43 replies to this topic

[Delta Gamma]

It may be worth noting that Bacomind is apparently a extract of both aerial and root parts according to this page:
http://www.swissherb...info.aspx?id=53

Damn, I hope I don't seem like some kind of marketing rep by posting this kind of link with my post count haha.

[aLurker]

It may be worth noting that Bacomind is apparently a extract of both aerial and root parts according to this page:
http://www.swissherb...info.aspx?id=53

Damn, I hope I don't seem like some kind of marketing rep by posting this kind of link with my post count haha.

Haha I wouldn't worry about that. Is the root included in traditional use as well? As the cynic I am I just suppose it might be cheaper to include the root too. I haven't seen any comparative studies between BacoMind and regular standardized extract either nor have I heard any explanation why BacoMind would be better. Perhaps I should contact the makers of this unless someone here already knows.

[Delta Gamma]

It may be worth noting that Bacomind is apparently a extract of both aerial and root parts according to this page:
http://www.swissherb...info.aspx?id=53

Damn, I hope I don't seem like some kind of marketing rep by posting this kind of link with my post count haha.

Haha I wouldn't worry about that. Is the root included in traditional use as well? As the cynic I am I just suppose it might be cheaper to include the root too. I haven't seen any comparative studies between BacoMind and regular standardized extract either nor have I heard any explanation why BacoMind would be better. Perhaps I should contact the makers of this unless someone here already knows.

From what I've seen on the Bacomind site it seems to have a larger range of actives than the bacoside A and bacoside B only extracts, though to what effect I can't say. If I find out anything else about this extract I'll be sure to post it.

But, back to the topic of fatigue it seems that Bacopa may inhibit the activity of creatine kinase though I'll admit its a little bit of a stretch with this study.

[aLurker]

From what I've seen on the Bacomind site it seems to have a larger range of actives than the bacoside A and bacoside B only extracts, though to what effect I can't say. If I find out anything else about this extract I'll be sure to post it.

But, back to the topic of fatigue it seems that Bacopa may inhibit the activity of creatine kinase though I'll admit its a little bit of a stretch with this study.

Thanks.

I totally fail to see how a study using thawed rat hearts and a decrease of creatine kinase-MB would induce fatigue. This could be a lack of knowledge how creatine kinase work though, I've just read the wiki article.

From a purely subjective standpoint I've been feeling very tired ever since I started bacopa again.

The upside is that I didn't need any melatonin to go to sleep yesterday and my sleep was amazingly deep with vivid, pleasant dreams that I can remember which is quite unusual since I usually need to force myself to write the dreams down when I wake up in order to remember them. Too bad it was so hard to get out of bed and I want to sleep during the day too. :/

Well... not today since I took a low dose of adrafinil and had a very productive day. I stayed on task most of the day and that's unusual.

I hope it's just nocebo or that fatigue will subside, or perhaps I can combine it with something to reduce the side effects. I don't think adrafinil is a viable long-term solution even though it works very well. Suggestions?

[Delta Gamma]

From what I've seen on the Bacomind site it seems to have a larger range of actives than the bacoside A and bacoside B only extracts, though to what effect I can't say. If I find out anything else about this extract I'll be sure to post it.

But, back to the topic of fatigue it seems that Bacopa may inhibit the activity of creatine kinase though I'll admit its a little bit of a stretch with this study.

Thanks.

I totally fail to see how a study using thawed rat hearts and a decrease of creatine kinase-MB would induce fatigue. This could be a lack of knowledge how creatine kinase work though, I've just read the wiki article.

From a purely subjective standpoint I've been feeling very tired ever since I started bacopa again.

The upside is that I didn't need any melatonin to go to sleep yesterday and my sleep was amazingly deep with vivid, pleasant dreams that I can remember which is quite unusual since I usually need to force myself to write the dreams down when I wake up in order to remember them. Too bad it was so hard to get out of bed and I want to sleep during the day too. :/

Well... not today since I took a low dose of adrafinil and had a very productive day. I stayed on task most of the day and that's unusual.

I hope it's just nocebo or that fatigue will subside, or perhaps I can combine it with something to reduce the side effects. I don't think adrafinil is a viable long-term solution even though it works very well. Suggestions?

My background is cell biology, and to the best of my knowledge inhibition of creatine kinase results in a decrease of energy reserves (in the form of phosphocreatine) particularly in the muscle and CNS. A bit of a stretch admittedly, though it is quite possible that it could be responsible for fatigue as phosphocreatine is generally responsible for the generation of ATP during 5-10 second bursts of strenuous effort. It has also been shown that creatine (and therefore phosphocreatine) deficiencies can lead to fatigue and creatine supplementation in vegetarians acts as a nootropic.

With that said, perhaps creatine supplementation, or from my experience adding ginkgo and ginseng to your dose might lead to the results you seem to be looking for.

Also, do you eat a diet high in meat? And if so, what kind of meat(s) do you eat?

