25 replies to this topic

[dumbdumb]

Moderator's Note:

The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of administration method causes Smoker's Melanosis, and it is likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number of moles which smokers and their families get. 

The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa.

 

Hello,

I've used snus for years, and recently have read quite a few posts where people mention or recommend using nicotine patches as part of their nootropics stack. I just thought it might be helpful to them, and to others curious about the effects of nicotine who do not wish to smoke, sniff or "chew," to bring to their attention the existence of snus, which possesses only very meager carcinogenic properties - or perhaps none at all, in effective terms. Additionally, I'm curious if anyone might know a reason why snus wouldn't be as useful as a nootropic as nicotine patches are; it seems to me that they accomplish essentially the same thing, but I'm not confident in my total awareness of all the more intricate functions and mechanisms involved.

It also seems to be much cheaper, per dose, than any nicotine patch I can find.

Here is the Wikipedia page with more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

Edited by YOLF, 25 March 2017 - 01:22 AM.

[Cassox]

Snus is the still close to being the equivalent of chewing tobacco. I took a look at the studies that they used to say its not carcinogenic. Even so, I prefer patches. With patches, I can place them in different areas every day. I guess you COULD use snus up the um... other end. Or in the nose. . Or if your a female you have even more muscous membrane to consider.
From what I understand nicotine itself still has a hand in peripheral vascular diseases. Interesting point though. After reading this I would definitely choose snus over lozenges or gum.

I'm curious. Have patches and such actually been shown to be carcinogenic? I'll have to check it out. I assume so, but I really don't know.

[Parleton Trent]

Hello,

I've used snus for years, and recently have read quite a few posts where people mention or recommend using nicotine patches as part of their nootropics stack. I just thought it might be helpful to them, and to others curious about the effects of nicotine who do not wish to smoke, sniff or "chew," to bring to their attention the existence of snus, which possesses only very meager carcinogenic properties - or perhaps none at all, in effective terms. Additionally, I'm curious if anyone might know a reason why snus wouldn't be as useful as a nootropic as nicotine patches are; it seems to me that they accomplish essentially the same thing, but I'm not confident in my total awareness of all the more intricate functions and mechanisms involved.

It also seems to be much cheaper, per dose, than any nicotine patch I can find.

Here is the Wikipedia page with more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

Nicotine itself is not a nootrophic (not fitting the defintion). Also on that wiki page

Current research focuses on possible long-term effects on blood pressure, hypertension and possible risk of pancreatic cancer due to tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs). TSNAs are the only component of tobacco shown to induce pancreatic cancer in laboratory animals.^[9] Nicotine may also exacerbate pancreatic illness, because nicotine stimulates the gastrointestinal tract's production of cholecystokinin

, which stimulates pancreatic growth and may be implicated in pancreatic cancer. Thus far the evidence specifically implicating snus in pancreatic cancer is only suggestive

What you want is a compound/drug that enhance nicotinic receptor, preferably an agonist

[Parleton Trent]

Snus is the still close to being the equivalent of chewing tobacco. I took a look at the studies that they used to say its not carcinogenic. Even so, I prefer patches. With patches, I can place them in different areas every day. I guess you COULD use snus up the um... other end. Or in the nose. . Or if your a female you have even more muscous membrane to consider.
From what I understand nicotine itself still has a hand in peripheral vascular diseases. Interesting point though. After reading this I would definitely choose snus over lozenges or gum.

I'm curious. Have patches and such actually been shown to be carcinogenic? I'll have to check it out. I assume so, but I really don't know.

If you up the dose, almost anything can become carcinogenic. Patch has to be safer than Snus since Snus has power tobacco product, which still containt nitrosoamine.

I'm still not sure about potency, too lazy to look up but Snus is probably more potent.

[dumbdumb]

Thanks for the replies!

I agree that snus cannot possibly be "as safe" as a nicotine patch; my question really related more to its efficacy as an (aid to) nootropics. Specifically because snus is so much cheaper than nicotine patches/gums, I'm willing to chance the proven-as-minor risks of the product, just so long as its ultimate effect is equivalent.

But in any case, thanks a million for the information!

Will a nicotine-receptor agonist have any effect in the absence of nicotine consumption?

Edited by dumbdumb, 12 May 2009 - 06:03 PM.

[drunkfunk]

what about the electronic cigarette ?
all the nicotine-fun without any tabacco-toxins!

been using it for a while now and have to say, it really works, not to mention, it helped me kick my habit!
its just, that i have a new one now ;P

[Parleton Trent]

Thanks for the replies!

I agree that snus cannot possibly be "as safe" as a nicotine patch; my question really related more to its efficacy as an (aid to) nootropics. Specifically because snus is so much cheaper than nicotine patches/gums, I'm willing to chance the proven-as-minor risks of the product, just so long as its ultimate effect is equivalent.

