145 replies to this topic

[caston]

I've just been reading the news reports about the swine flu outbreak.

http://www.ynetnews....3706143,00.html

I was wondering what anti-viral supplements would be recommended to help your body defend against influneza in general.


Thanks,

Chris

[abelard lindsay]

Ok Here Comes Some Wild Assed Speculation.....

Well I think the lethality is due to the cytokine storm induced by the flu, not the flu itself.

The illness acts quickly and has led to death in Mexico within five days, she said, adding among those who died were healthy young people between the ages of 20 to 44.

http://en.wikipedia....pandemic_deaths

It is believed that cytokine storms were responsible for many of the deaths during the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed a disproportionate number of young adults.[1] In this case, a healthy immune system may have been a liability rather than an asset. Preliminary research results from Hong Kong also indicated this as the probable reason for many deaths during the SARS epidemic in 2003.[citation needed] Human deaths from the bird flu H5N1 usually involve cytokine storms as well.[citation needed]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18639629

Brain acetylcholinesterase activity controls systemic cytokine levels through the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway.
Pavlov VA, Parrish WR, Rosas-Ballina M, Ochani M, Puerta M, Ochani K, Chavan S, Al-Abed Y, Tracey KJ.

Laboratory of Biomedical Science, The Feinstein Institute for Medical Research, 350 Community Drive, Manhasset, NY 11030, USA. vpavlov@nshs.edu

The excessive release of cytokines by the immune system contributes importantly to the pathogenesis of inflammatory diseases. Recent advances in understanding the biology of cytokine toxicity led to the discovery of the "cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway," defined as neural signals transmitted via the vagus nerve that inhibit cytokine release through a mechanism that requires the alpha7 subunit-containing nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (alpha7nAChR). Vagus nerve regulation of peripheral functions is controlled by brain nuclei and neural networks, but despite considerable importance, little is known about the molecular basis for central regulation of the vagus nerve-based cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway. Here we report that brain acetylcholinesterase activity controls systemic and organ specific TNF production during endotoxemia. Peripheral administration of the acetylcholinesterase inhibitor galantamine significantly reduced serum TNF levels through vagus nerve signaling, and protected against lethality during murine endotoxemia. Administration of a centrally-acting muscarinic receptor antagonist abolished the suppression of TNF by galantamine, indicating that suppressing acetylcholinesterase activity, coupled with central muscarinic receptors, controls peripheral cytokine responses. Administration of galantamine to alpha7nAChR knockout mice failed to suppress TNF levels, indicating that the alpha7nAChR-mediated cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway is required for the anti-inflammatory effect of galantamine. These findings show that inhibition of brain acetylcholinesterase suppresses systemic inflammation through a central muscarinic receptor-mediated and vagal- and alpha7nAChR-dependent mechanism. Our data also indicate that a clinically used centrally-acting acetylcholinesterase inhibitor can be utilized to suppress abnormal inflammation to therapeutic advantage.

Galantamine anyone?

[Mixter]

You have very poor chances of improving your outcome once infected with something that induces a reaction as bad as this swine flu.

Sure, antivirals like tamiflu, ECGC, zinc, lactoferrin, DHEA and strong inflammation inhibitors (umm, but NOT the mild stuff like galantamine, NSAIDs or fish oil, more like a COX-2 inhibitor and anti-TNF strategies like Enbrel and Infliximab would be warranted!).

Boost your immune system to prevent infection is the only reliable option. High vitamin D status is correlated with practically zero incidence of flu in the first place: http://www.lef.org/m...vitamind_02.htm Also, high protein intake, exercise, >7h sleep etc, etc.

Also, a normal influenza is not nice either, if you have the normal flu you'll definitely not get around noticing that something serious is wrong with you. So, get the Vitamin D above 70ng/ml or so.

[advancedatheist]

Has anyone had the dream about the old black lady in the cornfield yet?

[Matt]

oh wonderful... lol. Just seen this on the news now, human to human transmission too...

I probably going to order a few supplements to boost immune system.

