in the anti-ageing issue - for instance because they were seriously worried about their own ageing and death - there is a serious possibility that they could go for it. A private company focusing its resources on fighting ageing could probably achieve much more than scattered research efforts at the universities - and they wouldn't have to endure the various Kass behind their back all the time. A private company could even circumvent law obstacle by opening a research institute or a factory in a country where laws are less unfriendly.

Edited by Proconsul, 13 February 2009 - 04:57 PM.


#23 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 07:30 PM

Forget the singularity. Forget immortalism. The people are not ready to hear these things yet. The true potential of our technological frontier is too immense, and the inevitable conclusions to be drawn from acknowledging it are too alien and removed from our accustomed ways of thinking.

You all need to begin at a much more fundamental level, at a place rooted in the real world that people can understand, and then proceed from there, step by step. Telling someone working at the post office or in your local Denny's that it is inevitable that our brains will be computerized is not going to work. You will appear to most people to be insane.

People are ready to hear this stuff. We live in an age of the internet and gene splicing and space travel to name a few. Your right though, we dont have to unload it on every demographic at once, every one of them is different.


I wouldnt tell somebody at Dennys that our brains are inevitably interfacing either, but I would mention the work going on around it. I would also offhandedly mention life extension and how it may seem a bit far off but that in an age of gene splicing to cure diseases and nanobots who fit on the head of a pin by the hundreds and all that, that it is only a matter of time now, and that the cause has recently picked up steam on shows like 60 minutes, colbert report, ted talks, barbara walters special, etc.. Informing people rather then entering it as a debate of the points, and using things like appeals to authority work. There is a list of techniques like that collecting on line 36 of this project list. Its called "Combating the pro aging trance." They arent fool proof, but its a good place to help build on them and work on them.

We live in an existence filled with dreamers and thinkers, a lot of people want to beleive in something great like this. Most people in the world beleive in some form of invisible man in the sky. They want to beleive. They want something to grasp on to and give them hope, they want a common cause to fight for.

Other general techniques to getting through to people besides unloading on them all at once, like you say, that isnt the best way to do it, is to remember that people generally need to hear about a concept from around 3 or so different credible sources before they begin to beleive it. So if they hear somebody like us talk about it and it doesnt get through to them, then eventually many of them are going to hear or see a blurb about it on tv or a newspaper somewhere. Then they may drive past one of the conferences or something like that and then many of them are going to be much more apt to start beleiving this. I cant tell you how many life extension supporters Ive found who said they got into it when they saw Aubrey on tv or in a magazine or something. All of our memeing pays off, it all comes together in the end.

We also want to follow up when we can and keep a technique in mind that some people call the wedge. You get somebody talking about a concept, crack open thought for the idea in their head, and then you follow it up by bringing them more and more information from other people and sources over time. The internetworking team on line 39 here is one good example of this, please join that today. You go to other forums, start a topic about this. People comment on it opening the idea in their head. Then another internetworking team member or two comes along later and wedges the idea a little wider into their head by making some positive comments of support and informing more about it. Then as the discussion develops some links and life extensionists names are passed around and finally you invite them back to Imminst, or MF, or CAR or wherever.

It's a simple process, repeated many times in human history.

The name of the game here, for the first step in the process, is to change people's expectations about what is possible. This is not done by unloading the entire picture on people, but by raising people's expectations about what science is about to do for them personally.

The way to do this is by finding a real problem, such as a specific disease which you project to be cured by a technological advance which is characteristic of the types of advances that lead to the result of singularity. Then you educate the patient populace about it, perhaps through an online community, and in so doing, introduce the concept of technological advancement. By informing the patient base about the technological advancement that has a real concrete impact in their lives, a cure, you will hint at the other possibilities this kind of advancement raises.


Thats one good technique on working to get through to certain demographics. If you want some more help outlining and discussing projects for this then let me know. Please also consider fitting them in on the project that collects ways to combat the pro aging trance on line 36 of that project list.

