38 replies to this topic

[athrahasis]

My mom has a serious kidney e-coli infection (traveled up from bladder), that is resistant to anti biotics. This is her 2nd infection in the same month. I'm trying to build an effective protocol to augment her immune system to fight it off, or augment the antibiotics

Some concerns: She's on coumadin (and lyrica), so INR is a concern, she has systemic Lupus, she is allergic to penicillin, has peripheral neuropathy (due to Lupus tissue damage). She's 59 years old, 5.7', about 135lbs.

Here is what I am thinking:

• Lactoferrin, caps (2gm? too much) with food
• Epicor, caps (2-4gms..?) with food
• Vitamin C powder 5000UI seperately
• Vitamin D3, 4000UI (she cant go in the sun due to Lupus) with food
• Probiotics (recover from the antibiotics damage to the GI track).. not sure which kind yet, any ideas?

Any other ideas? possible interactions? Dosage corrections?

Really appreciate any and all help.

[FunkOdyssey]

High doses of d-mannose (yes, still helpful even if it has traveled up to the kidney).

My mom has a serious kidney e-coli infection (traveled up from bladder), that is resistant to anti biotics. This is her 2nd infection in the same month. I'm trying to build an effective protocol to augment her immune system to fight it off, or augment the antibiotics

Some concerns: She's on coumadin (and lyrica), so INR is a concern, she has systemic Lupus, she is allergic to penicillin, has peripheral neuropathy (due to Lupus tissue damage). She's 59 years old, 5.7', about 135lbs.

Here is what I am thinking:

• Lactoferrin, caps (2gm? too much) with food
• Epicor, caps (2-4gms..?) with food
• Vitamin C powder 5000UI seperately
• Vitamin D3, 4000UI (she cant go in the sun due to Lupus) with food
• Probiotics (recover from the antibiotics damage to the GI track).. not sure which kind yet, any ideas?

Any other ideas? possible interactions? Dosage corrections?

Really appreciate any and all help.

[kismet]

Just a critical review of the status quo: vitamin D and infections

Epidemiol Infect. 2009 Mar 19:1-9. [Epub ahead of print]Related Articles, Links
A randomized controlled trial of vitamin D3 supplementation for the prevention of symptomatic upper respiratory tract infections.
Li-Ng M, Aloia JF, Pollack S, Cunha BA, Mikhail M, Yeh J, Berbari N.
"162 adults were randomized to receive 50 mug vitamin D3 (2000 IU) daily or matching placebo for 12 weeks. A bi-weekly questionnaire was used to record the incidence and severity of URI symptoms. There was no difference in the incidence of URIs between the vitamin D and placebo groups (48 URIs vs. 50 URIs, respectively, P=0.57). There was no difference in the duration or severity of URI symptoms between the vitamin D and placebo groups [5.4+/-4.8 days vs. 5.3+/-3.1 days, respectively, P=0.86 (95% CI for the difference in duration -1.8 to 2.1)]. The mean 25-hydroxyvitamin D level at baseline was similar in both groups (64.3+/-25.4 nmol/l in the vitamin D group; 63.0+/-25.8 nmol/l in the placebo group; n.s.). After 12 weeks, 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels increased significantly to 88.5+/-23.2 nmol/l in the vitamin D group, whereas there was no change in vitamin D levels in the placebo group. "

On the other hand:
J Nutr. 2009 Apr 8. [Epub ahead of print]
Maternal Vitamin D Deficiency Is Associated with Bacterial Vaginosis in the First Trimester of Pregnancy.
Bodnar LM, Krohn MA, Simhan HN.
"There was a dose-response association between 25(OH)D and the prevalence of BV. The prevalence declined as 25(OH)D increased to 80 nmol/L, then reached a plateau. Compared with a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 75 nmol/L, there were 1.65-fold (95% CI: 1.01, 2.69) and 1.26-fold (1.01, 1.57) increases in the prevalence of BV associated with a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 20 and 50 nmol/L, respectively, after adjustment for race and sexually transmitted diseases."

