43 replies to this topic

[leanguy]

I've been dealing with brutal insomnia and anxiety for over a year. None of the usual supplements and medications have worked. Finally a doctor suggested that I have high norepinephrine, so I ran some labs and he was correct:

Catecholamines Total, Plasma 443 pg/mL [0-642]
Dopamine 16 pg/mL [0-142] ** low
Norepinephrine 393 pg/mL [0-399] ** high
Epinephrine 34 pg/mL [0-99]

So what kind of imbalance can cause this, and what can I do to slow the conversion of DA->NE? I'm not against prescriptions but I'd love to use natural supplements if possible. Thanks!

[bgwithadd]

Guanfacine. It reduces NE and partially blocks adrenalin, but unlike other similar drugs makes you more focused not more confused. It should help dramatically with all your symptoms. It's a very safe drug, too, with very few bad reactions. The only reason to possibly not use it is if your blood pressure is already too low, but if you have high NE that is very unlikely.


As for cause, take any medications or supplements? Taking zinc, for instance? You can also have something where you have lower than normal levels of MAO (though I'd think you'd have high DA as well), or you can have toxoplasmosis (brain worms - 10% of population have them), or something totally unknown. Chances are there's nothing you can do to eliminate or even identify the underlying cause, though, if there's nothing in your history that makes it obvious.

[leanguy]

Guanfacine. It reduces NE and partially blocks adrenalin, but unlike other similar drugs makes you more focused not more confused. It should help dramatically with all your symptoms. It's a very safe drug, too, with very few bad reactions. The only reason to possibly not use it is if your blood pressure is already too low, but if you have high NE that is very unlikely.

I already take clonidine which is similar in action to tenex (guanfacine). I don't like the side effects though, next day grogginess and dry mouth. Is tenex better than clonidine?

As for cause, take any medications or supplements? Taking zinc, for instance? You can also have something where you have lower than normal levels of MAO (though I'd think you'd have high DA as well), or you can have toxoplasmosis (brain worms - 10% of population have them), or something totally unknown. Chances are there's nothing you can do to eliminate or even identify the underlying cause, though, if there's nothing in your history that makes it obvious.

I take multi vitamins (including zinc). Brain worms... hmm never heard of that. Anyway thanks for responding.

[cumberlilly]

Norepinephrine is not my friend either, it used to be very high in me, now it's tempered with serotonin.

[leanguy]

Norepinephrine is not my friend either, it used to be very high in me, now it's tempered with serotonin.

does this mean SSRI? that route is a last resort for me due to sides.

[cumberlilly]

Norepinephrine is not my friend either, it used to be very high in me, now it's tempered with serotonin.

does this mean SSRI? that route is a last resort for me due to sides.

Yeah with an SSRI OR 5-htp. Try 5-htp, it's probably just as good as SSRI's, only it's completely natural.

[leanguy]

Yeah with an SSRI OR 5-htp. Try 5-htp, it's probably just as good as SSRI's, only it's completely natural.

I do take 5-HTP... works ok but seem to get a quick tolerance

[bgwithadd]

Guanfacine. It reduces NE and partially blocks adrenalin, but unlike other similar drugs makes you more focused not more confused. It should help dramatically with all your symptoms. It's a very safe drug, too, with very few bad reactions. The only reason to possibly not use it is if your blood pressure is already too low, but if you have high NE that is very unlikely.

I already take clonidine which is similar in action to tenex (guanfacine). I don't like the side effects though, next day grogginess and dry mouth. Is tenex better than clonidine?

As for cause, take any medications or supplements? Taking zinc, for instance? You can also have something where you have lower than normal levels of MAO (though I'd think you'd have high DA as well), or you can have toxoplasmosis (brain worms - 10% of population have them), or something totally unknown. Chances are there's nothing you can do to eliminate or even identify the underlying cause, though, if there's nothing in your history that makes it obvious.

I take multi vitamins (including zinc). Brain worms... hmm never heard of that. Anyway thanks for responding.

It has a much better side effect profile.

Well, single cell brain worms. Comes from undercooked meat or cat feces.

[OneScrewLoose]

Buspar can lower NE by lowering cAMP. Lithium does this as well.

BTW I didn't know there was a test to measure neurotransmitters. What's it called?

