Tianeptine (Stablon) - Info, Combos & Experiences
Anti-depressant, anxiolytic, analgesic and potentially neuroprotective Nootropic?
I've always been interested in this drug. Not for any particular reason, moreso for the fact that it is almost one-of-a-kind. The idea that a compound which increases the uptake of Serotonin in the brain can have such a broad spectrum of beneficial of effects and may even be better, as well as much less harmful than some anti-depressants and benzodiazepines is very interesting. Then, to find out that it also has (albeit limited and moderately untested) status as possessing some Nootropic value just makes it all the more intriguing. If you take a look on the Tianeptine - Wikipedia page then you what kind of things it can potentially offer. To quote a few of the bits I am particularly interested in as well as to provide some basic knowledge for people who don't know (some para-phrased):
There is also some great information HERE (tianeptine.com) put out by the wonderful David Pearce (from his, 'The Good Drugs Guide')...described as a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Enhancer (SSRE)... enhances the reuptake of serotonin instead of inhibiting it... gives rise to a mood elevation, unlike the mood blunting associated with SSRIs.
...short-lived, but pleasant, stimulant effect experienced by some patients is shared with its predecessor, Amineptine (but a lot less so; no dopamine action).
...claimed to have strong antidepressant and anxiolytic properties with a relative lack of sedative, anticholinergic and cardiovascular adverse effects.
...high safety profile: no definitive known contraindications or drug interactions other than the generic, "avoid if using MAOI's or if pregnant" warning that accompanies all serotonergic drugs.
...very few side effects compared to other anti-depressants or anxiolytics... Tianeptine is also being studied in the treatment of ADD/ADHD.
...Tianeptine is synergistic used in conjunction with other drugs such as Modafinil.
More to the point. I am going to be trying out this rather interesting and unique SSRE quite soon to see if it has any potential Nootropic effects (not that it is a Nootropic in itself, as it doesn't fit the description). More just to see what this whole SSRE mechanism 'feels' like and whether the calmness/anxiolytic/pro-motivational effects could be useful for augmentation of a Nootropic stack every once in a while. It's purported synergy with Modafinil sounds of particular interest as this could be a way of taking off the uncomfortable 'edge' that people sometimes feel from high/chronic Modafinil usage. It may also help increase focus in non-stressful situations, making Modafinil more effective in an "all-round" type of way.
I have read of anecdotal reports that explored Tianeptine's use - in combination with other smart drugs and medications alike - as a "cognitive enhancer" and it got some pretty positive responses when used with certain other drugs. Some of the experiences were pushing 'euphoria' which (obviously) increased work output, drive and concentration; but I want to see if anyone here has found any synergesic effects with the use of Tianeptine either by itself, or with other Nootropics, herbs or misc. substances...?
Below are a few of the reports I pulled up, mostly because they are the most detailed, but they still lack some dosage information - at least for the Tianeptine - so I'm banking on some personal experiences here on Imminst to substantiate or refute the statements. These are not my quotes, but rather the ones available with a quick Google search (I can cite them if you want...) so there is a little bit of lack of knowledge present. But, in all essence, that's exactly what I'm after. As much as I'm fascinated by the hypothetical synergy and efficacy of certain "controversial Nootropics", I think it is equally important to hear of other peoples' subjective experiences.
Anyway, here's some stuff I found. I've highlighted the (positive) stuff I think is most relevant.:
*** N.B. I have inferred some of the doses from what the author has written in previous reports as well as the comments he makes in his report and the availability of Tianeptine strengths. However, most of the dosages are given by the author himself. Please also note that I haven't highlighted the negative aspects of the reports. This is not because I am ignoring them, but because talking about both seems drawn out an futile. The subjective positive aspects that are written are what I am most interested in, the objective medical interactions can be reviewed after. ***
Tianeptine (Stablon - 12.5mg)
Duration of Experiment: 2 days.
"Stablon increases the pre-synaptic reuptake of serotonin. I’d like to find out if this means that there is more seratonin in the synapses or less. It’s dreadfully expensive, but its effects are quite nice. With Stablon, I feel a contentedness like with Picamilon, and I also feel a push towards “awe” and noticing beauty in the world, especially if I ingest any amount of caffeine. With good music and a small amount of caffeine, this drug reminds me of really subtly tripping, but without the mental and emotional alteration or sensory overload. The feeling is slightly like, “I am immersed in the world to a much greater extent, but I am not fearful of it because I am a part of all that I am immersed in.” It resembles a very tiny, tiny form of subtle ego death, if there is such a thing as SUBTLE ego death."
- My Comments - Okay, so this seems to be erring towards the recreational use of Tianeptine, but the author does liken it to the 'content' feelings of Picamilon. I happen to find Picamilon a very effective Nootropic for this reason (GABAergic drugs/supplements have always served me well for this purpose). If you kind of ignore the author's comments on the drug-esque experience, the idea of Tianeptine and Caffeine sounds like it could be a nice mix. A relaxed, contented feeling with a bit of a stimulating edge. Also, "I am interested in the world..." could perhaps be translated (in terms of Nootropics) into "I am interested in xyz..." --> 'xyz' being whatever task it is you have at hand. Potential motivation aid? It's a shame there is no definite indication of dosage, though I inferred the dosage by reading the other experience reports below and from the fact that Stablon is currently only available in 12.5mg tabs...