Epidemiology certainly does not trump RCTs (and there were two mostly positive secondary analysis of RCTs showing some effect of vitamin D and also other epidemiologic research à la NHANES III), but there still may be a causal relationship. Long term effects? Higher dose?

Edited by kismet, 15 April 2009 - 11:27 PM.

[athrahasis]

High doses of d-mannose (yes, still helpful even if it has traveled up to the kidney).

Thanks FunkOdyssey,

Yeah I had her on AOR brand of that and some additional cranberry extract, but it seemed to have become less effective over time. Is there a co factor that may amplify it? peperine or vit C? i searched on pubmed but so far nothing.

Edited by athrahasis, 16 April 2009 - 01:51 AM.

[athrahasis]

Just a critical review of the status quo: vitamin D and infections

Epidemiol Infect. 2009 Mar 19:1-9. [Epub ahead of print]Related Articles, Links
A randomized controlled trial of vitamin D3 supplementation for the prevention of symptomatic upper respiratory tract infections.
Li-Ng M, Aloia JF, Pollack S, Cunha BA, Mikhail M, Yeh J, Berbari N.
"162 adults were randomized to receive 50 mug vitamin D3 (2000 IU) daily or matching placebo for 12 weeks. A bi-weekly questionnaire was used to record the incidence and severity of URI symptoms. There was no difference in the incidence of URIs between the vitamin D and placebo groups (48 URIs vs. 50 URIs, respectively, P=0.57). There was no difference in the duration or severity of URI symptoms between the vitamin D and placebo groups [5.4+/-4.8 days vs. 5.3+/-3.1 days, respectively, P=0.86 (95% CI for the difference in duration -1.8 to 2.1)]. The mean 25-hydroxyvitamin D level at baseline was similar in both groups (64.3+/-25.4 nmol/l in the vitamin D group; 63.0+/-25.8 nmol/l in the placebo group; n.s.). After 12 weeks, 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels increased significantly to 88.5+/-23.2 nmol/l in the vitamin D group, whereas there was no change in vitamin D levels in the placebo group. "

On the other hand:
J Nutr. 2009 Apr 8. [Epub ahead of print]
Maternal Vitamin D Deficiency Is Associated with Bacterial Vaginosis in the First Trimester of Pregnancy.
Bodnar LM, Krohn MA, Simhan HN.
"There was a dose-response association between 25(OH)D and the prevalence of BV. The prevalence declined as 25(OH)D increased to 80 nmol/L, then reached a plateau. Compared with a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 75 nmol/L, there were 1.65-fold (95% CI: 1.01, 2.69) and 1.26-fold (1.01, 1.57) increases in the prevalence of BV associated with a serum 25(OH)D concentration of 20 and 50 nmol/L, respectively, after adjustment for race and sexually transmitted diseases."

Epidemiology certainly does not trump RCTs (and there were two mostly positive secondary analysis of RCTs showing some effect of vitamin D and also other epidemiologic research à la NHANES III), but there still may be a causal relationship. Long term effects? Higher dose?

Kismet,

It's abit confusing. I figured that she gets no sunlight whatsoever, it may be a seriously lacking immunity factor. The most serious issue from high dosages I guess (from my reading mostly on this forum) is D redistribution of calcium to the organs w/o vit K in the mix. Warfarin also has a calcification factor I've read about. I'm really paranoid about that stuff long term. I think I will ask her to test for D ASAP so at least we have a baseline.

Edited by athrahasis, 16 April 2009 - 01:55 AM.

[lunarsolarpower]

I'm not sure if probiotics would have any effect in the kidneys but they're cheap and shouldn't be harmful. Phage Therapy is an interesting modality I have heard of used as a last resort for antibiotic resistant infections. It requires travel to a former Soviet republic for one thing.

Edited by lunarsolarpower, 16 April 2009 - 02:39 AM.

[athrahasis]

I'm not sure if probiotics would have any effect in the kidneys but they're cheap and shouldn't be harmful. Phage Therapy is an interesting modality I have heard of used as a last resort for antibiotic resistant infections. It requires travel to a former Soviet republic for one thing.

