177 replies to this topic

[2tender]

This is more than interesting. I hope you follow through and are able to post test results.

[pkands]

Have you tried niacinamide to increase substrate for NAD+? Depletion by resveratrol is one hypothetical reason for joint pain.

Thanks, but I'm insulin resistant so I'm a little hesitant to try that. Aching joints is a common symptom among men who have driven their estradiol levels too low from Arimidex or some other aromatase inhibitor. Since resveratrol supposedly possesses some SERM-like properties that seems to me the most likely explanation in my case. I will get lab work to verify.

I thought insulin resistance could be induced with niacin not niacinamide. A quick online search shows mixed results with most info being somewhat dated.
I am experiencing some ankle pain that might be related to resveratrol and was planning to try niacinamide but now I am confused.
Does anyone know of any recent info about this?

[fatboy]

Have you tried niacinamide to increase substrate for NAD+? Depletion by resveratrol is one hypothetical reason for joint pain.

Thanks, but I'm insulin resistant so I'm a little hesitant to try that. Aching joints is a common symptom among men who have driven their estradiol levels too low from Arimidex or some other aromatase inhibitor. Since resveratrol supposedly possesses some SERM-like properties that seems to me the most likely explanation in my case. I will get lab work to verify.

I thought insulin resistance could be induced with niacin not niacinamide. A quick online search shows mixed results with most info being somewhat dated.
I am experiencing some ankle pain that might be related to resveratrol and was planning to try niacinamide but now I am confused.
Does anyone know of any recent info about this?

I'm sure you've already found this one, and it is dated, but given that I have already been diagnosed with and am being treated for metabolic syndrome, a single study is all I need to be hesitant and wary.

http://grande.nal.us...p;therow=105181

[pkands]

Have you tried niacinamide to increase substrate for NAD+? Depletion by resveratrol is one hypothetical reason for joint pain.

Thanks, but I'm insulin resistant so I'm a little hesitant to try that.

I thought insulin resistance could be induced with niacin not niacinamide.

I'm sure you've already found this one, and it is dated, but given that I have already been diagnosed with and am being treated for metabolic syndrome, a single study is all I need to be hesitant and wary.

http://grande.nal.us...p;therow=105181

No, I didn't see that one. I do see your point.

Edited by Michael, 24 July 2009 - 05:58 PM.
Trim quote

[geddarkstorm]

There are also men on TRT taking aromatase inhibitors to control estradiol. Been on 1g of resveratrol for three months now and am experiencing pain/soreness in the tendons of my elbows. Not going to stop taking it, but labs are next week and I may need to adjust some other meds in response. Been taking 2000 IU's of D3 daily for over a year now, so that ain't it.

Interesting, I would expect the causes to be different between people; it'll be very helpful to see what your lab results show.

How have you been on getting direct sunlight exposure? As posted above, there is a non-vitamin D3 related phenomenon to abolishing aromatase inhibitor induced joint pain that has to do with the circadian systems, and requires direct sunlight affecting the retina (not /looking/ at direct sunlight, but being out in it). We've seen two possible anecdotal reports that link the two together as well (sunlight and attenuating joint pain). It would be really interesting to me to know how your daily dose of vitamin Sun has been.

Still, don't expect the causes to manifest or be treated in the same way for everyone - but a lowering of estrogen seems to be the most common theme appearing now.

[fatboy]

How have you been on getting direct sunlight exposure? As posted above, there is a non-vitamin D3 related phenomenon to abolishing aromatase inhibitor induced joint pain that has to do with the circadian systems, and requires direct sunlight affecting the retina (not /looking/ at direct sunlight, but being out in it). We've seen two possible anecdotal reports that link the two together as well (sunlight and attenuating joint pain). It would be really interesting to me to know how your daily dose of vitamin Sun has been.

In the winter, my Vitamin Sun = Vitamin None. My circadian rhythms are regulated via exogenous melatonin. Come to think of it, a lot of my hormones are now regulated exogenously (D3, melatonin, pregnenolone, DHEA, testosterone - but not insulin, at least not yet anyway).

[wydell]

My joints have started to hurt a bit too. I was attributing it to being 40 now, but now I am starting to wonder. I have high testosterone from diet and exercise and have been intaking many potential estrogen reducing substances - resv, cruciferous - fresh and cooked and broccoli sprout extract, wakame and probably some others I don't even know about. While I have always considered reducing estrogen to be a good thing, maybe the cummulative effect of my diet and supps is too much.

Since resv has been associated with a reduction in collagen and estrogen has been associated with an increase in collagen, I wonder if there is a connection here.

I think I am going to go for a blood test after reading this thread.

[fatboy]

While I have always considered reducing estrogen to be a good thing, maybe the cummulative effect of my diet and supps is too much.

In men at least, estrogen is a tricky thing to balance. (I would wager that in women, testosterone is equally tricky.) For example, too much estrogen = no libido and ED (and potentially an increased risk of prostate cancer), while too little estrogen = no libido and ED (and potentially sore and "clicky" joints). To make it worse, each man seems to have their own individual sweet spot. Finding it requires trial and error coupled with (possibly very many) lab tests and subjective experience.

