2208 replies to this topic

[chrono]

I'm wondering if it's worth it for me to try IV injections? I've got a belt and a good abandoned property to use.

I was just thinking this discussion was lacking in tittering, hackneyed needle humor. I'm glad you waited to make such a joke in response to someone who was here to share their clinical experience with us. Really encourages such people to take us seriously.

Congrats on making one of the most short-sighted, ill-placed and lame posts I've seen on this forum.

[tepol]

I was recommended to try Cerebrolysin by one of my friends. Apparently its effects on healthy individuals are really noticeable. It is generally well tolerated nootropic. Medical research documents on Cerebrolysin look very impressive. Luckily I can get it for a relatively cheap price, so I guess I will try it next month. The only disadvantage is the administration method. It has to be injected. However, intramuscular injections can be used for doses up to 5 ml (it's enough for healthy individuals). We all know that intramuscular injections are very simple...


Cerebrolysin®

A company called Ebewe in the Germanic country of Austria has developed and gained approval for their injectable product called Cerebrolysin® (CRB).

What makes CRB interesting is that it is specifically aimed at delaying the progression of AD; this is unusual in-itself because the current approved medications, (donepezil and memantine) are merely targeted at improving the symptoms and some of the disease outcomes.

CRB is also different because it can be considered to be the first natural approach to AD. CRB is peptide based, being very careful obtained by standardised enzymatic processes from purified brain proteins and aminoacids (of porcine origin).

CRB is designed to help support the function of neurons. This type of approach is known as neurotrophic and CRB being a neurotrophic factor appears to help support and maintain a number of neurons including those of serotonin, choline (related to Ach) and noradrenaline origin.

Action

What this means, is that CRB appears to be able to except a growth like factor on neurons, particularly those from the dorsal root ganglia. Plus, CRB appears to affect synaptic responses in the hippocampus, the region of the brain believed responsible for the deposit of memories. In other words, Cerebrolysin® helps to maintain and support these vital repair processes in the brain.

In addition, Cerebrolysin® has been shown to decrease amyloid-beta production in the brain. These are the so-called Alzheimer plagues that are seen in the post mortem examinations of AD autopsies. As these plagues are strongly correlated with the damage of AD, their control or reduction may be viewed as a highly significant benefit.

Furthermore, there is even some evidence that CRB can decrease the rate of apoptosis (the rate of cell death), a factor that could be linked to the slowing of the progression of the disease.

Clinical trials

Now that 80 trials have been completed on more than 5000 patients with AD, CRB can be considered to be well tested.

The studies highlight that those patients suffering from mild to moderate AD, that when treated with I.M. or I.V. infusions of CRB each day for 5 days a week, over a period of 4 weeks, that there was a significant improvement in cognitive measurements, even after just the first 4 initial weeks. What's more, Dr. E. Ruether, one of the doctors involved in the trials, noted that these improvements remained stable for up to 6-months- even after cessation of the therapy.

In more human terms this means that there are improvements in the activities of daily living, with the patients being able to do more by themselves, with far less assistance etc. Furthermore, when compared to the placebo patients in the trials, the CRB treated patients retained their improved cognitive measurements, even at month 7, whereas the placebo patients had clearly deteriorated during this same period.

Safety

To date, no known toxicity or safety concerns have been reported. Side effects during treatment have been rare and generally limited to dizziness, headache and heat sensations, although it is possible that these effects are related to the injection or I.V. being given "too quickly."

Potential contraindications appear to be limited to individual hypersensitivity, severe renal conditions and epilepsy.

Dosage

The normal dose pattern appears to be a 5 ml ampoule injected, (intramuscularly or intravenously) each day for 5-days (e.g. Monday-Friday) and repeated for a period of 4-weeks. Then after a 2-month period free from treatment the program is cycled again as necessary. Therefore, four packages each containing 5x 5ml ampoules are normally enough for 3-months at a time.

