22 replies to this topic

[j03]

I've had life long sleep issues, but it started to really got bad in College, as I deliberately stayed up at night because i found it easier to study when I was alone, and away from any distractions. However, I think that triggered an insomnia that's been with me since and really crippled my life. I did a sleep study a few years ago and was diagnosed with Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't revolve around a nocturnal sleep schedule, so that leaves me tired, and sleep deprived most of the time during the day I force myself to stay up, and isolated at night. I find it easier to pull an all-nighter, than to wake up a few hours earlier than my body wants.

If i set an alarm and wake up before I get 9 hours of sleep during my natural sleep time 4-12, I feel really horrible: lethargic, extremely weak and fatigued, mentally confused, dizzy, and I'm overwhelmed with a feeling of wanting to go back to sleep, etc. I eventually fall back asleep. I've even fallen asleep on buses

For the last week I've been taking 1.5 mg of melatonin at 12. Even if I go to bed at 3AM, I am still awaking at around 8AM. i stay up for an hour, then crash.

So, with good sleep hygiene habits, melatonin, and an alarm I could get up in the morning, and possibly go to bed earlier. But to treat that feeling of wanting to go back to bed that stay's with me throughout the day, is stimulants, or amphetamines the only option?

Does anyone here have this same problem? what has worked for you?

[Guacamolium]

Hmmm, so you've done a sleep study. I'm surprised Rozerem didn't get brought up in the midst of all that. As long as you keep a good sleep "hygeine," it should reset your circadian rhythm. It's an anologue of melatonin that doesn't interfere with sleep continuance. Melatonin keeps me awake, more so than guiding me through the stages of sleep.

[4eva]

B6 can help improve sleep quality. It helps with converting serotonin to melatonin. If you have little or no dream recall you might consider increasing your B6 intake. Both pyridoxine and p5p forms are needed.

B12 helps regulate your circadium rhythm. This can help shift workers.

Zinc also plays a role in how the body converts serotonin into melatonin. Many people take their zinc supplements at night or bedtime.

It would be better to try some type of lab tests to see what you're lacking rather than try all the nutrients known to help with sleep problems.

Low cortisol levels can make it hard to fall asleep at the usual time. Low cortisol would mean you need to supplement for your adrenal glands. Some people rely on coffee to get them started in the morning which might be a sign of weak adrenals or low cortisol levels.

I used to have problems with falling asleep and staying asleep. I couldn't work out past 9pm and expect to fall asleep at a reasonable hour. My saliva panel showed low cortisol levels. Anything that reved up my metabolism would interfere with my falling asleep. (My evening cortisol levels were relatively high.)
I would stay in bed until around noon on the weekends regardless of what time I woke up. That may be like what you experience with feeling lethargic with less than optimal sleep. That may be an indication of weak adrenals. You should really get this checked. You might have weak adrenals and a sleep problem because of some deficiencies.

[bgwithadd]

If I am serious about getting to sleep I will take 400mg of theanine, some melatonin, and a bunch of forskolin. Ultimately you just need to shift your cycle, though there's lots of possible underlying problems that may be making it worse. Also, ambien works great as an occasional schedule corrector.

[FunkOdyssey]

I've been sleeping like a baby since I started on agomelatine. I'm talking little baby infant, just born with wrinkley hands.

[spacey]

L-Theanine my abolute favourite nootropics ever, 200-300mg and you'll sleep like a child, and get very vivid dreams too!

[russianBEAR]

Glycine works wonders for some people, and it's an incredibly simple amino acid which you can take bucket-loads of with no side effects.

It doesn't work for me personally because I've done a lot of benzodiazepines in the past and that messed up my sleep patterns pretty much for life. 

The only way I get a decent sleep is if I'm out all day doing heavy physical exercise/sex and staying so busy that I just collapse when I get home. That and the good old reefer.

But Glycine works well for those who haven't abused benzos or barbiturates etc.

[Jacovis]

I've been sleeping like a baby since I started on agomelatine. I'm talking little baby infant, just born with wrinkley hands.