[aLurker]

My background is cell biology, and to the best of my knowledge inhibition of creatine kinase results in a decrease of energy reserves (in the form of phosphocreatine) particularly in the muscle and CNS. A bit of a stretch admittedly, though it is quite possible that it could be responsible for fatigue as phosphocreatine is generally responsible for the generation of ATP during 5-10 second bursts of strenuous effort. It has also been shown that creatine (and therefore phosphocreatine) deficiencies can lead to fatigue and creatine supplementation in vegetarians acts as a nootropic.

With that said, perhaps creatine supplementation, or from my experience adding ginkgo and ginseng to your dose might lead to the results you seem to be looking for.

Also, do you eat a diet high in meat? And if so, what kind of meat(s) do you eat?

Thanks for your suggestions and for elaborating about your hypothesis a bit. Nice to see someone with a relevant background and an interest in science.

Hmm now that you mention it I haven't been eating that much meat during the day but I've been eating a lot of meat for dinner. I might want to switch it up a little and supplement with about 5 ml of creatine as well. I've got a bag just laying around since I've read the creatine studies (from memory I think 2g was about the dosage they used). I'll throw in some piracetam too for good measure and be sure to take my ALCAR more regularly, I didn't have those the last time I tried bacopa so hopefully they will help. I've been looking into gingko and ginseng too.

[Delta Gamma]

Thanks for your suggestions and for elaborating about your hypothesis a bit. Nice to see someone with a relevant background and an interest in science.

Hmm now that you mention it I haven't been eating that much meat during the day but I've been eating a lot of meat for dinner. I might want to switch it up a little and supplement with about 5 ml of creatine as well. I've got a bag just laying around since I've read the creatine studies (from memory I think 2g was about the dosage they used). I'll throw in some piracetam too for good measure and be sure to take my ALCAR more regularly, I didn't have those the last time I tried bacopa so hopefully they will help. I've been looking into gingko and ginseng too.

No problem haha, I've also noticed that a few of the larger studies on bacopa tend to have muscle fatigue as a side effect which lends a little credibility to my theory. I'd say start at 1 or 2g creatine and see how that works out for you, then try ginkgo and ginseng (separately for the sake of SCIENCE!) or together like I have, then maybe ginkgo+creatine+ginseng.

I take about 5g creatine 3 times a week before I head to the gym so that may be compounding my results, I think I'll drop it when I do my cardio days and see what happens.

Another thing which could cause fatigue is Ca2+ blocking, though that's a massive stretch even for the guy who just linked a study on rat hearts to human fatigue haha. I do some student work in a cardiovascular pharmacology lab so if I get a chance I'll ask my prof if any of this study could possibly relate to humans.

[Delta Gamma]

Just thought I'd source drop a bit:

http://www.nutraingr...o-fatigue-study
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11985880

Even if my theory about the inhibition of creatine kinase (CK) is incorrect, creatine should help increase resistance to fatigue. Also, it appears that Bacopa may modulate creatine kinase activity from the results of a few studies (google scholar creatine kinase and bacopa), so that makes things a little more complex though in general I've noticed most studies show a decrease in CK activity.

Ginseng is compared in this study. At megadoses both seem to shrink adrenal tissue, but the human relevance to this is probably slim, CK activity is reduced by Bacopa here as well.

Some interesting neurochem I don't have time to look over right now

Oh snap a metareview!

[aLurker]

Thanks for the links, a couple of comments:
The meta review is from 2005 and several other studies have been done since then.
In the comparative study both ginseng and bacopa reversed stress induced changes in adrenal gland weight which to me sounds like a good thing and I wouldn't draw any further conclusions from that.
The creatine abstracts were fun to read. Perhaps I should dose it several times daily though, despite the inconvenience.

Here is what wiki has to say on the subject:

Endogenous serum or plasma creatine concentrations in healthy adults are normally in a range of 2–12 mg/L. A single 5 g (5000 mg) oral dose in healthy adults results in a peak plasma creatine level of approximately 120 mg/L at 1–2 hours post-ingestion. Creatine has a fairly short elimination half-life, averaging just less than 3 hours, so to maintain an elevated plasma level it would be necessary to take small oral doses every 3–6 hours throughout the day. After the "loading dose" period (1–2 weeks, 12-24g a day), it is no longer necessary to maintain a consistently high serum level of Cr. As with most supplements, each person has their own genetic "preset" amount of creatine they can hold. The rest is eliminated out of the body as waste. Creatine is consumed by the body fairly quickly. And if one wishes to maintain the high concentration of Cr ,Post - loading dose, 2-5g daily is the standard amount to intake.

Edited by aLurker, 24 November 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[Delta Gamma]

Thanks for the links, a couple of comments:
The meta review is from 2005 and several other studies have been done since then.
In the comparative study both ginseng and bacopa reversed stress induced changes in adrenal gland weight which to me sounds like a good thing and I wouldn't draw any further conclusions from that.
The creatine abstracts were fun to read. Perhaps I should dose it several times daily though, despite the inconvenience.