I've read about it, thanks, thing is the Lupus. Her immune system is already pretty zealous, introducing another vector is something to consider... I've read there are pretty good successes, but in Israel (where my mom is) there are no practitioners, so yeah it would be FSU or China for that.

The probiotics btw, I'm just adding because she is taking anti-biotics (not terribly effective as I mentioned), but they are destroying her digestive cultures in the intestines. That said, they may have a general positive affect.... if they interupt the communicative pathways of e-coli. Huge if of course.

Edited by athrahasis, 16 April 2009 - 03:03 AM.

[k10]

What antibiotics has she used to treat this?

What I would do:

* D-mannose high dosages
* Forskolin

The team at Duke University Medical Center say an extract from the Indian coleus plant, Forskolin, prevents urinary tract infections in the bladder recurring even after treatment with antibiotics; Forskolin they say has the potential along with antibiotics to kill the bacteria that cause 90 percent of infections in the bladder.

Almost all urinary tract infections (UTI's) in the bladder are caused by the E. coli bacteria and women are far more susceptible to them than men.

All too often the infection returns within weeks of antibiotic treatment; UTI's are a serious health problem affecting millions of people each year and are the second most common type of infection in the body; they account for about 8.3 million doctor visits each year.

One in five women develop a UTI during their lifetime and as many as 20 percent of those will have another, and 30 percent of those will have yet another, with an 80 percent chance of a recurring infection.

Research funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) suggests that one factor behind recurrent UTIs may be the ability of bacteria to attach to cells lining the urinary tract and a recent NIH-funded study found that the bacteria formed a protective film on the inner lining of the bladder in mice.

Although a UTI can exist without symptoms, most people experience some discomfort, ranging from a frequent urge to urinate and a painful, burning feeling in the area of the bladder or urethra during urination, to feeling generally unwell.

It is common for a person with a urinary infection to complain that, despite the urge to urinate, only a small amount of urine is passed which may appear milky or cloudy, even reddish if blood is present.

A UTI accompanied by a fever can indicate the infection has reached the kidneys.

The Duke University researchers carried out a series of experiments in mice, and suggest that urinary tract infections in the bladder return even after treatment with antibiotics because some bacteria hide in cells lining the bladder, where they cannot be reached by antibiotics.

They survive antibiotic treatment and wait for the opportunity to emerge and start multiplying again.

They discovered that Forskolin flushes out hiding colonies of bacteria, making them susceptible to antibiotic treatment.

Lead researcher microbiologist Dr. Soman Abraham says the herb is known to rev up certain cellular activity and has been used in Asia for centuries for a wide variety of ailments,including the treatment of painful urination.

Forskolin is often added to bodybuilding products and promoted for it's ability to increase lean body and bone mass, as well as to increase testosterone levels.

The herb has also been claimed to be an effective weight-loss aid but as with most herbal extracts has not been tested nor regulated by the Food and Drug Administration.

Abraham recommends that anyone with a urinary tract infection should contact their physician before trying Forskolin.

For the research the mice had Forskolin injected directly into the bladder or administered intravenously; the herb appeared to expel more than 75 percent of the hiding E. coli and it now remains for the team to establish whether or not the herb is effective when mice receive it orally as that is how it would be used in humans.

The experiments also will combine the use of Forskolin and antibiotics.

Abraham says the treatment strategy may provide a much needed new and effective approach for treating urinary tract infections, because constant antibiotic use has many drawbacks, including expense, possible liver and kidney damage and the potential for creating strains of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=23272

* Grapefruit Seed Extract, liquid, 15drops 3x/day (or 5-6drops 3x/day if triple strength)

* Iodoral, 12.5mg, 1 pill per day in the morning


You may also consider a natural antibiotic that contains well known anti-bacterial herbs. Ask me if you would like a specific recommendation.


- Vitamin C, up to 15g/day


**Take away from probiotics!!!

Avoid Sugar




That should do it.