Hey Funk
What are your initial thoughts on Agomelatine:
Does the better quality sleep impact on your next day alertness levels and/or ADHD symptoms?
Do you notice much improvement in ADD symptoms say within an hour or two of taking it in the evenings?
Also what do you think of one poster's idea on the Agomelatine Psychonauts group (combining LOW dose Ziprasidone with Agomelatine)?

LMG (January 18, 2009):
"...The drug I'm talking about is, and this is VERY counterintuitive, Geodon
(aka Zeldox in Canada) (Ziprasidone). This drug is very different at low
dose than it is a higher dose: at high dose it is an antipsychotic because
of its antidopaminergic properties while at low dose he doesn't have those
Anti-DA properties. It's other properties being 5-HT2a and 5-HT2c
antagonism, both of those mechanism increase tonic DA in the prefrontal area
of the brain. This part is the 'rational/logic/intellectual' part. I
hypothesized that it would be a good drug to combine with Agomelatine on the
basis of the fact that they both have 5-HT2c antagonism properties and that
while Agomelatine has a short half-life and can't be taken the day, Geodon
(which has also a short half-life) can be taken 2, 3 times per day...
keeping the level of the sweet 5-HT2c antagonism more levelled through the
whole 24 hours cycle. So my idea had NOTHING to do with memory, fog
clearing, executive function improvement and such .. but for me this seems
to be the most profound effect of the combo (for me that is). Note that is
seemed to improve even more my mood and in fact do what I thought it would
do: level the Agomelatine in the day. But for some reason I felt it was
better for me to stop my Geodon experiement for now, so I can't yell miracle
in this forum so far.
How can someone guess if that combo will have this effect on them ? I
would hypothesize that if someone feels Agomelatine helped their ADHD (or in
my case ADHD-like symptoms), that adding low dose (around ~20 mg and in my
case even less) will probably enhance further more this effect..."

[nowayout]

I've been sleeping like a baby since I started on agomelatine. I'm talking little baby infant, just born with wrinkley hands.

I thought you had already been sleeping like a baby because of the glycine you were taking. Did that stop working?

[FunkOdyssey]

I thought you had already been sleeping like a baby because of the glycine you were taking. Did that stop working?

No, I never had a problem falling asleep or sleeping through the night while using glycine and I do continue to use it. I just notice that I am having an easier time getting out of bed in the morning and seem to have a higher level of energy/alertness throughout the entire day, right up until bedtime, which is unusual for me (on days when I do not take vyvanse). I am attributing this to deeper or better quality sleep as a result of the agomelatine.

Hey Funk
What are your initial thoughts on Agomelatine:
Does the better quality sleep impact on your next day alertness levels and/or ADHD symptoms?
Do you notice much improvement in ADD symptoms say within an hour or two of taking it in the evenings?
Also what do you think of one poster's idea on the Agomelatine Psychonauts group (combining LOW dose Ziprasidone with Agomelatine)?

I don't notice any improvement in ADD symptoms in the evening because the agomelatine is noticeably sedating, its almost like a sleeping pill, although this has diminished somewhat since the first night I took it. I've been on it about ten days now. Its difficult to say what effect it may be having on ADD symptoms during the day because I am also taking a small dose of vyvanse now (20mg) which eliminates them entirely. I did take a day off the vyvanse yesterday and was still in an unusually good mood anyway, so that might be the agomelatine shining through.

Most of agomelatine's antidepressant and anxiolytic effects are not supposed to be readily apparent before a couple weeks time, but if super amazingly restful sleep was its only benefit, it would probably still be worthwhile for me. I haven't experienced any side effects.

I don't know enough about ziprasidone to give an educated opinion but the idea is definitely intriguing. I admit I have been wondering how agomelatine's 5-ht2c antagonism is supposed to do anything effective during the day when it is almost completely out of your system by the morning. I thought maybe there were lingering aftereffects?

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 04 June 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[Jacovis]

I thought you had already been sleeping like a baby because of the glycine you were taking. Did that stop working?