[geddarkstorm]

In the winter, my Vitamin Sun = Vitamin None. My circadian rhythms are regulated via exogenous melatonin. Come to think of it, a lot of my hormones are now regulated exogenously (D3, melatonin, pregnenolone, DHEA, testosterone - but not insulin, at least not yet anyway).

It's also important to note that the study that showed sunlight abolishing aromatase inhibitor based joint pain did so by suppressing melatonin release. Adequate, full spectrum light keeps melatonin from being circulated in our system, so this suggests that taking melatonin on top of lacking adequate sunlight for the inhibition of natural melatonin release leads to joint pain, at least when paired with an aromatase inhibitor such as resveratrol.

Hm, quite interesting, so now we have even more evidence linking this resveratrol induced joint pain to lack of sunlight and its aromatase inhibitor activity. This so far has been the only consistent suggested cause, though we don't have conclusive proof and we are still far from ruling out everything else. Hopefully some researcher who works in the field will see this and decide to do a few tests...

On another note, resveratrol can act as an estrogen receptor agonist to mimic estrogen, or antagonist to inhibit estrogen, depending on the cell type and state (in cancers, it acts as an antagonist, which is one method by which it fights breast cancer). It seems to be suggested now that in joints somehow this activity, when paired with abnormal amounts of melatonin, equals pain - but all human in vivo, ex vivo, and in vitro studies have shown resveratrol to significantly strengthen and even regenerate joint tissue, so at least we don't have to worry about it doing actual damage, just this aberrant pain signaling for some people.

Edited by geddarkstorm, 11 February 2009 - 05:37 PM.

[fatboy]

It's also important to note that the study that showed sunlight abolishing aromatase inhibitor based joint pain did so by suppressing melatonin release.

Blimey, how'm I gonna get my sleep now that you've taken my melatonin away. Don't really want to go back to the jellies. Think I'll just keep icing/capsaicin the elbows, check my E2, and adjust meds appropriately.

BTW, some hypogonadal folk in the know (not me, I'm just a lowly computer scientist) who have or are experiencing this are postulating that this phenomenon is somehow associated with low E2 disrupting or otherwise modifying the amount of hyaluronan in synovial fluid rather than the mineral depletion associated with long-term too-low E2 (since the symptoms appear within days of too-low E2 and disappear within days of correction).

[sUper GeNius]

I have had issues with joints, mostly the legs. They have a very dull ache, almost like a restless feeling. I find myself moving my legs alot when in bed to stop the sensation. It'll sometimes wake me up from sleep, and sometimes I need to take an ibuprofen to go to sleep. I have it during the day too, but not as badly. Sometimes it's one leg, other times the other. I have it in my fingers as I type this. Stretching the fingers, like one would do when cracking knuckles, stops the feeling for a few minutes.

[Proconsul]

Can niacin be an alternative to nicotinamide (niacinamide) to counter the joint side effect of resv? Niacin is converted to niacinamide in the body and the two have identical activity as vitamins. Niacin has more side effects, but it's easier to find (where I'm living it's not so easy to find supplements) and at low doses side effects shouldn't be a problem. I got also the joint pain issue (on the left elbow) and for the moment I have interrupted with resv (but the pain is still there).

[geddarkstorm]

It's also important to note that the study that showed sunlight abolishing aromatase inhibitor based joint pain did so by suppressing melatonin release.

Blimey, how'm I gonna get my sleep now that you've taken my melatonin away. Don't really want to go back to the jellies. Think I'll just keep icing/capsaicin the elbows, check my E2, and adjust meds appropriately.

BTW, some hypogonadal folk in the know (not me, I'm just a lowly computer scientist) who have or are experiencing this are postulating that this phenomenon is somehow associated with low E2 disrupting or otherwise modifying the amount of hyaluronan in synovial fluid rather than the mineral depletion associated with long-term too-low E2 (since the symptoms appear within days of too-low E2 and disappear within days of correction).

Haha, no, no, I don't mean to say don't take melatonin at night. But melatonin is linked to the circadian rhythm, and if the "off" or "awake" signal (sunlight specifically), isn't received, the body will produce it constantly, throwing everything out of whack. There has to be ways to counter this without sunlight - mimicking whatever pathway it works by to reduce melatonin release during the day.

Hm, that is very interesting. I'll have to try to see if hyaluronan and synovial fluid dynamics are controlled by the circadian system, estrogen, melatonin, or any combo of those. Hopefully we'll get research coming out looking at how exactly low estrogen and high melatonin can cause pain in joints, but that is one possible mechanism you list. Quite interesting.

@Proconsul: Niacin should be rather synergistic with resveratrol, as niacin follows a different pathway to conversion of NAD and is not turned into niacinamide except at a very low percentage during uptake. Its side effects have to do with it going through a totally different pathway. Give it a shot and see if it helps you, I'd be really interested in hearing whatever results are.

[mikeinnaples]

1 Gram of Niacin (nicotinic Acid) per day split into two 500mg doses

1 Gram of 99% Resveratrol per day (alchohol + Lecithin method)

100mg CoQ10 5x a week roughly

25mg Simvastatin / day

(also metformin 500mg-1g /day, Melatonin, 4000+IU D3, a bunch of other supps)



No joint pain is the norm ....HOWEVER, I have noticed if I string a few days in a row of not taking CoQ10 my muscles and joints start to feel sore and tight. For instance I typically do not take CoQ10 on the weekend, but lets say for whatever reason I missed friday night, and or monday ....by Tuesday I am feeling aches and pains. My regimine combined with my physical activity makes this pure ancedote because it could be any number of factors. Just though I would throw my experience out there.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 17 February 2009 - 02:26 PM.

