26 replies to this topic

[Pike]

Hey Imminst. Pike here.

Some of you might remember me from my former log I used to keep on here with my back-and-forth battle with ADHD and my turn to nootropics in order to look for a more long-term treatment.

Well, on the behalf of my academic career, I'd like to say, thank you ImmInst. Since starting here, perusing the forums, and finding out what information I can about various nootropics, cognition/clarity enhancers, general life practices, I have:
- raised my GPA by .5
- made immense progress in discovering my body's individual chemistry
- made immense progress on a (still developing) LIFE regimen to assist with my ADHD (not just relying on supplements)
- been accepted into the University of California schooling system on, essentially, a full ride
- learned tons of... well... fun information that I find myself incorporating into my life.

With that said, here is my review of supplemets I've taken over the past few months in addition to my current regimen for the purpose of treating ADHD.

So, review of all supplements taken (listed in no particular order):

Piracetam - A one hit wonder. Just got lucky with this one and has never left my regimen.
Aniractam - Although literature says it does not build up in one's system, i've definately found that its effects do. Love it.
Alpha GPC - Supposedly a fantastic choline source, I found it no better than any of the other ones i tried.
Lecithin - Poor choline source, but super duper amazing for adding to a shake that happens to have myriad water and fat soluble nootropics for its emulsifying properties. Definately seems to help absorb the fat-soluble ones more.
Sulbutiamine - I think I will always carry a sweet spot for this nootropic and will miss having it terrible. As a side note, as effective as it was (definately amont the most helpful, if not the most) it was easily THE most foul thing i've ever tasted. There was never one time I put this into a shake and didn't gag.
Centrophenoxine - My favorite "choline source" nootropic. I'm aware that it's commonly regarded as a mere choline source, however, in my opinion, it's DEFINATELY a nootropic of its own that happens to also be a choline source.
Idebenone - Another one of my early favorites. At the 6-8 week mark, you really start seeing a difference in mental clarity. It's anti-coagulant+cerebral blood flow enhancing abilities are definately not things to be brushed off, however. Too much of this paired up with my other noots sometimes gave me spontaneous nosebleeds.
Ginkgo Bilboa - Oh dear god, I am never trying this again. Perhaps it was because I used an unstandardized extract tea, however, within a week of using this, I began experiencing symptoms of vitamin B6 deficiency. I later found that it carried an antivitamin b6 NEUROTOXIN. Never touching it again.
Pyridoxamine - A completely-out-of-the-blue help. I experimented with it because I was aware that those with ADHD typically have B-vitamin deficiencies and I had already been taking b-vitamins as a regular part of my day-to-day regimen. Surprisingly, it seemed to add an extra "kick" to my regimen.
Huperzine A - Helpful for memory. Very. In terms of focus: Not at all. I only use it because it acts as an NMDA antagonist and I don't like drinking copious amounts of magnesium all day on the days that I use stimulants.
Galantamine - Feels like Huperzine and a 5 hour cigarette. Slightly better focus, but not particularly.
Nicotine (in cigarette, gum, and patch form) - cigarettes were by far the most useful for potentiating Adderall. On their own, not really helpful for focus. Gum was terrible (wanted to try lozenges but they were out). Patches reign #1 for nicotine administration in my book. I typically cut a 21mg patch into 4ths, or on days where I'd like to potentiate my Adderall, I'd cut it in half. BIG NOTE TO THAT: I am a former smoker, and I am sure that that much nicotine to a non-user would probably make you fall asleep.
Acetyl-L-Carnitine - Not bad. On a stimulant comparison, it's like 2.5mg of Adderall.
Alpha Lipoic Acid - Another surprising out-of-the-blue helper. I used it at first to try and synergize with the ALCAR. I found that it helped with focus more on it's own than alcar. However, the ALA+ALCAR combo did prove superior in the end.
CoQ-10 (ubiquinol form) - Didn't help. However, I wasn't expecting it to. Sure did help with my day-to-day energy levels. Tried it because Idebenone seemed to work so great for me.
Ginseng - Awesome on it's own. Only seems to synergize well with other herbs (i.e. adaptogens, immunogens, etc.). When paired with other non-herb nootropics, it seemed to diminish them greatly.
Ashwagandha - Put me to sleep. Terrible.
Bacopa Monierri - Seemed to make ADHD symptoms worse. Not touching it again.
Rhodiola Rosea - Definately something i took at night for a while. After about a month, it stopped putting me to sleep, and it helped with the constant daydreaming.
Green Tea: Tea by itself feels like a nootropic, extract doesn't.
Fish-Oil - Did see some benefits, but too mild to pinpoint to the EPA/DHA factor. Then again, I was using a very low-potentcy and low quality fish-oil. (costco-brand. meh.)
Modafinil - I know that literature supports it but it did nothing for me other than put my ADHD into overdrive. Feels like an energy drink and way too much niacin. Hate the stuff.
Vinpocetine - Awesome stuff. A nice short-term-memory buff and a little focus resembling that of a stimulant.
Desmopressin - <3 Good focus, but the memory boost is insane. Unreal. For 6-8 hours i have photographic memory. I'm not kidding. The day that I tried it I was able to remember even the smallest details, down to the number of buttons on the blouse that the pretty store clerk at Banana Republic was wearing, or something as wide as... all of the terms used in the covered chapters of my Biology test.
Hydergine - The best. To me, it's my super nootropic. It's a powerful nootropic all on it's own, it's easily potentiated, and it also seems to synergize with just about everything except modafinil (which really isn't a problem). When I use it with Addy, it's like a 2x magnifier, but takes off the jitters. When used with a noot-stack, same effect. It's my favorite nootropic I've ever tried and I would reccomend it strongly if it didn't carry that fibrosis risk (along with ergotism, of course).