Vitamin D3
EGCG
Resveratrol
Lactoferrin
Whey protein
DIM (might be a good anti viral + immune system booster, it's found in things like kale, brussel sprouts, broccoli etc)
Beta glucans?
Allimax or fresh crushed garlic (double placebo controlled trial showed effective for colds, not sure data on flu though).
Quercetin for Flu? http://www.scienceda...80903080858.htm

I have nanomasks that I wouldnt be afraid to use if needed LOL.

[the big b]

Has anyone had the dream about the old black lady in the cornfield yet?

In my dreams a strange man named Flagg is calling me to Las Vegas...

Really though, how much can supplementation help against a potential pandemic? I mean a healthy immune system is great, but without true immunity you would be bound to catch it eventually. Though I did read that Anne Schuchat, director of CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said that the virus was resistant to amantadine and rimantadine, but susceptible to oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and zanamivir (Relenza).

[kismet]

Really though, how much can supplementation help against a potential pandemic?

More than not-supplementing if done correctly and if those supps work to begin with, but improved survival is good enough..

I mean a healthy immune system is great,

I'm assuming it could be the other way round if it kills you via a cytokine storm. Then again, some of those supps do not necessarily work via increased immune responses.

but without true immunity you would be bound to catch it eventually.

So what? There is no "true immunity ™" to the flu anyway, not even using those meds:

amantadine and rimantadine, but susceptible to oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and zanamivir (Relenza).

Edited by kismet, 25 April 2009 - 07:58 PM.

[Mind]

At the risk of revealing and being embarrassed by my anti-establishment vigor of a few years ago:

SARS anyone?
Bird Flu anyone?
West Nile Virus anyone?

It was said that if SARS ever left the far east (or wherever it was first reported) that it would make the 1918 pandemic look like child's play. It did spread, but here we are 6 years later. Many of you probably also remember the immense hysteria that developed in the U.S. over the substantially non-lethal West Nile Virus.

I realize the danger in the "super bug" scenario, but I have also been alive long enough to have seen innumerable waves of media-generated "super bug" hysteria. Is the swine flu the one? I don't know. But what I do know is that open discussions on how best to combat new viruses, like this one here, are better than cowering in fear and quarantining every city in the world. The more we learn about the immune system and how we live in balance with the viral and bacterial ecosystems - most of the time - the sooner we will be able to develop newer more effective strategies for keeping people alive.

[lynx]

cimetidine

[the big b]

I'm not a virologist, so knowledge is very limited, rendering a lot of my comments rather worthless.

More than not-supplementing if done correctly and if those supps work to begin with, but improved survival is good enough..

I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't try to supplement, just that if it is indeed a pandemic, it might take more than the supplements we currently have at our disposal to really make a noticeable impact. We could improve our chances of survival through an untested hypothetical supplementation regimen, but if this indeed similar to the Spanish Flu of 1918 with 20% of the world population infected, it's going to be difficult to prevent infection.

I'm assuming it could be the other way round if it kills you via a cytokine storm. Then again, some of those supps do not necessarily work via increased immune responses.

So we are looking at treatments that apply to a cytokine storm?

According to Wikipedia those include:
-OX40 IG
-ACE inhibitors and Angiotensin II Receptor Blockers
-Corticosteroids
-Free radical scavengers
-TNF-alpha blockers

I need to look more into this, as I am unfamiliar.

So what? There is no "true immunity ™" to the flu anyway, not even using those meds: amantadine and rimantadine, but susceptible to oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and zanamivir (Relenza).

I should have been more clear, I ment you can have a healthy immune system, but unless you have a natural immunity to it, which no one does, you are very likely to be infected if 1 in 5 people have it. I simply added that last sentence because I wanted to point out that atleast the virus is susceptible to Tamiflu and Relenza, hopefully making the risk of a pandemic less likely.

[Fightflu]

There's an interesting article about supplements and swine flu here. Apparently vitamin D, elderberry, and selenium are where it's at.

[Matt]

I've been following the news on this. It's interesting that suspected cases in ameica there hasn't been any mortality as of yet, whereas in mexico there has been. Is this because of previous vaccinations to a previous human flu strain? But then isn't this the wrong health group because in NYC they were kids that came down with it after a trip from Mexico. Any ideas why the same flu is having a different mortality rate so far between mexico and the U.S

Edited by Matt, 25 April 2009 - 11:06 PM.

