2208 replies to this topic

[brotherx]

Yes, that's interesting.
That was until 2003 - I think that - 6 years later, the possibility is high that counterfeit manufacturers are now able to reproduce a 100 % similar package and appearance.
Because it would be just pure profit for them.

Cheers

Alex

"Cerebrolysin solution produced under a nonexisting series was confiscated from pharmacies in Kiev. All medications as a whole met the requirements set forth in the specifications, but their markings differed from those of the genuine product. The package of counterfeit drugs did not bear the corresponding trademark. The manufacturer (Ebeve, Austria) said this series was not produced by the company and was not exported to Ukraine. Investigation by the State Department for Quality Control revealed that the certificate accompanying the medication was issued for another medication produced by a pharmaceutical company from India. Counterfeit cerebrolysin was also found in Volhynia wherein the ampoules had labels different from the authentic product." (http://pdf.usaid.gov...cs/PNACW986.pdf) (2003 document)

[brotherx]

For how long did you smoke?

Cheers

Alex

Cerebrolysin does not stimulate appetite in my case, it might even suspress my appetite.
I quit smoking two days before I took the first shot of Cerebrolysin, it made it really easy. I never had the urged to smoke a cigarette.

-If you thought weed gets you the munchies, wait till you try this stuff. When you first start on this cycle, you get hungry as a SAVAGE. I usually eat just enough to be full, not overly gorged, but this stuff had me tearing up huge meals and not even feeling incapacitated by everything I just ate. I'd attribute this to the fact that with all the additional peptides and stuff, your body needs more nutrition. Sort of like adding B-vitamins to stuff like Pyritinol or even good old 5-HTP.

Sounds to me like Cerebrolysin might just contain ghrelin, a potent endogenous peptide nootropic and stimulator of appetite.

It may very well; Ghrelin is a 3kDa peptide. I don't know if the peptide fraction includes all naturally occurring <10kDa peptides in their natural ratios in pig brain, or if there is some other form of selection.

Also interesting is that appetite is regulated by a leptin/ghrelin feedback loop (PMID: 15867335), and Cerebrolysin likely does not contain leptin, as it is a 16kDa peptide. Ghrelin itself does not seem to stimulate endogenous leptin production.

[matter_of_time]

I have been smoking for 14 years.

This morning I have done the best workout since I start working out again.

I still don't know if this is due the effects of Cerebrolysin. Because I am working 70 hours a week I don't have always enough energy left to do a good work out. This morning was quit different.

I friend is interested in Cerebrolysin, but she wants to get pregnant next year. Could this involve any risk?

[Invariant]

I have been smoking for 14 years.

This morning I have done the best workout since I start working out again.

I still don't know if this is due the effects of Cerebrolysin. Because I am working 70 hours a week I don't have always enough energy left to do a good work out. This morning was quit different.

I friend is interested in Cerebrolysin, but she wants to get pregnant next year. Could this involve any risk?

Yes there is risk involved. Not because we know it's unsafe for pregnant women, but because we don't know it is safe! We don't even know 100% sure it's safe for normal healthy individuals. Add to that the risk of counterfeit products and contaminations, it would be extremely irresponsible of her to use this. Tell her to practice patience.

[brotherx]

So you quit smoking after 14 years without any major issues?
Have you ever tried to quit smoking before?

Alex

I have been smoking for 14 years.

This morning I have done the best workout since I start working out again.

I still don't know if this is due the effects of Cerebrolysin. Because I am working 70 hours a week I don't have always enough energy left to do a good work out. This morning was quit different.

I friend is interested in Cerebrolysin, but she wants to get pregnant next year. Could this involve any risk?

[NootropicEU]

I have been smoking for 14 years.

This morning I have done the best workout since I start working out again.

I still don't know if this is due the effects of Cerebrolysin. Because I am working 70 hours a week I don't have always enough energy left to do a good work out. This morning was quit different.

I friend is interested in Cerebrolysin, but she wants to get pregnant next year. Could this involve any risk?

Yes there is risk involved. Not because we know it's unsafe for pregnant women, but because we don't know it is safe! We don't even know 100% sure it's safe for normal healthy individuals. Add to that the risk of counterfeit products and contaminations, it would be extremely irresponsible of her to use this. Tell her to practice patience.

Risk of counterfeit products and contaminations? Well, don't buy paracetamol or aspirin because it can be faked and contaminated.

