145 replies to this topic

[russianBEAR]

As a person who is a member of the media (television), I believe that Swine flu is a medical falsification designed to gather large amounts of money from unsuspecting people buying low-quality vaccines.

But what do I know if there are reported cases right ?

[Matt]

I'll get the source later but it's been reported that so far half the deaths from Swine flu have been in healthy young people teens to early 20's.

Edit:

Still, about half of the people who have died from swine flu were previously young and healthy — people who are not usually susceptible to flu.

http://www.thejakart...t-41-years.html

Edited by Matt, 13 June 2009 - 12:58 PM.

[Athanasios]

Dmitri, they already have a vaccine as of this week. They won't have enough but it should help of there is a problem.

I agree with Matt. If it hits, it will be the following flu season.

The past deadly flu strains, like 1918, would cause your immune system to attack itself. XKCD had a funny comic saying that you should get drunk, smoke cigs, and stay up all night to weaken your immune system so swine flu won't be as bad if you catch it, ha!

I am still going the vit D, green tea, adaptogens, melatonin, xylitol, reduced stress, and moderate excersise route. If I get sick, I will be using NAC.

[Mind]

I am still not worried. According to latest WHO statements, the strain is very mild - weaker than what comes around during most flu seasons. Also, I think they are going about it all the wrong way. If it is a very mild strain of the flu, they should let it propagate so most people pick up immunity...during the summer when most people easily battle the flu and colds.

The human immune system is the most powerful well tuned flu fighting machine on the planet. Let it do its work. Also, let our "social immune system" pick up immunity. The less we let it this very mild strain spread, the more we will have to spend on vaccines, or the more vulnerable we will be when a stronger form of the swine flu comes around. Save the vaccines for those who really need it.

The death rate from this strain is now well under 1% and going lower. The only person (might be two) who died in Wisconsin (the hardest hit state by the way) was already sick and in the hospital when contracting this version of the flu. I can't believe how the hysteria got so out of hand. It is a lesson of how instant communication and social networking sites amplify human fears, in my view.

[tham]

It's likely a variant of the Nipah virus.

http://en.wikipedia....rus#Nipah_virus

http://www.medicalne...ticles/7545.php


Selenium is the key to these emerging mutations of RNA viruses.

http://flutrackers.c...ead.php?p=29622

[JLL]

Dmitri, they already have a vaccine as of this week. They won't have enough but it should help of there is a problem.

I agree with Matt. If it hits, it will be the following flu season.

The past deadly flu strains, like 1918, would cause your immune system to attack itself. XKCD had a funny comic saying that you should get drunk, smoke cigs, and stay up all night to weaken your immune system so swine flu won't be as bad if you catch it, ha!

I am still going the vit D, green tea, adaptogens, melatonin, xylitol, reduced stress, and moderate excersise route. If I get sick, I will be using NAC.

Why xylitol?

I wrote a blog post about various natural foods, the swine flu and cytokine storms a while ago when looking for more information on the subject. Here's the summary:

For the purposes of inhibiting ACE and reducing cytokines, the following foods and compounds seem to be the best choices:

• Green tea (ACE inhibitor, reduces cytokines)
• Black tea (ACE inhibitor, reduces cytokines)
• Quercetin (possible ACE inhibitor, reduces cytokines)
• Pomegranate juice (ACE inhibitor)
• Red wine (ACE inhibitor)
• Turmeric (reduces cytokines)
• Black pepper (reduces cytokines)
• Raw crushed garlic (reduces cytokines)
• Red palm oil (reduces cytokines)
• Vitamin E (reduces cytokines)
• Coconut oil (reduces cytokines)

The following foods, while beneficial in many other ways, may not be a good idea in terms of reducing cytokine levels:

• Olive oil (may increase cytokines)
• Fish oil (may increase cytokines)
• Chocolate (ACE inhibitor, increases cytokines)

In addition, it seems that vitamin D3 could be on either list, depending on the dosage. Average blood levels of vitamin D may be worse than very low or high levels.

[Dmitri]

I'll get the source later but it's been reported that so far half the deaths from Swine flu have been in healthy young people teens to early 20's.

Edit:

Still, about half of the people who have died from swine flu were previously young and healthy — people who are not usually susceptible to flu.

http://www.thejakart...t-41-years.html

But hasn't that occurred in poor countries only? There have been few deaths here in the U.S., but they all seem to be in people who had underlying conditions.

[RoadToAwe]

UK reported its first Swine flu death today. The media reports are sketchy - they say lot of flu victims had underlying conditions but we do not know if the underlying condition had any relevance to flu. 