But in any case, thanks a million for the information!

Will a nicotine-receptor agonist have any effect in the absence of nicotine consumption?

With regard to the efficacy (the ability to produce an effect) and in this case nootrophic-related, yes it does. It is generally known that stimulation of nicotinic acetylcholine receptor in the brain will enhance cognitive function (which is similar to piracetam in some people). The closer you get to the pure compound itself (nicotine) or strong affinity to the nicotinic receptor the stronger the effect, as well as the potency.

I think some people avoid snus probably because of probable long-term oral issue (eventual gum damaging/inflammation -- I am just speculating on this part)

If you are into snus, by all means . I am just curious as to how long each session last though. Otherwise patch nicotine is fine, or better yet, why not try choline-supplement as they are great aids to memory.

Anyway almost all nicotinic receptor agonists relating to brain are experimental at this stage for treating azheimer/cognitive function deficit at this point. Other agonists are avaible as prescriptions but they are not pertaining to what we are talking about, since they are mostly using in anesthesia/ER for muscle problem. You should know that nicotinic receptors are not only found on the brain but also throughout body (e.g. muscle).

Edited by Parleton Trent, 12 May 2009 - 06:38 PM.

[Parleton Trent]

what about the electronic cigarette ?
all the nicotine-fun without any tabacco-toxins!

been using it for a while now and have to say, it really works, not to mention, it helped me kick my habit!
its just, that i have a new one now ;P

e-cigarette is good too if you are into nicotine, more healthy than smoking. i guess what really matters at this point is how fat is your wallet...

e-cigarette is pretty much recent. there is no long term data/peer-review with regards to health risks. but hey, if it helps you, by all mean...

Edited by Parleton Trent, 12 May 2009 - 06:48 PM.

[dumbdumb]

Yeah, those e-cigarettes seem pretty neat, I was considering one - I just worry that, as a product, they won't really catch on, the companies manufacturing them will close or move on to newer models, and at some point I'll be stuck with the device but without any means to refill it.

Edited by dumbdumb, 12 May 2009 - 08:27 PM.

[yowza]

What happens if you swallow some snuff juice?

Seriously though, 1 big area that's missing from the nootropic market is nicotonergics. Are there any safe entheogens out there that could be used for nicotonergic activity in a nootropic (not recreational drug usage) like manner?

This is 1 of the huge gaps within the nootropics market.

[bgwithadd]

Probably lots of them, we just don't know what they are. Hopefully this will be screened for more, though. I'd not be surprised if mesembrine worked on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors a bit.

[modelcadet]

I use snus as a noot. It's the cheapest way to get nicotine, save something like longhorn dip. Given the accelerating advances in cancer research, I see snus as a relatively safe, cheap option.

[Parleton Trent]

It seems nicotineric Ach receptor agonists in the brain for clinical applications (e.g. Azheimer) are very recent. Too bad it will take a while, hopefully, for these to get the market . If you cannot wait, I guess you have to get high off from nicotine

[Johann]

I've been using Nicotine patches for four years and I haven't gotten cancer so I think they're safe.

What I do is instead of using a whole patch every day (21mg) I cut it up into 7 to 9 little strips. I use one a day so that comes out to about 2.5mg to 3 mg a day. Its all good. I feel great. Anyone that knows nicotine knows that feeling of well being that just can't be matched by anything else.

[niner]

Anyone that knows nicotine knows that feeling of well being that just can't be matched by anything else.

Isn't that the nub of the addiction problem though? And there's the problem of needing more to maintain the buzz. You might be talking about something different, I dunno; 2.5 to 3 mg/d really isn't very much nicotine. I really wanted to weigh in on the Snus vs patches question though. The advantage of the patch is that it slowly diffuses nicotine into the system so that you never get a big blast of it that triggers the addictive response. With Snus, you are going to get a bolus when you first put it in your mouth, and therein lies the possibility of getting quickly addicted.

Patches are insanely expensive, but they are very sophisticated bits of pharmacological engineering. They are about as safe as nicotine can get, and unlikely to pose an addiction danger. Having been addicted to nicotine at one time myself, I would advise being really careful with this drug. Are there any generic patches yet, or can they be had through Canadian pharmacies?

[kilgoretrout]

Yeah, those e-cigarettes seem pretty neat, I was considering one - I just worry that, as a product, they won't really catch on, the companies manufacturing them will close or move on to newer models, and at some point I'll be stuck with the device but without any means to refill it.

See:

Johnson Creek Original Smoke Juice - The Best E-Liquid in the ...