It is very unlikely that a product sold in EU pharmacy will be faked. In fact I have never heard of a faked Cerebrolysin in EU. Just don't buy it from the third world countries.

Cerebrolysin has been in the market for ages. It has been used on children. It has very little side effects. I don't think that it could be more dangerous than Piracetam

However I would not use any medicines, recreational drugs or alcohol at least 3 months before trying to get pregnant.

[Invariant]

You are right about the counterfeit products, but that was actually not my main argument. I would not advise using piracetam during pregnancy either, as long as there are no studies showing it is safe in pregnant women (maybe these do exist for piracetam). Untill you find such a study for piracetam or cere, don't use either while pregnant.

Even piracetam, purported to be the ultimately safe drug by all the vendors and old research can not be considered safe for pregnant women unless it is proven to be so. Piracetam's mode of action is not known and there are indications it has hormonal effects/is hormone dependant, something I would not want to mess with during pregnancy.

But let's stay on topic: are there studies that show cere is safe for pregnant women?

[brotherx]

Are you still using it? Do you have any additional experiences to share?

Cheers

Alex

I have been smoking for 14 years.

This morning I have done the best workout since I start working out again.

I still don't know if this is due the effects of Cerebrolysin. Because I am working 70 hours a week I don't have always enough energy left to do a good work out. This morning was quit different.

I friend is interested in Cerebrolysin, but she wants to get pregnant next year. Could this involve any risk?

[matter_of_time]

Last week I could not use Cerebrolysin

I started yesterday again (Sunday) and took another shot this morning.

I still don't smoke, I did not feel the need to smoke any cigarets since I quit.

I feel the big difference when I don't use Cerebrolysin.

[trevyn]

Shipped from UK:
Lot 707819, Exp 06/2011


Shipped from Kyrgyzstan:
Lot 83013804, Production 01/2009, Exp 12/2013

Edited by trevyn, 03 November 2009 - 12:09 AM.

[trevyn]

Did my first injection this morning, used a 5 micron filter needle to draw up 5mL (ampoules can leave glass shards in the fluid!), then a 1" 23 gauge thin wall needle to inject in the vastus lateralis site. (I'm a tall guy, but have little fat in my outer thigh, so I think 1" is sufficient.) I inserted the needle extremely slowly (~60 sec) and injected equally slowly. Other than the initial needle prick, I experienced no pain or numbness.

"The authors found that patients develop several different strategies for the injection. Some insert the needle quickly, whereas others insert the needle slowly, perhaps taking 30 seconds or longer to reach the muscle, for an IM injection. Although injecting this slowly is certainly not taught in nursing school and may increase pain in patients who increase muscle tension in response to inserting the needle, there is no hygienic reason to avoid it." - Self-Injection Difficulties in Patients With Relapsing-Remitting MS: Treatment of Self-Injection Anxiety

I was a little agitated for a few hours after the injection, but that's easily attributed to self-injection anxiety. The rest of today, no notable effects, positive or negative, other than excitement about trying the drug.

[trevyn]

As for the literature:

Gschanes A, Windisch M. "The influence of Cerebrolysin and E021 on spatial navigation of 24-month-old rats." (PMID 9700667):

Apparently 24 months is old for a rat, average lifespan for a Long Evans (as used in this study) is 2-3 years. Anyway, these are old, but non-lesioned rats. Treated with CL for 15 days, then 4 trial days in the water maze, while still being treated:



Also, I somehow managed to completely miss: Funke M, Fiehler J, Mewes I, Eiselt M, Rother I, Windisch M. "Dose-dependent effects of Cerebrolysin on EEG and short-term memory of healthy volunteers during control and hyperventilation induced cerebral ischemia." (PMID 9700674).

Healthy humans! Woah!



Baseline is pre-hyperventilation, they didn't report chronic effects on the post-hyperventilation cognitive test. It's unclear if the day 11 data is also p<0.05. Also, I like how the caption states an asterisk means p >= 0.05. (It was like that in all the charts in this article, even where there was clear significance.)

"For cognitive testing of short-term memory, five runs of a Brown Petersen Paradigm were used. For one run six nouns with 1-3 syllables were presented by audiotape. These nouns were standardized with respect to imaginary[sic], concreteness and meaningfulness. This was followed by 20 sec of calculation -7, +5, -7, +5 etc. starting with a number greater than 100. Then the volunteer was asked for the nouns presented first. The number of correctly remembered words (maximum 30) as well as the number of calculation steps were documented."