[kismet]

Kismet,

It's abit confusing. I figured that she gets no sunlight whatsoever, it may be a seriously lacking immunity factor. The most serious issue from high dosages I guess (from my reading mostly on this forum) is D redistribution of calcium to the organs w/o vit K in the mix. Warfarin also has a calcification factor I've read about. I'm really paranoid about that stuff long term. I think I will ask her to test for D ASAP so at least we have a baseline.

You could have her add 45mcg MK-7 as it presumably does not counteract warfarin at that dose, nonetheless first you should talk to her doctor.

I noticed the baseline level in the failed vitamin D RCT was 25ng/ml, which is pretty high and the levels only increased by 10ng/ml. I think it's possible that 25ng/ml is close to the threshold level, or that diminishing effects set in at higher doses and the study was too small to detect efficacy. Considering that <<20ng/ml are regularly seen in Winter, I think we need another RCT.

[Mixter]

Most crucially, DHEA, and a high dose, which is IMO a must with Lupus.

EPA/DHA rich fish oil.
ECGC rich green tea extract.

Less for the infection and more to get lupus-related inflammation values down: curcumin, ideally the highly bioavailable BCM95 curcumin.

Be advised that most supplements including the latter two will interfere with anticoagulation treatment.
If you have a supportive physician, coordinate it with him. If you don't have one, your mom must have
at least bi-weekly checks of the coumadin therapy by measuring INR. The doc will then automatically adjust
the therapy. Hence, you can introduce 1-2 supplements at a time, always a few days before each INR measurement.

PS: LEF has a protocol on Lupus: http://www.lef.org/p...nt/lupus_01.htm

Edited by mixter, 16 April 2009 - 07:03 PM.

[athrahasis]

K10,

Thanks.

She's on Ernapatem now, and it's barely working. I heard lactoferrin is synergistic with antibiotics, but her doctor is very conservative, and wont let her take any.

What dosages of D-mannose and Forskolin are you thinking (given her weight etc)? Interesting about the Grapefruit Seed Extract, I'll look into it further. Whats the idea behind Iodoral?

You may also consider a natural antibiotic that contains well known anti-bacterial herbs. Ask me if you would like a specific recommendation.

Please!

Vitamin C, up to 15g/day

Wow that is 3x what I was thinking.

**Take away from probiotics!!!

Why?

Avoid Sugar

Hard to do, but D-mannose does help in that department right?

Edited by athrahasis, 16 April 2009 - 10:11 PM.

[athrahasis]

You could have her add 45mcg MK-7 as it presumably does not counteract warfarin at that dose, nonetheless first you should talk to her doctor.

Kismet, can you link me to some studies? Her doctor has literally yelled at me for even suggesting something like this.

I noticed the baseline level in the failed vitamin D RCT was 25ng/ml, which is pretty high and the levels only increased by 10ng/ml. I think it's possible that 25ng/ml is close to the threshold level, or that diminishing effects set in at higher doses and the study was too small to detect efficacy. Considering that <<20ng/ml are regularly seen in Winter, I think we need another RCT.

Interesting, thanks for the follow up.

Edited by athrahasis, 16 April 2009 - 09:56 PM.

[athrahasis]

Most crucially, DHEA, and a high dose, which is IMO a must with Lupus.

EPA/DHA rich fish oil.
ECGC rich green tea extract.

Less for the infection and more to get lupus-related inflammation values down: curcumin, ideally the highly bioavailable BCM95 curcumin.

Be advised that most supplements including the latter two will interfere with anticoagulation treatment.
If you have a supportive physician, coordinate it with him. If you don't have one, your mom must have
at least bi-weekly checks of the coumadin therapy by measuring INR. The doc will then automatically adjust
the therapy. Hence, you can introduce 1-2 supplements at a time, always a few days before each INR measurement.

PS: LEF has a protocol on Lupus: http://www.lef.org/p...nt/lupus_01.htm

Thanks Mixter.

I will try to get her on Curcumin. She's on and off of Predisone (5mg every other day), and that is pretty ruinous long term (like Warfarin). BCM95 works well without peperine correct? The accelerator may be dangerous w/ her other meds. I'm generally concerned about blunting or amplifying her warferin... she nearly died once from a small (and accidental) overdose.

