17 replies to this topic

[ajnast4r]

2 important things worth noting at the start of this thread... the confirmed ergogenic benefit of BCAA supplementation during training, and the propencity of BCAA supplementation to induce depression


Scivation, the company the makes XTend (a popular BCAA supplement) recently completed a fairly well controlled study (but currently unpublished) study that showed intraworkout BCAA supplementation as superior to whey or gatoraid in terms of fat loss, muscle gain & strength gain in well trained human males.

http://www.strengtha...wordpress/?p=61

“The Xtend guys dropped their body fat % by 2%, gained 9 pounds of lean body weight (I call that muscle!), increased their bench press by about 15 pounds and squat by 25 pounds!

The Whey group dropped their percent body fat by 1%, gained 5 pounds of lean body weight, increased their bench press by about 5 pounds (7 pounds) and squat by about 10 pounds (11 pounds).

The Gatorade group dropped their percent body fat by less than 1%, gained 3 pounds of lean body weight, increased their bench press by almost 5 pounds (4 pounds) and squat by almost 10 pounds (8 pounds)

I started a thread on bodybuilding.com after personally experiencing, and being able to repeat, depression induced by BCAA supplementation. There was quite a bit of feedback agreeing that this is a rather common side effect.

its been fairly well documented BCAA supplementation decreases tryptophan and phenylalanine transport across the BBB, and decreases both serotonin synthesis and dopamine synthesis.

[woly]

I bought a bottle of Now's BCAA on whim a few months back because it seemed like the next big thing for weight lifting but since then ive found very little in terms of studies showing actual performance increases in normal doses (=<10g). It seems most of the favour for BCAA comes from the metabolic studies that have shown its potent stimulation of muscle building/fat burning. Im starting to think that good ol' whey is probably the way to go because in a scoop of whey you are getting around 6grams of BCAA. This study does look interesting but i hope more studies like this are produced from unbiased sources.

Also when i first started taking BCAA i noticed a significant mood alteration too. I started with about 5 grams BCAA in a single dose, I was very irritable and just in a sooky mood all day. Since then i have slowly reintroduced BCAA into my workout regimen and have found my mood to be fine. I take half a teaspoon just before a workout and another half afterwards.

EDIT: a thought just occured to me was that when i started splitting the dose in two i also mixed that with whey protein. perhaps the reason why i stopped feeling the mood altering symptoms was because of the other amino acids (tryptophan comes to mind, no pun intended) being ingested at the same time which blunted the possible imbalance.

Edited by woly, 03 February 2009 - 12:30 AM.

[ajnast4r]

This study does look interesting but i hope more studies like this are produced from unbiased sources.

that would be nice but its highly unlikely you will ever see any non-self interest studies for ergogenic aids... i actually know the owner of scivation, and he is NOT a schister.. he's a genuinely nice guy and his company is known for their honesty & their products efficacy. he's also a bodybuilder...

deading 405 x 15:

EDIT: a thought just occured to me was that when i started splitting the dose in two i also mixed that with whey protein. perhaps the reason why i stopped feeling the mood altering symptoms was because of the other amino acids (tryptophan comes to mind, no pun intended) being ingested at the same time which blunted the possible imbalance

i find the negative effects take quite a bit longer to kick in if i use a high bcaa whey (50%+) or whey spiked with leucine... but it still happens eventually.

[RighteousReason]

deading 405 x 15:

awesome.

[Shepard]

I'm skeptical of the Scivation study until I can read the full text. I'm also skeptical of BCAAs or EAAs vs. whey or milk in the context of a full diet. However, I still dose them quite high (20g EAA, 40-50g BCAAs) around training just in case they might help and have noticed no mood alterations.

[zoolander]

A company that sells BCAA's quoting a significant effect with their product found in an unpublished study?? I'll reserve myself for the study before I even read the full article on the above quoted blog.

[ajnast4r]

im going to contact the owner and see if i can get a hold of the study... but the purpose of this thread wasnt to focus on the scivation study, it was just to start a round table discussion. zoo/shep i know you both recommend and take BCAA, i find it unlikely you would do so without ample evidence...


the mood altering effects are strange... some people report no effect at high doses and some report ill effects at small doses. 8-10 grams is enough to ruin the day for me... i wonder if maybe it only has negative effects on people already prone towards depression?

[zorba990]

im going to contact the owner and see if i can get a hold of the study... but the purpose of this thread wasnt to focus on the scivation study, it was just to start a round table discussion. zoo/shep i know you both recommend and take BCAA, i find it unlikely you would do so without ample evidence...


the mood altering effects are strange... some people report no effect at high doses and some report ill effects at small doses. 8-10 grams is enough to ruin the day for me... i wonder if maybe it only has negative effects on people already prone towards depression?