Also, for some reason I am touch-typing now; I don't usually do that even though I can do so reasonably well. Thanks Cerebrolysin!

Edited by trevyn, 03 November 2009 - 03:56 AM.

[yowza]

Please, keep use posted on how this Cerebrolysin trial goes for you. Very interesting study, I was just going to post and ask about this since I've been following this thread pretty closely. Can't wait to try this myself when my financial situation clears up.

[TophetLOL]

I tasted some of it and it would actually make a good food condiment since it tastes like not salty soy sauce, confirming that its mostly amino acids.
As for my experiences with it I cut back on masturbating about 80%.
I recognized my two of my elementary school classmates within a hour that I haven't seen for almost a decade. They didn't look like anything how they were back then but I was able to immediately recognize them. I remembered there full names and had no doubt in my mind that it was them. They were not my friends or ever mean to me, they were in the background so to speak. My elementary school days are repressed because I had a very painful childhood. Until those events I had never recognized any of my elementary school classmates in my five years of college. In fact I probably saw them before and thought nothing of them, I estimate I had at least 50 events in which I encountered my past classmates, yet I never recognized them until now.
My neuroscience professor mentioned that amphetamines given to ADHD kids prevents the brain from pruning off connections in there teenage years, without this pruning it is hard for the brain to stabilize and bad things happen. I suspect that I may have regrew some connections in the "black hole" part of my memory and that is why I was able to remember. So I decided to cut back to a shot every three days from five shots a week to prevent too many connections from growing at once. I'm sure my butt is happy about it too.

Edited by TophetLOL, 04 November 2009 - 02:56 AM.

[trevyn]

TophetLOL, how long were you using CL for when you noticed these effects?

My second shot this morning went well, still no definite effect. I'm definitely going to taste tomorrow's leftovers, ha.

Edited by trevyn, 04 November 2009 - 02:52 AM.

[TophetLOL]

<br />TophetLOL, how long were you using CL for when you noticed these effects?<br /><br />My second shot this morning went well, still no definite effect. I'm definitely going to taste tomorrow's leftovers, ha.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

It happened the day after my 5th shot.

[pok3ypup]

Any updates today on people that are trying this?

[trevyn]

3rd shot this morning, still alive, no side-effects or problems with the injection. I am hesitant to report potential positive effects that are not very unusual or potent. I did have a midterm today that I was ill-prepared for, and I will say that I have not noticed a decline in cognitive performance.

Oh, and it does kind of taste like not-salty soy sauce.

Edited by trevyn, 05 November 2009 - 04:48 AM.

[nanothan]

"Cerebrolysin solution produced under a nonexisting series was confiscated from pharmacies in Kiev. All medications as a whole met the requirements set forth in the specifications, but their markings differed from those of the genuine product. The package of counterfeit drugs did not bear the corresponding trademark. The manufacturer (Ebeve, Austria) said this series was not produced by the company and was not exported to Ukraine. Investigation by the State Department for Quality Control revealed that the certificate accompanying the medication was issued for another medication produced by a pharmaceutical company from India. Counterfeit cerebrolysin was also found in Volhynia wherein the ampoules had labels different from the authentic product."

According to the bold part above, the fake cerebrolysin was still REAL cerebrolysin, it was just made by a different company, correct, because I have some cerebrolysin from Ukraine, and it would be nice to know that even if it was fake, there is still a high chance that it is at least close to real cerebrolysin.

Also, have any of you tried to contact Ebewe to check the serial numbers of your lot, or anything? If you try doing this please respond with what they said. My bottles look pretty real, because they were made in 2008 and they look kind of old and they have holograms on them so I think that they are probably real.

[trevyn]

Can you post pics of yours? Neither set of mine (from two different countries, in two different languages) have holograms on the ampoules or box.

As to the content, try tasting it.

[nanothan]

On the second thought, I doubt they would bother faking the holograms, boxes, ampules, and cerebrolysin, since I doubt they get enough volume of sales from online pharmacies for it to be worth it.

[nanothan]

Can you post pics of yours? Neither set of mine (from two different countries, in two different languages) have holograms on the ampoules or box.

As to the content, try tasting it.