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 02 June 2009 - 03:34 AM.

[Logan]

I second the lithium suggestion..Worth a try of the aspartate or orotate forms at a fairly low dose. Or talk to the doctor about it. Look at my post to your question over at M and M. I gave you a few studies to check out.

[Cassox]

Hmmm... Just a couple of thoughts. If you want to block the receptors, a B-blocker should work. Specifically something like an A1 andrenergic blocker should work I think. B1 blockers wouldn't do shit for vasoconstriction, but a nonspecific Beta blocker that hits the B2s should. Also, you could take either a calcium channel blocker, or load up on some magnesium sulphate. Either one should lower smooth muscles tone. Whats your plasma ph at? Once your ph starts getting up around 7.4ish, it has a very stimulatory effect with anxiety. PH imbalances can be as simple as inefficient breathing patterns (if you were up around 7.4, its would be fast breathing) or it can be a metabolic problem from something as serious as failing kidneys.

Don't take anything said seriously; it was just a few random thoughts.

[leanguy]

Thanks for the responses. The test is called plasma catecholamines from labcorp. Since catecholamines are synthesized by the adrenals they can be tested in the blood. I'm definitely going to look into the lithium. My saliva ph is about 6.5 ... I consume a lot of alkalizing minerals like magnesium, calcium.

[health_nutty]

Another suggestion for anxiety is Magnesium. Taking 800mg of magnesium (from magnesium citrate), has improved my anxiety dramatically.

[tlm884]

Propranolol - blocks both beta receptors and directly antagnoizes the effects (or conversion I can't remember) the effects of norepi

Edited by tlm884, 03 June 2009 - 03:22 AM.

[tlm884]

Buspar can lower NE by lowering cAMP. Lithium does this as well.

BTW I didn't know there was a test to measure neurotransmitters. What's it called?

There is not a teset to measure neurotransmitters. Measuring serum "neurotransmitters" does not reflect the neurotransmitters in the brain. Testing for seretonin in the blood is often used to test for cancer. Testing for epinephrine (adrenaline) is used for diseases of the adrenal glands. Norepi has effects outside the brain as well such as vasoconstriction. These would have been measured for there effects outside the CNS

[shaggy]

Propranolol - blocks both beta receptors and directly antagnoizes the effects (or conversion I can't remember) the effects of norepi

I would not use this drug, it has a myriad of unpleasant side effects.

[Cassox]

Buspar can lower NE by lowering cAMP. Lithium does this as well.

BTW I didn't know there was a test to measure neurotransmitters. What's it called?

There is not a teset to measure neurotransmitters. Measuring serum "neurotransmitters" does not reflect the neurotransmitters in the brain. Testing for seretonin in the blood is often used to test for cancer. Testing for epinephrine (adrenaline) is used for diseases of the adrenal glands. Norepi has effects outside the brain as well such as vasoconstriction. These would have been measured for there effects outside the CNS

Well.... There is. Its called micro-dialysis. They put something like a 22 gauge needle through the meninges and sample CSF in that region of the brain. Now, with a the small adaption of "there is no test to measure neurotransmitters that your going to get, or would want to get," I agree.

[OneScrewLoose]

Thanks for the responses. The test is called plasma catecholamines from labcorp. Since catecholamines are synthesized by the adrenals they can be tested in the blood. I'm definitely going to look into the lithium. My saliva ph is about 6.5 ... I consume a lot of alkalizing minerals like magnesium, calcium.

Yeah, that's not going to work, especially for serotonin (being that it does not cross the BBB). I would seriously reevaluate chasing anything based of this test.

[leanguy]

UPDATE: been using guanfacine (tenex) 1-3mg for a couple weeks and it has been helping. better sleep and less anxiety; very few sides. still not cured, but I'll give it some more time. Also taking 10mg lithium orotate.

Edited by leanguy, 16 July 2009 - 07:49 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Are you actually basing your approach based on this blood test?

[tlm884]

Propranolol

[shaggy]

Propranolol

Why do you keep recommending this?

Ok...lets take a drug that causes diabetes, damages lipid profile, causes insomnia, increases weight (body fat), reduces melatonin production, dulls memory...on so on...blah blah...

Dumb advice - steer clear!

[leanguy]

Why do you keep recommending this?

