43 replies to this topic

[NeuroGuy]

Leanguy,
I also had the same test done by Labcorp and showed similar results to yours, and have similar issues..

Total: 396
Norepinephrine: 362
Epinephrine: 23
Dopamine: 11


Try ZMA (combined Zinc, Magnesium, B6 supplement, by labtech?), its helped incredibly with the anxiety, but only helped a little for underlying depression, a result of the low dopamine that I only noticed when I wasnt extremely anxious, but is the main concern now. The lab results were after 6 months supplementing with ZMA; I wonder what the results would of been prior.

Also, did you ever get your catecholamines retested after taking Tenex for awhile? Wondering if long term Tenex use raises dopamine as a result of less DA -> NE conversion, which is what I now really need for the depression/lack of motivation, which I'm wondering if you experience as well.


Final note, I've taken Propanol in the past too and it did nothing for anxiety, only caused weight gain/water retention.

Hi Neuroguy, have you followed up with your PCP on your catecholamine levels? A blood test may not be as accurate as a U24 test with VMA. Your doctor / internist should rule out pheochromocytoma.

Did you stop taking Propanolol because of the edema? Dosage? Perhaps you could take a K-sparing diuretic along with it to prevent the fluid build-up. I would also suggest taking a 2:1 ratio of Mg and Cal citrate because taking Magnesium alone may also give you more anxiety.

Other than that, you could try a small dose (50 mg) 5-htp for a week then work it up to 100mg, without b6 within 2 hrs.

Hi sentrysnipe,
I havn't followed up with my PCP yet but I plan too in the near future, I'm getting other tests done on my own, which I'l post results, to have some more solid evidence of a problem before I try to lay it on my doctor (In the past, telling a doctor i've had anxiety/mental issues immediately has caused multiple times to dismiss the issue and deal poor care for whatever reason, "How Doctors Think" is a good book describing this problem with health service).

Also, I had wondered about the pheochromocytoma and had gotten another test done to rule that out, supposedly plasma Normetanephrine and Metanephrine is a 100% accurate test to rule out said tumors because they would be highly elevated in all cases, http://www.pheochrom...quentquestions/
The results were..

Normetanephrine: 42 pg/ml (reference 0-145)
Metanephrine: 11 pg/ml (reference 0-62)

Fairly certain that test ruled out pheochromocytoma, in the process of running tests to check for the different forms of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia as well as Addisons disease that somehow would lead to an overactive adrenal medulla, both of which seem to not be the case.

5-htp actually causes anxiety for me lol (I'm assuming from enhancing serotonergic activity causing lowered dopaminergic activity, which is already at an all time low, which all plays a part in regulating noradrenergic activity).

I stopped taking Propanol when I started college, not due to side effects, kindof as a I wanna do this without any drugs mindset but 2 years later, realize my body chemistry really is just not right on its own.

Thank you for the prompt response, kindof assumed this thread had gone inactive

[sentrysnipe]

Hi sentrysnipe,
I havn't followed up with my PCP yet but I plan too in the near future, I'm getting other tests done on my own, which I'l post results, to have some more solid evidence of a problem before I try to lay it on my doctor (In the past, telling a doctor i've had anxiety/mental issues immediately has caused multiple times to dismiss the issue and deal poor care for whatever reason, "How Doctors Think" is a good book describing this problem with health service).

Also, I had wondered about the pheochromocytoma and had gotten another test done to rule that out, supposedly plasma Normetanephrine and Metanephrine is a 100% accurate test to rule out said tumors because they would be highly elevated in all cases, http://www.pheochrom...quentquestions/
The results were..

Normetanephrine: 42 pg/ml (reference 0-145)
Metanephrine: 11 pg/ml (reference 0-62)

Fairly certain that test ruled out pheochromocytoma, in the process of running tests to check for the different forms of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia as well as Addisons disease that somehow would lead to an overactive adrenal medulla, both of which seem to not be the case.

5-htp actually causes anxiety for me lol (I'm assuming from enhancing serotonergic activity causing lowered dopaminergic activity, which is already at an all time low, which all plays a part in regulating noradrenergic activity).

I stopped taking Propanol when I started college, not due to side effects, kindof as a I wanna do this without any drugs mindset but 2 years later, realize my body chemistry really is just not right on its own.

Thank you for the prompt response, kindof assumed this thread had gone inactive

Hi, I missed the part about leanguy. Yeah propanolol won't do anything for high NE, but it is great to hear that your adrenal metabolites are within normal range.
May I ask since you have low dopaminergic activity, just to confirm, you don't experience tachycardia and low blood pressure right?

