173 replies to this topic

[Mike M]

I want to pay these duties and taxes and have this over with. They've tried to get in touch with you and haven't been able to. They were provided with the right paperwork. This all could have been avoided with a simple email to me before calling them. I'm just blown away at the anger you have over all of this, when you're out nothing.

I want this resolved so I can stop checking this thread to find out what new threat is being made against my life, my business or whatever else. Experiences like this is why I sold my previous companies. You went way to far with a personal threat. I've done NOTHING but try to help since I first found out about this situation. I've told the truth the entire time. I've provided all of the information I can. All you've done is threaten me, slander me and do everything you can to be negative about the experience. Once again, all over something you've openly posted you're not going to pay for. It would be different if I was in this thread and not trying to resolve the situation.

I just want to go on with my business. I want you to get your products and go our separate ways.

[Rational Madman]

I want to pay these duties and taxes and have this over with. They've tried to get in touch with you and haven't been able to. They were provided with the right paperwork. This all could have been avoided with a simple email to me before calling them. I'm just blown away at the anger you have over all of this, when you're out nothing.

I want this resolved so I can stop checking this thread to find out what new threat is being made against my life, my business or whatever else. Experiences like this is why I sold my previous companies. You went way to far with a personal threat. I've done NOTHING but try to help since I first found out about this situation. I've told the truth the entire time. I've provided all of the information I can. All you've done is threaten me, slander me and do everything you can to be negative about the experience. Once again, all over something you've openly posted you're not going to pay for. It would be different if I was in this thread and not trying to resolve the situation.

I just want to go on with my business. I want you to get your products and go our separate ways.

Wow, this discussion really got out of hand. Although my role was quite limited, I regret making any contribution to the escalation of tensions.

Isochroma: It would be a pointless exercise to use the aforementioned infractions as a pretext for launching a personal crusade. I can certainly understand your desire to make some sort of consequential impact in a life filled with misfortune, but there are far more worthy causes that could use your palpable intelligence and passion. These assets would be wasted if you continue on your present course, because any effort to pursue criminal charges against Mike is unlikely to reverse past injustices or offer the redemption that you yearn. I think you're aware of the futility of this endeavor, but you feel powerless to pursue alternative remedies. But, you can take some solace from the fact that there are plenty of afflicted individuals on this forum that have a sincere interest in your welfare, and are willing to provide thoughtful advice to expedite your recovery. We are by no means a substitute for close friends and family members, and I can't guarantee that your problems won't be met with callousness on occasion, but again, it is unlikely that your problems--if clearly conveyed--will be ignored.

Mike: For f**k's sake, triple check your paperwork! Further, in order to minimize the incidence of consumer complaints, I would suggest the addition of a consumer survey with every order. Alternatively, and if your financial position permits it, I would also suggest investing in a customer service representative. If your errors were indeed innocent, it's likely that the stress from handling multiple responsibilities was a contributing factor.

Edited by Rol82, 08 September 2009 - 10:06 AM.

[Ben]

You guys are forgetting one major thing with your testing idea. Chain of custody. Take it from someone who spent A LOT of money in lawsuits, if you don't do this right, you'll be sued into oblivion. I got taken to court by protein factory, a VERY well known incident (go search bb.com for the massive thread). It cost me a ton of money to go to court. When you test someone's product and send it from your house or personal supply, there is no way to prove what you sent belonged to anyone. If a test result was to come back negative for such a thing, you will be sued personally. At least in my case, they sued my business, they couldn't go after me personally. This is why consumers don't do testing. Do some searching to see what it costs when you lose a case like this, it's not pretty.

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

What have you got to hide Mike "M" of smartpowders.com?

Edited by Ben - Aus, 08 September 2009 - 09:49 AM.

[Mike M]

You guys are forgetting one major thing with your testing idea. Chain of custody. Take it from someone who spent A LOT of money in lawsuits, if you don't do this right, you'll be sued into oblivion. I got taken to court by protein factory, a VERY well known incident (go search bb.com for the massive thread). It cost me a ton of money to go to court. When you test someone's product and send it from your house or personal supply, there is no way to prove what you sent belonged to anyone. If a test result was to come back negative for such a thing, you will be sued personally. At least in my case, they sued my business, they couldn't go after me personally. This is why consumers don't do testing. Do some searching to see what it costs when you lose a case like this, it's not pretty.

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

What have you got to hide Mike "M" of smartpowders.com?

I don't have anything to hide, which is why all my information can be seen by any customer. I'm pointing out an obvious fact. Given threats on my life have been made, can I really trust an unbias test to be done? Think about it.