No, I never had a problem falling asleep or sleeping through the night while using glycine and I do continue to use it. I just notice that I am having an easier time getting out of bed in the morning and seem to have a higher level of energy/alertness throughout the entire day, right up until bedtime, which is unusual for me (on days when I do not take vyvanse). I am attributing this to deeper or better quality sleep as a result of the agomelatine.

Hey Funk
What are your initial thoughts on Agomelatine:
Does the better quality sleep impact on your next day alertness levels and/or ADHD symptoms?
Do you notice much improvement in ADD symptoms say within an hour or two of taking it in the evenings?
Also what do you think of one poster's idea on the Agomelatine Psychonauts group (combining LOW dose Ziprasidone with Agomelatine)?

I don't notice any improvement in ADD symptoms in the evening because the agomelatine is noticeably sedating, its almost like a sleeping pill, although this has diminished somewhat since the first night I took it. I've been on it about ten days now. Its difficult to say what effect it may be having on ADD symptoms during the day because I am also taking a small dose of vyvanse now (20mg) which eliminates them entirely. I did take a day off the vyvanse yesterday and was still in an unusually good mood anyway, so that might be the agomelatine shining through.

Most of agomelatine's antidepressant and anxiolytic effects are not supposed to be readily apparent before a couple weeks time, but if super amazingly restful sleep was its only benefit, it would probably still be worthwhile for me. I haven't experienced any side effects.

I don't know enough about ziprasidone to give an educated opinion but the idea is definitely intriguing. I admit I have been wondering how agomelatine's 5-ht2c antagonism is supposed to do anything effective during the day when it is almost completely out of your system by the morning. I thought maybe there were lingering aftereffects?

Thanks for the response and keep us updated. I would be curious as to how your Pramixaperole experiment panned out. You might want to post it in the relevant thread but just curious how effective was it for your ADD symptoms? I am thinking it might have made you a bit drowsy but more assertive and motivated?

Interesting that you feel that you have a higher level of alertness/energy from the Agomelatine taken the night before (without improvement in ADD symptoms). Was it enough to negate the drowsiness from the Pramixaperole?

I found the below study which shows that Agomelatine enhances rats' tolerance to delay of gratification, an effect which may reflect their ability to improve impulse control. This might be helpful for some ADD symptoms I guess.


1: Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2005 Oct;182(1):24-32. Epub 2005 Sep 29. Links
Antidepressant-like effects of agomelatine, melatonin and the NK1 receptor antagonist GR205171 in impulsive-related behaviour in rats.

Loiseau F, Le Bihan C, Hamon M, Thiébot MH.
INSERM U.677 (ex U.288), Faculty of Medicine Pitié-Salpêtrière, 91 Boulevard de l'Hôpital, 75634 Paris, Cedex 13, France.
RATIONALE: Substance P receptor [neurokinin1 (NK1-R)] antagonists and melatonin(1/2) receptor (MT(1/2)-R) agonists have been claimed to be potential antidepressants (ADs). In animals, these compounds are active in validated models responsive to ADs, such as forced swimming test and chronic mild stress paradigms. Classical AD drugs are also known to be effective in pathologies characterized by an impulse control deficiency. In line with this clinical observation, previous studies demonstrated that classical ADs increased the capacity to wait for food reward in rats subjected to a paradigm aimed at assessing impulsive-related behaviour. OBJECTIVES: This study was conducted to investigate the effects of two MT(1/2)-R agonists, melatonin and agomelatine, and a NK1-R antagonist, GR205171, on tolerance to delay of food reward in rats. METHODS: Fasting rats were trained in a T-maze and allowed to choose between two magnitudes of reward: immediate but small reward (two pellets) vs 25-s delayed but large reward (ten pellets). Under this alternative, vehicle-injected rats selected the large-but-delayed reinforcer in less than 40% of the trials. RESULTS: Like the established ADs clomipramine (8 mg kg(-1), i.p.) and fluvoxamine (4 mg kg(-1), i.p.), melatonin (3 and 10 mg kg(-1), i.p.), agomelatine (10 and 30 mg kg(-1), i.p.) and GR205171 (30 mg kg(-1) but not 10 mg kg(-1), s.c.) significantly increased the number of choices of the large-but-delayed reward. The effect of melatonin (3 mg kg(-1), i.p.) was not counteracted by the MT(1/2)-R antagonist S22153 (40 mg kg(-1), i.p.) that exerted no effect on its own. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that MT(1/2)-R agonists and NK1-R antagonists enhance rats' tolerance to delay of gratification, an effect which may reflect their ability to improve impulse control. Further investigations are necessary to clarify the neurobiological mechanisms responsible for this effect.
PMID: 15986188 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[FunkOdyssey]