Thus far, my favorite nootropics that I've tried are:
1) Hydergine
2) Sulbutiamine
3) Piracetam
4) Idebenone
5) Centrophenoxine

My regimen I take now consists of:

Piracetam - 1600mg x3
Aniracetam - 1000mg x3
Vipocetine - 5mg x3
Idebenone - 150mg x3
Alpha GPC - 400mg (w/breakfast)
Lecithin - 1200mg softgels x3 (180 Phosphatidyl Choline each)
Alpha Lipoic Acid - 200mg x3 (in sustained release form)
ALCAR - 1000mg x4
Fish Oil with 300mg of EPA/DHA total (yeah, crappy brand) - 1000mg softgels x3

NOTES:
- I miss Sulbutiamine terribly and will put it back into my regimen as a keeper the moment I use up some other things.
- I want to put Centrophenoxine back into my regimen, but there's a big concern I have for all this choline supplementing we seem to do...
- I still haven't tried Pyritinol, but don't plan to soon. Too expensive for my taste. If the price on bulk powder went down, or perhaps the amount I could get in bulk went up, I might give it a whirl.
- Willing to try Bromocriptine. Nicergoline seems okay, but it's just another cerebral blood flow enhancer, and I have enough of those. Cabergoline seems WAY too much.
- For those hard-on-the-tongue noots, get a capping kit. From what I can tell, the best noots are all the worst tasting. Cap-em-quick is utter crap unless you'd like to have early arthritus. Go with Capsule Machine if you're going to get one. Capsuline sells nice color capsules for those who like to color coordinate your supplements, or for those who don't like putting labels on everything.
- A MAJOR CONCERN I have about all of this choline supplementing we seem to do: seeing as choline was considered B-vitamin (b4 for those of you who weren't aware), and seems to have many of the properties of the b-family... wouldn't supplementing the copious amounts that we do (pretty carelessly at that) potentially create a serious imbalance of one's b-vitamins? I'm not exactly a bio-chemist or anything, but anyone who reads this forum long enough learns how delicate the b-vitamin family is, and that they all compete over one another for absorption. Any veteran posters care to elaborate?
- on the note of B-vitamins, I'm almost out of my b-complex. It was a low quality one that I bought On the shelf before I even knew about this site. Can anyone reccomend me to a generally "superior" B-complex I could buy? Preferrably, one that has either Pyridoxamine, Benfotiamine, Methyl B12, or LOW amounts of folic acid?
- Also, what benefits does an sustained-release b-complex have over a standard one? Most of the B-vitamins have such long half-lives anyway. Oh, an are there any sort of R-Lipoic-Acid sustained release forms? I am thorougly satisfied with ALA and would like to try RLA.


Sincerely,
Pike

Edited by Pike, 18 May 2009 - 04:57 AM.

[bgwithadd]

Choline and inositol and b vites all get kind of lumped together due to just...idiocy? Don't think they are really too related. It's like they chose the b vitamins all based on color or something similarly arbitrary. But, too much choline can cause a lot of wackiness, so don't go too crazy with it.

Wouldn't try bromocriptine. You are already monkeying with dopamine system enough and it's unlikely to yield any results anyway.

[blazewind]

Desmopressin - <3 Good focus, but the memory boost is insane. Unreal. For 6-8 hours i have photographic memory. I'm not kidding. The day that I tried it I was able to remember even the smallest details, down to the number of buttons on the blouse that the pretty store clerk at Banana Republic was wearing, or something as wide as... all of the terms used in the covered chapters of my Biology test.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this? What did you combine this with, how many days in a row can you do this, how consistent is this, what dosages are the threshold, and anything else you can think of...
Noopept is related to Vasopressin I I would like to know if that has a similar effect on you, read this post: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=316279

Edited by blazewind, 18 May 2009 - 06:47 AM.

[steelsky]

Hey Pike, you've been here for a while... and just now decided to show your true self?

Anyway, I feel happy for you, though I did take some of the supplements you've suggested (namely Idebenone, Sulbutiamin, Vinpocetine) and they didn't improve anything much. So sadly it's not my cut of supp (Trade Mark!).

Also, I did not find any major improvement with any supplements and the only things that did work (to a varied efficiency) are drugs. I still take many supplements for general health.

I might try Piracetam at higher doses, with Choline (which is recommended?), even though Aniracetam and Oxiracetam didn't do much (however, they were taken at relatively low doses).

Keep feeding the wheel.