[Mike M]

Mike: For f**k's sake, triple check your paperwork! Further, in order to minimize the incidence of consumer complaints, I would suggest the addition of a consumer survey with every order. Alternatively, and if your financial position permits it, I would also suggest investing in a customer service representative. If your errors were indeed innocent, it's likely that the stress from handling multiple responsibilities was a contributing factor.

A human error happened. A new employee made a mistake, that's all. I'm glad none of you have ever made a mistake within your job. What good would a customer service rep have done given that he never contacted us about the problem? He saw the package get held in customs, which is a common practice for many packages before getting cleared. He then gave them false information, which combined with my shipping employee's mistake, caused all types of issues. He has never informed me that he had no way of being contacted by the broker in canada. After speaking to them last night, they've been trying to contact him but have in their notes there is no way too. I'm not sure how you can resolve a situation with someone who refuses to be contacted? He has the ability to post on the internet, that's for sure. Yet, he never gave an email to be contacted with.

Mistakes happen in ALL types of business. None of that excuses making threats on someone's life over an order he HASN'T PAID FOR. He is out NOTHING. He's already said he's ordered from another vendor. He's had a very public meltdown over nothing. All I've tried to do is help the entire time. All I've gotten in return is attacked by the 3 of you. I can't do anything more than what I've done to this point.

[Ben]

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

What have you got to hide Mike "M" of smartpowders.com?

I don't have anything to hide, which is why all my information can be seen by any customer. I'm pointing out an obvious fact. Given threats on my life have been made, can I really trust an unbias test to be done? Think about it.

Isochroma's post is completely unacceptable to me, direct threat, implied threat or no threat (considering its otherwise troubling content). I've made a complaint and suggested that a temporary ban be put in place, but let's not use it to confuse this issue. We can both agree that his post was completely inappropriate.


To threaten legal action when I suggest getting some of your products properly tested is something else entirely.

You say that the consumer has access to all the information? COA's performed by Chinese manufacturers are mostly likely to be inaccurate (due to the conflict of interest) and can at worst be seen as being fraudulent.

Obviously though, you know your law well. You've probably somehow covered yourself from litigation brought from a consumer adversely affected by your product, that or the laws in America, of which I am unfamiliar, allow you to do what you are doing.

Given the way you have conducted yourself during this discussion, and the slimy way you have attempted to slip out of every accusation, lambasted those who rightfully challenged you and perhaps used shills as backup, my advice to your customers is to consider purchasing from you very carefully and to ask themselves if whether the potential long-term risk to their health is worth the very subtle, sometimes non-existent, payoff of the racetams.

And I don't see how getting your products properly (yes, I don't mean pieces of paper from Shanghai, China, stating that their product is a-OK) tested should be so hard; until you do though, the above applies.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 08 September 2009 - 01:15 PM.

[niner]

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

I didn't see a threat of suit if we test. Mike was talking about what can happen in general when someone tests a companies products without proper chain of custody. A competitor could adulterate the product, then have it tested to make a company look bad. He's right. There's a serious flaw with this approach. The only problem that I have with all this is that Mike had a chance to say that he wasn't issuing a direct threat, but didn't. Mike, was that an oversight?

Once it's recognized how expensive it is to run the appropriate battery of tests, I think interest will wane.

[Mike M]

You say that the consumer has access to all the information? COA's performed by Chinese manufacturers are mostly likely to be inaccurate (due to the conflict of interest) and can at worst be seen as being fraudulent.

What do you know about manufacturing? Being honest? You might have a lot of experience, but I'm just curious. Do you know what happened in china prior to the Olympics? That entire country got gutted. One of the many reasons a lot of sites had massive backorders on various ingredients. There WERE a ton of crap shops over in china. People just sending emails and getting random quotes of materials. Look at threads on this board. People posting, even Iso himself, about these incredible quotes of low prices on materials. Some of these are 1/3 of what I pay. I make almost no money on Oxi/Pram on my site. I pay what most would say, is a high price. There is a vendor that sells his material for Pram for less than I pay for it. The supplier I'm dealing with I've done business with for 7 years and the company he works for has a major factory in china. They aren't a broker, they are the manufacture. Not everything that comes out of china is crap. They now have true ISO/GMP standards being implemented over there. Regulation within china is TOTALLY different than it was 3 years ago. That's why the industry got spun on its head. I don't chase the cheapest supplier. I know the issues that come up with bad quality, not interested in that.

