2208 replies to this topic

[trevyn]

10cc in the thigh is way too much. The absolute max is around 3cc. Your should probably split it up or inject in your gluts if your determined to do it all in one go

I'm curious if you have a specific concern with regard to this volume, or are citing nursing tradition. Thanks.

[Animal]

I'm sure 10cc's administered IM would feel unpleasant as the muscle tissue is forced apart but there should be no issue as long as he doesn't inject the same location more then once.

[chrono]

@trevyn: Nice underwear Seriously though, good video (esp. in 720p). I'd still like to make sure that we don't start answering the "I can't do a 10 minute google search; plz tell me how to do this" kind of questions endemic to this board (or more fairly, the internet), but your video is a good reference for excellent technique.

Since it's an uncommon item that seems pretty important to doing this safely, could you let us know a reliable place (for non-biochemists) to source SLSV025LS filters?

As a reminder, Trevyn posted a ref in #183 showing that 10cc is acceptable. Though if, as animal suggests, it may lead to problems if the same site is soon re-used, splitting it between two sites might ameliorate potential damage?


Since it seems likely to be an ongoing conversation mostly-unrelated to CRB, I moved Rol82's regimen and related replies to a new thread.

Edited by chrono, 18 August 2010 - 09:37 PM.

[TophetLOL]

What needle size is recommended for iv or im injections with Cerebrolysin? I'm thinking about buying 22gx1" needles. Does that seem to be ok?

I'm probably going to make an order (Cerebrolysin and syringes&needles) next week .

I'm considering following cycle: 5days (mon-friday) * 10 ml * 4 weeks

1" 22g needles should be fine for IM, depending on your build. Don't shoot it direct into your veins, please. You want to get it into the muscle, obviously, and if you insert or remove the needle slowly, there's a pretty obvious density difference between the outer fat layer and the inner muscle layer.

I find 10ml daily difficult, because this should be done in two injections, and 1) I don't find the injection process terribly fun and 2) I end up with lots of holes in my thighs.

IV injection is probably the most effective administration method, but also the most risky and because I don't have any previous experience in doing IV injections on myself I guess that isn't a very good idea, just as you say .

Why can't I inject 10 ml in one shot? Is that dosage to high when doing IM injection? Isn't the bioaviability so poor anyway?

Almost all the references I could find regarding IM injection recommended limiting volume injected to a single site to 3-5mL, less for the deltoid muscle. But apparently that's not founded:

http://findarticles....ag=content;col1 :

"An exhaustive review of the literature yielded a total of five studies from 1996 to 2002 which provide support for the use of intramuscular fosphenytoin in volumes up to 30 mL in single sites using single injections.

While the practice of limiting intramuscular volume to 5 mL has been utilized in nursing for many years, there is no current literature that supports this practice."

*goes and orders some 10mL syringes*

From the article: "It is important to remember that the recommendation for increasing the volume of intramuscular injections above the traditional 5 mL is exclusive to fosphenytoin. Further research is needed on other drugs with different physiochemical properties to ascertain safety of increased volumes in those drugs."

Cerebrolysin has anesthetic properties, your doing a lot more damage then you can feel. Fosphenytoin is also only used for 5 days at most which limits the amount of scar tissue that can develop.

[trevyn]

Since it's an uncommon item that seems pretty important to doing this safely, could you let us know a reliable place (for non-biochemists) to source SLSV025LS filters?

I got mine from Fisher Scientific; I believe they accept personal orders.

I did some further research on filters a while back, and it appears that Millipore's SLGV033RS filter would also be acceptable, as it is a 0.22µm, sterile, non-pyrogenic, low-protein binding, hydrophilic PVDF filter. The smaller pore size would have the advantage of potentially filtering out some bacteria/contaminants for added safety; 5µm is too large to catch most bacteria. Note that the user guide for this filter recommends using a 10cc or larger syringe due to pressure ratings.

As a reminder, Trevyn posted a ref in #183 showing that 10cc is acceptable. Though if, as animal suggests, it may lead to problems if the same site is soon re-used, splitting it between two sites might ameliorate potential damage?

I do tend to alternate between left and right leg, and try to move the actual injection point around some.

Also, since there was some discussion on it, I've ordered several times from drugs-pro, and their customer service and shipping has been reliable. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to comment authoritatively about the authenticity of their (or anyone else's) product, which is why I've been hesitant to talk suppliers. I did enjoy hearing about the Internationale Apotheke in Austria -- it's not currently a high priority for me, but I suspect that I may be able to procure a legitimate prescription that I could send to them. If I do this eventually, I will absolutely report back about it.