Pramipexole helped motivation a bit but was not helpful for concentration or focus. Overall, not really helpful for ADD. I would like to try it again now that I am stabilizing on the vyvanse, but I am wary of combining too many drugs, and turning my brain into some kind of chemical soup where the relationship between cause and effect is impossible to determine. We'll see.

I did not take pramipexole and agomelatine simultaneously but I do not think the agomelatine's "well-restedness" would be sufficient to counter pramipexole. Vyvanse on the other hand...

[adamh]

Glycine helped a tiny bit. I've been using glutamine which helps a little too. I take a spoon of each at night. I take magnesium and ashwaganda too. There is no magic bullet. If you find one, it will quit working after a while or have side effects. Such is life.

[adamh]

Last night I tried 2 spoons of glycine instead of 1 of that and one glutamine and it seemed to work just as well. So I don't know.

[graatch]

Funkodyssey, Agomelatine looks interesting, thanks for talking about it. I hope its sleep benefits persist for you.

Might have to pick some up. I react very problematically to supplemental melatonin -- manifested asthma, obliterated sleep quality with intense mescaline-like dreams -- but potentially this may be different. I come to think of inflammatory effects that may be mitigated in comparison to supplemental melatonin, either by the mechanism of receptor-end agonism (I haven't heard many complaints about rozerem side effects at this point, although many people find it useless) or by 5HT2C antagonism which as you know might be useful in a number of ways, probably anti-asthmatic for example.

Cyproheptadine (antihistamine/5HT2 antagonist) has been a nice sleep aid for me, although the sedative effect diminishes with regular use.

Edited by graatch, 07 June 2009 - 06:22 AM.

[Guacamolium]

Pramipexole helped motivation a bit but was not helpful for concentration or focus. Overall, not really helpful for ADD. I would like to try it again now that I am stabilizing on the vyvanse, but I am wary of combining too many drugs, and turning my brain into some kind of chemical soup where the relationship between cause and effect is impossible to determine. We'll see.

I did not take pramipexole and agomelatine simultaneously but I do not think the agomelatine's "well-restedness" would be sufficient to counter pramipexole. Vyvanse on the other hand...

...and where could a person get this agomelatine? I seem to not be able to find it for sale.

[yowza]

Check out www.iron-dragon.com.

There's a product listed as "delta sleep inducing peptide". Sounds interesting but not exactly sure what it is.

[Guacamolium]

Check out www.iron-dragon.com.

There's a product listed as "delta sleep inducing peptide". Sounds interesting but not exactly sure what it is.

Haha, yeah I've been intrigued by that for a couple months now. My main concern is if it interferes with non-delta wave activity within the other 4 stages. That info seems to be unknown both anecdotally and empirically.

[steelsky]

I've been having the EXACT same problem as the starter of this thread, for 8 years now. I just can't seem to get enough sleep ever, and even when I've slept well (I might feel so after 2h of sleep, or 10h), the tiredness returns after a short while. This is even if my alertness is caused by drugs (e.g., Ritalin or Modafinil)... I can't seem to stay alert for more than 5-6 hours tops.