Summary

CRB is a unique departure for approved drugs for AD for the following reasons:
1. Firstly it is aimed at the prevention/ slowing the progression of the disease rather than alleviation of specific symptoms.
2. Secondly it does not merely improve Ach levels, but rather enhances overall neuronal condition.
3. Thirdly, it can be considered to be a more natural approach, because rather than the current drugs, it is formed from natural brain proteins.
4. It has far fewer side effects and contraindications than the existing therapies.
Overall, CRB has been shown to help modify the course of AD and delay its progression leading to a stabilising effect on AD patients.
All of this appears to have been achieved with very few side effects and contraindications which makes CRB a welcome addition to the armoury in the fight against the plague that is Alzheimer's disease.


References

1. Rockenstein E, Torrance M, Mante M, Adame A, Paulino A, Rose JB, Crews L, Moessler H, Masliah E "Cerebrolysin decreases amyloid-beta production by regulating amyloid precursor maturation in a transgenic model of Alzheimer's disease" J. Neurosci. Res. (2006) May 15;83 (7) 1252-61
2. Masliah E, Armasolo F, Veinbergs I, et al., "Cerebrolysin ameliorates performance deficits and neuronal damage in apolipoprotein E deficient mice." Pharmacol. Biochem. Behav. (1999), 62 (2): 00 239-245
3. Jonhagen ME, "Nerve growth factor treatment in dementia" Alzheimer disease and associated disorders (2000), 14: S31-38
4. Ruether E, Ritter R, Apecehea M, et al. "Efficacy of the peptide nootropic drug Cerebrolysin in patients with senile dementia of the Alzheimer type," Pharmacopsychiatry (1994), 27 (1), pp 32-40
5. Xiao S, Yan H, Yao P, "Efficacy of Cerebrolysin in patients with Alzheimer's disease" Clin. Drug Invest (2000), 19 (1): pp 43-53
6. Ruether E, Ritter R, Apecehea M, et al. "Sustained improvement in patients with dementia of Alzheimer's type 6-months after cessation of Cerebrolysin therapy" J. Neural. Trans. (2000), 107 pp 815-829
7. Bae CY, Cho CY, Cho K, et al. "A double blind, placebo controlled, multicenter study of Cerebrolysin for Alzheimer's disease" J. Am. Ger. Soc. (2000), 48 pp 1566-1571
8. Alvarez X, Moessler H, "Efficacy of Cerebrolysin in moderate to moderately severely Alzheimer's disease" In. Vellas B (ed), research and practice in Alzheimer's disease, Serdi, Paris (2001), pp 179-186
9. Ruether E, Husmann R, Kinzler E, et al, "A 28 week, double blind, placebo controlled study with Cerebrolysin in patients with mild to moderate Alzheimer's disease" Int. Clin. Psycopharm. (2001), 16 pp 253-263
10. Panisset M, Gauthier S, Moessler H, et al. "Cerebrolysin in Alzheimer's disease; a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled trial with a neurotrophic agent" J. Neural. Transm. (2002)
11. Rainer M, Brunnbauer M, Dunky A, et al. "Therapuetic results with Cerebrolysin in the treatment of dementia" Wiener Medizinische Wochenschrift (1997), 147 pp 426-431.
12. Alvvarez XA, Cacabelos R, Laredo M, Couceiro V, Sampedro C, Varela M, Corzo L, Fernandex-Nopvoa L, Vargas M, Aleixandre M, Linarges C, Granizo E, Muresanu D, Moessler H, "A double blind, placebo controlled study of three dosages of Cerebrolysin in patients with mild to moderate Alzheimer's disease" Eue. J. Neurol. 2006 Jan 1;13 (1) 43-54

Yes, but how do you order a drug like that in injectable form , unless you have script or have the right credentials ?

I dont see how this viable , so excuse my ignorance , while i read the rest of this thread.

[tepol]

Hi there!

I noticed a lot of things you guys already said when I tried cerebrolysin. One of the most notorious changes that nobody has talked about was an increased sense of smell. By the 5th day I percieved very strongly the scent of the medication itself. Has anyone experienced that? Also, the days I had none "mental workout" I felt like my head was going to explode in a hyperactive state.

Now you've got my attention , has any one else noticed this ??

[arvcondor]

I'm wondering if it's worth it for me to try IV injections? I've got a belt and a good abandoned property to use.

I was just thinking this discussion was lacking in tittering, hackneyed needle humor. I'm glad you waited to make such a joke in response to someone who was here to share their clinical experience with us. Really encourages such people to take us seriously.