[trevyn]

Almost all the references I could find regarding IM injection recommended limiting volume injected to a single site to 3-5mL, less for the deltoid muscle. But apparently that's not founded:

http://findarticles....ag=content;col1 :

"An exhaustive review of the literature yielded a total of five studies from 1996 to 2002 which provide support for the use of intramuscular fosphenytoin in volumes up to 30 mL in single sites using single injections.

While the practice of limiting intramuscular volume to 5 mL has been utilized in nursing for many years, there is no current literature that supports this practice."

*goes and orders some 10mL syringes*

From the article: "It is important to remember that the recommendation for increasing the volume of intramuscular injections above the traditional 5 mL is exclusive to fosphenytoin. Further research is needed on other drugs with different physiochemical properties to ascertain safety of increased volumes in those drugs."

Cerebrolysin has anesthetic properties, your doing a lot more damage then you can feel. Fosphenytoin is also only used for 5 days at most which limits the amount of scar tissue that can develop.

Point taken, though it also says "No research could be found regarding tissue injury following intramuscular injection of any volume other than the studies on fosphenytoin cited earlier."

By the way, the Cere insert mentions "Sodium hydroxide and water for injection" as the only excipients; where would this claimed anesthetic effect be coming from?

Hmm, it also mentions "Doses of up to 5 ml IM and up to 10 ml undiluted IV may be given." (I'm assuming that the 5 mL IM limitation is solely due to the common nursing practice regarding volume.) As I get more comfortable injecting myself with things, I may try a straight 10 mL IV shot just to see if it has a noticeably different effect.

Edited by trevyn, 19 August 2010 - 04:00 AM.

[Bentonite]

Any new feedback anyone?

[Animal]

Any new feedback anyone?

Yeah, since the onset of appreciative effects is fairly rapid with Cerebrolysin, I'm hoping that trevyn will give us an assessment soon!

[Bentonite]

Any new feedback anyone?

Yeah, since the onset of appreciative effects is fairly rapid with Cerebrolysin, I'm hoping that trevyn will give us an assessment soon!

I'll give you my 2 cents in September, I hope.

[chrono]

Yeah, since the onset of appreciative effects is fairly rapid with Cerebrolysin, I'm hoping that trevyn will give us an assessment soon!

Trevyn reported on his CRB experience waaay back in this thread, and a few posts ago said nothing has really changed.

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't to read the earlier parts of the thread carefully. Together, the experiences of 2150, RussianBear, matter_of_time, legis and trevyn are very interesting, and suggest a few unique and interesting effects.

[arvcondor]

After an unacceptable delay in the shipment of my needles, they finally came. I just injected around 8 ml (since the needle wouldn't reach all the way down to the bottom of the ampule), one shot in each thigh.

I felt nauseous afterwards, which is a side effect either of the drug or the fear I felt when sticking the needle in me. My muscles twitched when the needle found its way to them. Not a pleasant experience, and not one I look forward to repeating, but which I'll repeat on schedule anyway.

Will post with relevant updates.

[arvcondor]

Day 7, still no effect.

[Logan]

Trevyn or arvcondor, either of you out there and want to weigh in on your experiences with Cerebrolysin?

[Logan]

Are there any concerns over interactions with cerebrolysin and antidepressants? Maybe I missed discussion of this in this thread

[arvcondor]

Are there any concerns over interactions with cerebrolysin and antidepressants? Maybe I missed discussion of this in this thread

The literature indicates that you should taper down your antidepressants if you're using Cere.

As for my own experiences, it's been pretty disappointing. I'm not sure why I've missed out on the benefits that others seem to get.

[medievil]

Are there any concerns over interactions with cerebrolysin and antidepressants? Maybe I missed discussion of this in this thread

The literature indicates that you should taper down your antidepressants if you're using Cere.

As for my own experiences, it's been pretty disappointing. I'm not sure why I've missed out on the benefits that others seem to get.

Perhaps cortexin may be for you, i remember someone mentioning he didnt like cere but loved cortexin, but i'm not sure, everyone's differend.

[Logan]

Thanks Medieval, I read some about cortexin, I'll have to go back and read more on it.

[chrono]

The literature indicates that you should taper down your antidepressants if you're using Cere.

Just to clarify, I think it was the product literature which suggested this. I don't think any studies mention drug interactions. This may be based on something very relevant, or be a more general drug warning. And I'm sure it depends on the antidepressant, too, though I'm assuming morganator means some kind of SSRI?

Not that I'm saying you should combine them, just trying to clarify.

As for my own experiences, it's been pretty disappointing. I'm not sure why I've missed out on the benefits that others seem to get.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Certainly, everyone reacts differently to pretty much everything we discuss here.