Just noticed this at the revamped site:

"For the past six months, we’ve been working tirelessly creating a formula that actually produces more vapor, more throat hit, yet tastes even better than before! Our ʻJuice Masters here at Johnson Creek have come up with a recipe that meets all of the above characteristics and more, yet also happens to use fewer ingredients and is 100% tobacco-free! That’s right, in anticipation of any future FDA regulations, we’re making these changes to ensure that the world’s favorite and most trusted smoke juice will be available for decades to come! And as always, our smoke juice is completely American- made and all of our ingredients are sourced from companies right here in the United States. "

Tried their previous formulation which I prefered very much over that supplied by n-Joy. Great products. Bottles of liquid you can add to the depleted mouthpiece/cartriges in a VERY wide variety of flavors and strengths, some alot stronger than those offered by the unit manufacturers. WAY WAY cheaper than buying cartriges, too.

They also make Propyleme Glycol - free versions in case you find that unpleasant or irritating, and use instead vegetable glycerine, which also makes for a thicker fake "smoke".

I got the larger "Pen" size version of the n-Joy unit, and like it pretty well, but it still does not produce a sufficient volume of vapor" to satisfy my love of the raw feeling of inhaling silky smoke. So I am thinking of trying the mini-cigar version of n-Joy, using a lower-strength juice to get lots more vapor but avoid ODing.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 10 July 2009 - 05:17 PM.

[modelcadet]

The Colbert Report	Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c
Cheating Death - Snus & Placebo Effect
www.colbertnation.com
Colbert Report Full Episodes Political Humor Michael Moore

Edited by modelcadet, 01 October 2009 - 08:20 AM.

[hamishm00]

Yeah I must admit the e-cigarette looks pretty neat.

I have used nicotine on and off as a nootropic for a long time, and I must admit it is an excellent brain booster.

I query the negative effect that snus has on the gums.

[Johann]

 I like the price for all the supplies of the e-cigarette company.  Most e-cigs

are much more expensive.  

[helmingstay]

Anyone that knows nicotine knows that feeling of well being that just can't be matched by anything else.

Isn't that the nub of the addiction problem though? And there's the problem of needing more to maintain the buzz. You might be talking about something different, I dunno; 2.5 to 3 mg/d really isn't very much nicotine. I really wanted to weigh in on the Snus vs patches question though. The advantage of the patch is that it slowly diffuses nicotine into the system so that you never get a big blast of it that triggers the addictive response. With Snus, you are going to get a bolus when you first put it in your mouth, and therein lies the possibility of getting quickly addicted.

Patches are insanely expensive, but they are very sophisticated bits of pharmacological engineering. They are about as safe as nicotine can get, and unlikely to pose an addiction danger. Having been addicted to nicotine at one time myself, I would advise being really careful with this drug. Are there any generic patches yet, or can they be had through Canadian pharmacies?

Generic patches are now available in the US at about half the price of namebrands ($21 for 14 pieces of 21mg - always buy the strong ones and cut into strips for lower doses).

Personally, i like the slow diffusion and lack of rush of the patches compared to smoking and gum (can't comment on snus). The rush feels good, but it doesn't really help me *do* anything, and is actually a little distracting. The steady supply of nicotine, on the other hand, leads to noticable improvements in concentration (though creativity suffers somewhat).

One question i have is the effects of minor tobacco alkaloids, including nornicotine and anabasine. It looks like they're only present in small amounts in tobacco. The patch feels a little "chemical" in comparison to smoking, but overall i prefer it.

[LIB]

I'm not a regular user of tobacco/nicotine products but I'm interested in nootropics as I have plenty of school work for the next few years.

Is nicotine itself dangerous? Do you think its worth giving the patches a shot if I'm not normally a user? Where can I get the cheapest patches?

[brain]

one thing i'm curious about with the snus is whether or not it has the same MAO-B inhibiting properties of inhaled tobacco smoke. if you're not already familar with the studies, cigarette/tobacco smoke decrease MAO-B levels throughout the body by something like 20 - 40 percent, depending on the user. this is going to have the effect of increasing dopamine/PEA levels. here's a nice picture demonstrating this:



this effect has been shown not to be related to nicotine itself, but to other chemicals inside the tobacco plant. possibly harmaline alkaloids?

if snus does have the same effect, it might be more beneficial in terms of cognition than the nicotine patches.

the other thing is that you can basically achieve the same effect with selegiline, and probably a more pronounced effect at that.

[Stan100]

Okay, I tried a can of snus, and this is what I've got to say:

- Definitely nootropic activity. A while back I got a free box of nicorette (I don't smoke , it was just free online), and this was the same thing. I've tried cigarettes and they're too much for me. Snus and nicorette don't make you feel like you need to melt into the chair. Snus put me in the zone.
- Snus made me pissed off. Let's take everything into account here. I could have snus, and be the nicest guy in the world afterwards. In fact, up to the whole day. But I would come home and be abnormally angry. Little things frustrated me to no end. I'm talking anger. I'm a relaxed person.
- Blood pressure. There's a lot of salt in snus. And nicotine is a vasoconstrictor. It makes it harder to pump blood and all those good things that go along with it.
- Makes you feel good. If there's bad, there's good. And it was damn nice.