Congrats on making one of the most short-sighted, ill-placed and lame posts I've seen on this forum.

Yes, when speaking about injecting ourselves with pig-brain extracts obtained from obscure pharmacies overseas, we should remain as solemn as possible.

Excuse me for infusing some levity into the discussion. I forget how humorless people are on the internet sometimes.

[Mindweaver]

Is this substance available in the US? Are there any long-term adverse effects? Would this be recommended for a teenager with substance abuse brain damage?

[chrono]

Yes, when speaking about injecting ourselves with pig-brain extracts obtained from obscure pharmacies overseas, we should remain as solemn as possible.

Excuse me for infusing some levity into the discussion. I forget how humorless people are on the internet sometimes.

My concern about the tone of this conversation is in the best interest of being able to continue and improve this conversation. I have a sense of humor that would make your head spin. I also have the grace to recognize when a useless comment I've made does nothing but detract from the possibilities of a discussion.

Is this substance available in the US? Are there any long-term adverse effects? Would this be recommended for a teenager with substance abuse brain damage?

No, frankly, this isn't recommended for you. One of the most serious substances discussed here, and one which should not be attempted by someone who can't put in a few hours of reading to answer such questions for themselves. Sorry to be blunt, but this isn't like piracetam and choline. Other neurogenic substances like lion's mane and ashwagandha probably have as much chance of doing something for you, and are much safer/cheaper/easier to get.

Edited by chrono, 29 June 2010 - 05:58 AM.

[Hypothermic]

Yes, when speaking about injecting ourselves with pig-brain extracts obtained from obscure pharmacies overseas, we should remain as solemn as possible.

Excuse me for infusing some levity into the discussion. I forget how humorless people are on the internet sometimes.

My concern about the tone of this conversation is in the best interest of being able to continue and improve this conversation. I have a sense of humor that would make your head spin. I also have the grace to recognize when a useless comment I've made does nothing but detract from the possibilities of a discussion.

Is this substance available in the US? Are there any long-term adverse effects? Would this be recommended for a teenager with substance abuse brain damage?

No, frankly, this isn't recommended for you. One of the most serious substances discussed here, and one which should not be attempted by someone who can't put in a few hours of reading to answer such questions for themselves. Sorry to be blunt, but this isn't like piracetam and choline. Other neurogenic substances like lion's mane and ashwagandha probably have as much chance of doing something for you, and are much safer/cheaper/easier to get.

Do you take Cerebrolysin yourself?

You appear to always be so authoritative on the seriousness of the substance. Sure it one of the more powerful and sophisticated nootropics, but it has been used for many decades so far without any apparent life-threatening affects throughout the world. It is a very safe and effective compound used for things such as helping students study better, victims of brain damage and people who suffer from Alzheimer and Dementia. Any risk from it should be comfortably managed and accepted. In the event of negative side-effects, they are minor and not life threatening. The most common events were vertigo, agitation, and feeling hot, all of which were mild and short-lived.

Cerebrolysin is a safe, effective therapy that can be used for nearly any problem involving the brain

[chrono]

Do you take Cerebrolysin yourself?

Sure it one of the more powerful and sophisticated nootropics, but it has been used for many decades so far without any apparent life-threatening affects throughout the world. It is a very safe and effective compound used for things such as helping students study better, victims of brain damage and people who suffer from Alzheimer and Dementia. Any risk from it should be comfortably managed and accepted. In the event of negative side-effects, they are minor and not life threatening. The most common events were vertigo, agitation, and feeling hot, all of which were mild and short-lived.

I'm well aware of the safety profile and therapeutic potential of this drug, and never implied anything about its safety. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say; it seems to be that, for a substance to be considered 'serious,' it must have life-threatening consequences.

But of the 200+ articles on pubmed, only a couple are about usage in healthy people. The vast majority study outcomes of serious neurological problems. Your implication that significantly altering neurotrophic systems in healthy younger subjects has no possibility for side effects other than those you've listed is not founded in the literature. One reason this is a "serious" substance is precisely that it's capable of having such a profound effect on physiology and (sometimes) psychology, through largely unstudied or unknown mechanisms, and is not widely tested for the demographic or purpose being suggested in this thread. In other words, experimental.