[Parleton Trent]

Hey Pike, I was wondering the same thing about Desmopressin. Did you use it frequently or sparingly? Aside from its watering-retain effect, do you know what other negative effect it has? Maybe I should a little on this later on.

Edited by chrono, 24 October 2010 - 04:03 PM.
trimmed quote

[Parleton Trent]

Also with regarding to your concern to choline supplement, I do not think it is an issue with serious interaction and what not. Choline itself is not just any supplement but an ESSENTIAL supplement. Choline is made some from your body and the majority of it is derived from food sources (millk, soy, egg,etc.). With regard to your body and absorption/interaction, the major one is vit. B12 , and choline does not interfere with vit B12 nor any others (I tried to look up the literature). Luckily for us, there is a dietary guideline already established for a reasonable range, and it is 425 to 550mg, which mean you should take a maximum of 2 capsules (250mg or 300mg) per day.

Of course, with regard to your brain, if you take an insane amount of choline then it will cause receptor down-regulation, as would with any other high dose of brain nutrient supplements.

[bryce126]

great review, its good to get some feedback grouped in one spot, since it can be a little erratic searching everywhere. I checked the two company's B-complexes that I thought would be good, and ended up not liking them. They've got average forms of the B's, though they do use Methylcobalamin. I think supplementing separately is more beneficial anyways, because you can take the benfo/pyridoxamine with high carb meals, and the other b's at specific times throughout your day.

whats your source for buying these nootropics?

[Pike]

Desmopressin questions: I used the nasal spray. I probably used it a little more often than I should have. (ended up being twice or sometimes three times a week). The memory boost was pretty consistent every time. I've never tried Noopept, but if it's close to vassopressin, it'd be something worth looking into. The link blazewind provided definately provides some interesting info. Currently, the price is just way too high for my taste, and there's more literature supporting vaso/desmo-pressin (even some supporting mental enhancement in completely healthy people, though there is also conflicting research). After using it as often as I did, I DID notice a bit of "withdrawl." I'll certainly say that the desmo-withdrawl I had after using it 4 days consecutively (for midterms) was... less than pleasant. Had a few days of the screaming meanies followed by another week of constipation. For those who want to try it, I'd be very cautious with eating or drinking on desmopressin. You eat too much and you'll be too distracted by your stomach ache to want to study anything. The literature supports "above par" memory enhancement at administration of 40 micrograms, which is quite high imo. The nasal spray delivers 5mcg per spray (giving you 50 sprays per bottle). My body's chemistry did not luck out on me in terms of sensitivty to it and I would use higher amounts of it (you might be better off). 4 sprays (20mcg) seems to do the trick. Nothing that I combined desmopressin with really gave it "synergy" (in the sense that it was more effective as a combo than alone in either), however, it is a nice addition to things that already have a very noticable effect. I wouldn't really call desmopressin a great nootropic, as i can tell already it's something that wouldn't be safe to take in the long term. Definately something to use on an "as needed" basis. Literature supports 40mcg per day (i'll find the link) which might be okay if you only plan to use it maybe once a week or less, but don't push more than 20 if you're young like me or don't plan on using it infrequently. I'd like to imagine that one would perhaps to a cycle (5days on, weekends off) of maybe 5-10mcg a day, but I don't think i'd volunteer for that one.

Oh, one final note: Even though the vendors for Desmo say it's okay at room temp, I'd store it in the fridge anyway. Preferably, in something air-tight. I probably lost a good 4 or 5 sprays in terms of evaporation leaving it at room temp. Also, when trying it, DON'T sniff. What worked the best for me was spraying it in each nostril one at a time, then pinching my nose and holding my head straight up, that way, any desmo that might drip out in the front can get absorbed a little better.

There were only a couple things that stacked really well with Desmo, most of which were stims.

Here are the things that I've had great success with in terms of stacking with Desmopressin (ordered in efficacy).
Adderall (or other PEAs) - Wowzers. This was a real eye opener. My reccomendation for those who want to try this, administer the desmo after the amps. There isn't really a "synergistic" effect so much. However, the memory boost you get from both do seem to stack on. In the least, the water retention from desmo seems to really cut down on the dry mouth from the stimulants.
Hydergine - This is another great combo for those who don't want that stimulant effect. The adrenal antagonistic effect it has makes it a bit more of a mellowed concentration. The memory boost makes it a good study stack.

Things that did NOT stack well with desmo:
AChE Inhibitors - One might think this combo would be awesome. Don't. One of the worst brain fogs I've ever had. Just stared off into space for 15-20 minutes at a time. Got nothing done.