[Matt]

Heres an article on possible differences

http://www.npr.org/t...oryId=103496876

"—Genetic analysis of virus samples in the two countries is continuing. The CDC says tests results show the U.S. and Mexican viruses are essentially the same, but some experts have not ruled out the possibility that the virus is changing as it leaks across the border to the north.

—Perhaps nutrition levels are worse in some Mexican communities — poor nutrition can degrade a person's immune defenses, and make them more susceptible to illness.

—Air quality in Mexico City is considered terrible. That too may have affect patients confronted with a novel respiratory disease.

—Access to medical care has been an issue in Asia, where a rare bird flu — which does not spread easily from person-to-person — has killed more than 200 over the last several years. Maybe Mexican patients have also had trouble getting medical care or antiviral drugs, some have speculated — even though the government provides health care.

All that is speculation at this point.

"The question of why the virus appears to be more virulent in Mexico is one that we are looking intensively into," the CDC's Schuchat said. "Rather than speculate, it's important for the science to lead us on this.""

[abelard lindsay]

I think you guys don't get what I posted about Galantamine. Please read the study above and look up words if you don't know what they mean.

If you got the regular flu it wouldn't be useful at all but a superflu like this is different because of the cytokine storm effects of the virus on healthy people! The point of Galantamine is to suppress the cytokine storm via modulation of the cholinergic system. So in the study above they used galantamine to calm the immune system down via the vagus nerve/cholinergic system so it doesn't kill you trying to save you from the virus by producing excess TNF. I don't know of a better acetylcholine-interase inhibitor than galantamine prescription or otherwise.

[Mind]

Scientists close in on universal flu vaccine

They have discovered anti-bodies that neutralise multiple strains of the influenza virus, and a so-called "pan-therapy" or broad-spectrum vaccine could be just five years away.

The findings have been published in Nature Magazine.

Dr Robert Liddington from the Burnham Institute in California says researchers gave mice lethal doses of the H5N1 bird flu, then injected them with the antibodies.

"We were surprised and actually delighted to find that these antibodies also neutralised a majority of other influenza viruses including most of the regular seasonal flus," Dr Liddington said.

[maxwatt]

Tamiflu is derived from Chinese Star Anise. I would not rely on it, though if nothing else is available it might help.

Resveratrol inhibits TNF-alpha

What is disturbing about this strain is its similarity to the 1918 strain: it is fatal for young, healthy adults and not the young and aged, normally the most vulnerable. The healthier immune system kills, whereas a weaker immune system lets the flu victim survive.

Edited by maxwatt, 26 April 2009 - 01:44 AM.

[Dmitri]

I'm not a virologist, so knowledge is very limited, rendering a lot of my comments rather worthless.

So we are looking at treatments that apply to a cytokine storm?

According to Wikipedia those include:
-OX40 IG
-ACE inhibitors and Angiotensin II Receptor Blockers
-Corticosteroids
-Free radical scavengers
-TNF-alpha blockers

I need to look more into this, as I am unfamiliar.

I'm currently using a corticosteroid (Nasonex) a was given a puppy 2 weeks ago, but sadly it appears I'm allergic to it so my doctor prescribed it. Anyway, does this mean I'm less likely to have a cytokine storm?

[niner]

Any ideas why the same flu is having a different mortality rate so far between mexico and the U.S

Because the US victims were kids? As Maxwatt mentions above, this virus, like the 1918 pandemic flu, hits young adults hardest.

[Dmitri]

At the risk of revealing and being embarrassed by my anti-establishment vigor of a few years ago:

SARS anyone?
Bird Flu anyone?
West Nile Virus anyone?

It was said that if SARS ever left the far east (or wherever it was first reported) that it would make the 1918 pandemic look like child's play. It did spread, but here we are 6 years later. Many of you probably also remember the immense hysteria that developed in the U.S. over the substantially non-lethal West Nile Virus.

I realize the danger in the "super bug" scenario, but I have also been alive long enough to have seen innumerable waves of media-generated "super bug" hysteria. Is the swine flu the one? I don't know. But what I do know is that open discussions on how best to combat new viruses, like this one here, are better than cowering in fear and quarantining every city in the world. The more we learn about the immune system and how we live in balance with the viral and bacterial ecosystems - most of the time - the sooner we will be able to develop newer more effective strategies for keeping people alive.