The other reason (and honestly, the one that impels me to seem so serious about it) is that injection is the required ROA. It should be obvious that improper injection technique has potential to cause some serious problems. That alone puts it in another class than almost everything else we discuss here, and renders your unqualified endorsement somewhat problematic.

Whether or not I take this myself is irrelevant to what we're discussing here. I don't, because I have nothing like the money for it right now. As I've said several times in this thread, I would very much like to. But I have the ability to make an informed decision based on intensive research into the drug's mechanisms and its possible effects on a variety of systems, and technique of administration. The person I was responding to is having trouble figuring out how to take things like piracetam, choline and ashwagandha without starting multiple repetitive threads. Other, more conventional substances are available which don't need to be injected. Do the math.

You appear to always be so authoritative on the seriousness of the substance.
...
Cerebrolysin is a safe, effective therapy that can be used for nearly any problem involving the brain

Sorry my opinion about the seriousness of this substance bothers you, and seems somehow to try to be "authoritative." It's a judgement (and a vague assertion) based on a close review of the available literature, and all the experience reports I could find. It's merely meant as a counterpoint to statements like yours, to let people know that there are other factors to be considered beyond the apparent benefits.

I'll point out that the statement I just quoted attempts to be far more authoritative and comprehensive than anything I've said, and is much more inaccurate.

Edited by chrono, 29 June 2010 - 11:59 AM.

[tepol]

Yes, when speaking about injecting ourselves with pig-brain extracts obtained from obscure pharmacies overseas, we should remain as solemn as possible.

Excuse me for infusing some levity into the discussion. I forget how humorless people are on the internet sometimes.

My concern about the tone of this conversation is in the best interest of being able to continue and improve this conversation. I have a sense of humor that would make your head spin. I also have the grace to recognize when a useless comment I've made does nothing but detract from the possibilities of a discussion.

Is this substance available in the US? Are there any long-term adverse effects? Would this be recommended for a teenager with substance abuse brain damage?

No, frankly, this isn't recommended for you. One of the most serious substances discussed here, and one which should not be attempted by someone who can't put in a few hours of reading to answer such questions for themselves. Sorry to be blunt, but this isn't like piracetam and choline. Other neurogenic substances like lion's mane and ashwagandha probably have as much chance of doing something for you, and are much safer/cheaper/easier to get.

Do you take Cerebrolysin yourself?

You appear to always be so authoritative on the seriousness of the substance. Sure it one of the more powerful and sophisticated nootropics, but it has been used for many decades so far without any apparent life-threatening affects throughout the world. It is a very safe and effective compound used for things such as helping students study better, victims of brain damage and people who suffer from Alzheimer and Dementia. Any risk from it should be comfortably managed and accepted. In the event of negative side-effects, they are minor and not life threatening. The most common events were vertigo, agitation, and feeling hot, all of which were mild and short-lived.

Cerebrolysin is a safe, effective therapy that can be used for nearly any problem involving the brain

Just because something isnt life threatening doesnt mean its safe.

[Mindweaver]

Chrono, I really have appreciated your input on my inquiries in the past few weeks when it comes to supplements/nootropics, but don't make this about me making multiple threads. If you truly think that there is a correlation between my responsibility as a forum-poster and my responsibility as a researcher/user of these substances, then you're a little trapped in your internet-based world and hold the power of responsibility on a forum a bit too high. Before experimenting with anything, I do vast amounts of research, and when I found this forum I realized that the substances I was asking questions about were a lot less researched than things that I've tried (mushrooms, marijuana, etc.), yet you and other members were still able to provide great information on studies done and whatnot.

My eyes are untrained for reading through and understanding entirely these studies and research inquiries, and my methods of research are untrained for finding the correct types of studies to even read through. However, I know that by posting several times on this forum, people like you will be able to filter out all the crap and give me a good answer from things your trained eyes HAVE researched. Now stop treating me like I'm an idiot because I repeatedly (out of excitement that my psychological issue that I've suffered for over a year and a half may have potential remedies) asked similar questions in two to three threads. Am I ever going to take something IV on my own? No.