This was my "midterms stack" that proved most effective(involving desmopressin). Before you read this, know that I DO NOT condone the recreational use of stimulants, nor do I believe in relying on nootropics or ANY substance/supplement to hold up one's academic career. This stack was made out of pure necessity (as in, the necessity to cover 12 sections of integral calculus, 4 chapters of second semester accounting, 5 chapters of physio-biology, and 4 chapters of physio-psychology) as well as for the purpose of RETAINING as much information as possible in a short amount of time.
PRELOAD (the night before):
Giant cup of Grapefruit juice - You'd be amazed at how many nootropics out there are metabolized via the CYP 1A2 and 3A4 system. to name a few: Vinpocetine, All ergolines, Sulbutiamine, essentially all of the fat-soluble nootropics (look it up, found in literature)
Choline sources - Seems to diminish effects of adderall when co-administered, help out when preloaded, though.
Melatonin (and other antioxidants) - For cleaning up my body as much as I can before I polute it with my crammer stack
Stack
Piracetam - 2400mg on an empty stomach, because it seems to synergize with everything else.
Magnesium - To reduce neurotoxicity. 100mg once every 4 or 5 hours. Careful with magnesium or you'll end up with diarrhea.
Vitamin B6 - 100mg to help with impulse control. From what I understand, those with ADHD already have certain B-vitamin deficiences and Adderall can deplete those even further.
Adderall - 25mg XR (what I'm prescribed, once every 8 hours) with a FULL glass of water.
Nicotine - Start off smoking one cigarette (or lozenge for you non-smokers) to potentiate the amps, then slap on 1/4th of a 21mg nicotine patch (or what comes out to 5.25mg) for all day potentiation.
Hydergine - Takes the edge off of adderall.
Desmopressin - 2 sprays each nostril
Pepcid AC - Antacid effect decreased urinary elimination of amps, acid-reducers help for all-day acid reduction (better than taking in a bunch of antacids thoughout the day)

This stack is by no means "enjoyable." It has no recreational value, and has a very numbing effect on your emotions. But for those people who need to cram a lot of info fast, it will work. The stimulant will dehydrate your body rather quickly, so drinking water isn't too much of a problem.

bryce126: I buy my nootropics/supplements from a variety of different vendors. BN, IAS, Iherb, QHI, CN, etc. Surprisingly, I haven't bought from RI yet, but only because of price on some items. If price wasn't an issue, I probably would buy from them all the time because after my terrible experience with Ginkgo, I realize the importance of the credentials that RI has earned for itself (cGMP, etc). PM me if you have any questions in particular about a specific noot/vendor.

As a side note: For those who are on tight budgets, it might be a good idea to find out which nootropics are metabolized via CYP 1A2 and 3A4 enzymes. One cup of grapefruit or pomegranite juice might make your 10mg of vinpocetine feel like 40mg.

[Mr.Bananas]

Its always interesting to hear what people have to say about the supps they tried, keep up the good work!
I think im gonna try hydergine now... I just need to read some more about it.

[blazewind]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

AVP(1-9) is vasopressin
AVP(4-9) is a metabolite of of vasopressin that seems to just have cognitive effects and noopept was based off it it
NC-1900 seems to be a 1000X stronger version of AVP(4-9)

Also I have found a new drug to investigate:

NC-1900, an active fragment analog of arginine vasopressin, improves learning and memory deficits induced by beta-amyloid protein in rats.
Tanaka T, Yamada K, Senzaki K, Narimatsu H, Nishimura K, Kameyama T, Nabeshima T.

Department of Neuropsychopharmacology and Hospital Pharmacy, Nagoya University School of Medicine, Japan.

We have reported that the continuous infusion of beta-amyloid protein-(1-40) into the rat cerebral ventricle produces learning and memory deficits accompanied by dysfunction in the cholinergic and dopaminergic systems. L-Pyroglutamyl-L-asparaginyl-L-seryl-L-prolyl-L-arginylglycinamide (NC-1900), an active fragment analog of arginine vasopressin in the rat brain, is a stable peptide with a five-fold longer half-life than that of arginine vasopressin-(4-9). In the present study, we examined the effects of NC-1900 on learning and memory deficits in beta-amyloid protein-(1-40)-infused rats. The rats were injected subcutaneously with NC-1900 (0.1 and 1 ng kg(-1)) once a day throughout the period of behavioral examination. In the beta-amyloid protein-infused rats, learning and memory in water maze and passive avoidance tasks were impaired compared with these in the control rats. NC-1900 prevented the learning and memory deficits in beta-amyloid protein-infused rats. Moreover, NC-1900 tended to increase the choline acetyltransferase activity in the frontal cortex of the beta-amyloid protein-infused rats. These results suggested that NC-1900 could be useful for the treatment of patients with Alzheimer's disease.

Effect of pretraining administration of NC-1900, a vasopressin fragment analog, on memory performance in non- or CO2-amnesic mice.
Sato T, Tanaka K, Teramoto T, Ohnishi Y, Hirate K, Irifune M, Nishikawa T.