I did taste it once, when I spilled some and soaked it in some bread and ate it. With the bread I couldn't taste much except for a salty taste, but it has a very distinct odor which definitely smells like something which came from pig brains.

I don't have any pics right now, but I will upload some tomorrow from my camera. The hologram held the box closed and was like a small .5*.5 inch square shaped piece of reflective, metallic-looking tape with a hologram of a persons brain with some arrows and it says "Cerebrolysin" on it.

Edited by 2150???????????, 05 November 2009 - 09:05 AM.

[pok3ypup]

"Cerebrolysin solution produced under a nonexisting series was confiscated from pharmacies in Kiev. All medications as a whole met the requirements set forth in the specifications, but their markings differed from those of the genuine product. The package of counterfeit drugs did not bear the corresponding trademark. The manufacturer (Ebeve, Austria) said this series was not produced by the company and was not exported to Ukraine. Investigation by the State Department for Quality Control revealed that the certificate accompanying the medication was issued for another medication produced by a pharmaceutical company from India. Counterfeit cerebrolysin was also found in Volhynia wherein the ampoules had labels different from the authentic product."

According to the bold part above, the fake cerebrolysin was still REAL cerebrolysin, it was just made by a different company, correct, because I have some cerebrolysin from Ukraine, and it would be nice to know that even if it was fake, there is still a high chance that it is at least close to real cerebrolysin.

Also, have any of you tried to contact Ebewe to check the serial numbers of your lot, or anything? If you try doing this please respond with what they said. My bottles look pretty real, because they were made in 2008 and they look kind of old and they have holograms on them so I think that they are probably real.

According to that statement it sounds like you should be A okay with your batch. It sounds like the reason it was confiscated was solely because it was being produced as an impostor to the Ebewe company, which would be copyright infringement (i think?). Try to find out if there is any possible way to test the purity of the solution with easy to get solvents. I don't really know what is actually in the Cerebrolysin solution, but I'm sure there is a way to test its purity.

Edited by pok3ypup, 05 November 2009 - 09:26 AM.

[trevyn]

All medications as a whole met the requirements set forth in the specifications, but their markings differed from those of the genuine product. The package of counterfeit drugs did not bear the corresponding trademark.

"The specifications" could just say "straw-colored liquid in 5mL ampoules", for all we know. Again, the problem is that there is no good test for Cerebrolysin, since we don't even know the exact peptide composition.

The quote above also suggests that perhaps the above-mentioned counterfeits didn't even say "Cerebrolysin" or "Ebewe" on them.

I did email Ebewe about my two lots earlier this week, I have not heard back yet.

(Just took 4th shot, no news to report.)

[nanothan]

Here are those pictures, the hologram is actually larger and more complicated than I thought (I didn't have the box in front of me). There is one to seal both flaps on the box and it is about 3 inches by 1 inches and has an bird on it and says Ebewe inside a logo and Cerebrolysin and has some numbers. This is for a box of 5 10 mL ampules, so it might be different than the 5 mL ampule box. At first I thought the holograms were kind of useless, since it could be transfered from one box to another, but when I tried peeling it off it came apart and the reflective part was bonded to the box, probably so it is tamper evident.

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[trevyn]

"We've contacted Ebewe Neuro Pharma and spoke with Claha to try and determine if the products you received were authentic. While over the phone she seemed convinced after we provided details from the images and notes you included, she recommended that we email her with links to the pictures you provided. We've sent her an email and will confirm her response one we hear back from her."

5th shot this morning, maybe there's an effect, maybe there's not, but I'm kind of sad that I'm not raving about it yet. *shrug*

I'm gonna go straight through the weekend and not suspend the injections for 2 days.

2150, are you injecting 10mL?

[nanothan]

"We've contacted Ebewe Neuro Pharma and spoke with Claha to try and determine if the products you received were authentic. While over the phone she seemed convinced after we provided details from the images and notes you included, she recommended that we email her with links to the pictures you provided. We've sent her an email and will confirm her response one we hear back from her."

5th shot this morning, maybe there's an effect, maybe there's not, but I'm kind of sad that I'm not raving about it yet. *shrug*

I'm gonna go straight through the weekend and not suspend the injections for 2 days.

2150, are you injecting 10mL?