[Matt]

A healthy doctor (GP) and a healthy young girl of 6 died from it. The girl apparently was dead within 24 hours of experiencing symptoms, so things can get bad very quickly.

At the moment they estimate the death rate is 5 per 1000 people, compared with spanish flu which was 15 per 1000. Normal seasonal flu is 1 per 1000. It will be interesting to see if the flu becomes worse in the winter months, I suspect it will because of the vitamin D issue.


I have no idea how I'm going to avoid this flu because I work in a call centre =/ Probably one of the worst places to work as its easy to pick up viruses here from keyboards, phones and stuff.


JLL, thanks for the list, Green tea also seems to have an anti viral ability against almost all types of flu tested.

Edited by Matt, 14 July 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[Matt]

I caught Swine Flu, at least I think. My mother became sick with a viral flu like illness (chest problems, cough, sore throat, aches, no appetite and feeling sick), sister also experienced similar things. My grandmother is terribly ill with a bad chest and can't breath properly, though she is thin and very frail smoker.

First of all like other people I know who were 'confirmed' as swine flu it started with an upset stomach, just zero appetite at all, about 12 hours later this progressed into aches and pains in random places around the body, especially mid to lower back sharp pains, eyes felt a little tired, then airways started to feel inflamed a bit because of the way i was breathing and sore throat was developing. It's interesting that almost every case I talked to it begins with a bad appetite and followed by a similar pattern to what I experienced. I didn't have any fever though either, whereas my mother and sister have. They're also still ill and they caught it before me.

Well anyway I have recovered already, it took about 36 hours to recover and its like I never had it in the first place. The symptom on a scale of 1-10 were about a 2 to a 3 overall and never interefed with anything other than I didn't eat all that much.

I just drank about 5 servings of whey protein (25g per serv), lots of green tea and ginger, and my green smoothies when I could stomach it.

I had an email today from work saying that others have been coming down ill with chest infections also.

The numbers of swine flu here in the UK jumped up in 1 week by 50,000 people, so it's spreading fast. Unusual for flu to spread in the summer? Anyway I don't know if I did have it, but its probable as its in my area and people i've been in contact with have cofirmed swine flu with similar symptoms. Usually the 2nd wave is worst, at least I cauight it now, maybe its a good thing.

Edited by Matt, 18 July 2009 - 08:24 PM.

[Athanasios]

Usually the 2nd wave is worst, at least I cauight it now, maybe its a good thing.

Thanks for letting us know how it went. I was thinking the same as above. If it mutates and you catch it again, it is likely that you will have partial immunity.

[Matt]

A few scoops of whey protein should give enough Lactoferrin to help.

Effects of orally administered bovine lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase on influenza virus infection in mice

Milk contains a wide variety of host protective factors against infectious microbes. Among these protective factors, lactoferrin (LF) and lactoperoxidase (LPO) have been reported to exhibit antiviral activities as well as immuno-modulatory effects. In the present study, the effects of orally administered LF and LPO were assessed in a mouse influenza virus infection model. BALB/c mice were intranasally infected with 6.6 x 102 p.f.u. of influenza virus A/PR/8/34(H1N1). Bovine LF or LPO was administered once daily at a dose of 62.5 mg per mouse by gavage, starting 1 day before infection. Mice given LF or LPO showed a significantly lower lung consolidation score on day 6 after infection compared with the control mice that were given water instead. Concurrently, the number of infiltrated leukocytes recovered from bronchoalveolar lavage fluid (BALF) on day 6 was significantly lower in mice given LF or LPO. However, the virus yield in the BALF was not affected by these treatments. The serum level of IL-6, a pro-inflammatory cytokine, positively correlated with the lung consolidation score in each group and was significantly lower on day 6 in the mice given LPO. These results suggest the potential of oral administration of LF or LPO to attenuate pneumonia in influenza-virus-infected mice through the suppression of infiltration of inflammatory cells in the lung.

[Athanasios]

Good find, Matt. I am going to up my daily supplementation on lactoferrin to 500/mg/day and triple it if I get the flu. Thanks.

[Mind]

Swine flu sweeping the world at unprecedented speed.

3rd confirmed death from swine flu in Maryland (every fatality was someone with health problems).

and?....................

How is this different than any other flu season when 40,000 people die every year in the U.S. alone. WHO confirms 426 deaths from the swine flu in the world. They have laboratory-tested 94,512 cases. The actual number of cases world-wide is speculated to be in the millions. The rate of death from this virus is barely a fraction of what "normal" flu would create. If you exclude people with health problems or immune problems, the number of deaths is a tiny tiny fraction of the mortality rate from "normal" flu. The reporting on swine flu is getting out of hand (IMHO) based on the currently available evidence.