And yeah, as you mention it, it's difficult to integrate those latter two without impact to INR. I'm actually looking for a cheap and accurate INR tester. Once we have it I can have her work in the Fish oil (EPA > DHA or vice versa?)

Whats your reasoning on DHEA?

On the LEF site (thanks) I also found this reference:
http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-107.shtml

Interesting about them also recommending pro-biotics. I wonder how much gets to the kidneys though being ingested.

[Matt]

http://www.d-mannoseworks.com/

D MANNOSE will very likely clear it, if it's E coli. Even some urologists are recommending it now as well. You said that D mannose has become less effective? I'm surprised by this because there is no real reason mechanism by which bacteria can become resistant to such treatment.

Lactoferrin + EGCG (green tea) will be a good combination with Amoxicillin. EGCG and Lactoferrin will help clear infection faster, the EGCG can prevent B lactamases, it also acts by an anti folate mechanism, inhibits DNA Gyrase of bacterial. Once the cell wall is disrupted by the amox then EGCG can get better access to kill bacteria at lower concentrations. In some cases green tea can even reverse resistance to antibiotics.

Green Tea Boosts Antibiotics for Superbugs
http://www.bio-medic...erbugs-15533-1/

A couple examples here of how lactoferrin is synergistic with antibiotics for other strains. But E coli is inhibited by Lactoferrin also.
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=21100

Lactoferrin Update
http://www.lef.org/m...port_lacto.html

"The study found that the mice getting the lactoferrin as 2% of calories reduced kidney infections by 40% to 60%, and reduced bacterial counts 5-to-12 fold. They concluded, “The results suggest a potential for the use of lactoferrin as natural anti-bacterial proteins for preventing bacterial infections.”

Compound In Broccoli Could Boost Immune System, Says Study
http://www.scienceda...70820175422.htm

Edited by Matt, 16 April 2009 - 11:22 PM.

[kismet]

You could have her add 45mcg MK-7 as it presumably does not counteract warfarin at that dose, nonetheless first you should talk to her doctor.

Kismet, can you link me to some studies? Her doctor has literally yelled at me for even suggesting something like this.

I'll look them up, I think I've read something to that effect and it's written on the label of the nattopharm menaq7 products (they can hardly launch products that kill people). 
"Present studies show that 45 mcg of MK-7 from MenaQ7® daily is not likely to interfere with blood-thinning medicines.42 However, individuals using warfarin/coumarins should consult their physicians regarding the simultaneous use of vitamin K rich foods or supplements." (ok, I'm disappointed their reference is: Unpublished clinical studies, NattoPharma. On file.)
I'll search pubmed tomorrow, for now you have to make do with my excellent (*self-praise*) knowledge about rodent metabolism:
One shouldn't forget that vitamin K1 is preferably used for activation of clotting factors in the liver, while K2 is used in the vasculature. The impressive WVK model of calcification is based on this very fact. Rats are given high doses of warfarin *and* vitamin K1 (so the poor rodents don't die from internal bleeding!) and then you wait until an impressive vascular calcification phenotype develops.

Therefore vitamin K2 is much less likely to counteract the blood-thinning effects, but it may counteract its effects (which are pretty nasty going by the early data we have) on the vasculature.

Edited by kismet, 17 April 2009 - 12:57 AM.

[krillin]

You could have her add 45mcg MK-7 as it presumably does not counteract warfarin at that dose, nonetheless first you should talk to her doctor.

Kismet, can you link me to some studies? Her doctor has literally yelled at me for even suggesting something like this.

K2 does interfere with Warfarin, but if you take the same dose every day, the Warfarin dose can be titrated counteract it. So you end up with high K2 and high Warfarin, which leads to greater stability of INR because day-to-day vitamin K variation is so much lower.

Curr Opin Hematol. 2008 Sep;15(5):504-8.
Vitamin K supplementation to decrease variability of International Normalized Ratio in patients on vitamin K antagonists: a literature review.
Ford SK, Moll S.
Department of Pharmacy, University of North Carolina Hospitals, USA.