Ok...lets take a drug that causes diabetes, damages lipid profile, causes insomnia, increases weight (body fat), reduces melatonin production, dulls memory...on so on...blah blah...

Dumb advice - steer clear!

you forgot erectile dysfunction

[leanguy]

Are you actually basing your approach based on this blood test?

no, doctor's advice

[tlm884]

Why do you keep recommending this?

Ok...lets take a drug that causes diabetes, damages lipid profile, causes insomnia, increases weight (body fat), reduces melatonin production, dulls memory...on so on...blah blah...

Dumb advice - steer clear!

Becuase since starting propranolol my anxiety has almost completely disappeared.

[KimberCT]

Becuase since starting propranolol my anxiety has almost completely disappeared.

I'm not on it anymore... but it worked very well for me also.

[leanguy]

I didn't notice anything on propranolol, but tenex has reduced my anxiety with no sides that I've noticed. tenex is more for norepinephrine and propranolol epinephrine.

[NeuroGuy]

Leanguy,
I also had the same test done by Labcorp and showed similar results to yours, and have similar issues..

Total: 396
Norepinephrine: 362
Epinephrine: 23
Dopamine: 11


Try ZMA (combined Zinc, Magnesium, B6 supplement, by labtech?), its helped incredibly with the anxiety, but only helped a little for underlying depression, a result of the low dopamine that I only noticed when I wasnt extremely anxious, but is the main concern now. The lab results were after 6 months supplementing with ZMA; I wonder what the results would of been prior.

Also, did you ever get your catecholamines retested after taking Tenex for awhile? Wondering if long term Tenex use raises dopamine as a result of less DA -> NE conversion, which is what I now really need for the depression/lack of motivation, which I'm wondering if you experience as well.


Final note, I've taken Propanol in the past too and it did nothing for anxiety, only caused weight gain/water retention.

[sentrysnipe]

Leanguy,
I also had the same test done by Labcorp and showed similar results to yours, and have similar issues..

Total: 396
Norepinephrine: 362
Epinephrine: 23
Dopamine: 11


Try ZMA (combined Zinc, Magnesium, B6 supplement, by labtech?), its helped incredibly with the anxiety, but only helped a little for underlying depression, a result of the low dopamine that I only noticed when I wasnt extremely anxious, but is the main concern now. The lab results were after 6 months supplementing with ZMA; I wonder what the results would of been prior.

Also, did you ever get your catecholamines retested after taking Tenex for awhile? Wondering if long term Tenex use raises dopamine as a result of less DA -> NE conversion, which is what I now really need for the depression/lack of motivation, which I'm wondering if you experience as well.


Final note, I've taken Propanol in the past too and it did nothing for anxiety, only caused weight gain/water retention.

Hi Neuroguy, have you followed up with your PCP on your catecholamine levels? A blood test may not be as accurate as a U24 test with VMA. Your doctor / internist should rule out pheochromocytoma.

Did you stop taking Propanolol because of the edema? Dosage? Perhaps you could take a K-sparing diuretic along with it to prevent the fluid build-up. I would also suggest taking a 2:1 ratio of Mg and Cal citrate because taking Magnesium alone may also give you more anxiety.

Other than that, you could try a small dose (50 mg) 5-htp for a week then work it up to 100mg, without b6 within 2 hrs.

[Lufega]

Buspar can lower NE by lowering cAMP. Lithium does this as well.

BTW I didn't know there was a test to measure neurotransmitters. What's it called?

Thanks for this tidbit. Since adding lithium last week, I've been sleeping like a log, all day, everyday. I need good NE levels to avoid hypotension.

http://www.springerl...1526x20u28h011/

Summary Acute or chronic administration of lithium chloride increased the disappearance of intracisternally administered norepinephrine-H3 from rat brain. Tritiated deaminated catechol metabolites and free deaminated-O-methylated metabolites represented a larger fraction of the radioactivity present in the brain in animals treated with lithium chloride than in control animals. Statistically significant changes in the uptake of norepinephrine-H3 into brain were not observed after the chronic administration of lithium chloride. The findings suggest that chronic, as well as acute administration of lithium salts may increase norepinephrine turnover in brain and possibly increase the deamination of this amine.

Edited by Lufega, 24 December 2009 - 12:22 AM.