Have you tried Tyrosine, Lithium Orotate and Phosphatidylserine for that?

Did the ZMA take care of all your anxiety or did the effect taper off?

Hope you are well.

Edited by chrono, 08 September 2010 - 10:14 PM.
trimmed quote

[NeuroGuy]

No tachyacardia or low blood pressure no, and I have tried all 3 of those things you listed, lithium made me more or less emotionless/blank depression, tyrosine with b6 helped first week but after that it didnt do much, possibly even placebo, and phosphatidyl serine may have helped but only small. The ZMA caused the anxiety to taper off like you said, still some mild general anxiety/irritability. Before I had severe social anxiety (very related to low dopamine/D2 receptor function) but now id call it just social uncomfort.

Sorry Ive been off the comp for the holiday shinanigans lol

[sentrysnipe]

I've been doing breathing exercise mp3's from mcmaster uni http://csd.mcmaster....d-relaxation-cd for the past few days

and i think it's working. resting my heart rate has become 18 beats slower per minute compared to two weeks ago.

maybe it could work for your anxiety too along with stephen halpern audio lol

[VespeneGas]

Taurine has antihypertensive and anxiolytic effects.

Jpn J Pharmacol. 1978 Apr;28(2):259-68.


A modulating role of taurine on release of acetylcholine and norepinephrine from neuronal tissues.

Muramatsu M, Kakita K, Nakagawa K, Kuriyama K.

Effects of taurine (2-aminoethanesulfonic acid) on the uptake and release of 14C-acetylcholine (14C-ACh) and 3H-norepinephrine (3H-NE) in the superior cervical ganglion and cerebral cortex of the rat were studied. Taurine suppressed high potassium evoked release of 14C-ACh and 3H-NE from the rat superior cervical ganglia and cerebral cortical slices, while the drug did not modify per se the uptake and unstimulated (spontaneous) release of 14C-ACh and 3H-NE in these tissues. Furthermore, taurine inhibited the release of 3H-NE from the crude synaptosomal (P2) fraction of the rat brain without affecting the uptake. These results suggest that taurine may act as a modulator of neuronal activity, possibly by stabilizing excitable membrane and by suppressing the release of neurotansmitter at synapses.

PMID: 691871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Neuroscience. 1984 Nov;13(3):663-6.


Modulation of noradrenaline uptake and release by taurine in rat cerebral slices.

Kontro P, Korpi ER, Oja OS, Oja SS.

The effects of taurine on the uptake and release of noradrenaline were studied in forebrain slices from control rats and from rats treated with a taurine-free diet supplemented with 2-guanidinoethanesulphonate. Exogenous taurine slightly increased noradrenaline uptake in slices from untreated rats. There were no significant effects by exogenous taurine on spontaneous efflux of noradrenaline. The potassium-stimulated noradrenaline release was enhanced by taurine from frontal cortical slices and suppressed from occipital slices but only in the diet group, in which the endogenous brain taurine concentration had been lowered to one-half of the control concentration. It is suggested that taurine may act via presynaptic alpha-adrenoceptors and/or modify the availability of calcium for the stimulus-secretion coupling process.

PMID: 6527772 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Adv Exp Med Biol. 1996;403:257-62.


Direct inhibitory effects of taurine on norepinephrine-induced contraction in mesenteric artery of stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive rats.

Li N, Sawamura M, Nara Y, Ikeda K, Yamori Y.

Graduate School of Human and Environmental Studies, Kyoto University, Japan.

The effect of taurine on vascular reactivity was investigated in the mesenteric artery of Wistar Kyoto (WKY), and stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive rats (SHRSP). Administration of taurine significantly decreased blood pressure of SHRSP but not WKY. The mesenteric artery of taurine-treated SHRSP was excised to observe the contractile responses to transmural electrical stimulation and to several vasoactive substances. Vasocontraction induced by norepinephrine (NE) was significantly decreased by taurine. However, contraction elicited by the other substances tested was not affected. Consistently, when the vessels of SHRSP were pretreated with taurine in vitro, only the NE-induced vasocontraction was specifically attenuated. No effect was observed in WKY vessels. These results indicate that the hypotensive effect of taurine is accounted for at least in part its direct action on blood vessels.

PMID: 8915362 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

Not entirely sure what to make of this next one. Anyone know anything about β3s deficient mice?

J Cardiovasc Pharmacol. 2003 Jan;41 Suppl 1:S127-31.


The effect of taurine on the salt-dependent blood pressure increase in the voltage-dependent calcium channel beta 3-subunit-deficient mouse.