Edited by Mindweaver, 29 June 2010 - 02:52 PM.

[betsyg]

Nice to see you again, Betsy! I've been thinking about your previous posts, and had a few questions for you:

1. Why do you use a hartman infusion of 250mL for only a 5mL dose of CBR?

2. Do you ever vary the dosage based on severity of symptoms, and have you noticed any additional benefits or other effects at different dosages?

2. Do you always follow the 5x/week for 4 weeks dosing schedule, regardless of severity? I'm wondering why Ebewe recommended this in their original literature; in my review of CBR papers, I've yet to find any reasoning for this. I'm wondering if it's to prevent downregulation of neurotrophic or other mechanisms, or perhaps prevent side effects. Do you have any thoughts about this?

Thanks again for your insight, and contribution to this discussion.

Hello again and thanks for the welcome. Don´t worry about the belt and abandond property remark...I didn´t get it anyway.

Just to remind you, I am not a doctor and I have never used Cerebrolysin. I have a personal interest in this subject because my step-mother suffers from dementia. I have also developed close personal relationships with some of our patents recieving their treatment and have a personal interest in their progress.

My Husband is a Doctor and I work with him in his small, private practice. I learn a lot from him and I do have clinical experience to share. I have learned a lot from talking to the pharmaceutical reps and the literature they bring in.
My husband and I will be attending a series of 4 seminars on Cerebrolysin next month. The speakers will be Doctors from Europe who have a lot more experience with this treatment that we have in our office. Cerebrolysin has only been available in Mexico since 2007, so we are very excited to be invited. From what I have been told, there will only be about 20 doctors at this meeting.

To answer your questions:

1) We use 10ml of CBR in 250ml of Hartman. I must have made an error somewhere, If I could find that post I would change it.

2) We have only varied the 5x4 protocol with one patient, but not because of the severety of his condition. He had an unpleasant reaction. The reaction involved tremors and nausea which were treated quickly and successfully. when we resumed his treatment he reacted again. He did not want to give up so His protocol was changed to every other day for 20 treatments. He is now tolerating it well and making good progress. This patient suffers from Lou Gherigs disease, not dementia.
we would not increase the dosage or vary the protocol based on severety. I can not answer your ¨why¨ question, but I have made note of it and will bring it up at the seminar.

I hope I will have some more useful information next month, after the seminar. I think I will start a new thread to recieve questions that people may want to be presented to the real experts on this subjet.

[chrono]

Thanks, betsy! I'll see if I can think up any more questions for you.

You mentioned 5mL way back in this thread somewhere, I saw it yesterday. But I still wonder at the 10mL dosage. I guess my question is: why do you use such a comparatively large amount (250mL) for dilution, instead of injecting it into the butterfly stick directly? Is this simply standard procedure for your injections, or do you think cerebrolysin is apt to have negative effects at higher concentrations?

@mindweaver: You may have misunderstood my reasoning. The nature of this substance and the fact it must be injected means that research ability is pretty relevant. The questions you were asking before (and asked in this thread) are not indicative of someone who is willing to do very much research. I absolutely realize this can be an incorrect impression, but what else do I have to go on? Your questions about availability and applicability to your case sounded like you were considering this yourself. I'm not trying to treat you like an idiot, and I'm sorry if my answer hurt your feelings.

[Mindweaver]

lol, it's the internet, you didn't hurt my feelings, thanks for the apology though.

[betsyg]

Thanks, betsy! I'll see if I can think up any more questions for you.

You mentioned 5mL way back in this thread somewhere, I saw it yesterday. But I still wonder at the 10mL dosage. I guess my question is: why do you use such a comparatively large amount (250mL) for dilution, instead of injecting it into the butterfly stick directly? Is this simply standard procedure for your injections, or do you think cerebrolysin is apt to have negative effects at higher concentrations?

@mindweaver: You may have misunderstood my reasoning. The nature of this substance and the fact it must be injected means that research ability is pretty relevant. The questions you were asking before (and asked in this thread) are not indicative of someone who is willing to do very much research. I absolutely realize this can be an incorrect impression, but what else do I have to go on? Your questions about availability and applicability to your case sounded like you were considering this yourself. I'm not trying to treat you like an idiot, and I'm sorry if my answer hurt your feelings.