Well, 70+ people in Mexico are dead and everyday you have new infections, so I wouldn't consider quarantine a sign of being a coward they're taking precautions to stop the disease from spreading. I think it's important to have the discussions you mention but I think it's more important to contain it. For all we know those other viruses you mentioned probably did not spread thanks to the health authorities doing a great job of containing them within the borders or regions where they flourished?

[niner]

I'm currently using a corticosteroid (Nasonex) a was given a puppy 2 weeks ago, but sadly it appears I'm allergic to it so my doctor prescribed it. Anyway, does this mean I'm less likely to have a cytokine storm?

Offhand, I'd guess that you would want about a thousand times the dose of steroid. Nasal inhalers are typically micrograms of steroids, while a systemic dose that could really knock down major inflammation would be milligrams of a prednisone-class steroid. I didn't look up the contents of Nasonex, but that's my guess.

[Dmitri]

I'm currently using a corticosteroid (Nasonex) a was given a puppy 2 weeks ago, but sadly it appears I'm allergic to it so my doctor prescribed it. Anyway, does this mean I'm less likely to have a cytokine storm?

Offhand, I'd guess that you would want about a thousand times the dose of steroid. Nasal inhalers are typically micrograms of steroids, while a systemic dose that could really knock down major inflammation would be milligrams of a prednisone-class steroid. I didn't look up the contents of Nasonex, but that's my guess.

I see, and you're right I only take about 200 mcg of Nasonex, 400 mcg is the max I'm allowed to take. It was quite effective though it worked within hours and according to the label in some cases it may take two weeks to show any benefits.

[Mind]

Well, 70+ people in Mexico are dead and everyday you have new infections, so I wouldn't consider quarantine a sign of being a coward they're taking precautions to stop the disease from spreading.

Seems this strain has already spread to a few countries and passed through multiple airports.

Someone else asked why is it non-lethal in the U.S.? Two people in Kansas had it and both are now fine. Remaining alert and on the watch is fine. I expect the media will make it out worse than it will really end up. Remember that approximately 40,000 people in the U.S. and 500,000 worldwide, die every year from regular human strains of flu.

[Matt]

But the difference is mind that old people tend to die of regular Flu, this flu has killed mainly people in their 20's and 30's. The exact same thing that was seen with the Flu in 1918 for example. Although the media always plays a part in these things and making them huge news, the CDC gave some warnings the other day

[maxwatt]

Well, 70+ people in Mexico are dead and everyday you have new infections, so I wouldn't consider quarantine a sign of being a coward they're taking precautions to stop the disease from spreading.

Seems this strain has already spread to a few countries and passed through multiple airports.

Someone else asked why is it non-lethal in the U.S.? Two people in Kansas had it and both are now fine. Remaining alert and on the watch is fine. I expect the media will make it out worse than it will really end up. Remember that approximately 40,000 people in the U.S. and 500,000 worldwide, die every year from regular human strains of flu.

The Kansas couple were older, not in the vulnerable age-range. However, viruses that have jumped to a new host are extremely mutable and still rapidly mutating. They are adapting to a new host, and are in the process of striking a balance between virulence and contagion. Killing the host too quickly is a poor strategy for a virus, it will not spread and will go extinct. It is possible the virus has already adapted to its human host and now less lethal. This was the pattern seen with SARS in china. The pathogen adapts to its host, and becomes less lethal which is the usual case. In nature, sometimes a pathogen finds a way to spread by a long contagious dormancy or by being extremely contagious. With current public health practices of detection and containment, extreme virulence leads to rapid quarantine and extinction of lethal strains.

I speculate that rapid communication and quarantine methods are having an effect, and causing the virus to develop less virulence in order to survive; the milder strains out-compete the fatal ones. If we had had the WHO, the current degree of communication and the rapid containment response we are seeing now, the "Spanish Flu" of 1918 might have faded rapidly rather than becoming a pandemic.