That being said, it doesn't seem like you gave it very long. Neurotrophic factors can take a while to have an effect (though a more immediate effect was implied by some experiences, and a few papers).

Edited by chrono, 07 September 2010 - 11:49 PM.

[chrono]

A new Cerebrolysin study, demonstrating effects lasting 3 months after a standard course of treatment (in vascular dementia patients):

Persistence of the effects of Cerebrolysin on cognition and qEEG slowing in vascular dementia patients: Results of a 3-month extension study.
Muresanu DF, Alvarez XA, Moessler H, Novak PH, Stan A, Buzoianu A, Bajenaru O, Popescu BO.
Department of Neurology, University of Medicine and Pharmacy 'Iuliu Hatieganu' Cluj-Napoca, Romania.

The maintenance of the effects of Cerebrolysin, a peptidergic compound with neurotrophic activity, on cognitive performance and qEEG activity was investigated through a 12-week, open-label extension of a 4-week, randomised, placebo-controlled pilot study. Thirty-three out of 41 patients with mild-to-moderate severe probable vascular dementia (VaD) according to NINDS-AIREN participating in the double-blind phase of the study were also assessed at the follow-up visit at week 16. Patients received i.v. infusions of Cerebrolysin (10 or 30mL) or placebo (saline) 5days/week for 4weeks. Neuropsychological evaluations and qEEG recordings were done at baseline, week 4 and week 16. The mean change in score from baseline in the ADAS-cog+ and the slow-to-fast qEEG power ratio (PR), used as an index of qEEG slowing, were the two primary endpoints. Correlations between changes in cognition and qEEG induced by the treatment were also assessed. At the week 16 follow-up visit, Cerebrolysin improved (p<0.05) cognitive performance at the 10-mL and 30-mL doses and reduced qEEG slowing significantly (p<0.05) at the 30-mL dose with respect to the placebo. In addition, a significant (p<0.05) positive correlation between the change from the baseline qEEG PR and ADAS-cog+ variables was observed at week 16. These results indicate a persistence of the beneficial effects of Cerebrolysin on cognition and qEEG activity in VaD patients for at least 12weeks after treatment cessation, and they suggest the potential utility of qEEG parameters as biomarkers for VaD clinical trials.

PMID: 20923712 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

And another one showing enhanced neurogenesis after ischemia:

Cerebrolysin enhances neurogenesis in the ischemic brain and improves functional outcome after stroke.
Zhang C, Chopp M, Cui Y, Wang L, Zhang R, Zhang L, Lu M, Szalad A, Doppler E, Hitzl M, Zhang ZG.
Department of Neurology, Henry Ford Hospital, Detroit, Michigan.

Cerebrolysin is a peptide preparation mimicking the action of neurotrophic factors and has beneficial effects on neurodegenerative diseases and stroke. The present study investigated the effect of Cerebrolysin on neurogenesis in a rat model of embolic middle cerebral artery occlusion (MCAo). Treatment with Cerebrolysin at doses of 2.5 and 5 ml/kg significantly increased the number of bromodeoxyuridine-positive (BrdU(+)) subventricular zone (SVZ) neural progenitor cells and doublecortin (DCX) immunoreactivity (migrating neuroblasts) in the ipsilateral SVZ and striatal ischemic boundary 28 days after stroke when the treatment was initiated 24 hr after stroke. The treatment also reduced TUNEL(+) cells by ∼50% in the ischemic boundary. However, treatment with Cerebrolysin at a dose of 2.5 ml/kg initiated at 24 and 48 hr did not significantly reduce infarct volume but substantially improved neurological outcomes measured by an array of behavioral tests 21 and 28 days after stroke. Incubation of SVZ neural progenitor cells from ischemic rats with Cerebrolysin dose dependently augmented BrdU(+) cells and increased the number of Tuj1(+) cells (a marker of immature neurons). Blockage of the PI3K/Akt pathway abolished Cerebrolysin-increased BrdU(+) cells. Moreover, Cerebrolysin treatment promoted neural progenitor cell migration. Collectively, these data indicate that Cerebrolysin treatment when initiated 24 and 48 hr after stroke enhances neurogenesis in the ischemic brain and improves functional outcome and that Cerebrolysin-augmented proliferation, differentiation, and migration of adult SVZ neural progenitor cells contribute to Cerebrolysin-induced neurogenesis, which may be related to improvement of neurological outcome. The PI3K/Akt pathway mediates Cerebrolysin-induced progenitor cell proliferation.

PMID: 20857512 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Edited by chrono, 08 October 2010 - 06:33 AM.

