40 replies to this topic

[kikai93]

Ah, great. My blood pressure is 137/87.

No PEA today so I am wondering what the hell is going on. I took 15mg of adderall total today, and 5mg of deprenyl. I was very careful when starting them both and had no bp surge before even when I was on 20mg of deprenyl with 20mg of adderall.

I discontinued the cat's claw and fo-ti, and anyway MAO-B plus adderall shouldn't really cause hypertension. I did try some avena sativa today, 1.5g. Maybe that is the problem?

My new additions lately that I've taken today are celery seed, horse chestnut and avena sativa. I suppose they could be the problem, but I believed all these to be relatively inert/mild and I took only small doses of the celery and avena sativa. I also started on the guanfacine a few days ago and that's around when the BP spikes started, but it seems to make my BP go DOWN, not up - which is its supposed job. Could adderall + guanfacine have this reaction? Seems odd, as it's a somewhat common treatment to prescribe them together.

Could it be MAO-A hypertensive reaction? I know a lot of supplements are MAO-A inhibitors and adding them all up might be causing issues. I did eat some cheese tonight. Anyone know how long cheese reaction lasts? Last night it was basically all night long, and I did have cheese then, too. If anyone has any idea, let me know. I think it did seem to start right after I ate. All day long my bp has been around 115/75.

Could it be panic attacks? I don't feel super anxious, but panic attacks usually seem physical, not mental.

I hate to go to the doctor and usually they are not that useful if you aren't bleeding or in cardiac arrest, especially when it comes to supplement interactions. I guess I will have to stop everything and add it all back one at a time.... Up until now I have been doing well with everything, but this is very worrying.

Actually, I would think any physician could have told you your problem. The half-life of MAO-B inhibition in humans has been measured to be about 40 days. It's also cumulative. After a certain threshold of MAO-BI activity Deprenyl loses its selectivity and begins inhibiting MAO-A as well. Looking at the dosages you've been taking, you passed the threshold day 2. Now read the info that came with your Adderall. It shouldn't be taken with an MAOI drug at all , partially because of potentiation, but mostly because of the risk of seratonin syndrome, hyperpyrexia, and hypertensive crisis.

I am decidedly NOT a physician (ie this is not medical advice blahblahblah), but you may want to seek the advice of one in dealing with this problem. If it were me, I would definitely stop everything for a good long while, and take up the MAOI diet for the next month or two.

Once you get your system back to normal, you may want to scale back your Deprenyl to the 1mg/day - 5mg/every other day range and discontinue the Adderall, or continue the Adderall and discontinue the Deprenyl.

This isn't the "first post" I would have preferred, but what you're doing here is tantamount to suicide. If you continue to experience these symptoms, 911 is NOT overreacting. Tachycardia + Myoclonus and/or Confusion is a definite trip to the ER. I hope that helps, and that you get to feeling better soon.

[tomnook]

I second your note of caution kikai93.

From personal experience it took at least a month for my system to normalise after taking just 5mg on alternate days over a period of a month or so.

Check out this post if you haven't already : Cocoa supplements to avoid Phenylethylamine hit? Raw cocoa interacting with

All the best

[bgwithadd]

The binding is for 40 days on average, but your body contantly makes new MAO. You should be cleared completely in a month and ok to use other drugs in about two weeks time.

I have been trying to figure out what's going on, and I am no longer convinced that my problem had anything to do with PEA in the first place. It turns out the first attack was 24 hours after I took guanfacine for the first time, and I have tried eating cheese and drinking cola and neither one seems to be triggering any reaction at all, even though I thought that they were before.As it turns out all the problems happen consistently at the same time of day. I'm not sure if the first one was anything to do with PEA, but I have had crazy anxiety every night around the time I am supposed to take my guanfacine. Considering I have seen lots of people take a lot more PEA without bad effects, even while on deprenyl, I think it's possible it's just the guanfacine doing all this. There's some kind of weird rebound effect that it can have, and also it can cause too little circulation to the brain and anxiety at times.

I am not absolutely sure that's the case but I am pretty certain now that I am not getting the 'cheese effect'. If I were then it should still be in effect now because I had problems with it just a few days ago.