Department of Applied Pharmacology, Kagoshima University Graduate School of Medical & Dental Sciences, Sakuragaoka-8, Kagoshima 890-8544, Japan. tomsato@dentb.hal.kagoshima-u.ac.jp

In the present study, we investigated the facilitative effect of NC-1900, a new arginine vasopressin (AVP(1-9)) fragment analog, on memory performance in eight-arm radial maze or passive avoidance (PA) tasks in nonamnesic and amnesic (PA tasks only) mice. In the radial maze, all injections (subcutaneous) were given daily 60 min before each trail. NC-1900 (1 ng/kg)-treated animals showed enhancement of performance, and AVP(4-9) (1 microg/kg), an AVP(1-9) fragment, had similar effects, although the effective dose was 1000-fold higher. In the PA task, all drugs were administrated subcutaneously 60 min before the acquisition trial (Acq.), and the amnesic mice were exposed to CO(2) just after the Acq. NC-1900 (1 ng/kg) enhanced the memory performance of nonamnesic mice and ameliorated CO(2)-induced amnesia. AVP(4-9) (1 microg/kg) had a similar effect, although only at higher doses, while AVP(1-9) (0.1-1 microg/kg) had no effect. The facilitating effect of NC-1900 on nonamnesic mice was inhibited by coinjection [Pmp(1)-Tyr(Me)(2)]-AVP (Pmp,Tyr-AVP; 1 microg/kg), a V(1A) antagonist, but not by OPC-31260, a vasopressin(2) (V(2)) antagonist. The effect of NC-1900 on CO(2)-induced amnesia was also decreased by coinjection of Pmp,Tyr-AVP or [deamino-Pen(1), Me-Tyr(2)]-AVP (10 microg/kg), both of which are V(1) antagonists. These results suggested that NC-1900 has a more potent effect on facilitation of memory via the V(1A) receptor than AVP(4-9) in non- and CO(2)-amnesic conditions.


Facilitative effect of a novel AVP fragment analog, NC-1900, on memory retention and recall in mice.
Sato T, Tanaka K, Teramoto T, Ohnishi Y, Hirate K, Irifune M, Nishikawa T.

Department of Applied Pharmacology, Kagoshima University Graduate School of Medical and Dental Sciences, Sakuragaoka 8, 890-8544, Japan. tomsato@dentb.hal.kagoshima-u.ac.jp

In order to determine the mechanism of action of a new AVP(4-9) analog, NC-1900, on memory processes, memory retention and retrieval tests were conducted in a step-through passive avoidance (PA) task in mice. The administration of NC-1900 facilitated memory retention and retrieval in the PA task through vasopressin1A (V1A) receptors but not V2 receptors. The effect of NC-1900 on memory retention test performance appeared to be due to activation of the protein kinase C (PKC) signaling pathway via V1A receptors; however, the modulation of PKC was not essential for the facilitative effect of the new peptide in the retrieval test. The facilitation of memory retrieval by NC-1900 may also be mediated by other non-PKC-dependent signaling pathways, such as the phospholipase C-inositol trisphosphate pathway.

Edited by blazewind, 18 May 2009 - 04:44 PM.

[lacura]

Hello, thanks for the info. I would up your fish oils to 2-3g a day, it will only benefit you in more ways than one. I have recently been diagnosed with ADD. Good to hear about the Piracetam, i ordered some Piracetam last week from the states. In the meantime i am trying new things such as hemp seed which has the exact ratio of omega 3 and omega 6 for us and so for that reason i think we should be eating it. Unlike flaxseed oil, hempseed oil can be used continuously without developing a deficiency or other imbalance of EFAs. It has a excellent cheap source of ALA and gamma-linolenic acid which can help for ADHD/ADD plus a excellent amino acid profile.

Edited by lacura, 18 May 2009 - 10:12 PM.

[Parleton Trent]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

I think the big question is to find the vendor that supplies the more potent noopepts. The ones that Team Life Research have are somewhat mixed (sometime good, other time not) in potency in the literature, if you have money to waste by all mean. I am holding out for more stronger version as mentioned in recent literature.

Even if a vendor has it, it must have cost us a fortune...

Edited by Parleton Trent, 18 May 2009 - 10:08 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

You seem like the adventurous type Pike -- I'm surprised you haven't experimented with memantine for the prevention/reduction of adderall tolerance and neurotoxicity. I don't think a single person has tried it that has not been pleased with the results (myself included). There are several threads on this topic that span both ImmInst and the Mind & Muscle forum.

[blazewind]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

I think the big question is to find the vendor that supplies the more potent noopepts. The ones that Team Life Research have are somewhat mixed (sometime good, other time not) in potency in the literature, if you have money to waste by all mean. I am holding out for more stronger version as mentioned in recent literature.

Even if a vendor has it, it must have cost us a fortune...

Read the noopept topic again, pharmacy1010.com has it for $16 a box, this is the official noopept from Russia.

You seem like the adventurous type Pike -- I'm surprised you haven't experimented with memantine for the prevention/reduction of adderall tolerance and neurotoxicity. I don't think a single person has tried it that has not been pleased with the results (myself included). There are several threads on this topic that span both ImmInst and the Mind & Muscle forum.

I 2nd this, if you had good results with magnesium, try memantine.

Edited by blazewind, 18 May 2009 - 10:26 PM.

[lacura]

Lecithin maybe a poor choline source but i am feeling a calming benefit 2nd day in taking 3x1350mg capsules for my ADD, I heard good things about phosphatidylserine for ADD/ADHD so another reason i taking the lecithin. it meant to help prolonged magnesium deficiency.