[SucubbusLT]

Hello everyone. I have been investigating Cerebrosylin for some time and finally tommorow i will try it myself. For me it seems safe with big potential, the only drawbacks are price and that it must be injected. Tommorow i will try my first intramuscular injection into buttock or hip (still hasn't decided yet). Any opinions where it could be better, if the injection i will do myself? Also i will post here results.

[Logan]

Definitely post your experience!

[Solarclimax]

Hello everyone. I have been investigating Cerebrosylin for some time and finally tommorow i will try it myself. For me it seems safe with big potential, the only drawbacks are price and that it must be injected. Tommorow i will try my first intramuscular injection into buttock or hip (still hasn't decided yet). Any opinions where it could be better, if the injection i will do myself? Also i will post here results.

I did it in my thigs, Tried it in but and it stung a little. I just ordered some more cortexinum :-)

[SucubbusLT]

So, this morning was my first 5ml injection into thigs. I was quite nervous. It was not painfull afterall. Now i feel somehow strange, but it might be placebo. Anyway, everything seems ok and i am definetly waiting for real results

[Hypothermic]

Hello everyone. I have been investigating Cerebrosylin for some time and finally tommorow i will try it myself. For me it seems safe with big potential, the only drawbacks are price and that it must be injected. Tommorow i will try my first intramuscular injection into buttock or hip (still hasn't decided yet). Any opinions where it could be better, if the injection i will do myself? Also i will post here results.

I did it in my thigs, Tried it in but and it stung a little. I just ordered some more cortexinum :-)

Where did you order your cortexinum? Are you taking simultaneously with Cere?

[Solarclimax]

Where did you order your cortexinum? Are you taking simultaneously with Cere?

Pharmacy 1010. (site seems to be down at the moment) I thought about the Cortexin/Cere combo, but I couldn't figure if this could be dangerous or not ?
Any thoughts ?

Edited by Solarclimax, 14 October 2010 - 09:31 AM.

[SucubbusLT]

Ok, day two i am using cerebrolysin. As i inject in the morning, i can definetly feel extra energy and less anxiety during the day. Interesting thing, that i felt this effect even on the first day. Also this extra energy has helped me with concentration and motivation during lectures writing down notes, as usualy i don't write much of them, but on cerebrolysin it is much easier and not so tiresome to do it.
Also there is a feeling i can't describe... Like something is different, i just can't identify what. For me it seems that this unnatural feeling somehow really reduces my anxiety. Its somehow like being drunk without dizzyness? Also i haven't noticed any mood improvement.

Where did you order your cortexinum? Are you taking simultaneously with Cere?

Pharmacy 1010. (site seems to be down at the moment) I thought about the Cortexin/Cere combo, but I couldn't figure if this could be dangerous or not ? Any thoughts ?

- At first i thinked that is the same thing, but i found a link here which compares these two:
We compared central effects of polypeptide preparations cortexin and cerebrolysin injected into brain ventricles of Wistar rats in doses of 1, 10, and 100 µg. Both drugs exhibited moderate psychoactivating effect, the effects cortexin were more pronounced compared to those of cerebrolysin in all tests.
http://www.springerl...1665785v75lk53/

It seems they are not the same and Cortexin might be more effective. However Cerebrolysin works for me and i get it from local pharmacy for a cheap price so i will stick to that

[Solarclimax]

Don't think i'll be injecting into the brain ventricles anytime soon.

What country you in to get Cere over counter ? Does it come with the hologram ?

Edited by Solarclimax, 14 October 2010 - 10:05 PM.

[SucubbusLT]

No, i haven't seen any hologram on it. Where it should be and how should it look? I get it from Lithuania. The package and papers are translated to Lithuanian language, but Cerebrolysin itself is produced in Austria by EVER Neuro Pharma GmbH, Mondseestraβe 11 A-4866 Unterach.

[Solarclimax]

I'm familiar with where it's produced. Just seems strange that some come with holograms and some don't
The stuff i had was supposedly from Lithuania. Can't convincingly say it did anything for me. Even the cortexinum i got from pharma1010 came with a hologram on the box

Edited by Solarclimax, 15 October 2010 - 03:03 PM.

[Hypothermic]

Where did you order your cortexinum? Are you taking simultaneously with Cere?

Pharmacy 1010. (site seems to be down at the moment) I thought about the Cortexin/Cere combo, but I couldn't figure if this could be dangerous or not ?
Any thoughts ?

Thanks.

I went to Pharmacy1010, and their site was down, I panicked and thought they closed operations! I would not know of any implications of taking Cortexin and Cere together.
There was one study that mentioned both of them regarding behavioral effects of cortexin and cerebrolysin injected into brain ventricles.

Source: http://www.springerl...1665785v75lk53/