[emily1147]

I have been taking 250mg of resveratrol daily for the past month. Right away I noticed a marked increase in joint pain, abdominal bloating and discomfort, and high levels of fatigue. I stopped it and immediately returned to a healthier feeling. Energy is coming back, joint pain is less severe but still present. I've only been off resveratrol for a week. I'll wait until I feel back to baseline, then retry it once again. I never discount coincidence in matters such as these. But the onset of this joint pain was quite dramatic after beginning the supplement.

I'll let you know how my experiment turns out.

[maxwatt]

I have been taking 250mg of resveratrol daily for the past month. Right away I noticed a marked increase in joint pain, abdominal bloating and discomfort, and high levels of fatigue. I stopped it and immediately returned to a healthier feeling. Energy is coming back, joint pain is less severe but still present. I've only been off resveratrol for a week. I'll wait until I feel back to baseline, then retry it once again. I never discount coincidence in matters such as these. But the onset of this joint pain was quite dramatic after beginning the supplement.

I'll let you know how my experiment turns out.

Abdominal bloating has occurred in 50% resveratrol at that dosage, due to the presence of emodin in extracts of low purity.

Edited by maxwatt, 18 February 2009 - 04:30 AM.

[mcm]

I have been taking 250mg of resveratrol daily for the past month. Right away I noticed a marked increase in joint pain, abdominal bloating and discomfort, and high levels of fatigue. I stopped it and immediately returned to a healthier feeling. Energy is coming back, joint pain is less severe but still present. I've only been off resveratrol for a week. I'll wait until I feel back to baseline, then retry it once again. I never discount coincidence in matters such as these. But the onset of this joint pain was quite dramatic after beginning the supplement.

I'll let you know how my experiment turns out.

I've been taking 500 mg of micronized resveratrol for a little over a month. I have serious joint pain and I've had two colds, which I never get. I'm also going to stop for one week to see if the joint pain gets better. I also take 500 mg of quercetin in FRS energy drink. Not sure if there is something there that is causing a problem.

[geddarkstorm]

1 Gram of Niacin (nicotinic Acid) per day split into two 500mg doses

1 Gram of 99% Resveratrol per day (alchohol + Lecithin method)

100mg CoQ10 5x a week roughly

25mg Simvastatin / day

(also metformin 500mg-1g /day, Melatonin, 4000+IU D3, a bunch of other supps)



No joint pain is the norm ....HOWEVER, I have noticed if I string a few days in a row of not taking CoQ10 my muscles and joints start to feel sore and tight. For instance I typically do not take CoQ10 on the weekend, but lets say for whatever reason I missed friday night, and or monday ....by Tuesday I am feeling aches and pains. My regimine combined with my physical activity makes this pure ancedote because it could be any number of factors. Just though I would throw my experience out there.

Well, that is certainly interesting. You are taking melatonin too huh, but with CoQ you don't experience pain. Resveratrol stimulates the metabolism, and mitochondrial biogenesis. Perhaps in some people CoQ can become limiting, as it is essential for the electron transport chain. There is some precedence to this idea in the literature, with neuropathy (which can mean pain, if gain of function) seen with some statin use that is somewhat alleviated by CoQ supplementation. Also, to me, this sounds oddly akin to "growing pains", which may be a similar event as well. Regrowth or reactivation of deadened nerves would likely result in pain till regeneration was complete, too. Hopefully, as we go and gain more anecdotal evidence, we'll be able to start seeing common themes that connect between people who do experience joint pain, since it isn't the norm, there has to be some underlying factor(s) common with those who get it. Thank you much for this insightful post about yourself.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who is contributing, it is all quite useful. There's a lot of data that is hard to put into posts, and some things we don't pay attention to and have to try to remember and reflect back on - so thank you everyone for what pieces you've given.

I'd like to reiterate that the strongest link we've seen so far is with resveratrol's aromatase inhibitor activity, which can lead to a decrease in estrogen that apparently has been reported to cause joint pain that is solvable with sunlight (regulation of melatonin) and/or vitamin D. For those of you who've recently posted about unresolved pain, please give these two a shot (getting a dedicated 15-30 minutes of direct sunlight exposure, and/or vitamin D supplementation; maybe CoQ too now) and see if they help you at all. My goal here is to pinpoint the cause(s) and culprit(s) behind this resveratrol linked pain (besides dirty, impure supplements) and to find the cure so as to help you all.

One thing we seem to be able to rule out now is niacinamide depletion. We've had people taking niacinamide/niacin with no effect on the joint pain. This also makes sense in light that most conversion to NAD will only result back to niacinamide after NAD using enzymes utilize their now abundant substrate. It's still possible of course, but definitely a much less likely reason from what we've seen so far.