With an MAO-I like parnate, you have about 80% MAO-A inhibition at a high dose. Even so, not everyone gets the cheese effect even if they don't limit their diet. At 10mg or less you have virtually no MAO-A inhibition, but that doesn't mean that it immediately jumps up to 100% MAO-A ihibition after that. I couldn't find exact figures but I saw in other places it's really only when you go above 20mg a day you need to start to worry more. There's also a difference between MAO-I inhibition in the brain and in the gut. Inhibiting it in the gut is the main problem that leads to the cheese reaction. Inhibiting it in the brain is not the big issue on that front. That's why a lot of people have no problems with it even on drugs like parnate. I think there's probably a fair amount of wiggle room in there with deprenyl because for depression its suggested dose is 60mg a day. Ufortunately, there's no easy way to tell how much MAO-A or MAO-B you really have until you get a reaction.

As for stimulants, amphetamines don't directly release much dopamine and coke/ritalin don't release any whatsoever. The do act as reuptake inhibitors but at the relatively low doses I take it doesn't seem to have any effect on its action. It seems maybe it lasts a bit longer on deprenyl but I am not sure if that's the case, but it doesn't seem to hit harder and I don't get any boost in blood pressure. Deprenyl boosts dopamine by about 40%, by comparison I think wellbutrin doubles it and for meth it's 16 times as much.

The contraindication for MAOI or SSRIs with amphetamines comes from serotonin, though. Technically, they can raise serotonin levels, but in reality it's not something I'm terribly worried about because it's only at high doses that that should happen at all.

For now I am taking nothing, though, until I am sure I know what's happened.

[jim45]

Hi Readers.

I wanted to warn you all about mixing PEA and Selegiline (Deprenyl).

I started taking PEA and Selegiline with a very low dose of Effexor about 3 months ago. Soon afterward, I noticed problems with my BP and pulse, which I verified with an automatic tester.

Since I'd had such a dramatic and welcome alleviation of my long-term high dose Effexor (FXR) withdrawal syndrome(?) (dysphoria, anhedonia, amotivation, and deep depression) with the combo I decided to experiment in an attempt to find a safe dose/time regimen.

After about 2 months I thought I'd found it. Unfortunately, from time to time I still would have BP problems, and fluid retention problems. With Spring and associated warm weather coming soon hyperthermia is a concern too. PEA also interferes with the enzyme that breaks down histamine. That can be dangerous for people with asthma or bad allergies. I had my first asthma attack EVER a few days after beginning FXR/PEA/Selegiline regimen. Knew what was happening, but at that time I just didn't know why.

Unless there's nothing else that works, I recommend that people avoid the combo. Food intake, fluid intake, and possibly several other factors impact how a given dose/time will effect you.

People who insist on using it might want to consider ordering some Clonodine (Catapress) to take in the event of a hypertensive crisis, and also supplement their use with low doses of Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) to counteract the histamine excess.

PLEASE avoid the stuff if possible, but be very self-aware (feelings of a strong pulse, headache, or heat stroke symptoms) and careful if you do use it.

Best wishes to all

Jim

[Cuil]

Well, I guess this thread didn't teach me a lesson one bit. I ended up taking way too much pea with deprenyl and had an adrenic storm.

http://en.wikipedia....drenergic_storm

I went back to smoking cigarettes recently after 3 months of abstenince, and I didn't account for that when I would dose. Yesterday, I took a pill of 250 mg pea with 15 mg of deprenyl and I was fine until I smoked a cigarette. Then, worst headache I have ever had in my life. Thank god I had piracetam in my system, or I would probably be retarded after these past few days.
So once again this morning, I had to get up early so I drank some green tea with this same combo and it got me good! I had the worst headache in my whole life and as a result, I took some clonodine that my friend gave me a while back to counter the side effects. I am still a little edgy, but I took a strong dose of theanine to relax me. I need to relax, I have speech class in 27 minutes.

Edited by Cuil, 29 October 2009 - 05:52 PM.

[The Likud Is Behind It]

I'm doing 2 drops of Deprenyl a day. I bought some PEA due to this thread. I don't know how much I'm taking, but it's less than 1/3 of a teaspoon of the powder. Let me tell you, this stuff destroyed my depression. I just feel good. This seems to be such a miraculous combination, I'm a little scared it's too good to be true. I used to drink too much, and I feel a little left out when people are drinking and I'm not. From here on, I'm going to take a very small dose of PEA before I go out socializing or any time I need some energy and feel good vibe. I don't want to take it every day. But seriously, this combination is almost too good to be true. I can't believe it.

Edit: I also tried Chocamine with the Deprenyl on the theory that the chocolate extract would have some PEA or other molecules that would be boosted by the Deprenyl. The Chocamine didn't do anything. I don't think Chocamine has PEA in it.