Obviously though, you know your law well. You've probably somehow covered yourself from litigation brought from a consumer adversely affected by your product, that or the laws in America, of which I am unfamiliar, allow you to do what you are doing.

What are you talking about? I was YOU a few years ago. Go to bodybuilding.com, search the user name 1fast400. Look for probably the longest thread in history about myself and protein factory. When I owned 1fast400/bulknutrition.com I used to test everyone's product and post the results. You talk about pissing people off in the industry. THAT is why I was getting sued. So yes, I was brought up to date on the laws of testing, chain of custody and everything else REAL quick. It cost me a freaking fortune. I had to shut down labelclaimstesting.com because of it. They made me pull countless tests that I had done. I've been far from protected from litigation. I've spent a fortune defending myself against larger companies.

Given the way you have conducted yourself during this discussion, and the slimy way you have attempted to slip out of every accusation, lambasted those who rightfully challenged you and perhaps used shills as backup, my advice to your customers is to consider purchasing from you very carefully and to ask themselves if whether the potential long-term risk to their health is worth the very subtle, sometimes non-existent, payoff of the racetams.

Slimy? I said my guy made a shipping error and I did everything I could to fix it. People mentioned testing of products, not just mine and I pointed out something you might want to look at. You don't have to trust me, go search good for chain of custody lawsuits, read for yourself. Consumers have the right to buy from whoever they want. I'm more forthcoming than any other vendor you have on here. I'm doing eveything I can to make the customers happy, yet for people like you, it will never be enough. There is nothing I could do to make you happy. Some people are just that way. Show me where I've been challeneged and acted in a bad way. You now claim I used shills with NO proof. I told you to use ISP checks. I have no idea how I can prove that I have no idea who those people are. Of course, I guess you wouldn't look at the fedex tracking numbers I've posted as proof that packages have left my place and gotten delivered without issue. When it was claimed I was banned in canada.

You can't make everyone happy, you're a prime example of that.

[Ben]

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

I didn't see a threat of suit if we test. Mike was talking about what can happen in general when someone tests a companies products without proper chain of custody. A competitor could adulterate the product, then have it tested to make a company look bad. He's right. There's a serious flaw with this approach. The only problem that I have with all this is that Mike had a chance to say that he wasn't issuing a direct threat, but didn't. Mike, was that an oversight?

Once it's recognized how expensive it is to run the appropriate battery of tests, I think interest will wane.

There certainly was an implied threat, I'd go back over the discussion. He also acknowledges it in the second of his posts before this one of mine.

Hopefully the expense can be shared. As for adulteration, I personally will accept that there hasn't been any if a stat. dec. is signed and posted testifying as much (something which I am happy to do if it's me setting up the testing fund). I know that in Australia at least, you go to jail for lying on one of those.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 08 September 2009 - 01:49 PM.

[Mike M]

And now you're threatening legal action against us if we test your products.

I didn't see a threat of suit if we test. Mike was talking about what can happen in general when someone tests a companies products without proper chain of custody. A competitor could adulterate the product, then have it tested to make a company look bad. He's right. There's a serious flaw with this approach. The only problem that I have with all this is that Mike had a chance to say that he wasn't issuing a direct threat, but didn't. Mike, was that an oversight?

Once it's recognized how expensive it is to run the appropriate battery of tests, I think interest will wane.

You should talk with the vendors with whom you want to do testing with. That is the best thing you can do. You go an test some powder you have in your house, it comes back bad (whatever that means) and then you have a crap storm on your hand. Work with the vendor and have an open dicussion about it. Screaming, yelling and making threats isn't going to do anything but create tension. If people who have openly attacked me on this board for no reason, all of a sudden said my products were bad, when I have tests saying the opposite, yes I will defend my company. If there is NO proof that what was tested was my product, yes I have to protect my company. If your job and income were attacked, you would do the same.

There are proper ways to do this, so far, nobody is going about it that way. Everyone is wanting to be an internet cowboy hero instead of logically thinking this process through. Most people screaming their heads off understand every little about testing, very little about manufacturing and very little about china itself. The irony that so much focus is put on this ONE series of products, racetams, which every supplement powder in the industry comes from china is funny. Yet, you never see these types of posts in regards to those items. It's specific to racetam buyers. Not sure why that is. Just an interesting side fact.

If people would stop baseless attacks on me and attempt to talk like an adult and not claim all this false crap I'll be more than happy to work with you all. I'm literally laughing my butt off over the fact someone thinks I sent shills to come post on the board. I don't need shills. I've been open the entire time about everything.