Whats the highest amount of lecithin/choline dose to take a day for ADD and does it need anything else along side taking it in high doses? ok i found out. The tolerable upper intake level for adults of choline has been set at 3.5 grams per day.

One tablespoon of lecithin granules provides about 1,725 mg of phosphatidylcholine and 250 mg choline, a little less than the content in an egg. The "commercial lecithin" in most lecithin supplements is a mixture of phosphatidylcholine and other phospholipids extracted from soybeans. Commercial lecithin in granular form contains about 23 percent phosphatidylcholine; lecithin capsules provide about 15 percent. One capsule provides about 180 mg of phosphatidylcholine and 25 mg of choline; 10 or 12 capsules would match the amount of lecithin and choline in a tablespoon of granules or in an egg. Supplemental choline also can be taken in the form of choline salts, choline bitartrate and choline chloride, but lecithin appears to provide a more bioavailable, timed-release source.

Edited by lacura, 18 May 2009 - 11:32 PM.

[doctordog]

have the fibrosis risks in hydergine mainly been linked to long-term use? - in other words, should it be pretty safe to cycle in now-and-again, as needed? also Pike, i'm curious if anything in your stack has promoted in increase in written fluency (aside from the 'racetams, that is)?

[Guacamolium]

I agree Pike, Hydergine definitely rocks. I don't take mine all that often, but when I do - it's definitely in my top 5 cognitive enhancers. Good post!

[Jacovis]

Pyridoxamine - A completely-out-of-the-blue help. I experimented with it because I was aware that those with ADHD typically have B-vitamin deficiencies and I had already been taking b-vitamins as a regular part of my day-to-day regimen. Surprisingly, it seemed to add an extra "kick" to my regimen.

Hey Pike excellent review!
What brand of Vitamin B6 did you take? I am assuming you bought something like Life Extension Foundation's 50 mg Pyridoxamine caps.
Was it 50 mg sufficient to get some kind of effect for you?
How would you describe the effect (I haven't seen much on B6 and impulse control)?
Have you tried other types of B6? I was thinking Source Naturals Coenzymated Pyridoxal-L-Phosphate (sublingual) looks to be the most bioavailable form of this vital vitamin...

[Parleton Trent]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

I think the big question is to find the vendor that supplies the more potent noopepts. The ones that Team Life Research have are somewhat mixed (sometime good, other time not) in potency in the literature, if you have money to waste by all mean. I am holding out for more stronger version as mentioned in recent literature.

Even if a vendor has it, it must have cost us a fortune...

Read the noopept topic again, pharmacy1010.com has it for $16 a box, this is the official noopept from Russia.

You seem like the adventurous type Pike -- I'm surprised you haven't experimented with memantine for the prevention/reduction of adderall tolerance and neurotoxicity. I don't think a single person has tried it that has not been pleased with the results (myself included). There are several threads on this topic that span both ImmInst and the Mind & Muscle forum.

I 2nd this, if you had good results with magnesium, try memantine.

blazewind: I was referring to the more potent version that are in experimental stage right now as published during this year (CX-1000+ or something like that). The one that the website has is probably in the mid CX-500+/600+. These versions showed up as mixed result in the literature.


Pike: aside from international vendors, do you know any domestic ones that sell vasopressin?

Edited by Parleton Trent, 19 May 2009 - 10:46 PM.

[blazewind]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

I think the big question is to find the vendor that supplies the more potent noopepts. The ones that Team Life Research have are somewhat mixed (sometime good, other time not) in potency in the literature, if you have money to waste by all mean. I am holding out for more stronger version as mentioned in recent literature.

Even if a vendor has it, it must have cost us a fortune...

Read the noopept topic again, pharmacy1010.com has it for $16 a box, this is the official noopept from Russia.

You seem like the adventurous type Pike -- I'm surprised you haven't experimented with memantine for the prevention/reduction of adderall tolerance and neurotoxicity. I don't think a single person has tried it that has not been pleased with the results (myself included). There are several threads on this topic that span both ImmInst and the Mind & Muscle forum.

I 2nd this, if you had good results with magnesium, try memantine.

blazewind: I was referring to the more potent version that are in experimental stage right now as published during this year (CX-1000+ or something like that). The one that the website has is probably in the mid CX-500+/600+. These versions showed up as mixed result in the literature.


Pike: aside from international vendors, do you know any domestic ones that sell vasopressin?

There are not multiple "noopepts"

We are not talking about the same drugs.

noopept is not an ampakine like the CX's, and was not developed by Cortex Pharmaceuticals, CX's were based off of aniracetam, noopept was developed in Russia based off of piracetam and vasopressin, although related, they are branched out enough that they are pretty different so I would not say the CX's are "more potent."

noopept is an analog of vasopressin fragment 4-9, and since he responds to desmopressin, which is a vasopressin analog, this may give him the desmopressin effect without the bad side effects he was talking about.

I am trying to confirm a theory that noopept would substitute for desmopressin without side effects here.

noopept currently has more published studies than all the CX's combined, and I am not saying the CX's are unimportant, but noopept should not be substituted for ampakines as a replacement for desmopressin in this case to attain this "desmopressin photographic memory effect" as they are too different.