The real problem this group and many singularitarians have is insularity. What this community needs to do is actively look for communities and problems anchored in the real world and introduce the mindset of technological optimism. This is what Science Fiction novels did for many of us in the late twentieth century, and it is the first step of many to widespread recognition of the validity of singularitarian claims.

More to come.


Good idea, we have collected many projects for working on things like this in that projects list. Its called LEEEP, the over view topic about it is here.

Edited by brokenportal, 13 February 2009 - 08:38 PM.


#24 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 07:56 PM

What this community needs to do is actively look for communities and problems anchored in the real world and introduce the mindset of technological optimism


Zoolander has mentioned the creation of nutritional pamphlets for distribution to different communities who could benefit from new information. Great idea and creating a good supplements wiki is a good start in that process.


The supplement angle is only really useful to the already converted. Supplements may be useful as an alternative or supplement to traditional medicine for the treatment of some ailments, but they themselves are not products of the technological acceleration asserted by singularitarianism. The only proper nexus between current supplements available on the market and singularitarianism is their use for achieving "escape velocity," as Kurzweil describes in his book, "The Fantastic Voyage." It should be apparent that the only individuals interested in achieving "escape velocity" are those who already believe that current scientific progress holds the potential for immortalism in their lifetime, delivered in whatever manner. Furthermore, introducing transhumanism through supplement outreach faces considerable marketplace noise due to competing interests, such as for-profit multi-level marketing enterprises and certain quasi-religious groups, many of which market themselves with quasi-scientific trappings that can compete with and de-legitimize any scientific claims transhumanist supplement outreach groups might make. This has the added blowback effect of associating our brand with pseudo-scientific claims made by such outfits.

Supplement outreach is not an appropriate outlet for transhumanist proselytism.


I agree with all of this. Supplements are good, but tying them together with this site to closely has its drawbacks. For one, every where I go I see infomercials and efforts by vitamin companies to try to disguise themselves and trick me into buying vitamins. Many indefinite life extensionists think thats what this is. I think that we are on the right track though and that a proper union between imminst and the supps section can be created if we stick to it and dont give up on finding a workable scenerio that is best all around. Many solutions have been gone over and the active topics split is now being worked on and may be the answer. For example, if we had two big buttons on the front page, something like, "supplements and nootropics" and "radical indefinite life extension" then that could potentially straighten that all out the best.

#25 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:12 PM

I agree with this. However, this impulse towards self improvement already exists.


I agree. This is part of what I was getting at in post #23.

In addition I want to clarify that I support supplements. I think they are a good way for meming in for certain demographics and they are good for things like helping acheive escape velocity and stuff like you say. I think the supps wiki section is an excellent idea and fully support it. From what I can see, things are doing well in their growth around here, and havent gotten out of hand with balance and proportion, supps is growing a little off balanced, but that is mostly due to radical life extension not growing more. We do need to be sure to keep it in mind lest the sense of proportion does grow way off course.

Get in on radical projects. This topic says that there is to much talk and not enough action. It seems to me there isnt enough talk or action. In order to get more radical action going, we need more radical discussion. To that end, one thing people can join in on is the 72 team project. Please join it today.

#26 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:35 PM

I agree with gattaca.

I thought the "what if we had more time" flyers by Joseph were definitely a step in the right direction: they have potential to appeal to the masses and get people thinking, which is what we need. I though the idea was to have a website devoted to that idea, but apparently the link whatifwehadmoretime.com just redirects to imminst.org.


That flyer is a great idea, and there are more here for anybody interested: http://www.imminst.o...o...30&start=30 Please do add more.

I don't think the imminst.org website appeals to the average person much: to him/her, "f@h" looks like an email address gone wrong, cryonics sounds too damn cold, and the forum discussions much too difficult/uninteresting. The website design is not bad per se, but it's not very inviting either. And some of the things even look really bad, for example the blogs. Have you seen what blogs look like these days? They're visually pleasing. Not so with imminst.org blogs.