[Ben]

You can't make everyone happy, you're a prime example of that.

I'm not asking to be made happy. I'm not asking for decent service. I don't want a smile, a thank-you and a box of gift wrapped chocolates with every order.

I'm asking to be reassured that your products are safe. It's fundamental and very basic.

In the meantime, I'll be buying the one nootrope that has been tested extensively here, a source that sells a pharmaceutical grade product made in Belgium (UCB Pharma). 1200mgx100 tablets at 13 USD. The shipping is reasonable too and my package arrive pretty quickly.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 08 September 2009 - 02:10 PM.

[Rational Madman]

You can't make everyone happy, you're a prime example of that.

I'm not asking to be made happy. I'm not asking for decent service. I don't want a smile, a thank-you and a box of gift wrapped chocolates with every order.

I'm asking to be reassured that your products are safe. It's fundamental and very basic.

If we choose to go forward with the testing, I think the results should be limited in distribution to contributors. That way, Mike, or other hypersensitive vendors, will not feel compelled to file a civil suit.

By threatening legal action, he has made a grave miscalculation. Potential and existing customers now have greater reason to doubt the quality of his products, because such a threat is not typical of proprietors secure with their merchandise.

Without our assistance, he has irreversibly damaged the reputation of his company. Do yourself a favor Mike, dispense with the scare tactics, and find a more effective advocate.

Edited by Rol82, 08 September 2009 - 02:56 PM.

[Mike M]

If we choose to go forward with the testing, I think the results should be limited in distribution contributors. That way, Mike, or other hypersensitive vendors, will not feel compelled to file a civil suit.

By threatening legal action, he has made a grave miscalculation. Potential and existing customers now have greater reason to doubt the quality of his products, because such a threat is not typical of proprietors secure with their merchandise.

Without our assistance, he has irreversibly damaged the reputation of his company. Do yourself a favor Mike, dispense with the scare tactics and find a more effective advocate.

Go to google, type in 1fast400 protein factory lawsuit. See the information that comes up. All I'm asking is if MY stuff is tested, I want a TRUE chain of custody followed to test it. All I'm asking for as a vendor is that it can be legally proved that what was shipped/tested is actually my product. I don't think that is too much to ask. You conumser feel as if you're the only people with rights, that's not the case, companies have them as well. If you can't see the flaws in just randomly sending a container of powder and claiming it to be something, not sure what to tell you.

How would I or anyone else know, that another vendor's product wasn't used? How do we know it wasn't tampered with? All I'm asking is that you follow the law in regards to how to do it. Test my stuff till your blue in the face. Just make sure you can legally prove it's MY stuff, that's all.

[Mike M]

I just spent 90 minutes on the phone chasing 100 different leads to finally get the office that has your package. The officer in charge of your package is out for the day (it's 330) and his manager has emailed him my cell phone to call me in the morning to find exactly why your package is still sitting there. All of this should be handled by tomorrow afternoon. I'll update as soon as I have more info.

[Mortuorum]

If we choose to go forward with the testing, I think the results should be limited in distribution contributors. That way, Mike, or other hypersensitive vendors, will not feel compelled to file a civil suit.

By threatening legal action, he has made a grave miscalculation. Potential and existing customers now have greater reason to doubt the quality of his products, because such a threat is not typical of proprietors secure with their merchandise.

Without our assistance, he has irreversibly damaged the reputation of his company. Do yourself a favor Mike, dispense with the scare tactics and find a more effective advocate.

Go to google, type in 1fast400 protein factory lawsuit. See the information that comes up. All I'm asking is if MY stuff is tested, I want a TRUE chain of custody followed to test it. All I'm asking for as a vendor is that it can be legally proved that what was shipped/tested is actually my product. I don't think that is too much to ask. You conumser feel as if you're the only people with rights, that's not the case, companies have them as well. If you can't see the flaws in just randomly sending a container of powder and claiming it to be something, not sure what to tell you.

How would I or anyone else know, that another vendor's product wasn't used? How do we know it wasn't tampered with? All I'm asking is that you follow the law in regards to how to do it. Test my stuff till your blue in the face. Just make sure you can legally prove it's MY stuff, that's all.