[Boondock]

How is this different than any other flu season when 40,000 people die every year in the U.S. alone. WHO confirms 426 deaths from the swine flu in the world. They have laboratory-tested 94,512 cases. The actual number of cases world-wide is speculated to be in the millions. The rate of death from this virus is barely a fraction of what "normal" flu would create. If you exclude people with health problems or immune problems, the number of deaths is a tiny tiny fraction of the mortality rate from "normal" flu. The reporting on swine flu is getting out of hand (IMHO) based on the currently available evidence.

Spot on, I couldn't agree more. The coverage has really whipped up a storm with the public as well, who at least in the UK are swamping health services with phone calls. So far, it appears to be of a similar severity to seasonal flu. It could mutate, and it could come in a second wave in the autumn with more deadly effects. We should prepare for these eventualities, but if they do not happen there's no reason to be unduly alarmed.

[Athanasios]

and?....................

How is this different than any other flu season when 40,000 people die every year in the U.S. alone. WHO confirms 426 deaths from the swine flu in the world. They have laboratory-tested 94,512 cases. The actual number of cases world-wide is speculated to be in the millions. The rate of death from this virus is barely a fraction of what "normal" flu would create. If you exclude people with health problems or immune problems, the number of deaths is a tiny tiny fraction of the mortality rate from "normal" flu. The reporting on swine flu is getting out of hand (IMHO) based on the currently available evidence.

The WHO has now stopped reporting incident figures and is asking countries to use resources to monitor pattern and severity. They have moved away from any sensationalism and are signaling no threat unless there is a mutation in the virus that makes t deadly.

[drmz]

Nowhere else to post >

Energy restriction impairs natural killer cell function and increases the severity of influenza infection in young adult male C57BL/6 mice.

Energy restriction (ER) without malnutrition extends lifespan in mice and postpones age-related changes in immunity. However, we have previously shown that aged (22 mo old) ER mice exhibit increased mortality, impaired viral clearance, and reduced natural killer (NK) cell cytotoxicity following influenza infection compared with aged mice that consumed food ad libitum (AL). To determine whether the detrimental effects of ER in response to influenza infection occur independently of advanced age, young adult (6 mo) male C57BL/6 mice consuming an AL or ER diet were infected with influenza A virus (H1N1, PR8). Young adult ER mice exhibited increased mortality (P < 0.05) and weight loss (P < 0.01) in response to infection. ER mice exhibited decreased total (P < 0.001) and NK1.1+ lymphocytes (P < 0.05) in lung and reduced influenza-induced NK cell cytotoxicity in both lung (P < 0.01) and spleen (P < 0.05). Importantly, the mRNA expression of interferon (IFN)alpha/beta (P < 0.05) was also reduced in the lungs of ER mice in response to infection, and in vitro stimulation of NK cells from ER mice with type I IFN resulted in cytotoxicity comparable to that in NK cells from AL mice. In contrast, NK cell activation was enhanced in ER mice, determined as an increase in the percentage of NK cells expressing B220 (P < 0.001) and increased intracellular production of IFNgamma (P < 0.01). These data describe an age-independent and detrimental effect of ER on the innate immune response to influenza infection and suggest that a decrease in NK cell number and alterations in the NK cell-activating environment may contribute to decreased innate immunity in ER mic

[tham]

Selenium, Lomatium dissectum (biscuit root).

http://blog.cnt-web.com/?p=20


Lomatium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

http://www.answers.com/topic/lomatium

http://www.lomatium.com/


However, lomatium may cause a bad rash in some people.

http://www.medherb.c...ase_reports.htm


" Lomatium contains a resin that can cause a painful rash in some
people. To avoid this rash, people can use "lomatium isolates,"
which are extracts with the resins removed. The extract can be
taken at a dosage of 1-3 ml each day. In tincture form, the daily
dosage is generally 10-30 drops taken one to four times per day.
Children who are ill with colds or flu can be given lomatium capsules. "

http://findarticles..../ai_2603000493/

Edited by tham, 11 August 2009 - 05:34 PM.