You guys have mentioned some stuff I haven't tried before even though I've tried a lot of stuff, notably:
- ALCAR and ALA
- L-thyrosine
- Melatonin (from 0.5mg to 10mg, with confusing results... sometimes it gets me extremely tired for an entire day or two, sometimes just the opposite... I can't trust it)
- GABA
- Ginkgo, Ginseng, coQ10
- Idebenone, Vinpocetine, Sulbotiamine
- Piracetam, Oxiracetam, Aniracetam
- ATP (the PEAK brand)
- Probiotics
- Chlorella and Spirulina
- Huperzine A
- D-ribose
- Creatine (that one I didn't really asses with much attention, so I should really try noticing if it has any effect)

...and on the drugs front:
- Ritalin (all kinds and doses from 10mg to 80mg)
- Modafinil
- Effexor
- Bupropion
- I'm not checking Deprenyl (first dose yesterday) with high hopes

...and I'm sure i'm forgetting some.

I don't remember ever considering:
Vyvanse, Pramipexol, Agomelatine or Ramelteon
Which is most available commercially, and which is most recommended to fight sleepiness?

[Complexology]

Caution: It is wisely adviced to study all the information before consuming any content or physical ingredients.

Powerful sleep supplements (I apply daily on myself, approved by my body and chemistry)

Info from: http://www.bulletpro...h-biochemistry/

Evening/Before bed

1 cup of Chamomile tea - plus add honey

400mg Magnesium

200mg Zinc

200mg Calcium

100mg Suntheanine

100mg Potassium to start with and build up to 300mg

15 mg Collagen protein

5mg coconut oil

 

Study first (Optional)

Gaba 500mg first study: http://www.livestron...-panic-anxiety/

Ornithine 1-5 grams

Arginine Growth hormone 1-5 grams

L-tryptophan

GHB ambien

Melatonin

Valerian Root

Orgasm/Ejaculation/Copulation

 

http://www.preventio...100waystosleep/

Just a few examples

Breakfast big meal

Get enough Vitamin b6, b12, calcium and iron

Adviced for better sleep 90 mins before bed no electric devices

Meditation

Sleep journal

Lavender

 

[Joe Monroe]

 

Caution: It is wisely adviced to study all the information before consuming any content or physical ingredients.

Powerful sleep supplements (I apply daily on myself, approved by my body and chemistry)

Info from: http://www.bulletpro...h-biochemistry/

Evening/Before bed

1 cup of Chamomile tea - plus add honey

400mg Magnesium

200mg Zinc

200mg Calcium

100mg Suntheanine

100mg Potassium to start with and build up to 300mg

15 mg Collagen protein

5mg coconut oil

 

Study first (Optional)

Gaba 500mg first study: http://www.livestron...-panic-anxiety/

Ornithine 1-5 grams

Arginine Growth hormone 1-5 grams

L-tryptophan

GHB ambien

Melatonin

Valerian Root

Orgasm/Ejaculation/Copulation

 

http://www.preventio...100waystosleep/

Just a few examples

Breakfast big meal

Get enough Vitamin b6, b12, calcium and iron

Adviced for better sleep 90 mins before bed no electric devices

Meditation

Sleep journal

Lavender

 

 

thanks4that

[Keizo]

I can't tell you for sure yet, but I've been using resveratrol, it seems to remove a lot of fatigue. A few days ago it certainly troubled my sleeping.

I've been sleeping (and lying in bed) a few hours less. Taking about 300mg right now (and just added 200mg quercetin)

Normally I lay in bed for about 10-12 hours after having fallen asleep.

Edited by Keizo, 25 August 2014 - 12:43 PM.

[Sara Marsico]

Glycine works wonders for some people, and it's an incredibly simple amino acid which you can take bucket-loads of with no side effects.

It doesn't work for me personally because I've done a lot of benzodiazepines in the past and that messed up my sleep patterns pretty much for life. 

The only way I get a decent sleep is if I'm out all day doing heavy physical exercise/sex and staying so busy that I just collapse when I get home. That and the good old reefer.

But Glycine works well for those who haven't abused benzos or barbiturates etc.

 

How much and for how long constitutes is "a lot of benzodiazepines" ?

Edited by Sara Marsico, 02 December 2015 - 12:37 AM.