[emily1147]

1 Gram of Niacin (nicotinic Acid) per day split into two 500mg doses

1 Gram of 99% Resveratrol per day (alchohol + Lecithin method)

100mg CoQ10 5x a week roughly

25mg Simvastatin / day

(also metformin 500mg-1g /day, Melatonin, 4000+IU D3, a bunch of other supps)



No joint pain is the norm ....HOWEVER, I have noticed if I string a few days in a row of not taking CoQ10 my muscles and joints start to feel sore and tight. For instance I typically do not take CoQ10 on the weekend, but lets say for whatever reason I missed friday night, and or monday ....by Tuesday I am feeling aches and pains. My regimine combined with my physical activity makes this pure ancedote because it could be any number of factors. Just though I would throw my experience out there.

Well, that is certainly interesting. You are taking melatonin too huh, but with CoQ you don't experience pain. Resveratrol stimulates the metabolism, and mitochondrial biogenesis. Perhaps in some people CoQ can become limiting, as it is essential for the electron transport chain. There is some precedence to this idea in the literature, with neuropathy (which can mean pain, if gain of function) seen with some statin use that is somewhat alleviated by CoQ supplementation. Also, to me, this sounds oddly akin to "growing pains", which may be a similar event as well. Regrowth or reactivation of deadened nerves would likely result in pain till regeneration was complete, too. Hopefully, as we go and gain more anecdotal evidence, we'll be able to start seeing common themes that connect between people who do experience joint pain, since it isn't the norm, there has to be some underlying factor(s) common with those who get it. Thank you much for this insightful post about yourself.

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who is contributing, it is all quite useful. There's a lot of data that is hard to put into posts, and some things we don't pay attention to and have to try to remember and reflect back on - so thank you everyone for what pieces you've given.

I'd like to reiterate that the strongest link we've seen so far is with resveratrol's aromatase inhibitor activity, which can lead to a decrease in estrogen that apparently has been reported to cause joint pain that is solvable with sunlight (regulation of melatonin) and/or vitamin D. For those of you who've recently posted about unresolved pain, please give these two a shot (getting a dedicated 15-30 minutes of direct sunlight exposure, and/or vitamin D supplementation; maybe CoQ too now) and see if they help you at all. My goal here is to pinpoint the cause(s) and culprit(s) behind this resveratrol linked pain (besides dirty, impure supplements) and to find the cure so as to help you all.

One thing we seem to be able to rule out now is niacinamide depletion. We've had people taking niacinamide/niacin with no effect on the joint pain. This also makes sense in light that most conversion to NAD will only result back to niacinamide after NAD using enzymes utilize their now abundant substrate. It's still possible of course, but definitely a much less likely reason from what we've seen so far.

Thank you for the above. Just an FYI, I am very fair and normally take a gram of vitamin D3 daily, and my 25 hydroxy vitamin D levels on one gram was at the bottom of normal. So, in the winter I take 2 grams. I won't take niacinamide since I've seen some of my patients experience hepatotoxicity from it. That leaves me wary of taking it.

Thank you for all your work on these issues. It is much appreciated.

[nowayout]

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who is contributing, it is all quite useful. There's a lot of data that is hard to put into posts, and some things we don't pay attention to and have to try to remember and reflect back on - so thank you everyone for what pieces you've given.

I'd like to reiterate that the strongest link we've seen so far is with resveratrol's aromatase inhibitor activity, which can lead to a decrease in estrogen that apparently has been reported to cause joint pain that is solvable with sunlight (regulation of melatonin) and/or vitamin D. For those of you who've recently posted about unresolved pain, please give these two a shot (getting a dedicated 15-30 minutes of direct sunlight exposure, and/or vitamin D supplementation; maybe CoQ too now) and see if they help you at all. My goal here is to pinpoint the cause(s) and culprit(s) behind this resveratrol linked pain (besides dirty, impure supplements) and to find the cure so as to help you all.

I am not sure if it matters, but are you guys distinguishing between different kinds of joint pain in these anecdotal experiences? The kind of joint pain associated with resveratrol intake is usually tendinitis, isn't it? If so, any evidence that resveratrol may be good for osteoarthritis may be irrelevant.

In my case, as stated earlier in this thread by someone, there might not have been all that much resveratrol in the supplement that I was taking at the time. Nevertheless, I will add a couple of remarks for what they are worth. Regarding the hormonal angle: At about the same time I took the supposed resveratrol, I stopped taking finasteride/dutasteride (for hair loss), which of course led to an increase in my DHT to normal levels for the first time in ten years. In other words, if you are looking to blame hormones, in my case there has indeed been a marked change in hormones. However, which hormone? My estradiol has remained somewhat above the average ideal range (though I do not have any symptoms of high estrogen at all, unless that causes tendinitis also).

Also, I might mention that the tendinitis got worse a couple of weeks ago as I was experimenting with adding pomegranate extract (Jarrow brand, which I believe to be reputable) to my regimen. I stopped and it got better. Coincidence maybe?

[geddarkstorm]

Again, I'd like to thank everyone who is contributing, it is all quite useful. There's a lot of data that is hard to put into posts, and some things we don't pay attention to and have to try to remember and reflect back on - so thank you everyone for what pieces you've given.