We used to only be able to get 5ml vials so maybe that is what I was thinkingabout when i was writing, but we have always used 10ml in the solution because that is what the I.V. protocol dictates. Also, it is VERY important to give I.V. infusions of CBR slowly in order to avoid side effects such as tremors , nausea and headaches. It is NEVER injected directly into the vein without being diluted, there would definately be unpleasant side effects.


The protocol question is a good one. I hope others follow suit with some good questions. I want to make the most of this rare oportunity that we have been given.
I started a new topic where people can post their cuestions for us to ask at the symposium. It is titled ¨Do you have questions about cerebrolysin¨. I think it would be easier to keep track of them if they were all in one place.

[betsyg]

Is this substance available in the US? Are there any long-term adverse effects? Would this be recommended for a teenager with substance abuse brain damage?

CBR is not FDA approved in the U.S. and it is not sold there, but it is not ileagle to use. I was told by the rep we buy it from that it is NOT available without a prescription, but there seem to be people buying it without one.

There is a clinic in the U.S, giving CBR treatments. It is called THE COLE CENTER FOR HEALING and they have a website. It is in Ohio or something like that. I called several times and wrote to them asking about fees and some ¨specialized testing¨ that was mentioned and got no reply. I wanted to know because my stepmother suffers from dementia and my Dad, intimidated by foreign travel, would not come to Mexico. Anyway, I never heard anything from them.

Doctors in the U.S. tell me that they are not allowed by their insurance companies to use non-Fda approved treatments.

Substance abuse brain damage...We have no experience with that yet but hope to be learning about it next month. There is just not enough information in that question to give an answer, but I will definately try to find out. More details would be helpful.

[cere]

Hello,


I have been reading this thread for a while now. I live in Latvia where Cerebrolysin is very cheap.


If anyone is interested I could help you to get a pack of it for 55 dollars. Shipping usually costs 5 dollars and is free for orders over 100 dollars.

[Hypothermic]

Hello,


I have been reading this thread for a while now. I live in Latvia where Cerebrolysin is very cheap.


If anyone is interested I could help you to get a pack of it for 55 dollars. Shipping usually costs 5 dollars and is free for orders over 100 dollars.

What are the package sizes/doses available? Are you able to obtain any other medications?

[betsyg]

What is the brand name of the CERE that you purchace?

BTW............ CERE is the abreviation that EverPharm uses in all of the Spanish literature . I noticed that it is being abreviateted as CBR a lot in this forum.......Just a little trivia, thats all.

Latvia is in Europe, no?

Hello,


I have been reading this thread for a while now. I live in Latvia where Cerebrolysin is very cheap.


If anyone is interested I could help you to get a pack of it for 55 dollars. Shipping usually costs 5 dollars and is free for orders over 100 dollars.

What are the package sizes/doses available? Are you able to obtain any other medications?

Edited by betsyg, 02 July 2010 - 02:17 PM.

[NootropicEU]

Latvia is in EU, the same as Lithuania

Edited by deretlif, 02 July 2010 - 03:40 PM.

[cere]

What is the brand name of the CERE that you purchace?

BTW............ CERE is the abreviation that EverPharm uses in all of the Spanish literature . I noticed that it is being abreviateted as CBR a lot in this forum.......Just a little trivia, thats all.

Latvia is in Europe, no?

Hello,


I have been reading this thread for a while now. I live in Latvia where Cerebrolysin is very cheap.


If anyone is interested I could help you to get a pack of it for 55 dollars. Shipping usually costs 5 dollars and is free for orders over 100 dollars.

What are the package sizes/doses available? Are you able to obtain any other medications?

It comes in 5 ml ampoules. 5 ampoules per pack. Manufactured by Ebewe Pharma, Austria.

[flatline]

Anyone here able to use a 10ml ampule for two 5ml doses on different days? It seems pretty unsafe in terms how how sterile you can keep it. Getting an infection is more than anyone here bargained for.

[flatline]

On second thought, it may be possible to put some cellophane over the half-empty ampule. It's definitely not sterile though.