I more or less implicitly acknowledged in my elder postings that it is not only racetams manufactured in China, the bulk constituency of raw materials comprising nearly every major and "cutting edge" supplement producer entity's product is indeed derived from China as well (and in some instances India). Most of these manufacturers would never want you to know, for example, that theirs and nearly ALL of the NAC on the market is derived from duck and poultry feathers and this holds truthful for AOR, VRP, LEF, etc.! My concern is often more for the manner in which product and materials are handled and stored after they are produced in such countries (Mike, their regulations are far more lax than they are here in the US, and those are flawed, to say the least themselves, years ago the Clinton administration really helped industry de-regulate itself away from such responsibilities and things have continued to evolve in that direction even more deleteriously since then, alas, in China there are little to no regulatory standards upon environmental or safety conditions within these types of industrial environments and facilities, there is no EPA, no OSHA, etc., the place is REALLY polluted and toxic as well, you'd see if you've been there, it's frightening) that is wherein I believe is existent the most palpable threat of some type of exposure to a plethora of contaminants. Adequately testing the end resultant bottled/manufactured product is critical for the producer as well as the consumer for a variety of obvious legal as well as ethical rationale/motivation. I am honestly skeptical of ALL entities, not necessarily solely yours, I hardly feel completely safe and secure about anything I am assimilating food or supplement-wise from ANY entity I patronize (we cannot even consume our tap water anywhere, none of us, unless we are foolhardy!).

Does submitting a product for testing that is still manufacturer's "factory"-sealed bolster the credibility/legality/legitimacy factor of the independent consumer submission to test anything produced by anyone?

I am not directly, personally accusing you of anything nefarious or dishonest, this whole situation has become too cross-germinated by the disproportionately reactive tensions of another issue as is obvious. I must concede that, perusing the threads relative to the 1FAST400 Protein factory lawsuit you mentioned wherein you were involved as the catalyst in the controversial act of testing another manufacturer's product for purity, it casts a favorable light upon your integrity amidst this whole debacle.

Edited by Mortuorum, 08 September 2009 - 07:40 PM.

[Mike M]

Sounds like we went throught he same process. Customs isn't organized on a universal system. Having a case number and officer number can't be searched via customs. The only way you can find a package is to find the EXACT office it's in and then those numbers are worth something.

The officer has my number and I have the number of the exact office your package is at. I have it written down at work or I'd post it here. I'll send it over to you as soon as I get into work in the morning.

Mike

[Mike M]

All you have to do is call customs and pay the duties and taxes like every other customer and you'll get your package. They won't let me pay for it. I tried. They will only let you pay for it.

1-800-461-9999
NOTE K24# 2048137
OFFICER 11181

[Rational Madman]

All you have to do is call customs and pay the duties and taxes like every other customer and you'll get your package. They won't let me pay for it. I tried. They will only let you pay for it.

1-800-461-9999
NOTE K24# 2048137
OFFICER 11181

Perhaps you could send an amount equal to the cost of the duties and taxes to his Pay Pal account? In addition to this gesture, you could also refund a portion of the purchase price. Since you may very well have acted in accordance with the law, it is entirely up to you.

[Mike M]

I would have NO problem paying his duties and taxes. I've stated that before. I physically can't do anything more than I've done to this point. They will not let me pay. I'll gladly refund whatever he has to pay through paypal. No questions asked. He has no phone. They can't call him. So he HAS to call them. I can't make that happen. In the end, I expect him to not call, let the package be released and sent back to me and his money will be refunded. That's what I expect to happen. He only has 10 days left to claim the package I believe before it is sent back.

[Steve_86]

Gradually im gaining faith in smartpowders and I appreciate Mike's frequent forum activity.

I have a lot of old piracetam (some un-opened) from 1fast400/bulknutrition some of which is 1-2 years old and un-opened. I wonder if this is of lesser quality than the current stuff?

Isochroma:
Mike has done more than most other vendors would to help track down your package. I would be more appreciative.

Edited by Steve_86, 10 September 2009 - 11:53 AM.

[hamishm00]

This thread is lame.

[Mike M]

Just spoke to the officer in charge. The package is being RELEASED today. That should put it back in the system and you should have in 24-48h. The officer said there was no confusion over the invoice. He blamed the long weekend and them making sure this product was legal for consumer consumption.

[Mike M]

Fedex called and asked who was paying duties. I told them I would. The package has been released and is out for delivery.

Just so everyone can see: http://www.fedex.com...s...pe=ivother

[sirlordford]

Mike,

You have gone above and beyond with this order. I hope Iso recognizes the effort you have put into correcting the error. I have been buying supplements from you for at least six years and have never had a problem that you didn't fix to my satisfaction.

Grant Williams

[Vultures]

Remark from an unbiased person
2Iso: I think you owe Mike an apology.
2Mike: I'll order smth from you when I feel like a replenishment. I hope your parcel will pass Russian customs without *adventures*=)