Here is what wiki has to say on the subject:

Endogenous serum or plasma creatine concentrations in healthy adults are normally in a range of 2–12 mg/L. A single 5 g (5000 mg) oral dose in healthy adults results in a peak plasma creatine level of approximately 120 mg/L at 1–2 hours post-ingestion. Creatine has a fairly short elimination half-life, averaging just less than 3 hours, so to maintain an elevated plasma level it would be necessary to take small oral doses every 3–6 hours throughout the day. After the "loading dose" period (1–2 weeks, 12-24g a day), it is no longer necessary to maintain a consistently high serum level of Cr. As with most supplements, each person has their own genetic "preset" amount of creatine they can hold. The rest is eliminated out of the body as waste. Creatine is consumed by the body fairly quickly. And if one wishes to maintain the high concentration of Cr ,Post - loading dose, 2-5g daily is the standard amount to intake.

In my experience its easiest just to mix in a set amount into a clear waterbottle with some sort of volume gauge on the side, 5g creatine/carnation breakfast in a 750mL bottle is great if I'm biking or don't have a chance to eat at work. its also a great way to space out some of the better tasting supplements over the course of the day, my friend does it with a bunch of magnesium taurate, d-serine, creatine, and some other things I can't recall.

I'll see if I can find a more recent metareview and time to review the neurochem study, but right now I'm in the midst of putting off my eukaryotic cell bio paper =/.

Damn you internet and your distracting wonders...

Edited by Delta Gamma, 25 November 2010 - 12:16 AM.

[distinct]

I just started this supp today, and I haven't been this tired since I was on SSRIs years and years ago. I held off on my vote because I like to give these things a fair chance; I think taking my dose at night is the next step, and if sedation continues, perhaps cutting my dose in half and going from there is in order. I'm on 450+mg (20% bacosides). I *do* feel calmer, and not just because I'm sleepy either. Obviously it's too soon to tell if it's doing anything for my cognitive performance.

Edited by distinct, 01 December 2010 - 06:54 PM.

[tlm884]

I just started this supp today, and I haven't been this tired since I was on SSRIs years and years ago. I held off on my vote because I like to give these things a fair chance; I think taking my dose at night is the next step, and if sedation continues, perhaps cutting my dose in half and going from there is in order. I'm on 450+mg (20% bacosides). I *do* feel calmer, and not just because I'm sleepy either. Obviously it's too soon to tell if it's doing anything for my cognitive performance.

I was the same way, I was unusually fatigued on it. I was groggy the next day and the groginess impacted on cognition. Lowering the dose didn't make much difference. However, looking back on it I was under a lot of stress when I started taking bacopa and my HPA axis was seriously out of whack.

[distinct]

I was the same way, I was unusually fatigued on it. I was groggy the next day and the groginess impacted on cognition. Lowering the dose didn't make much difference. However, looking back on it I was under a lot of stress when I started taking bacopa and my HPA axis was seriously out of whack.

I had unusually good sleep last night. My partner said this is the first time she has ever heard me make "snoring like sounds" in all the years we've been together. I guess towards morning I was a snoring gently or mumbling, she couldn't tell. I figure this was a combination of my usual night allergies, a deeper sleep than usual and not having moved around a lot (for once). Upon waking I wanted to stay in bed, but I made myself get up and the grogginess diminished more quickly than most days. Currently, I'm feeling better than usual at this time in the morning.

I imagine that if I took the same dose before bed I would probably have difficulty getting up, so tonight I'm going to try half of the dosage 1 hr before bed, whereas yesterday I took it all in the morning nearly ruining my day.

Edited by distinct, 02 December 2010 - 12:56 PM.

[V_Sal]

I have been taking it for about a week. I have been having sleepiness, grogginess, mental fog, and for the last two days, depression.

I will stop for now and will start Ashwagandha, Rhodiola and Schizandra as soon as they get here in a few days.

 

I did not take Bacopa yesterday and felt really good today. However, this evening I decided to take about 1/4 of the capsule (capsule is 250mg). Had the same symptoms of extreme tiredness and depression.

I am also taking a formula similar to Dr Christopher´s Mind Trac (it is expensive to get it where I live), though, and this includes St John Wort, Valerian, Gotu Kola, Salsaparilla, Dandelion and Lobelia, this formula does me really well), and one time a day I am also mixing White Tea,White Mulberry and Garcinia in tea form.

I wanted Bacopa for memory and cognitive functions, but the extreme tiredness gets in the way.

The only positive I have been noticing since last two or three days is that I am getting sincerely more interested in what other people are doing artistically, and that competitiveness lowered dramatically. This has been extending to non-professional situations, as well. 

If this is from Bacopa, this is a major and important development. I read someone say on a thread elsewhere thad he´d had bad effects from Bacopa (including sleepiness) even after trying many different brands, but had none of these bad effects with a specific brand (Solaray). I am not sure why that is, but for the benefits I mentioned above I woud try other brands