Hagiwara K, Kuroki G, Yuan PX, Suzuki T, Murakami M, Hano T, Sasano H, Yanagisawa T.

Department of Molecular Pharmacology, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.

To examine the anti-hypertensive effect of taurine, we studied the effects of taurine on the salt-dependent blood pressure elevation, the electrocardiogram, and plasma catecholamine levels in the voltage-dependent calcium channel beta3-subunit-deficient mouse. In the wild-type mice, chronic high-salt loading (8% NaCl in chow) did not increase the blood pressure, whereas there was a significant increase in the systolic blood pressure in the beta3-subunit-deficient mice given a high-salt diet. Oral supplementation of taurine (3% in drinking water) could attenuate the increase in the blood pressure elicited by the high-salt diet. Plasma catecholamine levels were significantly decreased by the high-salt diet, and supplementation of taurine prevented those decreases in beta3-subunit-deficient mice. It is suggested, therefore, that chronic supplementation of taurine has an anti-hypertensive action in salt-dependent blood pressure elevation.

PMID: 12688409 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

This one confirms that dietary sodium is a regulator of both central and peripheral NE metabolism:

Hypertension, Vol 3, 233-239, Copyright © 1981 by American Heart Association


Effect of chronic sodium depletion on cerebrospinal fluid and plasma catecholamines


KB Brosnihan, JE Szilagyi and CM Ferrario

To test the role of central neurogenic factors in sodium-depleted states, cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) norepinephrine, epinephrine, and dopamine were measured in mongrel dogs first on a normal sodium intake (65 mEq sodium/day) and then on a 21-day regime of low sodium diet (4 mEq/day combined with diuretics). Plasma catecholamines were measured in the same group of dogs. Three weeks of sodium depletion supplemented with diuretics caused a 24-fold increase in plasma renin activity, hemoconcentration, and elevated serum protein concentration. Both plasma and CSF sodium decreased significantly. After sodium depletion, plasma norepinephrine rose 76% but epinephrine and dopamine did not change. The same pattern was observed whether samples were obtained in conscious or anesthetized animals. In CSF, norepinephrine rose 44% during sodium depletion, while epinephrine and dopamine remained unchanged. The CSF norepinephrine was related inversely to the CSF sodium concentration and directly to plasma renin activity. These observations support the view that the combined procedure of restricted dietary sodium intake and diuretic therapy causes alterations in CSF norepinephrine in a direction compatible with possible overactivity of central noradrenergic neurons.

http://hyper.ahajour...bstract/3/2/233

And it's true in healthy humans as well:

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 48, No. 1 26-31
doi:10.1210/jcem-48-1-26
Copyright © 1979 by the Endocrine Society.

Effect of Sodium Intake on Plasma Catecholamines in Normal Subjects
MARK S. ROMOFF, GERALD KEUSCH<a name="RFN2">, VITO M. CAMPESE, MAW-SONG WANG, ROBERT M. FRIEDLER, PETER WEIDMANN and SHAUL G. MASSRY Division of Nephrology and Department of Medicine, University of Southern California School of Medicine Los Angeles, California 90033

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Shaul G. Massry, M. D., Professor of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, University of Southern California, School of Medicine, 2025 Zonal Avenue, Los Angeles, California 90033.

The effect of the state of sodium balance on the activity of the sympathetic nervous system has been evaluated previously by measuring urinary catecholamine excretion. Since urinary catecholamine may be affected by factors such as renal function or renal production of catecholamines, blood catecholamines may provide a better index of the activity of the sympathetic nervous system. The present study was undertaken to evaluate the effect of varying sodium intake on blood catecholamines.

Thirteen normal subjects were studied for a period of 3 weeks in a metabolic ward. They received during the first, second, and third week 10, 100, and 200 meq sodium/day, respectively. On the seventh day of each week, when the patients had achieved sodium balance, urinary sodium excretion as well as blood levels of PRA, norepinephrine (NE), epinephrine (Ep), and dopamine (D) were measured in the supine position, at 5, 10, 15, and 20 min of upright posture, and at the end of 40 min of ambulation. The results show that: 1) blood levels of NE, Ep, and D as well as PRA were significantly higher during low sodium intake than during medium or high sodium intake, 2) as in the case of PRA, there was an inverse relationship between the blood levels of NE, Ep, and urinary sodium excretion; 3) upright posture produced a significant increment in the blood levels of NE which was not affected by sodium intake; and 4) the increment in PRA with posture was significantly greater during low sodium intake than with medium high sodium intake.