Tianeptine (Stablon 12.5mg), Piracetam 800-1600mg + Choline 250mg
Duration of Experiment: 3 days
"No added benefits were noted over Stablon alone. However, I did not ingest caffeine during the three days that I was experimenting with this combination, so I don’t feel like I gave it a completely fair shot."
Tianeptine (Stablon - 25mg), Deprenyl (2.5mg), Piracetam 800-1600mg + Choline 250mg
Duration of Experiment: 2 days, spaced apart by 2 days
"This combination easily rivals some of the lower dose, less legal substances out there, but with an increased mental clarity and an incredible feeling of well being throughout the experience (which lasts approximately 5 hours). This combination feels like it has the potential to be very psychologically addicting because there is such a dramatic mood lift, and yet (perhaps because it was week two on Stablon), one pill a day wasn’t giving me the same intensity of effects as it had initially. Having to take a larger dose of Stablon to experience the same benefits as before feels like a big warning sign that something is not cool with regular Stablon ingestion.
With this combination, I experience a state of wonder and awe, with great body shivers (when music is added), probably thanks to the Deprenyl. One day I noticed a very slight tension headache about 4 hours after ingestion. Communication is wonderful and fun and intimate, although I tended to introduce a giddiness and light-heartedness into the conversation at unusual times, especially during the first few hours. I feel extremely at peace with how things are on this combination, no matter how awkward or potentially hurtful something might be. Outward appearance and personality remained normal, except I probably looked insanely happy, relaxed, and smiled a lot."
- My Comments - Hmmm, there seems a lot to say about this combination. There are obviously immediate issues regarding combining Selegiline (Deprenyl) with the Tianeptine, as mixing an MAOI and a Serotonergic drug is not an ideal recipe. However, it is a very specific MAO-B inhibitor and an SSRE rather than an SSRI, so the risk of Serotonin Syndrome and Hypertensive Crisis is most likely nowhere near as high, as well as the fact that the doses still remain fairly low. I mean, taking 2.5mg Deprenyl and 1g of DL-Phenylalanine or another PEA precursor could be potentially more dangerous. But more to the point:
- increased mental clarity and a feeling of well-being, lasting <4hrs --> This seems like a pretty positive, all-encompassing cognitive effect, if bordering on slightly recreational. Naturally feeling 'good' coupled with an increased sense of mental clarity can only be helpful when it comes to facing mundane work/tasks.
- mood lift as well as feeling happy and relaxed --> Again, seems positive but a bit recreational. Not in the conventional Nootropic sense, but rather that a positive mood and attitude can contribute greatly to the motivation, enjoyment and quality of work.
- calm but accompanied by an enjoyable desire to communicate --> I could see this being of great use in an essay situation. Sometimes I find it hard to keep my sentences/paragraphs uncluttered as I keep thinking in tangents and of new points; sometimes I also simply lack the motivation to get started on an essay. To want to communicate your personal thoughts thoughts could be beneficial.
Tianeptine (Stablon - 25mg), Deprenyl (2.5mg), Piracetam 800-1600mg + Choline 250mg, Picamilon ~150mg
Duration of Experiment: 1 day
"The addition of Picamilon added stability and grounding to the already-amazing experience I mentioned above. I only tried this combination once, perhaps because I felt so empowered and calm and happy and “in control” and “awestruck” and “at peace” that I felt this combination couldn’t possibly be good for me, and if I got used to this feeling, it could become an expensive and unsustainable habit. I definitely have noted this combination for the future if I ever feel like I am in a rut and need to look at things from a different, happier perspective. I feel like this combination can be used in a therapeutic environment as a subtler, more legally sound alternative to MDMA therapy. I’m looking forward to the next personal challenge in my life so that I can see if this combination makes it easier for me to work through and untie hurt emotions from a place of power and clarity (positive), or if it just puts me in a good mood and lets me forget about the problem (negative)."
- My Comments - Admittedly, this one does not seem so great as the author describes it as MDMA-like and, in fact, I would not consider this as a Nootropic stack at all. However, I thought I'd include it to show the profound synergy across such a broad range of substances. An SSRE, a selective MAO-B inhibitor, a -racetam, a Choline supplement and a GABAergic compound. I reckon with some tweaking of doses and only using very sporadically (or peeerrrhaps some intense cycling) then it could really prove to be an effective "boost" to ones' mind, albeit only temporary.
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SO, that's the lot. It does seem like quite an interesting drug, albeit coming across a little recreational. However, I am still very interested in the idea of a Deprenyl and Tianeptine being taken together. Having now been taking 2.5mg of Deprenyl everyday as well as a moderate dose of DLPA (well, 6 days a week then a one-day break) for about 3 weeks I am finding it subtle but especially effective in terms of general cognitive functioning and the ability to motivate myself and become goal orientated - when I HAVE a goal, that is. It would nice to see if anyone here has had experience with Tianeptine and Deprenyl. In fact, ANY experience with Tianeptine AT ALL would be great, whether it's for approved, off-label or any other use.
Also, seeing as Tianeptine is cited as supposedly synergesic with Modafinil, I can envisage a Tianeptine + Deprenyl + Modafinil + Nootropic stack (inc. Picamilon and Pyritinol) as being a really good "kick". Obviously the doses for the prescription meds should probably be dropped down to their lowest, 12.5mg:1mg:100mg respectively.
I have bookmarked a general search I did on these boards, Google and a few other forums so I will continue to update this thread with information as and when I come across it but obviously any contributions are always greatly appreciated
- Alex
Edited by Phreak, 15 May 2009 - 07:31 PM.