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: Many patients treated with vitamin K antagonists have unstable International Normalized Ratios (INRs), increasing the risk of thrombosis and bleeding events. Changes in dietary vitamin K intake are known to lead to INR variability. Therefore, it has been hypothesized that providing stable intake of vitamin K through daily supplementation may lead to decreased INR variability. RECENT FINDINGS: Four studies - one retrospective and three prospective - have examined the effects of vitamin K supplementation on INR variability. The results of one retrospective study and two prospective studies of vitamin K1 supplementation (with doses ranging from 100 to 500 mug daily) in patients with a history of unstable INRs indicate that vitamin K supplementation may stabilize INRs, although the success varies among patients. Another prospective study of patients in a general anticoagulation clinic examined the effects of vitamin K1 100 mug daily on INR variability and found no difference in the time in the therapeutic range in patients randomized to vitamin K compared with placebo. SUMMARY: Vitamin K supplementation may decrease variability of INRs in patients with a history of unstable INRs. Further studies are needed in larger populations to clarify the true effects of vitamin K supplementation.

PMID: 18695375

[Mixter]

> BCM95 works well without peperine correct?

Correct. And, it also influences INR...

Something else important regarding the INR. If someone on anticoagulants slowly introduced supplements, they must be taken very regularly. Coumadin will affect coagulation long-term, with an offset and duration of each some hours to a few days. Most other stuff will immediately influence coagulation, and many supps are also (slightly) anticoagulative. So it's important not to stop or change any supp rapidly. The INR testing really should be done by a doctor or at an inpatient clinic, it really needs to be correct. Dunno about US healthcare, but if biweekly INR checks by a professional are not guaranteed, this is just risking the patient's life/health. A viable alternative to coumadin may be aspirin, high-dose fish oil or PTX (pentoxifylline), btw (but only under a physician's full guidance).

> Whats your reasoning on DHEA?

It's deficient in most autoimmune cases. And it boosts the immune system (infection resistance) but also normalizes it (less inflammatory interleukines and cytokines which are the major damaging factor in autoimmune disease, and slightly better humoral/specific responses)... see e.g.:

http://autoimmunedis...in_autoimmunity
http://www.cochrane....n/ab005114.html
http://www.drugs.com...upus-49966.html
Also, I should mention there's a controversy about this option: http://articles.webr..._Treatment.html

Good luck with everything...

[FunkOdyssey]

A couple examples here of how lactoferrin is synergistic with antibiotics for other strains. But E coli is inhibited by Lactoferrin also.
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=21100

Lactoferrin Update
http://www.lef.org/m...port_lacto.html

"The study found that the mice getting the lactoferrin as 2% of calories reduced kidney infections by 40% to 60%, and reduced bacterial counts 5-to-12 fold. They concluded, “The results suggest a potential for the use of lactoferrin as natural anti-bacterial proteins for preventing bacterial infections.”

Is Jarrow's lactoferrin the iron-depleted apolactoferrin type? I ask because it is half the price of the LEF product, but whereas LEF goes to great lengths to emphasis its product as apolactoferrin, Jarrow simply states lactoferrin.

[athrahasis]

Thanks Guys, I have a lot to follow up on. I think it's essential to get her an INR tester. There is also the short term concern and long term maintenance. I will try to address the infection first with the recommendations(And try to find a more amenable doctor), then once stabilized we will purchase a tester see how close it is in results to blood work, and if close enough begin to work in the long term strategy to mitigate warfarin intake and neurodegeneration caused by my Moms auto immune disease. I really appreciate the help. Thank you.

[sentrysnipe]

How's your mom doing now?

Might also want to try Curcumin + Jarrow cran-clearance.

There's a recent study on D-Mannose debunking its anti-adherence claim funded by Theralogix.
http://www.theralogi...nose-poster.pdf
http://www.fasebj.or...bstracts/702.32

I'd like to believe otherwise though.