[k10]

Dr. Mercola explains why NOT to get the Swine Flu Vaccine - and why it is DANAGEROUS:

Article 1:
http://articles.merc...et-Exposed.aspx

Article 2:
http://articles.merc...r-Kill-You.aspx

What happens when you mass vaccinate:
http://www.viddler.c...deos/182/6.735/

[Jay]

Dr. Mercola explains why NOT to get the Swine Flu Vaccine - and why it is DANAGEROUS:

Article 1:
http://articles.merc...et-Exposed.aspx

Article 2:
http://articles.merc...r-Kill-You.aspx

What happens when you mass vaccinate:
http://www.viddler.c...deos/182/6.735/

Might be worth also reading Google's first result when you search for squalene: http://www.who.int/v...s/en/index.html.

[VespeneGas]

Dr. Mercola explains why NOT to get the Swine Flu Vaccine - and why it is DANAGEROUS:

Article 1:
http://articles.merc...et-Exposed.aspx

Article 2:
http://articles.merc...r-Kill-You.aspx

What happens when you mass vaccinate:
http://www.viddler.c...deos/182/6.735/

http://www.scienceba...dicine.org/?p=9

There's no ethylene glycol in vaccines, and there's a minuscule amount of formaldehyde compared to our daily exposure. He's just another shameless or ignorant scare-peddler.

[Mind]

At the risk of revealing and being embarrassed by my anti-establishment vigor of a few years ago:

SARS anyone?
Bird Flu anyone?
West Nile Virus anyone?

It was said that if SARS ever left the far east (or wherever it was first reported) that it would make the 1918 pandemic look like child's play. It did spread, but here we are 6 years later. Many of you probably also remember the immense hysteria that developed in the U.S. over the substantially non-lethal West Nile Virus.

I realize the danger in the "super bug" scenario, but I have also been alive long enough to have seen innumerable waves of media-generated "super bug" hysteria. Is the swine flu the one? I don't know. But what I do know is that open discussions on how best to combat new viruses, like this one here, are better than cowering in fear and quarantining every city in the world. The more we learn about the immune system and how we live in balance with the viral and bacterial ecosystems - most of the time - the sooner we will be able to develop newer more effective strategies for keeping people alive.

I just thought I would bring this up again since the Great Swine Flu Hysteria of 2009 is subsiding. I am amazed when looking back at all the popular media articles and statements from various government health agencies. How did the story fly so out of control? I hope the CDC and such agencies learned something about the internet and transmission of memes. As I mentioned in a couple other threads about the swine flu, they need to more effectively tailor their messages and threat levels so as to reserve the highest alarm for the worst potential "superbugs" not the swine flu.

Also, I want to reiterate that I am not against vaccinations for the reasons usually stated by the anti-vaccine contingent. I am for a more nuanced approach that appreciates the lesson we should have learned from the development of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. See the "eco-system" quote from above. We live in (and some people would legitimately claim that individually we are) an ecosystem of bacteria and viruses. They are ever present in our environment and daily lives. We mostly succumb to infections when our immune system is stressed, weak, or damaged.

I am all for new technological tools and therapies to combat infectious disease including vaccines, but I fear that we have not yet reached the point where our knowledge and technology is sufficient to replace our evolutionarily designed and very powerful immune system - not to mention our social immune system - the spreading of non-lethal bacteria and viruses throughout the population in order to gain immunity. We are getting close to having the appropriate technology, but not there yet. I feel that we are at the point right now that mass vaccinations and quarantines will lead to the creation of super-viruses such has been the case with super-bacteria (MSRA). It is an ecological argument - when you knock-out all the substantially non-lethal infectious agents then you create an environment where only the super-bugs will thrive. Unless we have the tools to combat the super-bugs (tools that are more powerful than the immune system), we are asking for trouble. Thus I reiterate my suggestion that only the most vulnerable people should get vaccinations and advanced treatment while the rest of us suffer through the occasional flu or cold. Soon will will have more powerful "unnatural" tools and then I will be more comfortable with the application of such.

[niner]

I just thought I would bring this up again since the Great Swine Flu Hysteria of 2009 is subsiding. I am amazed when looking back at all the popular media articles and statements from various government health agencies. How did the story fly so out of control? I hope the CDC and such agencies learned something about the internet and transmission of memes. As I mentioned in a couple other threads about the swine flu, they need to more effectively tailor their messages and threat levels so as to reserve the highest alarm for the worst potential "superbugs" not the swine flu.

I think the "hysteria", if that's what it was, was due to the fact that we really didn't know if we had a 1918 style bug on our hands or something as normal as it turned out to be. If the government had done nothing, and it turned out to be highly lethal, then what would everyone be saying? The flu hit my neighborhood before the vaccine did, and my kids and I got it. It led ultimately to my hospitalization with a bacterial secondary infection, so I would have appreciated it if I could have avoided that. I will not, however, point fingers at anyone for the lack of a vaccine. The government acted rapidly, private industry tried to make the vaccine, but they had trouble with it and it took longer than they expected. Shit happens. The early use of the term "Pandemic" by world bodies without a more careful definition of the term probably contributed to some of the "hysteria".