Edited by bmud, 12 December 2009 - 03:20 AM.

[unregistered_user]

Is it possible to utilize this combination safely and effectively or do all roads lead to trouble here?

[zodiac]

Is it possible to utilize this combination safely and effectively or do all roads lead to trouble here?

Yes, it's quite possible. You just have to let no other confounding factors get in the way.

For instance, even among his otherwise grounded ideas in this thread, the OP reported stuff like:

"No PEA today so I am wondering what the hell is going on. I took 15mg of adderall total today, and 5mg of deprenyl. I was very careful when starting them both and had no bp surge before even when I was on 20mg of deprenyl with 20mg of adderall. I discontinued the cat's claw and fo-ti, and anyway MAO-B plus adderall shouldn't really cause hypertension. I did try some avena sativa today, 1.5g. Maybe that is the problem?"

...Which basically just reeks of horrible errors in methodology, approach and theory (i.e. first of all, even the most unlikely additions, but especially potent herbs like Fo-Ti will GREATLY potentiate the MAO-B inhibition of deprenyl; and secondly, the "40 days" effect of deprenyl is definitely to be considered when finding the right daily dose for you, ESPECIALLY with regards to the controversial combination of adderal+deprenyl or the more-encouraged-but-equally-risky depression-busting phenethylamine combo of PEA+deprenyl -- as it will most definitely build up over a LONG period of time before things sorta 'settle in place'). Contrary to the OP's thoughts, DLPA and deprenyl actually provide a far safer and more stable supply of PEA in the brain because they are actually fueling the natural stores, rather than just taking exogenous PEA to bind to the receptors. The two are vastly different approaches, and while the OP was correct that the DLPA does bring with it the naggy side-effects related to also increasing DA/NE output, this might actually be a safer combo for people to consider.

However, there are better things for depression. Hell, even something like guanfacine 1mg + memantine 10mg [anecdotally synergistic due to balancing PFC glutamate + dopaminergic tone while abolishing excessive DA release from NMDA antagonism], or something equally well-rounded might solve the typical "atypical" as well as any of these more risky/dangerous combos. ^ But of course, just as with any ideas in the realm of quality-of-life improvement via psychopharmacology, you've gotta measure 10x before you cut, and take everything with a huge grain of salt.

Deprenyl is a miracle in its own way, but it must be regarded with way more caution with regards to its long-lasting duration than most people, even the very well-read ones, will ever readily attribute. The same goes for PEA, a hundred-fold more when combined with deprenyl. So, all in all, the answer is "yes, it's possible" -- but you have to be willing to go over 9000 when it comes to caution, and also exercise perfect precision and judgment insofar as euphoria and whether it's ACTUALLY helping you in any way or just causing elation... if you ever hope to be able to reap any of their possible benefits.

Nuff said.

Edited by zodiac, 22 February 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[kybernetes]

Contrary to the OP's thoughts, DLPA and deprenyl actually provide a far safer and more stable supply of PEA in the brain because they are actually fueling the natural stores, rather than just taking exogenous PEA to bind to the receptors. The two are vastly different approaches, and while the OP was correct that the DLPA does bring with it the naggy side-effects related to also increasing DA/NE output, this might actually be a safer combo for people to consider.

Wouldn't D-Phenylalanine with deprenyl be better than either DLPA or LPA since the L isomer will be mostly used for Tyrosine synthesis first while DPA will mostly be used to directly produce PEA?

[leftside]

Contrary to the OP's thoughts, DLPA and deprenyl actually provide a far safer and more stable supply of PEA in the brain because they are actually fueling the natural stores, rather than just taking exogenous PEA to bind to the receptors. The two are vastly different approaches, and while the OP was correct that the DLPA does bring with it the naggy side-effects related to also increasing DA/NE output, this might actually be a safer combo for people to consider.

Wouldn't D-Phenylalanine with deprenyl be better than either DLPA or LPA since the L isomer will be mostly used for Tyrosine synthesis first while DPA will mostly be used to directly produce PEA?

Yes. I also read that somewhere else (but can't remember where). In fact I ordered some DPA from iHerb.com 2 nights ago for exactly these reasons.

BTW - Deprenyl + PEA is an awesome combo - but only to be taken recreationally! This is not a long term solution, and I only take it 1-2 times a month when I feel like having some "fun" whilst at work.

[Justchill]

Can you actually do 10mg deprenyl + some pea or do you have to take the deprenyl during weeks for the recreational effect?