[sentrysnipe]

edit: The Theralogix sponsored study had *inconclusive* results, plus the lady who did the study is some cranberry research institute person. I don't know if those two count as conflicts of interest.

Also, taking Vitamin C and Lactoferrin concurrently may be counterproductive. One is an iron ruster, the other is a chelator.

Edited by sentrysnipe, 08 December 2009 - 07:25 PM.

[Matt]

My sister cured her UTI with D mannose that I gave her. D mannose also worked for me when I had bladder issue. Anecdotal of course... xD I also recommended it to 2 other people and they cured their UTI with it.

[sentrysnipe]

My sister cured her UTI with D mannose that I gave her. D mannose also worked for me when I had bladder issue. Anecdotal of course... xD I also recommended it to 2 other people and they cured their UTI with it.

Hey, Matt, how much did you take and how often? Do you take it with empty stomach? Were you also on cranberry supplements and/or antibiotics while on it? Thanks!

[stephen_b]

Is Jarrow's lactoferrin the iron-depleted apolactoferrin type? I ask because it is half the price of the LEF product, but whereas LEF goes to great lengths to emphasis its product as apolactoferrin, Jarrow simply states lactoferrin.

Don't think so. LEF uses Bioferrin®, and judging by the price Jarrow doesn't.

[FunkOdyssey]

A couple examples here of how lactoferrin is synergistic with antibiotics for other strains. But E coli is inhibited by Lactoferrin also.
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=21100

Lactoferrin Update
http://www.lef.org/m...port_lacto.html

"The study found that the mice getting the lactoferrin as 2% of calories reduced kidney infections by 40% to 60%, and reduced bacterial counts 5-to-12 fold. They concluded, “The results suggest a potential for the use of lactoferrin as natural anti-bacterial proteins for preventing bacterial infections.”

Is Jarrow's lactoferrin the iron-depleted apolactoferrin type? I ask because it is half the price of the LEF product, but whereas LEF goes to great lengths to emphasis its product as apolactoferrin, Jarrow simply states lactoferrin.

I'm starting to think this question is irrelevant for most purposes, because according to this source: Lactoferrin as an ingredient in infant formula

Taking the molecular weights
of lactoferrin and iron into account
(80,000 and 56 Daltons
respectively), this means that 1g
lactoferrin can bind 1.4mg iron.

I thought this figure was surprisingly small, and that assumes it was fully saturated. If I recall correctly, bovine lactoferrin is typically around 18% saturated (cannot remember source), which would provide only 250mcg of iron per gram of lactoferrin. Hopefully someone will provide a reference or correct me.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 January 2010 - 08:17 PM.

[athrahasis]

My sister cured her UTI with D mannose that I gave her. D mannose also worked for me when I had bladder issue. Anecdotal of course... xD I also recommended it to 2 other people and they cured their UTI with it.

The problem it seems with D Mannose is that it's effective only against a certain type of bacteria. I'll post the results from my moms travails if anyone is interested in this per se.

[athrahasis]

Thank you all BTW for following up and keeping this tread alive. So right now the strategy is two fold:

1. raising the immunity generally to fight off ongoing UTI infections and 2. carefully navigating the systemic lupus.

On the UTI side, she still gets infections and getting effective anti-biotics is becoming more and more problematic. The infections are rarer. Partially we've tackled it procedurally: a. making sure that she drinks a lot and [even manually] vacates her bladder proactively; b. increased vit d3 to 6k daily; c administration of corn silk and hibiscus teas which work on/off (perhaps placibo). She lost too much iron with Lactoferrin (near anemia believe it or not) and Epicor didnt seem to do the trick at all and was too expensive to keep on trying. We mega dosed with both; especially the lactoferrin since it can be anti-biotic synergistic.

The mega doses and variety of antibiotics have wrecked havok on her diatery track. She has intermittent constipation and diarrhea. The MDs have diagnosed a bunch of stuff from IBS to Celiac, to Lupus advancing to much more weirder stuff. Her dietitian thinks its the antibiotics courses. I agree.