I was under the impression that BCAAs were old hat. That to avoid problems with excessive
ammonia, the Keto forms should be used instead. Specifically, the Ketoisocaproate (KIC) form of
Leucine. Its not very easy to find these days but Beyond a Century carries it in pill form as
Arginine-KIC http://www.easycart....eouts.html#0009 . HMB is another
form of Leucine, but it is rather expensive due to an exclusive patent. I'm not sure if HMB is an ammonia
scavenger.

At this point would it be worth Imminst becoming a bulk supplement supplier? Finding reliable ones
that do their own contaminant testing is difficult. Bulk Nutrition used to be good but something has
happened recently. SHF is gone. sigh.

[woly]

Yes i would like to see some studies people that have convinced people to use BCAA too

[zoolander]

Yes. I have a handful of studies. I'll post these when I'm not on the road

[sentinel]

im going to contact the owner and see if i can get a hold of the study... but the purpose of this thread wasnt to focus on the scivation study, it was just to start a round table discussion. zoo/shep i know you both recommend and take BCAA, i find it unlikely you would do so without ample evidence...


the mood altering effects are strange... some people report no effect at high doses and some report ill effects at small doses. 8-10 grams is enough to ruin the day for me... i wonder if maybe it only has negative effects on people already prone towards depression?

That is what I was going to suggest; that certain people are pre-disposed to depression and that in turn fragments to those whose depression is bio-chemically driven or exacerbated by dopamine, serotonin, DHEA/Testosterone levels etc. The majority of BCAA users will either not have such a reaction or, to make matters even less clear cut, may have such effects negated by the psychological benefits of exercise and the improved returns they experience through BCAA use.

Christ that was a bad explanation, suffice to say "I concur".

[Shepard]

Yes i would like to see some studies people that have convinced people to use BCAA too

My reasoning:

Rational Mind: I see no reason why BCAAs and/or EAAs would be superior to whey plus a little extra leucine.

Competitive Athlete's Mind: Screw reason, that voodoo might work and be the difference between a win and second place.

Guess which one wins out 100% of the time.

[ajnast4r]

My reasoning:

Rational Mind: I see no reason why BCAAs and/or EAAs would be superior to whey plus a little extra leucine.

Competitive Athlete's Mind: Screw reason, that voodoo might work and be the difference between a win and second place.

Guess which one wins out 100% of the time.

man i got a good belly laugh out of that.. SO true.

i DID have excellent results using a leucine/whey based product call intrabolic... basically it was 7g of whey (80% hydrolysis) + 5g of leucine + 3.2g beta-alanine sipped through the workout. was the only product that even lived up to its hype... increased strength, increased endurance & increase in lbm. i quit using it because eventually it produced the same negative emotional effects that BCAA did, albeit quite a bit slower... and i'm still not convinced large amounts of beta-alanine are safe.

i believe the ergogenic effects of BCAA are related directly to the leucine... im unsure if BCAA would have benefit above stand-alone leucine?

[zorba990]

My reasoning:

Rational Mind: I see no reason why BCAAs and/or EAAs would be superior to whey plus a little extra leucine.

Competitive Athlete's Mind: Screw reason, that voodoo might work and be the difference between a win and second place.

Guess which one wins out 100% of the time.

man i got a good belly laugh out of that.. SO true.

i DID have excellent results using a leucine/whey based product call intrabolic... basically it was 7g of whey (80% hydrolysis) + 5g of leucine + 3.2g beta-alanine sipped through the workout. was the only product that even lived up to its hype... increased strength, increased endurance & increase in lbm. i quit using it because eventually it produced the same negative emotional effects that BCAA did, albeit quite a bit slower... and i'm still not convinced large amounts of beta-alanine are safe.

i believe the ergogenic effects of BCAA are related directly to the leucine... im unsure if BCAA would have benefit above stand-alone leucine?

Have you had your ammonia levels checked? How about an amino acid analysis done?

[ajnast4r]

Have you had your ammonia levels checked? How about an amino acid analysis done?

no, what would be the point?

[zorba990]

Have you had your ammonia levels checked? How about an amino acid analysis done?

no, what would be the point?

The point of ammonia testing would be to see if increased BCAA supplementation, for you, is causing elevated
ammonia levels (more common, I suspect). Levels that might be corrected/adjusted by concurrently taking ammonia
scavengers such as KIC, AKG, butyrate and/or probiotics.

The point of an AA analysis would be to check for some inborn error of metabolism (more rare) that
might be adjusted with individual AA supplementation.

Finding out why supplemental BCAAs are having this effect on you might prove valuable in avoiding
a more serious health issue down the road (kidney/liver problems, etc).

[RighteousReason]

Yes. I have a handful of studies. I'll post these when I'm not on the road

bump

[kurdishfella]

Is injecting BCAA directly into a muscle in the biceps better?