[betsyg]

Draw the rest into another syringe and cap it. It will be fine this way

[chrono]

It should be possible if you have meticulous sterilization technique, and quickly put it in another sealed/sterile vial, or syringe as Betsy suggested. If such a brief exposure to the air creates a substantial risk of infection, then injections probably wouldn't be safe in any circumstance.

I couldn't find any mention of preservatives in the Ebewe patents. Betsy, do you happen to know what's in there? It may be in the product literature. If not, it might be another one you could find out for us

[Animal]

It should be possible if you have meticulous sterilization technique, and quickly put it in another sealed/sterile vial, or syringe as Betsy suggested. If such a brief exposure to the air creates a substantial risk of infection, then injections probably wouldn't be safe in any circumstance.

It's more that the Cerebrolysin will be exposed to the air and then left (in a vial or syringe) to potentially develop a pathogenic capable population of bacteria. There is a reason why most syringes are used only once. You have to consider that compared to some chemical in a bottle, the peptides in Cerebrolysin have far more potential to harbour disease.

[chrono]

If it turns out there's nothing in the mixture to inhibit such growth, it could be a problem. I'd be surprised if there isn't, but it's possible.

Can you explain what it is about peptides that would make this more dangerous? If bacteria gets into fluid after being exposed to air for 10 seconds, and is allowed to grow for a day without inhibition, I'm having a hard time seeing why the presence of peptides would make it more dangerous than the same bacteria in any other fluid.

[trevyn]

Can you explain what it is about peptides that would make this more dangerous? If bacteria gets into fluid after being exposed to air for 10 seconds, and is allowed to grow for a day without inhibition, I'm having a hard time seeing why the presence of peptides would make it more dangerous than the same bacteria in any other fluid.

Most bacteria are capable of taking up peptides and converting them to sugars for energy and using that to grow. e.g. http://jb.asm.org/cg.../122/3/1200.pdf

Also, my microbiologist friend says "you can give yourself septicemia really easily" by trying to split ampoules in this way.

Edited by trevyn, 09 July 2010 - 11:51 PM.

[chrono]

Trevyn! Nice to see you! Been about 6 months; do you have an update for us concerning your own experiences and impressions?

Thanks for that explanation, it's good to know. Though how correct am I in thinking that the presence of a preservative/antibacterial/etc. in CL would make this a relative non-issue? Does the risk of septicemia your friend mentions stem from this bacteria-peptide relationship, or more general sterility concerns?

What implications does this have for the usage of non-ampouled peptides? In the new selank thread, we've discussed some of the practicalities of storing and using lyophilized peptides (though primarily for intranasal admin). Storing peptides in non-sterile conditions is a fairly common lab practice, I believe. Do you (or your friend) think that bacterial infection is of great concern in this situation? Would the addition of a preservative upon mixing for administration make this a non-issue as well?

I'm still having some trouble squaring the perceived danger of this practice—not that I would suggest it's a good idea, if there's any real chance of significant problems. But other populations (bodybuilders, recreational drug users) inject many things (some of them peptides) which do not have the relative luxury of being delivered in individually-amped doses—and they're not constantly giving themselves septicemia/etc. Again, just thinking aloud for the sake of discussion and clarification.

[trevyn]

I think the primary issue is that you don't want any bacteria sitting in a good growth environment for a significant amount of time before injection. Your immune system can handle a few stray bacteria that you introduce just before injection, but you don't want to let them sit in a growth media that you're later going to inject.

- Lyophilized peptide under vacuum is not a good growth environment.
- Reconstituted peptide in bacteriostatic water (or water with methylparaben -- which is also an antifungal) is not a good growth environment.
- A peptide solution with no preservative is potentially a good growth environment.

We don't know what kind of preservatives, if any, are in Cere; we're relying on the initial sterility of the solution for safety.

Recreational drug users are generally dissolving non-proteinaceous powders immediately before use.

My own experience with Cere is pretty much unchanged; I'm taking it on and off, I still like it, no adverse reactions.

Edited by trevyn, 10 July 2010 - 05:31 AM.

[Animal]

Of course recreational drug users and body builders don't constantly develop septicemia/infections but they suffer from them far more often then the average individual, a risk that you don't really want to take. We're not saying you're guaranteed to infect yourself, just that there is a much higher possibility with unsterilised material.