Edited by blazewind, 20 May 2009 - 06:13 AM.

[Parleton Trent]

hmmm, I think you should really try noopept with your biochemistry and stack, it may give you the desmopressin effect constantly without the water and digestion trouble....

I think the big question is to find the vendor that supplies the more potent noopepts. The ones that Team Life Research have are somewhat mixed (sometime good, other time not) in potency in the literature, if you have money to waste by all mean. I am holding out for more stronger version as mentioned in recent literature.

Even if a vendor has it, it must have cost us a fortune...

Read the noopept topic again, pharmacy1010.com has it for $16 a box, this is the official noopept from Russia.

You seem like the adventurous type Pike -- I'm surprised you haven't experimented with memantine for the prevention/reduction of adderall tolerance and neurotoxicity. I don't think a single person has tried it that has not been pleased with the results (myself included). There are several threads on this topic that span both ImmInst and the Mind & Muscle forum.

I 2nd this, if you had good results with magnesium, try memantine.

blazewind: I was referring to the more potent version that are in experimental stage right now as published during this year (CX-1000+ or something like that). The one that the website has is probably in the mid CX-500+/600+. These versions showed up as mixed result in the literature.


Pike: aside from international vendors, do you know any domestic ones that sell vasopressin?

There are not multiple "noopepts"

We are not talking about the same drugs.

noopept is not an ampakine like the CX's, and was not developed by Cortex Pharmaceuticals, CX's were based off of aniracetam, noopept was developed in Russia based off of piracetam and vasopressin, although related, they are branched out enough that they are pretty different so I would not say the CX's are "more potent."

noopept is an analog of vasopressin fragment 4-9, and since he responds to desmopressin, which is a vasopressin analog, this may give him the desmopressin effect without the bad side effects he was talking about.

I am trying to confirm a theory that noopept would substitute for desmopressin without side effects here.

noopept currently has more published studies than all the CX's combined, and I am not saying the CX's are unimportant, but noopept should not be substituted for ampakines as a replacement for desmopressin in this case to attain this "desmopressin photographic memory effect" as they are too different.

Thanks for clearing it up Blazewind. I was too lazy to look up. With regard "noopept currently has more published studies than all CX's combined". I did look up the result using the term 'noopept' vs 'ampakine' . Seem like since 2004, there are about 60 articles related to noopept and about 616 studies related to ampakine. Since 2009, there are about 5 articles regarding noopept vs 36 articles for ampakine. Assuming within those articles there are studies, reviews, meta-analyses and what not, I still think there are more studies related to ampakines.

Maybe because noopept is only study by Russians and the West mostly focused on ampakine, and that it is a recent thing? Just wondering if you know any peer-review or noopept experiments done from the West/U.S, since majority of studies on noopepts I looked up are from Russians.

I still hesitate about the Russians' studies to be honest

[Pike]

Wow, nice to see the positive feedback!

okay, so, addressing questions one by one:

blazewind: That NC-1900 information is just terribly intriguing. Based off of that information, it makes me even more anxious to try noopept!

FunkOdyssey: Actually, I've been dying to try memantine. Of all the NMDA antagonists most available to people, it seems to have the most protective effect, an even mildly repairative effect on glutamate damage; the Mustang of NMDA antagonists. I probably would have already tried it if it weren't for the ugly price tag, too! Even in bulk it edges th $100 mark. I've been able to try a lot of noots/supps, but not because I have a lot of money; I'm just pretty good at budgeting. =D

Lacura: Tolerable upper intake is set at 3.5, but honestly, that is WAY too much choline IMO. Put it this way: I started off using high amounts (1 gram+) of Centrophenoxine for my choline source, but near the end, 250 was more than enough for the entire day at breakfast.

doctordog: All of the literature on the fibrosis risk was actually linked to chronic use of ergot alkaloids (hydergine, bromocriptine, etc.) in people who smoked or were former smokers. To most, that's not really a concern. To me however, I am a former smoker, so if I were to use hydergine again I'd only use it in 6 week cycles, and maybe repeat once every 4-6 months. In terms of written fluency... yes and no. When it comes to creative writing, or something I'm particularly interested in... absolutely. However, I wouldn't say that it's directly boosting it. It's more along the lines of me thinking more creatively and already having a sufficient vocabulary to put my thoughts down in writing. So, yes, boosted my written fluency, but no, in the sense that it was more of a boost in general creativity that happened to trickle down into my writing. In terms of the parts of my stack that did that the most without being a 'racetam, i'd attribute it to the idebenone+sulbutiamine.

Visionary7903: Thank you! Unfortunately, I have NOT tried any other forms of vitamin b6. Pyrithioxine, however, would most certainly be next on my list of ones to try. In terms of brand, yes, I did use the LEF brand of Pyridoxamine and 50mg was more than sufficient. I haven't looked up any particular reason why, but it had very good additive effects when I combined it with my normal B-50 complex. In terms of impulse control, I don't imagine it would help out people that don't have ADHD. I tried it for 2 reasons: 1) mainly because ADHD'ers have been shown to consistently have lower levels of B-vitamins, and 2) High protein intake (which my diet definately has) AND long-term use of centrally acting dopamine-acting stimulants (and even the synthesis of dopamine itself) can deplete vitamin b6 levels. In those with ADHD, this can manifest in even MORE compulsive behavior and a lack of focus. Trust me when I say that a harsh stimulant is anything but helpful if you're b6 defficient.