Also, I want to reiterate that I am not against vaccinations for the reasons usually stated by the anti-vaccine contingent. I am for a more nuanced approach that appreciates the lesson we should have learned from the development of anti-biotic resistant bacteria. See the "eco-system" quote from above. We live in (and some people would legitimately claim that individually we are) an ecosystem of bacteria and viruses. They are ever present in our environment and daily lives. We mostly succumb to infections when our immune system is stressed, weak, or damaged.

I am all for new technological tools and therapies to combat infectious disease including vaccines, but I fear that we have not yet reached the point where out knowledge and technology is sufficient to replace our evolutionarily designed and very powerful immune system - not to mention our social immune system - the spreading of non-lethal bacteria and viruses throughout the population in order to gain immunity. We are getting close to having the appropriate technology, but not there yet. I feel that we are at the point right now that mass vaccinations and quarantines will lead to the creation of super-viruses such has been the case with super-bacteria (MSRA). It is an ecological argument - when you knock-out all the substantially non-lethal infectious agents then you create an environment where only the super-bugs will thrive. Unless we have the tools to combat the super-bugs (tools that are more powerful than the immune system), we are asking for trouble. Thus I reiterate my suggestion that only the most vulnerable people should get vaccinations and advanced treatment while the rest of us suffer through the occasional flu or cold. Soon will will have more powerful "unnatural" tools and then I will be more comfortable with the application of such.

This is an interesting argument. We know that antibiotic resistant bacteria develop due to sub-lethal applications of antibiotic, leading to a selection for resistance genes. I have a harder time understanding how this would occur with a vaccine. Super bugs don't thrive more because you've had fewer infections with less-lethal bugs. If anything, your mucosal barrier function will be more effective if you have not had an infection in a while, and it will be harder for you to get an infection. That's the reason that non-lethal viral URIs lead to lethal secondary and tertiary infections.

We need to get better at gauging the behavior of new viri, and faster at making vaccines. We need to lose the eggs. We need to push harder on the development of a generic flu vaccine that hits the parts of the virus that are not so variable. Progress has been made there. We definitely should not have a cavalier attitude about pandemic flu, as there are species around with lethality of 50%. Half the people who get sick die. If one of those bird variants, which currently have very poor human to human transmissibility, ever picks up genes that confer a high rate of infection, we will be looking at a catastrophe of unprecedented proportion. I think we should look on H1N1 as a learning experience. We need to optimize government and media messaging, improve our ability to predict virus behavior, and develop and distribute countermeasures much faster.

[Luna]

I thought spreading of antibiotics will only make us *find* the rare "selected" resistant virus, not create one.

Spreading antibiotics or not, if it's there it's there, by spreading it we only maybe find it, that's how we had that explained in biology.

[niner]

I thought spreading of antibiotics will only make us *find* the rare "selected" resistant virus, not create one.

Spreading antibiotics or not, if it's there it's there, by spreading it we only maybe find it, that's how we had that explained in biology.

We do more than just find it. We kill all the competing bugs that aren't resistant, so the one resistant one grows without bounds until there are billions of them. If you get a few cycles of this, you can get greater degrees of antibiotic resistance, ultimately resulting in a "superbug". The same sort of thing happens all the time in cancer chemotherapy. Any time you are trying to kill cells that number in the gazillions, and they are reproducing rapidly, evolution will not be your friend.

[Mind]

Just to clarify what I mean by creating super-viruses (above post), it is the same general principle as hundreds of years ago when human populations lived isolated from each other. People within those populations developed resistance to various pathogens, when they started travelling around the world, they spread diseases to populations that had no resistance, and there were REAL pandemics, not media driven pandemics like the 2009 swine flu.

It is my contention that the world has not experienced increased disease pandemics in recent years precisely because people travel more and are more connected than ever before. Our "social" immune system is stronger because we transmit each new non-lethal variation of viral particles around the world each year.

Just another follow up, even though less than 25% of the U.S. population got the swine flu vaccine last flu season, there was no super-deadly-god-awful-pestilent-raging-second-wave of the swine flu, around the country. Again, I realize that super-bugs could develop and could create pandemics and I could be a victim, but I feel mass hysteria can be a worse enemy. During the height of the swine flu scare, it was suggested in this forum and elsewhere, that not taking the vaccine was akin to killing your neighbors.