I'd like to reiterate that the strongest link we've seen so far is with resveratrol's aromatase inhibitor activity, which can lead to a decrease in estrogen that apparently has been reported to cause joint pain that is solvable with sunlight (regulation of melatonin) and/or vitamin D. For those of you who've recently posted about unresolved pain, please give these two a shot (getting a dedicated 15-30 minutes of direct sunlight exposure, and/or vitamin D supplementation; maybe CoQ too now) and see if they help you at all. My goal here is to pinpoint the cause(s) and culprit(s) behind this resveratrol linked pain (besides dirty, impure supplements) and to find the cure so as to help you all.

I am not sure if it matters, but are you guys distinguishing between different kinds of joint pain in these anecdotal experiences? The kind of joint pain associated with resveratrol intake is usually tendinitis, isn't it? If so, any evidence that resveratrol may be good for osteoarthritis may be irrelevant.

In my case, as stated earlier in this thread by someone, there might not have been all that much resveratrol in the supplement that I was taking at the time. Nevertheless, I will add a couple of remarks for what they are worth. Regarding the hormonal angle: At about the same time I took the supposed resveratrol, I stopped taking finasteride/dutasteride (for hair loss), which of course led to an increase in my DHT to normal levels for the first time in ten years. In other words, if you are looking to blame hormones, in my case there has indeed been a marked change in hormones. However, which hormone? My estradiol has remained somewhat above the average ideal range (though I do not have any symptoms of high estrogen at all, unless that causes tendinitis also).

Also, I might mention that the tendinitis got worse a couple of weeks ago as I was experimenting with adding pomegranate extract (Jarrow brand, which I believe to be reputable) to my regimen. I stopped and it got better. Coincidence maybe?

Well, that goes to show that resveratrol probably wasn't the sole factor behind your joint pain - and no, tendinitis is not the only joint pain associated with resveratrol, but generic joint pain is. Tendinitis to some just means pain in the elbow, but we've seen pain in the legs, fingers, and ankles, more often than the elbow (of course, multiple joint locations can be effected too). This means it's sorta random per person as to where joint pain will manifest, for those few individuals who get it while taking resveratrol.

Your information strengthens the argument that resveratrol was not behind your pain at all, but there is some other underlying factor. Resv could still have had an impact and helped bring it out, but that's it. Moreover, I'm not blaming hormones, only relating what the research has shown - which has been a link between melatonin, the circadian system, and aromatase inhibitors causing joint pain as seen in cancer treatment for breast cancer - and resveratrol is known to lower estrogen in vivo. This is so far our strongest link of all, but it by no means is conclusive or proven, nor is everything else ruled out. None the less, this interplay with melatonin seems likely, as it is a ubiquitous phenomenon that occurs with other aromatase inhibitors, and thus is a general effect, not something mysterious or only related to resveratrol. It's a plausible explanation, that's the thing.

I am unable to diagnose what the issue with your body is that is causing some tendinitis when taking different combinations of supplements. If pomegranate extract can also act to lower estrogen, that would be a possible explanation for that too, but I don't know anything about that extract's effects I'm afraid (and don't have the time to look it up at the moment). Maybe someone else can shed clues on that one.

Thank you for the above. Just an FYI, I am very fair and normally take a gram of vitamin D3 daily, and my 25 hydroxy vitamin D levels on one gram was at the bottom of normal. So, in the winter I take 2 grams. I won't take niacinamide since I've seen some of my patients experience hepatotoxicity from it. That leaves me wary of taking it.

Thank you for all your work on these issues. It is much appreciated.

Very interesting, thank you for this great information. You are now the second person who took vitamin D and shows no prevention or reversal of resveratrol associated joint pain while on resveratrol. This makes the vitamin D angle seem less likely, unless it is a large amount of vitamin D that is needed, and keeps us squarely stuck on sunlight/melatonin for the moment (perhaps CoQ?). I'll keep analyzing everyone's data and see if there's some other theme that comes out. We still have two other possibilities, and Nampt secretion is indeed one of them, but regrettably I don't know what factors control or influence that.

Edited by geddarkstorm, 18 February 2009 - 05:24 PM.

[nowayout]

Tendinitis to some just means pain in the elbow, but we've seen pain in the legs, fingers, and ankles, more often than the elbow (of course, multiple joint locations can be effected too). This means it's sorta random per person as to where joint pain will manifest, for those few individuals who get it while taking resveratrol.

Well, tendinitis can manifest anywhere you have tendons, which includes the knees, ankles, fingers, hips, etc. In other words, all joints can and do get tendinitis.

[geddarkstorm]

Tendinitis to some just means pain in the elbow, but we've seen pain in the legs, fingers, and ankles, more often than the elbow (of course, multiple joint locations can be effected too). This means it's sorta random per person as to where joint pain will manifest, for those few individuals who get it while taking resveratrol.

Well, tendinitis can manifest anywhere you have tendons, which includes the knees, ankles, fingers, hips, etc. In other words, all joints can and do get tendinitis.