Parleton Trent: The only vendors I've found for Desmo were all foreign. I think that's the only way for now unless you have a perscription for it.


I have more to say but I am really late for an appointment right now, so I'll post again later.

Sincerely,
Pike.

[FunkOdyssey]

FunkOdyssey: Actually, I've been dying to try memantine. Of all the NMDA antagonists most available to people, it seems to have the most protective effect, an even mildly repairative effect on glutamate damage; the Mustang of NMDA antagonists. I probably would have already tried it if it weren't for the ugly price tag, too! Even in bulk it edges th $100 mark. I've been able to try a lot of noots/supps, but not because I have a lot of money; I'm just pretty good at budgeting. =D

My source of memantine (alldaychemist.com) charges $10.50 for 30 x 10mg pills, so the total monthly cost for most uses would be $21.

[blazewind]

Thanks for clearing it up Blazewind. I was too lazy to look up. With regard "noopept currently has more published studies than all CX's combined". I did look up the result using the term 'noopept' vs 'ampakine' . Seem like since 2004, there are about 60 articles related to noopept and about 616 studies related to ampakine. Since 2009, there are about 5 articles regarding noopept vs 36 articles for ampakine. Assuming within those articles there are studies, reviews, meta-analyses and what not, I still think there are more studies related to ampakines.

Maybe because noopept is only study by Russians and the West mostly focused on ampakine, and that it is a recent thing? Just wondering if you know any peer-review or noopept experiments done from the West/U.S, since majority of studies on noopepts I looked up are from Russians.

I still hesitate about the Russians' studies to be honest

Noopept has been licensed to a United States company, I have no idea what they are doing with it or if they are testing it yet.
Which drugs are actually released is a matter of luck, funding, and bureaucracy. Keep in mind drug companies are constantly battling each other.

About "noopept currently has more published studies than all CX's combined" I should not have said that, but I was talking about actual published studies where they experimented with the drugs in question and just the CX Cortex Pharmaceuticals line of ampakines that you mentioned, there are other companies working on ampakines. As for unpublished clinical trials, who knows, I am pissed I do not have the data...

Edited by blazewind, 20 May 2009 - 07:40 PM.

[Singularity]

Pike, I too appreciate your thoughtful post. I am also ADD and just added a B complex to my regimen along with some brewer's yeast. After getting burned-out quickly (after 3 days) of Adrafinil, I figured I just didn't have the mental endurance to handle all the work my brain was being pushed to do, so I added the B's and get better sleep now. I think the B's help as well as the Panax and Siberian ginseng. Could you answer a few more questions?

What other adaptogens do you take?

I can't find any legit-looking suppliers for Sulbutiamine; could you recommend one? If you would rather PM me, please do!

FYI, my regimen:

Piracetam - great.
Centrophenoxine - pretty good.
Carlson's Code Liver Oil - you might like it better than gelcaps; lemon flavor makes it easy and it's high quality with no contaminants.
Panax/Sierian Gienseng
L-DOPA - haven't noticed anything at all with a regular dose; hasn't helped with the RLS.
Nicotine patch - An old crutch from my pre-noot days; I guess I'm hooked now, but will try to ween myself off. But, once after first starting on the patch while on 5-HTP, I laid down and instantly and spontaneously had a totally still moment in the Void, something I had been trying to attain through meditation for years. It was awesome.

Anyway, good luck!

[doctordog]

doctordog: All of the literature on the fibrosis risk was actually linked to chronic use of ergot alkaloids (hydergine, bromocriptine, etc.) in people who smoked or were former smokers. To most, that's not really a concern. To me however, I am a former smoker, so if I were to use hydergine again I'd only use it in 6 week cycles, and maybe repeat once every 4-6 months. In terms of written fluency... yes and no. When it comes to creative writing, or something I'm particularly interested in... absolutely. However, I wouldn't say that it's directly boosting it. It's more along the lines of me thinking more creatively and already having a sufficient vocabulary to put my thoughts down in writing. So, yes, boosted my written fluency, but no, in the sense that it was more of a boost in general creativity that happened to trickle down into my writing. In terms of the parts of my stack that did that the most without being a 'racetam, i'd attribute it to the idebenone+sulbutiamine.

hey, potentially silly question, but what constitutes being a smoker? for the past 2 years, i've smoked socially (i.e. 1-3 cigarettes at parties, strictly on weekends), and have not smoked at all since the beginning of this year, nor do i plan to. would that place me at risk?

[lacura]

for my choline source, but near the end, 250 was more than enough for the entire day at breakfast.

it just so happens 2 large eggs provide 252mg of excellent choline plus you getting vitamins A, B2, B12, B6, D, E, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, phosphorus, and other micronutrients.

Edited by lacura, 21 May 2009 - 02:47 PM.