The web site is constantly evolving and adding more and better content. If you want to help do that then please by all means do. Not to mention the current state and any state of the forums is relative to perspective and works great for different kinds of demographics. If you mean though that it would be good to expand our scope and maximize our demographical influence, then I agree, I think that should be done, at least to a certain degree, and maybe to a large degree also.

There are many different kinds of strategies being worked on for memeing people in in all sorts of ways. One list of strategies to get in on is here. Please do. One project in particular that sounds like something you might be interested in is the Longevity Communities Network page that some of us are working on. Its on line 2 here.

Interested people, join the team today. We need you like theres no tomorrow.

Edited by brokenportal, 13 February 2009 - 08:43 PM.


#27 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:37 PM

I meant recruiting people with large economic assets and having them directly involved,


Good idea, if you want help discussing this more and getting the roots of something like this going then let me know.

#28 brokenportal

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 08:56 PM

I think the best way to explain the 'lack of action' would be to look at an exponential curve graph.


Exactly, things are picking up. This is the calm before the storm. Now is the time to jump over those fences and grab those bulls by the horns and ride them for all their worth. Momentum is disasterous to barriers. Add as much of your weight as you can today. Like Martin Luther King Jr. said, "If you can't fly then run, if you can't run then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward."

Your point about 'what does it do for them personally' is the most vital part of getting someone 'on board' so to speak.


True, and that can be tweaked for most demographics. Sometimes you can use radically different approaches, but most of the time the 'what does it do for them personally' stays the same. People can, do and continue more and more to embrace their healthy lives and the chance to continue on into this great infinite unknown. Theres a lot of doing to be done out there and people understand that. One of the major barriers we face is that death has been engrained in our society since the dawn of time. Its not going to be easy to shake that out of people but it can be done, we do it, and we continue to do it. We need every ounce of effort we can get in on this today. Please join where you can, and where you cant, make room and join there too.

Edited by brokenportal, 13 February 2009 - 08:57 PM.


#29 JLL

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 10:42 PM

The supplement wiki is a great idea, but it looks crappy. We should hire some cheap labour to turn it into an attractive website, and we should do the same to the whole imminst.org site. There's not much programming to do, so it wouldn't cost too much, and just a simple but effective layout would make a huge difference. I mean, Christ, just look at the "blogs" link to see what I'm talking about. Who's gonna read blogs that look like the Internet in '94? For a group of future-oriented people, this site sure looks aesthetically stuck in the past.

#30 brokenportal

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:21 AM

The supplement wiki is a great idea, but it looks crappy. We should hire some cheap labour to turn it into an attractive website, and we should do the same to the whole imminst.org site. There's not much programming to do, so it wouldn't cost too much, and just a simple but effective layout would make a huge difference. I mean, Christ, just look at the "blogs" link to see what I'm talking about. Who's gonna read blogs that look like the Internet in '94? For a group of future-oriented people, this site sure looks aesthetically stuck in the past.


I dont see much difference between the imminst wiki and wikipedia, and wikipedia is huge and world renowned. I agree though, where there is room to aestetically build on things, then by all means do. For example, maybe we could get a big helix in the center with the main imminst wiki links surrounding it like wikipedia does with their big ball made of puzzle peices.

As for the whole imminst.org site, as far as I know, these are good quality IPB forums that a lot of different forums use. Is there even a way to spruce them up? If so its a good idea for people to work on that, but Im not sure it can be done. The front page can be spruced up, but from what I can see it already looks great. If somebody wants to draw up a theme for consideration then go ahead. One thing I hope to see added to the front page is a set of pop up video ads with somebody like mind advertising some of the key aspects and time sensative issues of imminst.

As for the blogs, I responded to your comment in the blog topic too. For anybody interested, there is a discussion about the imminst blogs here.

Edited by brokenportal, 20 February 2009 - 02:23 AM.





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