I was planning on taking 5mL and storing 5mL from each ampule in a sterile syringe in a refrigerator, but all three times so far, either I took to long, I touched it somewhere and was afraid it was contaminated or something and decided to just inject it all. The first time I spilled about 5mL ($11.50 down the drain), however the next 2 times I got about 9mL in, in 3 shots. I figured out a way of bending a 30 gauge needle so that it is completely sealed, without touching the tip, but last time, when I was testing to see that nothing would come out the needle, I must have pressed to hard because some came out the back, so I decided it wasn't sealed, and just injected it, rather than storing it.

Edited by 2150???????????, 08 November 2009 - 02:53 AM.

[trevyn]

7th injection completed this morning.

It's a subtle effect, but I wanted to share what I've noticed that seems a bit out of the ordinary.

Due to my current schedule, I don't tend to get much sleep on Wednesday or Thursday nights, and so by Friday I'm usually falling asleep all over the place by mid-afternoon. This week, despite staying out later than usual on Thursday night, I still felt very tired by Friday afternoon, but took a quick nap and then ended up staying out very late Friday night as well. Got some (but not a LOT of) sleep that night, and then went on a first date Saturday afternoon. Normally I'd expect to be completely zoned out due to sleep deficit by that point, but I was surprisingly alert and cogent for a good 8 hours. I also felt unusually calm and confident throughout the date.

Also, I tend to sleep in as a mild depression-related "trying to avoid the world" type thing, and that desire to sleep in seems to be noticeably reduced.

Time seems to pass somewhat more slowly, I'll frequently look at the clock and it's somewhat earlier than I expect. (Even in the middle of the night; I doubt it's a daylight-savings-time effect.)

So it's not automatically making me psyched about studying for my other midterm next week as I hoped, but it does seem to have a subtle, pleasant balancing effect so far. I'm not sure I'd recommend it at this point given the need for injections, but I'm getting used to the injection process and will definitely continue to take it for the time being.

Full disclosure: I also got some blood tests back on Friday, which indicated the possibility of a reactivated EBV infection (equivocal early antigen IgG), and I immediately started Valtrex 1g twice daily. I also got some new shirts that I really like, and wore one on the date.

Edited by trevyn, 08 November 2009 - 10:46 PM.

[Arr Jay]

Full disclosure: I also got some blood tests back on Friday, which indicated the possibility of a reactivated EBV infection (equivocal early antigen IgG), and I immediately started Valtrex 1g twice daily. I also got some new shirts that I really like, and wore one on the date.

..... ... You do know that the human body's immune system does not tolerate its own brain, right?

That's why the BBB exists, to separate brain matter from immune system cells (sort of like a womb). I just read this 2 days ago (have been too busy with school work to post till now) , and the source seemed to suggest this was common knowledge. Over the weekend i'll post some passages from 'Brain Ischemia' by Gusev- specifically chapter 9, titled "Autoimmune mechanisms of Trophic Dysfunction and Ischemic Brain Damage". Although I briefly skimmed the first half of the chapter (I've seriously had a lot school work, sorry guys), it seems to suggest that prior sensitization of the immune system to neurotrophic factors and/or brain matter increases brain damage in the event the BBB becomes damaged (like during a stroke).

[trevyn]

You do know that the human body's immune system does not tolerate its own brain, right?

That's why the BBB exists, to separate brain matter from immune system cells (sort of like a womb). I just read this 2 days ago (have been too busy with school work to post till now) , and the source seemed to suggest this was common knowledge. Over the weekend i'll post some passages from 'Brain Ischemia' by Gusev- specifically chapter 9, titled "Autoimmune mechanisms of Trophic Dysfunction and Ischemic Brain Damage". Although I briefly skimmed the first half of the chapter (I've seriously had a lot school work, sorry guys), it seems to suggest that prior sensitization of the immune system to neurotrophic factors and/or brain matter increases brain damage in the event the BBB becomes damaged (like during a stroke).

I think the BBB is more often interpreted to protect the brain, (ref) and immune cells are allowed through the BBB in certain situations. (ref)

Both NGF (ref) and BDNF (ref) are present in serum.

Not that it really matters, since NGF, BDNF, NT-3, and NT-4 are all >10kDa (ref), and Cerebrolysin only contains peptides <10kDa.

That said, there are a lot of unknowns about the actual composition of Cerebrolysin and its mechanisms of action, and there are certainly unresolved questions about its potential immunogenicity, so I look forward to your followup post, specifically in regards to immune exposure to neurotrophic factors.

Edited by trevyn, 11 November 2009 - 04:34 AM.