The Vit D seems to be the biggest winner thus far. The problem is calcification as mentioned up thread + she takes warfarin so its a double wammy. I'm having her start on a low dose (45microgms) of K2 7. Not sure what the effect will be on the INR, but we will find out. We bought an INR scanner, and boy.. it's expensive and not really as sensitive as we'd like it (about 80% average accurate of blood tests via lab).

Thinking about introducing golden seal and olive leaf extract for the infections as well as a prebiotic (Inulin probably) to complement the probiotics she takes.

I'm also debating with myself to try to convince her to go heavy on the fats to starve the infections, namely less sugar in the track the less there is chance of infection. But if she does in fact have IBS (and if you are immune compromised like her (and at least I'm susceptible to it based on 23andme results.. not sure if she is) then I'm not sure that is wise, since that may make it worse...) they recommend high fiber to combat it.

Any suggestions?

Edited by athrahasis, 08 January 2010 - 06:01 AM.

[sentrysnipe]

Hi thanks for updating. I was a bit worried about her case.

Have you explored on Oregano Oil (carvacrol)? It is indicated in pyelonephritis, one form of which includes upper kidney infection.

Beta Glucan is also a great immune booster. This activates/potentiates dormant neutrophils and send them to the infected site.

edit:
oregano oil must be standardized to contain at least 55% carvacrol like Now Foods.
Beta Glucan at least 75% per pill like Life Source WGP or Transfer Point.

Edited by sentrysnipe, 08 January 2010 - 06:17 AM.

[athrahasis]

Hi thanks for updating. I was a bit worried about her case.

Have you explored on Oregano Oil (carvacrol)? It is indicated in pyelonephritis, one form of which includes upper kidney infection.

Beta Glucan is also a great immune booster. This activates/potentiates dormant neutrophils and send them to the infected site.

edit:
oregano oil must be standardized to contain at least 55% carvacrol like Now Foods.
Beta Glucan at least 75% per pill like Life Source WGP or Transfer Point.

Thanks sentrysnipe,

Do you mean gluco polysacccharide (Beta-1,3 / 1,6 D-Gluca) as derived from mushrooms not the 1,4 derived from oats etc right? Do you think it will be substantially more effective than Epicor? I always assumed the action is pretty much along the same pathways...wrongly? Epicor was a disappointment for us.


The oragano oil seams interesting for sure, my worry is the warfarin interaction-namely k1 properties of the oil. Is the oil pretty much devoid of k unlike oregano proper?

[sentrysnipe]

Hi thanks for updating. I was a bit worried about her case.

Have you explored on Oregano Oil (carvacrol)? It is indicated in pyelonephritis, one form of which includes upper kidney infection.

Beta Glucan is also a great immune booster. This activates/potentiates dormant neutrophils and send them to the infected site.

edit:
oregano oil must be standardized to contain at least 55% carvacrol like Now Foods.
Beta Glucan at least 75% per pill like Life Source WGP or Transfer Point.

Thanks sentrysnipe,

Do you mean gluco polysacccharide (Beta-1,3 / 1,6 D-Gluca) as derived from mushrooms not the 1,4 derived from oats etc right? Do you think it will be substantially more effective than Epicor? I always assumed the action is pretty much along the same pathways...wrongly? Epicor was a disappointment for us.


The oragano oil seams interesting for sure, my worry is the warfarin interaction-namely k1 properties of the oil. Is the oil pretty much devoid of k unlike oregano proper?

EpiCor is inferior to Beta Glucan. It's a proprietary prep of small amounts of glucan + Ig's.

I wasn't referring to the mushrooms but Baker's Yeast extract of 1,3/1,6. the baker's yeast derived molecule outweighs the mushroom extract based on the jana study

http://www.transferp...007-Hilites.pdf
http://www.transferp...ech-Hilites.pdf
http://www.transferp...df/JANA2008.pdf
http://www.transferp...Topic=education

I am not entirely sure about oregano oil's interaction and contraindications other than its potential anti-hypertensive effects. I did a search on oregano oil and warfarin/blood thinners awhile back and but nothing turned up.