That is a good point. But no, resveratrol associated joint pain is not usually tendinitis in any way at all from the sounds of it, so far anyways (tendinitis isn't even pain of the joint in the first place, but will happen when a joint is flexed, in the tendon). Afterall, the tendons are not actually in the joint, but are around and over it where the muscles attach to the bone, and can be very long, dislocalizing pain from simply the joint at times. See here for more descriptions of the symptoms of tendinitis, which can be different for the different joints (i.e. for the ankle, the pain isn't typically even around the ankle joint, but the back of the heel), and which do not match those described by people suffering joint pain with resveratrol at all, so far (i.e. no swelling around and beyond the joint; resveratrol is a known anti-inflammatory anyways). Resveratrol associated pain seems to match that caused by aromatase inhibitors with what we've seen here, which of course are not causing tendinitis either.

Edited by geddarkstorm, 19 February 2009 - 04:59 PM.

[nowayout]

Tendinitis to some just means pain in the elbow, but we've seen pain in the legs, fingers, and ankles, more often than the elbow (of course, multiple joint locations can be effected too). This means it's sorta random per person as to where joint pain will manifest, for those few individuals who get it while taking resveratrol.

Well, tendinitis can manifest anywhere you have tendons, which includes the knees, ankles, fingers, hips, etc. In other words, all joints can and do get tendinitis.

That is a good point. But no, resveratrol associated joint pain is not usually tendinitis in any way at all from the sounds of it, so far anyways. Afterall, the tendons are not actually in the joint, but are around and over it where the muscles attach to the bone, and can be very long, dislocalizing pain from simply the joint at times. See here for more descriptions of the symptoms of tendinitis, which can be different for the different joints (i.e. for the ankle, the pain isn't typically even around the ankle joint, but the back of the heel), and which do not match those described by people suffering joint pain with resveratrol at all, so far (i.e. no swelling around and beyond the joint; resveratrol is a known anti-inflammatory anyways). The pain matches that caused by aromatase inhibitors so far, which of course are not causing tendinitis either.

A good number of people have specifically reported tendinitis when using resveratrol supplements. If you search these and other forums and you will find a significant number of such reports. I was under the impression that the majority of resveratrol joint-related complaints were in fact of tendinitis, but I have not done a count.

I have never had swelling from tendon injuries. Swelling of the joint is much more associated with RA or OA than with tendinitis. At my worst moment I have had tendinitis, as diagnosed by an orthopedist and rheumatologist, that seemed to be inside (the front of) my knee joint, inside or in front of the ankle joint, inside the shoulder joint, and inside the hip joints.

It is not easy for a lay person to diagnose their own joint pains. Until my injuries were diagnosed, I was sure that I must be getting RA.

[geddarkstorm]

A good number of people have specifically reported tendinitis when using resveratrol supplements. If you search these and other forums and you will find a significant number of such reports. I was under the impression that the majority of resveratrol joint-related complaints were in fact of tendinitis, but I have not done a count.

I have never had swelling from tendon injuries. Swelling of the joint is much more associated with RA or OA than with tendinitis. At my worst moment I have had tendinitis, as diagnosed by an orthopedist and rheumatologist, that seemed to be inside (the front of) my knee joint, inside or in front of the ankle joint, inside the shoulder joint, and inside the hip joints.

It is not easy for a lay person to diagnose their own joint pains. Until my injuries were diagnosed, I was sure that I must be getting RA.

No no, read the actual medical definition and symptoms of tendinitis, such as I linked. I never said the joints swell, the tendons swell - which are around the joints, hence flexing a joint causes pain. Not always, but the swelling of the tendon is a hallmark of tendinitis and part of what the condition means. If someone has tendinitis, swelling around the joints will be likely, or at least tenderness around the joint, but not always directly associated with the joint itself. Again, tendons are outside of joints, ligaments are what are inside joints (bone to bone connections). Most of the time people who have said they had "tendinitis" were talking about pain in the joint of their elbow, which does not mean tendinitis at all, it's just what people associate with it off hand in the common culture (tennis elbow).

Tendinitis has nothing to do with the joints, other than arthritis can sometimes cause tendinitis too. The joint pain we have been receiving reports about cannot be, by medical definition, tendinitis from the way it onsets and disappears and the by the other vague details we so far see - though the people can always correct me by defining their pain in details that capture if its tendinitis. Still, it is totally different than direct joint pain (I've had both), and tendon pain does not necessarily have to correlate even near the joint itself, since the tendons extend before and after, and over joints (hence why it can hurt at the joint sometimes, but still above, not within, technically).

Lastly, tendinitis is predominantly caused by tendons rubbing instead of having a smooth surface to glide on, not by anything ingested - it can be a secondary symptom, but usually not primary except for wear and tear. There's no way I can see a small molecule like resveratrol could have any affect on the tendons themselves, unless I'm directly proven otherwise. I have not seen any case on these boards, in my limited looking, where it was actual tendinitis associated with resveratrol and not other factors, you included (all the other junk you were taking in that resveratrol concoction is likely at fault, as you doubtfully had even a fraction of enough resveratrol to make a difference at any level in the body). Once more, all the joint pain we've seen in this thread so far is also not in line with the symptoms of tendinitis, as medically defined, so far as described.

Therefore, the fact is irrefutable: tendinitis is, absolutely by definition, an issue with the tendons, not the joints - but issues with joints can cause tendinitis by extension, after the fact. Therefore, as a secondary cause, but not directly, affects of resveratrol on joints could at the very outer limits of rational theory, affect tendons if somehow the gliding is interrupted (i.e. by swelling in the joints).