[sjayo]

It was only a matter of time before a thread like this was started. The pandemic strains of influenza provoke an over response of the immune system, which is why teenagers and 20-year olds with the strongest immune systems are the first to die in a true pandemic. In case you didn't notice, the first to die in Mexico were the young, which is what garnered the attention and concern of the infectious disease community. So far this has not been true elsewhere, but we'll know within the next 12 days or so whether this is a genuine pandemic when it emerges on every continent.
Jay

[stayin_alive]

At the risk of revealing and being embarrassed by my anti-establishment vigor of a few years ago:

SARS anyone?
Bird Flu anyone?
West Nile Virus anyone?

It was said that if SARS ever left the far east (or wherever it was first reported) that it would make the 1918 pandemic look like child's play. It did spread, but here we are 6 years later. Many of you probably also remember the immense hysteria that developed in the U.S. over the substantially non-lethal West Nile Virus.

I realize the danger in the "super bug" scenario, but I have also been alive long enough to have seen innumerable waves of media-generated "super bug" hysteria. Is the swine flu the one? I don't know. But what I do know is that open discussions on how best to combat new viruses, like this one here, are better than cowering in fear and quarantining every city in the world. The more we learn about the immune system and how we live in balance with the viral and bacterial ecosystems - most of the time - the sooner we will be able to develop newer more effective strategies for keeping people alive.

This is one area where I think scaring the public is necessary. I say this because often unless you sensationalize something the public at large will not take it to as serious as the events dictate. Consider breast and prostate cancer. We have all these awareness programs going on and yet these things have been written about in widely distributed news for at least a decade and on TV news forever.

Anyhow, Robin Cook can be entertaining and informative.

In short, if you don't sensationalize these kinds of things, the public will not take it seriously. Even now a close female friend in her years laughs off the concern. Her statement is the news sensationalizes everything, yes there is reason for concern, but I'm going to live my life.

We live in Houston....

Edited by stayin_alive, 26 April 2009 - 05:50 PM.

[Dmitri]

Well, 70+ people in Mexico are dead and everyday you have new infections, so I wouldn't consider quarantine a sign of being a coward they're taking precautions to stop the disease from spreading.

Seems this strain has already spread to a few countries and passed through multiple airports.

Someone else asked why is it non-lethal in the U.S.? Two people in Kansas had it and both are now fine. Remaining alert and on the watch is fine. I expect the media will make it out worse than it will really end up. Remember that approximately 40,000 people in the U.S. and 500,000 worldwide, die every year from regular human strains of flu.

The Kansas couple were older, not in the vulnerable age-range. However, viruses that have jumped to a new host are extremely mutable and still rapidly mutating. They are adapting to a new host, and are in the process of striking a balance between virulence and contagion. Killing the host too quickly is a poor strategy for a virus, it will not spread and will go extinct. It is possible the virus has already adapted to its human host and now less lethal. This was the pattern seen with SARS in china. The pathogen adapts to its host, and becomes less lethal which is the usual case. In nature, sometimes a pathogen finds a way to spread by a long contagious dormancy or by being extremely contagious. With current public health practices of detection and containment, extreme virulence leads to rapid quarantine and extinction of lethal strains.

I speculate that rapid communication and quarantine methods are having an effect, and causing the virus to develop less virulence in order to survive; the milder strains out-compete the fatal ones. If we had had the WHO, the current degree of communication and the rapid containment response we are seeing now, the "Spanish Flu" of 1918 might have faded rapidly rather than becoming a pandemic.

Now they're reporting suspected cases in France, New Zealand, Spain; all are from people who traveled to Mexico.

[rwac]

Now they're reporting suspected cases in France, New Zealand, Spain; all are from people who traveled to Mexico.

H1N1 Swine Flu - Google Maps

http://maps.google.c...amp...281&z=5);

[biknut]

In light of the Swine flu epidemic I've switched over to my anti Swine flu regimen. 750 iu of D3 a day. Up from 500. I'll let you know how it works out.

[Dmitri]

Now they're reporting suspected cases in France, New Zealand, Spain; all are from people who traveled to Mexico.

H1N1 Swine Flu - Google Maps

http://maps.google.c...amp...281&z=5);

Woah! now it's even suspected in England.