Final thoughts? I won't be buying more. Mostly because of the anger issue, and secondly out of a fear of addiction. It should be important to note this piece from wikipedia:

Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties.^[34] However, only after coadministration with an MAOI, such as those found in tobacco, nicotine produces significant behavioral sensitization, a measure of addiction potential. Nicotine gum, usually in 2-mg or 4-mg doses, and nicotine patches are available, as well as smokeless tobacco which do not have all the other ingredients in smoked tobacco.

Edited by Stan100, 08 October 2009 - 01:40 AM.

[hamishm00]

I'm not a regular user of tobacco/nicotine products but I'm interested in nootropics as I have plenty of school work for the next few years.

Is nicotine itself dangerous? Do you think its worth giving the patches a shot if I'm not normally a user? Where can I get the cheapest patches?

I have never smoked a cigarette in my life. I occasionally use patches for the nootropic effet, which is, in my view, a significant nootropic effect.

Nicotine is fairly harmless by itself. It is a vasoconstrictor, raises blood pressure, perhaps a risk of clots and clogging and will make you shake like a rattlesnake. All fairly harmless stuff relatively speaking. Women who use nicotine gum and patches during the early stages of pregnancy face an increased risk of having babies with birth defects.

I like it, but I don't find it addictive. Typing about it now though makes me want to get some.

[helmingstay]

I'm not a regular user of tobacco/nicotine products but I'm interested in nootropics as I have plenty of school work for the next few years.

Is nicotine itself dangerous? Do you think its worth giving the patches a shot if I'm not normally a user? Where can I get the cheapest patches?

Generic patches are now available for about half of the price at the big box stores (target, walmart). Buy the strongest kind (21mg) and cut them into the size you need, since all the strengths are the same price. If you're feeling adventurous, there are a number of programs that provide free patches if you're quiting. I'm getting them from my university right now, though i am actually quiting smoking .

One thing that i'm becoming increasingly aware of is the cognitive trade-off with stimulants. Impaired creativity is the biggest one, a complaint often leveled by users of aderol and ritalin. Nicotine is pretty harmless stuff (though unpleasant to discontinue), but it only increases focus, memory, and attention. "Synthesis" thinking can be impaired. If you're writing a paper, as is the case with other stimulants, it works best to form your thesis and outline your ideas ***before*** administering stimulants. Otherwise, you're apt to spin your wheels, check your email, file your mail, clean your office, etc. with increased focus. Not what i'd consider nootropic...

[Athanasios]

Just wanted to add some info on snus:

Nicotine Tob Res. 2008 Dec;10(12):1773-82.
New and traditional smokeless tobacco: comparison of toxicant and carcinogen levels.
Stepanov I, Jensen J, Hatsukami D, Hecht SS.

Masonic Cancer Center, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA. stepa011@umn.edu
Declining cigarette use and spreading bans on smoking in public places in the United States are encouraging the U.S. cigarette industry to turn to another tobacco category, smokeless tobacco products. Currently, a number of new brands are being test marketed, including Taboka, Marlboro Snus, Camel Snus, and Skoal Dry. We report here levels of tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNAs), alkaloids, anions, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH), and volatile aldehydes in these products, and compare them to the most popular traditional moist snuff brands. Total TSNAs averaged 1.97 microg/g dry weight tobacco in Taboka, Marlboro Snus, and Camel Snus, 4.54 microg/g tobacco in Skoal Dry, and 7.42 microg/g tobacco in traditional brands. The amounts of unprotonated nicotine averaged 0.961 mg/g tobacco in Taboka, Marlboro Snus, and Skoal Dry, 7.22 mg/g tobacco in Camel Snus, and 7.57 mg/g tobacco in traditional brands. Levels of minor tobacco alkaloids were relatively high in Taboka, Marlboro Snus, and Skoal Dry, as compared to other products analyzed here. Levels of nitrite and nitrate in new U.S. smokeless tobacco products and the Swedish snus General were lower than those in the other products. Remarkably high levels of chloride and some PAH were observed in the traditional moist snuff. Crotonaldehyde levels were about five times higher in Taboka and Marlboro Snus than in traditional products. The large variation in the levels of some toxicants and carcinogens analyzed here indicates that more effort is required from the U.S. tobacco industry to further reduce their amounts in new and traditional smokeless tobacco products.

Also there is evidence of at least Marlboro changing the delivery (such as pH) to give lower blood nicotine levels. The assumption made was they may do this to prevent smokers from switching.