Now, I can always be wrong about all this, but every last scrap of information I read about tendinitis verses the descriptions of pain limitedly given here and elsewhere on these boards, seems to be inline with what I'm saying above. I'd need some hefty proof and evidence to make me agree otherwise. If resveratrol is causing tendinitis instead of joint pain (two completely different things!), then all these hypotheses as to how resveratrol could be doing it would have to be modified, or in the case of aromatase inhibitor associated pain, scrapped. The fact aromatase inhibitor associated pain is our strongest link also greatly implies tendons have nothing to do with any of this, unless corollary to what's going on primarily in the joints.

I am always open to correction.

[hmm]

A good number of people have specifically reported tendinitis when using resveratrol supplements. If you search these and other forums and you will find a significant number of such reports. I was under the impression that the majority of resveratrol joint-related complaints were in fact of tendinitis, but I have not done a count.

I have never had swelling from tendon injuries. Swelling of the joint is much more associated with RA or OA than with tendinitis. At my worst moment I have had tendinitis, as diagnosed by an orthopedist and rheumatologist, that seemed to be inside (the front of) my knee joint, inside or in front of the ankle joint, inside the shoulder joint, and inside the hip joints.

It is not easy for a lay person to diagnose their own joint pains. Until my injuries were diagnosed, I was sure that I must be getting RA.

No no, read the actual medical definition and symptoms of tendinitis, such as I linked. I never said the joints swell, the tendons swell - which are around the joints, hence flexing a joint causes pain. Not always, but the swelling of the tendon is a hallmark of tendinitis and part of what the condition means. If someone has tendinitis, swelling around the joints will be likely, or at least tenderness around the joint, but not always directly associated with the joint itself. Again, tendons are outside of joints, ligaments are what are inside joints (bone to bone connections). Most of the time people who have said they had "tendinitis" were talking about pain in the joint of their elbow, which does not mean tendinitis at all, it's just what people associate with it off hand in the common culture (tennis elbow).

Tendinitis has nothing to do with the joints, other than arthritis can sometimes cause tendinitis too. The joint pain we have been receiving reports about cannot be, by medical definition, tendinitis from the way it onsets and disappears and the by the other vague details we so far see - though the people can always correct me by defining their pain in details that capture if its tendinitis. Still, it is totally different than direct joint pain (I've had both), and tendon pain does not necessarily have to correlate even near the joint itself, since the tendons extend before and after, and over joints (hence why it can hurt at the joint sometimes, but still above, not within, technically).

Lastly, tendinitis is predominantly caused by tendons rubbing instead of having a smooth surface to glide on, not by anything ingested - it can be a secondary symptom, but usually not primary except for wear and tear. There's no way I can see a small molecule like resveratrol could have any affect on the tendons themselves, unless I'm directly proven otherwise. I have not seen any case on these boards, in my limited looking, where it was actual tendinitis associated with resveratrol and not other factors, you included (all the other junk you were taking in that resveratrol concoction is likely at fault, as you doubtfully had even a fraction of enough resveratrol to make a difference at any level in the body). Once more, all the joint pain we've seen in this thread so far is also not in line with the symptoms of tendinitis, as medically defined, so far as described.

Therefore, the fact is irrefutable: tendinitis is, absolutely by definition, an issue with the tendons, not the joints - but issues with joints can cause tendinitis by extension, after the fact. Therefore, as a secondary cause, but not directly, affects of resveratrol on joints could at the very outer limits of rational theory, affect tendons if somehow the gliding is interrupted (i.e. by swelling in the joints).

Now, I can always be wrong about all this, but every last scrap of information I read about tendinitis verses the descriptions of pain limitedly given here and elsewhere on these boards, seems to be inline with what I'm saying above. I'd need some hefty proof and evidence to make me agree otherwise. If resveratrol is causing tendinitis instead of joint pain (two completely different things!), then all these hypotheses as to how resveratrol could be doing it would have to be modified, or in the case of aromatase inhibitor associated pain, scrapped. The fact aromatase inhibitor associated pain is our strongest link also greatly implies tendons have nothing to do with any of this, unless corollary to what's going on primarily in the joints.

I am always open to correction.

I don't think I have had any problems at all with joint pain. However, for a period of a couple of years, starting around when I first ingested small amounts of resveratrol (24-48 mg per day) in a 50% product, I would get redness and pain in the heel regions of both feet during and after running and playing basketball. The problems were always directly proportional (in terms of amount and duration of pain) to the amount of strain and stress that went into an exercise session. It is conceivable that the problems were simply caused by too much strain and not enough rest for the tendons, and not at all linked to the resveratrol product. Old age could have been a factor. But in thirty years of running and playing hoops, I had never had Achilles tendon problems before the point in time when I started taking the resveratrol product.

Last June I reached a point where I had incremented up to taking 1.6 grams of resveratrol (99% powder) per day, and for the first time in 2 years I stopped getting anything more than a negligible amount of tenderness in my heels after playing basketball. Tenderness after running had already gone away, but at that point also I had usually been running a lot more slowly. I kept increasing resveratrol dosage until December, at which point I quit for a bit and also did some buccal delivery. With the much smaller intake of resveratrol, the Achilles tenderness was just starting to come back again after playing basketball, but stopped again after I began taking the Tween80 product (500 mg per day).