The data demonstrate that: 1) the plasma levels of NE, Ep, and D are affected by the state of sodium balance, particularly during marked sodium depletion; and 2) meaningful interpretation of the significance of the blood levels of catecholamines should be made with reference to indices of sodium balance, such as urinary sodium excretion.

http://jcem.endojour...bstract/48/1/26

Magnesium can also help with psychological and vasoconstrictive sides of NE, but I think it's already been mentioned ITT.

[NeuroGuy]

Sentrysnipe,
Thanks for that I might give those a try. I really appreciate any insight but I'm actually not really looking to treat the symptoms, the anxiety really is managable, I'm more trying to figure out the root chemical cause

VespeneGas,
Very interesting articles you posted, I'm especially interested in the sodium depletion resulting in increased norepinephrine. The high norepinephrine runs along my dads side of the family, and both my sister and father have pretty big salt cravings.

I'm actually gunna be starting a new thread with a full list of the rest results I've recieved and a list of symptoms and see if anyone notices a pattern or irregularities in the results. Thank you both for the posts

[k10]

Fludrocortisone reduces serum norepinepherine, which would go along with the whole sodium depletion talk. I've started taking 0.05mg for orthostatic hypotension and I had a rather dramatic decrease in adrenaline like-feeling.

Maybe take a super small dosage like 0.025 would have the norepinepherine lowering effects, without the hypertensive effects. It worked for me, subjectively, even at that low dosage.

Edited by k10, 04 January 2010 - 07:02 AM.

[mentatpsi]

Still, the low dopamine is something to be looked at. They're both intertwined in a problem that should be examined, possibly the fact that both low DA and high NE appear together should exclude diagnosis that only relate to NE. I don't know why everyone immediately rushes to prescribe supplements or pills, it's preferable to talk with doctors and get multiple opinions as to what's possibly wrong.

With that said, worse comes to worst, examine the converters of Dopamine such as MAO as this seems most related. Potentially an MAOI might help. But don't rush to treating NE without examining the role Dopamine is playing in your ailment. As I believe under the right pathways, Dopamine can have a very relaxing effect. This is one of the causes of Deprenyl's erratic behaviour I believe.

Best Regards.

[Clarity]

Have you tried cutting out caffeine if you ingest it? Caffeine stimulates norepinephrine. Everytime I've had anxiety in the past, cutting out caffeine has been the most simplest, effective, quickest route to nip it in the bud. I've had to cut it out for years at a time and then can go years drinking it & then it's "that time" again.

[leanguy]

Thanks for the continued replies. No I do not use caffeine, it makes me way too jittery. I believe NE is elevated because my adrenals (cortisol) and thyroid are weak. The NE is compensatory. I'm currently seeing a doctor who's helping me replace the missing adrenal & thyroid hormones, so hopefully the NE and DA will come back into balance again. I'll post my progress.

[NeuroGuy]

Thanks for the continued replies. No I do not use caffeine, it makes me way too jittery. I believe NE is elevated because my adrenals (cortisol) and thyroid are weak. The NE is compensatory. I'm currently seeing a doctor who's helping me replace the missing adrenal & thyroid hormones, so hopefully the NE and DA will come back into balance again. I'll post my progress.

Any progress Leanguy?

[cheeks]

I know this sounds silly but how much coffee or caffeine do you consume daily? Caffeine has a lot to do with the neurotransmitters: norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin. Maybe cut out the coffee for a week or two and all sodas and other stuff that has caffeine in it like hot chocolate mixes, pain relievers and so on (check labels) and see what happens. Just a thought.......

sleepy blessings,
cheeks

[cheeks]

I know this sounds silly but how much coffee or caffeine do you consume daily? Caffeine has a lot to do with the neurotransmitters: norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin. Maybe cut out the coffee for a week or two and all sodas and other stuff that has caffeine in it like hot chocolate mixes, pain relievers and so on (check labels) and see what happens. Just a thought.......

sleepy blessings,
cheeks

I'm sorry Leanguy, I just read the recent posts about where you don't consume caffeine. I posted before I read.....dumb dumb. Anyway, maybe the info will help someone else out there and make sure you aren't consuming any form of caffeine in other substances either like I suggested above. The tiniest amount of caffeine can throw the NTs off balance quickly. Another suggestion to throw out there to you to try and maybe others too is L-tryptophan. I don't have much luck with it but I know many people who do, especially with anger issues and insomnia problems. that's all......I hope you find some relief soonly.

[sparkk51]

If I were to begin taking a stimulant such as methylphenidate or dexmethylphenidate, would the dopamine release/re-uptake inhibition lead to even more norepinephrine? I know I have significantly more NE than DA and hope the stimulant will balance it out.