I wonder if it might help to start a new thread that gathers input from resveratrol users as far as pain experienced and trying to sort out what kind of pain it was and what amount/kind of resveratrol was involved?

[maxwatt]

Collecting information on joint or tendon pain is worthwhile. Many of the symptoms I have seen described are consistent with tendinitis

Pain with resveratrol (in the joint, near the joint, tendon, or muscle) four choices not mutually exclusive.
Type of resveratrol (pure, 98 or 99%) 50%, other mix or blend as Longevinex, Country life, various blends) 3 separate choices
Other supplements taken (Niacinamide, Quercetin, Pomegranate for example)
Onset (soon after taking resveratrol, weeks after, or months after)
Pain resolved on discontinuing resveratrol *yes, no, how long? days, weeks, months)
Pain resolved on taking (Vitamin D3, Niacinamide, exposure to sun, other)

Any other suggestions for a poll?

Edited by maxwatt, 20 February 2009 - 02:41 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Maxwatt,

how about... "No pain at all" as one of the answers?
Maybe it can provide a ratio of folks who have not experienced pain to those who have on the board. It would be interesting to see.

A

[geddarkstorm]

I don't think I have had any problems at all with joint pain. However, for a period of a couple of years, starting around when I first ingested small amounts of resveratrol (24-48 mg per day) in a 50% product, I would get redness and pain in the heel regions of both feet during and after running and playing basketball. The problems were always directly proportional (in terms of amount and duration of pain) to the amount of strain and stress that went into an exercise session. It is conceivable that the problems were simply caused by too much strain and not enough rest for the tendons, and not at all linked to the resveratrol product. Old age could have been a factor. But in thirty years of running and playing hoops, I had never had Achilles tendon problems before the point in time when I started taking the resveratrol product.

Last June I reached a point where I had incremented up to taking 1.6 grams of resveratrol (99% powder) per day, and for the first time in 2 years I stopped getting anything more than a negligible amount of tenderness in my heels after playing basketball. Tenderness after running had already gone away, but at that point also I had usually been running a lot more slowly. I kept increasing resveratrol dosage until December, at which point I quit for a bit and also did some buccal delivery. With the much smaller intake of resveratrol, the Achilles tenderness was just starting to come back again after playing basketball, but stopped again after I began taking the Tween80 product (500 mg per day).

I wonder if it might help to start a new thread that gathers input from resveratrol users as far as pain experienced and trying to sort out what kind of pain it was and what amount/kind of resveratrol was involved?

That's definitely tendinitis, no doubt. Not too surprising when mixed with exercise, but surprising that it correlates with resveratrol intake at all. I may have to stand corrected already, sorry Andre. One ancillary connection is that if the joints are inflamed, that seems to be a mechanism that can cause tendinitis when mixed with activity, as is seen occasionally with arthritis. It is very important we tease out these issues. Tendons are not joints, and vice versa, and the way for dealing with problems with either are quite different, unless the tendinitis is being caused solely by inflamed joints.

It is critical we figure this out, I feel, before we can truly say what's going on (could be different for different people), and thus find any antidote(s) - either in another supplement or methodology.

Collecting information on joint or tendon pain is worthwhile. Many of the symptoms I have seen described are consistent with tendinitis

Pain with resveratrol (in the joint, near the joint, tendon, or muscle) four choices not mutually exclusive.
Type of resveratrol (pure, 98 or 99%) 50%, other mix or blend as Longevinex, Country life, various blends) 3 separate choices
Other supplements taken (Niacinamide, Quercetin, Pomegranate for example)
Onset (soon after taking resveratrol, weeks after, or months after)
Pain resolved on discontinuing resveratrol *yes, no, how long? days, weeks, months)
Pain resolved on taking (Vitamin D3, Niacinamide, exposure to sun, other)

Any other suggestions for a poll?

Great idea, Maxwatt. Throw in Anthony's "no pain" choice and we have a potential survey. Perhaps something like this

-Age: *if desired*
-Amount of resveratrol taken:
-Brand and/or purity:
-Length of usage:
-Other supplements or medication taken at the time (approximate dosage):
-Physically activate (dedicated exercise time) during period of resveratrol usage: Yes/No
-Pain experienced with resveratrol: Yes/No
-If yes: in joints/near joints/in tendon/in muscles/other (please specify location for all choices; any and all may be picked)
-Pain alleviated by cutting back or ceasing resveratrol intake: Yes, by cutting back to ___ /Yes, stopped and pain ended
after ____days or weeks/No
-Pain alleviated after another supplement was taken: Yes/No
-If yes, what supplement and dosage:
-Pain alleviated through other means (i.e. reducing exercise, changed resveratrol delivery method/mixture, scaled back or stopped taking another supplement/med, sunlight exposure):

Edited by geddarkstorm, 20 February 2009 - 05:17 AM.

[maxwatt]

I believe niner has elucidated a major cause of "joint" pain with this post: Interaction with other drugs and/or supplements, involving CYP 3A4 and 2C9 mechanistic inhibition which can lead to myopathies manifested as tendinitis or joint pain.